Re: conf/138460: [patch] start local rc scripts in background

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	Re: conf/138460: [patch] start local rc scripts in background by linimon :: Rate this Message: Reply to Author \| View Threaded \| Show Only this Message Synopsis: [patch] start local rc scripts in background Responsible-Changed-From-To: freebsd-bugs->freebsd-rc Responsible-Changed-By: linimon Responsible-Changed-When: Wed Sep 2 09:32:51 UTC 2009 Responsible-Changed-Why: Over to maintainer(s). http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=138460 _______________________________________________ freebsd-rc@... mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-rc To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-rc-unsubscribe@..."
	Re: conf/138460: [patch] start local rc scripts in background by Doug Barton :: Rate this Message: Reply to Author \| View Threaded \| Show Only this Message I object to this patch on at least 2 grounds. First the lack of BEFORE in a script does not mean that it is safe to background it. Some other script could easily depend on the service directly via REQUIRE, or (unfortunately) there could be indirect dependencies that are not properly labeled now because we've never needed to label them. Personally I actively discourage the use of BEFORE because I think it makes it harder to debug ordering problems although it is occasionally necessary. Second it is actually fairly common for locally installed scripts from the ports tree at least to depend on each other, and this is not a bug. The way to approach this would be to add a flag, probably in rc.conf, to indicate that it is safe to background a given service. Then rc.subr would have to grow support for this but that shouldn't be too hard. If you'd like to follow up in that regard you should send a message to freebsd-rc@.... Unless someone else really thinks this is a good idea I plan to close this PR. Doug -- This .signature sanitized for your protection _______________________________________________ freebsd-rc@... mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-rc To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-rc-unsubscribe@..."
	Re: conf/138460: [patch] start local rc scripts in background by Doug Barton :: Rate this Message: Reply to Author \| View Threaded \| Show Only this Message The following reply was made to PR conf/138460; it has been noted by GNATS. From: Doug Barton <dougb@...> To: bug-followup@..., villa.alberto@..., freebsd-rc@... Cc: Subject: Re: conf/138460: [patch] start local rc scripts in background Date: Wed, 02 Sep 2009 07:36:43 -0700 I object to this patch on at least 2 grounds. First the lack of BEFORE in a script does not mean that it is safe to background it. Some other script could easily depend on the service directly via REQUIRE, or (unfortunately) there could be indirect dependencies that are not properly labeled now because we've never needed to label them. Personally I actively discourage the use of BEFORE because I think it makes it harder to debug ordering problems although it is occasionally necessary. Second it is actually fairly common for locally installed scripts from the ports tree at least to depend on each other, and this is not a bug. The way to approach this would be to add a flag, probably in rc.conf, to indicate that it is safe to background a given service. Then rc.subr would have to grow support for this but that shouldn't be too hard. If you'd like to follow up in that regard you should send a message to freebsd-rc@.... Unless someone else really thinks this is a good idea I plan to close this PR. Doug -- This .signature sanitized for your protection _______________________________________________ freebsd-rc@... mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-rc To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-rc-unsubscribe@..."
	Re: conf/138460: [patch] start local rc scripts in background by Adrian Penisoara :: Rate this Message: Reply to Author \| View Threaded \| Show Only this Message Hi, On Wed, Sep 2, 2009 at 4:36 PM, Doug Barton <dougb@...> wrote: > I object to this patch on at least 2 grounds. First the lack of BEFORE > in a script does not mean that it is safe to background it. Some other > script could easily depend on the service directly via REQUIRE, or > (unfortunately) there could be indirect dependencies that are not > properly labeled now because we've never needed to label them. > Personally I actively discourage the use of BEFORE because I think it > makes it harder to debug ordering problems although it is occasionally > necessary. > > Second it is actually fairly common for locally installed scripts from > the ports tree at least to depend on each other, and this is not a bug. > > The way to approach this would be to add a flag, probably in rc.conf, > to indicate that it is safe to background a given service. Then > rc.subr would have to grow support for this but that shouldn't be too > hard. If you'd like to follow up in that regard you should send a > message to freebsd-rc@.... > > Unless someone else really thinks this is a good idea I plan to close > this PR. > > I think this idea has some (great ?) merit -- almost all modern OS'es are cutting down on boot times and we should be working on this too. It's true that it would take a lot more work than a simple few-lines patch to do it right, but it's worth working on it, at least personally I intend to work on this at one point [1]. [1] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/enterprisebsd/+spec/ebsd-rc.d-startup-fix Regards, Adrian Penisoara EnterpriseBSD _______________________________________________ freebsd-rc@... mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-rc To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-rc-unsubscribe@..."
	Re: conf/138460: [patch] start local rc scripts in background by Adrian Penisoara :: Rate this Message: Reply to Author \| View Threaded \| Show Only this Message Hi, Coming back to this... On Wed, Sep 2, 2009 at 4:36 PM, Doug Barton <dougb@...> wrote: > I object to this patch on at least 2 grounds. First the lack of BEFORE > in a script does not mean that it is safe to background it. Some other > script could easily depend on the service directly via REQUIRE, or > (unfortunately) there could be indirect dependencies that are not > properly labeled now because we've never needed to label them. > Personally I actively discourage the use of BEFORE because I think it > makes it harder to debug ordering problems although it is occasionally > necessary. > I agree REQUIRE should be used instead of BEFORE. But this still leaves the tricky lexicographical file name ordering in place... > > Second it is actually fairly common for locally installed scripts from > the ports tree at least to depend on each other, and this is not a bug. > > The way to approach this would be to add a flag, probably in rc.conf, > to indicate that it is safe to background a given service. Then > rc.subr would have to grow support for this but that shouldn't be too > hard. If you'd like to follow up in that regard you should send a > message to freebsd-rc@.... > How about ditching that flag and just determine from the (keyword) dependency ordering which services may be ran in parallel. Again, the presumption of lexicographical file name ordering may hinder this algorithm -- perhaps enforcing rc.subr keywords instead would solve this. Regards, Adrian Penisoara EnterpriseBSD _______________________________________________ freebsd-rc@... mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-rc To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-rc-unsubscribe@..."
	Re: conf/138460: [patch] start local rc scripts in background by Adrian Penisoara :: Rate this Message: Reply to Author \| View Threaded \| Show Only this Message The following reply was made to PR conf/138460; it has been noted by GNATS. From: Adrian Penisoara <ady@...> To: Doug Barton <dougb@...> Cc: bug-followup@..., villa.alberto@..., freebsd-rc@... Subject: Re: conf/138460: [patch] start local rc scripts in background Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2009 17:19:50 +0200 --0015174c35045cf71b047299cca0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Hi, On Wed, Sep 2, 2009 at 4:36 PM, Doug Barton <dougb@...> wrote: > I object to this patch on at least 2 grounds. First the lack of BEFORE > in a script does not mean that it is safe to background it. Some other > script could easily depend on the service directly via REQUIRE, or > (unfortunately) there could be indirect dependencies that are not > properly labeled now because we've never needed to label them. > Personally I actively discourage the use of BEFORE because I think it > makes it harder to debug ordering problems although it is occasionally > necessary. > > Second it is actually fairly common for locally installed scripts from > the ports tree at least to depend on each other, and this is not a bug. > > The way to approach this would be to add a flag, probably in rc.conf, > to indicate that it is safe to background a given service. Then > rc.subr would have to grow support for this but that shouldn't be too > hard. If you'd like to follow up in that regard you should send a > message to freebsd-rc@.... > > Unless someone else really thinks this is a good idea I plan to close > this PR. > > I think this idea has some (great ?) merit -- almost all modern OS'es are cutting down on boot times and we should be working on this too. It's true that it would take a lot more work than a simple few-lines patch to do it right, but it's worth working on it, at least personally I intend to work on this at one point [1]. [1] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/enterprisebsd/+spec/ebsd-rc.d-startup-fix Regards, Adrian Penisoara EnterpriseBSD --0015174c35045cf71b047299cca0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi,<div><br></div><div><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Sep 2, 2009 at 4:= 36 PM, Doug Barton <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:dougb@...= g">dougb@...</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_qu= ote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex= ;"> I object to this patch on at least 2 grounds. First the lack of BEFORE<br> in a script does not mean that it is safe to background it. Some other<br> script could easily depend on the service directly via REQUIRE, or<br> (unfortunately) there could be indirect dependencies that are not<br> properly labeled now because we've never needed to label them.<br> Personally I actively discourage the use of BEFORE because I think it<br> makes it harder to debug ordering problems although it is occasionally<br> necessary.<br> <br> Second it is actually fairly common for locally installed scripts from<br> the ports tree at least to depend on each other, and this is not a bug.<br> <br> The way to approach this would be to add a flag, probably in rc.conf,<br> to indicate that it is safe to background a given service. Then<br> rc.subr would have to grow support for this but that shouldn't be too<b= r> hard. If you'd like to follow up in that regard you should send a<br> message to <a href=3D"mailto:freebsd-rc@...">freebsd-rc@...= </a>.<br> <br> Unless someone else really thinks this is a good idea I plan to close<br> this PR.<br> <br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>=A0=A0I think this idea has some (grea= t ?) merit -- almost all modern OS'es are cutting down on boot times an= d we should be working on this too.</div><div>=A0=A0It's true that it w= ould take a lot more work than a simple few-lines patch to do it right, but= it's worth working on it, at least personally I intend to work on this= at one point [1].</div> <div><br></div><div>[1]=A0<a href=3D"https://blueprints.launchpad.net/enter= prisebsd/+spec/ebsd-rc.d-startup-fix">https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ente= rprisebsd/+spec/ebsd-rc.d-startup-fix</a></div><div><br></div><div>Regards,= </div> <div>Adrian Penisoara</div><div>EnterpriseBSD</div></div></div> --0015174c35045cf71b047299cca0-- _______________________________________________ freebsd-rc@... mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-rc To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-rc-unsubscribe@..."

	Re: conf/138460: [patch] start local rc scripts in background by linimon :: Rate this Message: Reply to Author \| View Threaded \| Show Only this Message Synopsis: [patch] start local rc scripts in background Responsible-Changed-From-To: freebsd-bugs->freebsd-rc Responsible-Changed-By: linimon Responsible-Changed-When: Wed Sep 2 09:32:51 UTC 2009 Responsible-Changed-Why: Over to maintainer(s). http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=138460 _______________________________________________ freebsd-rc@... mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-rc To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-rc-unsubscribe@..."
	Re: conf/138460: [patch] start local rc scripts in background by Doug Barton :: Rate this Message: Reply to Author \| View Threaded \| Show Only this Message I object to this patch on at least 2 grounds. First the lack of BEFORE in a script does not mean that it is safe to background it. Some other script could easily depend on the service directly via REQUIRE, or (unfortunately) there could be indirect dependencies that are not properly labeled now because we've never needed to label them. Personally I actively discourage the use of BEFORE because I think it makes it harder to debug ordering problems although it is occasionally necessary. Second it is actually fairly common for locally installed scripts from the ports tree at least to depend on each other, and this is not a bug. The way to approach this would be to add a flag, probably in rc.conf, to indicate that it is safe to background a given service. Then rc.subr would have to grow support for this but that shouldn't be too hard. If you'd like to follow up in that regard you should send a message to freebsd-rc@.... Unless someone else really thinks this is a good idea I plan to close this PR. Doug -- This .signature sanitized for your protection _______________________________________________ freebsd-rc@... mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-rc To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-rc-unsubscribe@..."
	Re: conf/138460: [patch] start local rc scripts in background by Doug Barton :: Rate this Message: Reply to Author \| View Threaded \| Show Only this Message The following reply was made to PR conf/138460; it has been noted by GNATS. From: Doug Barton <dougb@...> To: bug-followup@..., villa.alberto@..., freebsd-rc@... Cc: Subject: Re: conf/138460: [patch] start local rc scripts in background Date: Wed, 02 Sep 2009 07:36:43 -0700 I object to this patch on at least 2 grounds. First the lack of BEFORE in a script does not mean that it is safe to background it. Some other script could easily depend on the service directly via REQUIRE, or (unfortunately) there could be indirect dependencies that are not properly labeled now because we've never needed to label them. Personally I actively discourage the use of BEFORE because I think it makes it harder to debug ordering problems although it is occasionally necessary. Second it is actually fairly common for locally installed scripts from the ports tree at least to depend on each other, and this is not a bug. The way to approach this would be to add a flag, probably in rc.conf, to indicate that it is safe to background a given service. Then rc.subr would have to grow support for this but that shouldn't be too hard. If you'd like to follow up in that regard you should send a message to freebsd-rc@.... Unless someone else really thinks this is a good idea I plan to close this PR. Doug -- This .signature sanitized for your protection _______________________________________________ freebsd-rc@... mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-rc To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-rc-unsubscribe@..."
	Re: conf/138460: [patch] start local rc scripts in background by Adrian Penisoara :: Rate this Message: Reply to Author \| View Threaded \| Show Only this Message Hi, On Wed, Sep 2, 2009 at 4:36 PM, Doug Barton <dougb@...> wrote: > I object to this patch on at least 2 grounds. First the lack of BEFORE > in a script does not mean that it is safe to background it. Some other > script could easily depend on the service directly via REQUIRE, or > (unfortunately) there could be indirect dependencies that are not > properly labeled now because we've never needed to label them. > Personally I actively discourage the use of BEFORE because I think it > makes it harder to debug ordering problems although it is occasionally > necessary. > > Second it is actually fairly common for locally installed scripts from > the ports tree at least to depend on each other, and this is not a bug. > > The way to approach this would be to add a flag, probably in rc.conf, > to indicate that it is safe to background a given service. Then > rc.subr would have to grow support for this but that shouldn't be too > hard. If you'd like to follow up in that regard you should send a > message to freebsd-rc@.... > > Unless someone else really thinks this is a good idea I plan to close > this PR. > > I think this idea has some (great ?) merit -- almost all modern OS'es are cutting down on boot times and we should be working on this too. It's true that it would take a lot more work than a simple few-lines patch to do it right, but it's worth working on it, at least personally I intend to work on this at one point [1]. [1] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/enterprisebsd/+spec/ebsd-rc.d-startup-fix Regards, Adrian Penisoara EnterpriseBSD _______________________________________________ freebsd-rc@... mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-rc To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-rc-unsubscribe@..."
	Re: conf/138460: [patch] start local rc scripts in background by Adrian Penisoara :: Rate this Message: Reply to Author \| View Threaded \| Show Only this Message Hi, Coming back to this... On Wed, Sep 2, 2009 at 4:36 PM, Doug Barton <dougb@...> wrote: > I object to this patch on at least 2 grounds. First the lack of BEFORE > in a script does not mean that it is safe to background it. Some other > script could easily depend on the service directly via REQUIRE, or > (unfortunately) there could be indirect dependencies that are not > properly labeled now because we've never needed to label them. > Personally I actively discourage the use of BEFORE because I think it > makes it harder to debug ordering problems although it is occasionally > necessary. > I agree REQUIRE should be used instead of BEFORE. But this still leaves the tricky lexicographical file name ordering in place... > > Second it is actually fairly common for locally installed scripts from > the ports tree at least to depend on each other, and this is not a bug. > > The way to approach this would be to add a flag, probably in rc.conf, > to indicate that it is safe to background a given service. Then > rc.subr would have to grow support for this but that shouldn't be too > hard. If you'd like to follow up in that regard you should send a > message to freebsd-rc@.... > How about ditching that flag and just determine from the (keyword) dependency ordering which services may be ran in parallel. Again, the presumption of lexicographical file name ordering may hinder this algorithm -- perhaps enforcing rc.subr keywords instead would solve this. Regards, Adrian Penisoara EnterpriseBSD _______________________________________________ freebsd-rc@... mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-rc To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-rc-unsubscribe@..."
	Re: conf/138460: [patch] start local rc scripts in background by Adrian Penisoara :: Rate this Message: Reply to Author \| View Threaded \| Show Only this Message The following reply was made to PR conf/138460; it has been noted by GNATS. From: Adrian Penisoara <ady@...> To: Doug Barton <dougb@...> Cc: bug-followup@..., villa.alberto@..., freebsd-rc@... Subject: Re: conf/138460: [patch] start local rc scripts in background Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2009 17:19:50 +0200 --0015174c35045cf71b047299cca0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Hi, On Wed, Sep 2, 2009 at 4:36 PM, Doug Barton <dougb@...> wrote: > I object to this patch on at least 2 grounds. First the lack of BEFORE > in a script does not mean that it is safe to background it. Some other > script could easily depend on the service directly via REQUIRE, or > (unfortunately) there could be indirect dependencies that are not > properly labeled now because we've never needed to label them. > Personally I actively discourage the use of BEFORE because I think it > makes it harder to debug ordering problems although it is occasionally > necessary. > > Second it is actually fairly common for locally installed scripts from > the ports tree at least to depend on each other, and this is not a bug. > > The way to approach this would be to add a flag, probably in rc.conf, > to indicate that it is safe to background a given service. Then > rc.subr would have to grow support for this but that shouldn't be too > hard. If you'd like to follow up in that regard you should send a > message to freebsd-rc@.... > > Unless someone else really thinks this is a good idea I plan to close > this PR. > > I think this idea has some (great ?) merit -- almost all modern OS'es are cutting down on boot times and we should be working on this too. It's true that it would take a lot more work than a simple few-lines patch to do it right, but it's worth working on it, at least personally I intend to work on this at one point [1]. [1] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/enterprisebsd/+spec/ebsd-rc.d-startup-fix Regards, Adrian Penisoara EnterpriseBSD --0015174c35045cf71b047299cca0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi,<div><br></div><div><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Sep 2, 2009 at 4:= 36 PM, Doug Barton <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:dougb@...= g">dougb@...</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_qu= ote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex= ;"> I object to this patch on at least 2 grounds. First the lack of BEFORE<br> in a script does not mean that it is safe to background it. Some other<br> script could easily depend on the service directly via REQUIRE, or<br> (unfortunately) there could be indirect dependencies that are not<br> properly labeled now because we've never needed to label them.<br> Personally I actively discourage the use of BEFORE because I think it<br> makes it harder to debug ordering problems although it is occasionally<br> necessary.<br> <br> Second it is actually fairly common for locally installed scripts from<br> the ports tree at least to depend on each other, and this is not a bug.<br> <br> The way to approach this would be to add a flag, probably in rc.conf,<br> to indicate that it is safe to background a given service. Then<br> rc.subr would have to grow support for this but that shouldn't be too<b= r> hard. If you'd like to follow up in that regard you should send a<br> message to <a href=3D"mailto:freebsd-rc@...">freebsd-rc@...= </a>.<br> <br> Unless someone else really thinks this is a good idea I plan to close<br> this PR.<br> <br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>=A0=A0I think this idea has some (grea= t ?) merit -- almost all modern OS'es are cutting down on boot times an= d we should be working on this too.</div><div>=A0=A0It's true that it w= ould take a lot more work than a simple few-lines patch to do it right, but= it's worth working on it, at least personally I intend to work on this= at one point [1].</div> <div><br></div><div>[1]=A0<a href=3D"https://blueprints.launchpad.net/enter= prisebsd/+spec/ebsd-rc.d-startup-fix">https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ente= rprisebsd/+spec/ebsd-rc.d-startup-fix</a></div><div><br></div><div>Regards,= </div> <div>Adrian Penisoara</div><div>EnterpriseBSD</div></div></div> --0015174c35045cf71b047299cca0-- _______________________________________________ freebsd-rc@... mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-rc To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-rc-unsubscribe@..."