Real men don't attack straw men

[overdrive openbsd]

Now the answer is...

Stallman, why did you start this thread? It is totaly absurd, it does
not make any sense...

Borja Tarraso

Marc Balmer wrote:
> Richard,
>
> while we do provide a free operating system,
> http://www.gnu.org/software/for-windows.html
> makes it total clear that you are a hypocrite and a liar.
>
> (while others promise the moon, we deliver.)
>
> - Marc

[Rui Miguel Silva Seabra]

On Thu, Dec 13, 2007 at 12:59:27PM -0700, Theo de Raadt wrote:

> > Richard, you are a total hypocrite.  You are in here creating a fuss about
> > our software, saying it is non-free, when you are doing exactly the same
> > thing yourself.
>
> Please see
>
>        http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/windows/faq2.html
>
> And
>
>         ftp://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/emacs/windows/
>
> What's that, there?

Free Software.

> Emacs *binaries* for *Windows*
> Supplied right by Richard's http and ftp mirrors.

Yes, Emacs for people who aren't as fortunate as you or I am.

> Richard, I may be unfriendly, but you are a lying hypocritical
> asshole.

I believe Richard might have been misinformed about ports, while you...
... should know better.

It's the difference between helping people run more Free Software vs
spreading proprietary software.

Talking about "lies", or "hypocrisy" is nothing more than petty insulting.

Rui

--
All Hail Discordia!
Today is Boomtime, the 55th day of The Aftermath in the YOLD 3173
+ No matter how much you do, you never do enough -- unknown
+ Whatever you do will be insignificant,
| but it is very important that you do it -- Gandhi
+ So let's do it...?

[Rui Miguel Silva Seabra]

On Thu, Dec 13, 2007 at 09:30:28PM +0100, Marc Balmer wrote:
> while we do provide a free operating system,
> http://www.gnu.org/software/for-windows.html
> makes it total clear that you are a hypocrite and a liar.

And makes it total clear that you are the hypocrite and a liar.

Choice quotes from that page:

        Microsoft Windows is a clear and instructive example of non-free
        software.

        Using free software on Microsoft Windows (or any non-free
        operating system) is the first step towards freedom, but it does
        not get you all the way there.

        So the next step is to replace Windows with a free operating
        system such as GNU/Linux[1].

        However, on this page we're concerned with the first step.

[1] Now I see why you have such animosity towards this page...

--
P'tang!
Today is Boomtime, the 55th day of The Aftermath in the YOLD 3173
+ No matter how much you do, you never do enough -- unknown
+ Whatever you do will be insignificant,
| but it is very important that you do it -- Gandhi
+ So let's do it...?

[Rod Whitworth-3]

On Thu, 13 Dec 2007 21:30:28 +0100, Marc Balmer wrote:

>Richard,
>
>while we do provide a free operating system,
>http://www.gnu.org/software/for-windows.html
>makes it total clear that you are a hypocrite and a liar.
>
>(while others promise the moon, we deliver.)
>
>- Marc
>

Ooooh! That one is <particularly> ironic in this thread.

It RECOMMENDS free software to replace unfree but then includes VLC
player that does MP3 which somebody tells me is patent encumbered.



Rod/
/earth: write failed, file system is full
cp: /earth/creatures: No space left on device

[Jacob Yocom-Piatt-2]

perhaps using pcc as a gcc replacement in openbsd doesn't settle well
with rms and this is all a smokescreen?

this was someone else's suggestion and they will remain unnamed.

--

[Tom Rosso]

On Dec 13, 2007 12:30 PM, bofh <goodb0fh@...> wrote:

> But - seriously, as a project, do we need the validation from
> FSF/Richard?
>

This is a topic I would like covered.  If we were to decide to adhere to
Richard's requirements for inclusion on his free software list, what are the
benefits, and is it worth the effort?

[Aaron Glenn]

On Dec 13, 2007 11:59 AM, Theo de Raadt <deraadt@...> wrote:

> > Richard, you are a total hypocrite.  You are in here creating a fuss about
> > our software, saying it is non-free, when you are doing exactly the same
> > thing yourself.
>
> Please see
>
>        http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/windows/faq2.html
>
> And
>
>         ftp://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/emacs/windows/
>
> What's that, there?
>
> Emacs *binaries* for *Windows*
>
> Supplied right by Richard's http and ftp mirrors.
>
> Richard, I may be unfriendly, but you are a lying hypocritical
> asshole.

this pretty much sums up everything. can we all stop now? (-:

aaron.glenn

[Matthew Dempsky-3]

On 12/13/07, Marco Peereboom <slash@...> wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 13, 2007 at 11:51:37AM -0500, Richard Stallman wrote:
> > If such an issue arises for a GNU package, and people think it is not
> > doing the most useful thing, I will look at the issue and then if
> > necessary discuss it with the developers.
>
> Go talk to some of those wireless developers in Linux.  You'll find
> plenty examples of unethical behavior and blatant breaking the law.

The Linux kernel is not a GNU package any more than Xorg is an OpenBSD package.

[Paul de Weerd]

On Tue, Dec 11, 2007 at 06:56:57PM -0500, Richard Stallman wrote:
| I don't recommend Torvalds' version of Linux.  The versions of Linux
| in Ututo and gNewSense, which I recommend, do not have the blobs.

Interesting, these linux distributions. They seem to be pretty new,
what did you recommend before these came onto the scene ? None of
these seemed to exist 8 years ago.

A free and usable operating system was already well available back
then, and it still is today : OpenBSD.

|     > However, its ports
|     > system does suggest non-free programs,
|
|     No it doesn't "suggest" non-free programs in any way;
|     it just makes it possible and easy to install them.
|
| Including a program by name in the ports system does suggest using
| that program.  It grants the program a sort of legitimacy, and that
| is what I am opposed to.

Including source- and header files for non-free OS'es in the
distribution of gcc and emacs does suggest using gcc and/or emacs on
these non-free OS'es. It grants these non-free OS'es a sort of
legitimacy, something you say you are opposed to.

| You may have a different interpretation of these facts.
| That's my interpretation of them.

I would have to agree with you that, in your interpretation and your
definition, the ports tree (which is not recommended, by the way, a
point you've carefully chosen to ignore but OpenBSD developers suggest
people to use binary packages which (to the best of my knowledge) all
come with source available under permissive licenses) does facilitate
the use of non-free software on an otherwise free operating system,
which, according to your views and definitions is "not good".

You are, however, being asked to explain how you combine these views
with the support for several non-free OS'es within the copyleft
software packages of emacs and gcc. By providing binaries for (for
example) the Windows family of operating systems on your web and/or
ftp servers (and I say 'your' to mean the servers of the foundation
you appear to represent, the FSF), you seem to go fully against your
recommendation of people to use free software.

Ironically enough, providing the users of non free operating systems
with free software encourages them to keep using their non-free
software and thereby promotes the use of non-free software. How is
that for ethics ?

On the other hand, providing users of a free operating system (which
already provides users the ability to install and use non-free
software, as you've so eloquently pointed out) with an easy interface
to install *AND REMOVE* non-free software, might actually encourage
them to investigate other, free, alternatives to the non-free software
they sought to use. As has been said before, the ports tree is just a
scaffold, used to force third party programs (be they free or non-free
and for whatever value of freedom you wish) to install into a sane and
known location within the filesystem, easing the task of installing
and uninstalling said program. This, in no way, encourages or promotes
the use of said software (free or non-free).

Truly, OpenBSD is the most free operating system available to the
public at large today. If your system happens to contain an NVidia
videocard and you run any linux variant (including gNewSense), you
will be able to find, download and install the non-free binary blob
that allows using the advanced accelerated 3d features of this piece
of hardware. Some other BSD's also allow these to be used. OpenBSD
makes it virtually impossible to use such blobs. It is the ONLY OS (at
least to my knowledge, and I do try to stay informed on this
particular topic) that actively approaches hardware vendors to ask for
open and free (of NDA's) documentation so drivers can be written to
support that hardware, the only one to take a firm stance AGAINST
binary blobs and take positive action where other systems happily
accept loadable modules to support their hardware (as the linux kernel
in gNewSense and Ututo).

There's a whole community of people who take very great care of using
free software out here and who are well aware of the rights (and
duties) that free software brings to the user. Your remarks are
considered out of place and even offensive by some who put very much
effort into creating a truly free operating system. I've been using
"free unix-like systems" for well over a decade now and after some
years of trying I've found the only system that is truly free and
actively fights for the freedoms it gives to its users is OpenBSD.

Really, you ought to look in to it some time.

Cheers,

Paul 'WEiRD' de Weerd

--
>++++++++[<++++++++++>-]<+++++++.>+++[<------>-]<.>+++[<+
+++++++++++>-]<.>++[<------------>-]<+.--------------.[-]
                 http://www.weirdnet.nl/                 

[StrongBad]

Borja Tarraso wrote:
>
> Stallman, why did you start this thread? It is totaly absurd, it does
> not make any sense...
>
Sounds like the first three lines for Ty's next song!

Stallman, why did you start this thread?
It is totaly absurd,
It does not make any sense
OpenBSD is as free as the wind
Take that out with you
On the Gnu on which you rode in ...

Etc.

--
Jack J. Woehr
Director of Development
Absolute Performance, Inc.
jwoehr@...
303-443-7000 ext. 527

[guilt]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Hi,

This is what I felt; All comments are welcome.

If both parties were at fault for somehow giving the user the wrong
idea that flash player is great on BSD OR windows is great coz it runs
emacs, is this the right way to settle it?

The honest way is to removing these Makefiles/binaries wherever (if
you really want to encourage free software).
The wicked way is to keep these at the expense of popularity but not
complain about it.
The worst way is to fight about it.

Now if one of you didn't do what the other said, that one would be the
bad guy. But if both of you decided to keep these things as they are,
both would be against free software.

Which one would you rather be?
Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iD8DBQFHYb5TRzTnZfDdIE8RAiE2AJwOkj2Jl9Ls/t9cIdTgoxJ0W4M8OwCfcCGP
9IKozlMUHm4u5N4LI2UYdTs=
=pSrc
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

[Darrin Chandler]

On Thu, Dec 13, 2007 at 10:09:21PM +0000, Rui Miguel Silva Seabra wrote:

> > Emacs *binaries* for *Windows*
> > Supplied right by Richard's http and ftp mirrors.
>
> Yes, Emacs for people who aren't as fortunate as you or I am.
>
> > Richard, I may be unfriendly, but you are a lying hypocritical
> > asshole.
>
> I believe Richard might have been misinformed about ports, while you...
> ... should know better.
>
> It's the difference between helping people run more Free Software vs
> spreading proprietary software.
>
> Talking about "lies", or "hypocrisy" is nothing more than petty insulting.

This is directly enabling people to continue using non-free software
while feeling good about it (if they don't think too hard).

--
Darrin Chandler            |  Phoenix BSD User Group  |  MetaBUG
dwchandler@...   |  http://phxbug.org/      |  http://metabug.org/
http://www.stilyagin.com/  |  Daemons in the Desert   |  Global BUG Federation

[alicornio]

2007/12/13, Gregg Reynolds <dev@...>:

>
> On 12/13/07, Theo de Raadt <deraadt@...> wrote:
>
> > Please see
> >
> >        http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/windows/faq2.html
> >
> > And
> >
> >         ftp://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/emacs/windows/
> >
>
> Not to mention:
>
>   http://directory.fsf.org/project/reactOS/ - "ReactOS is a project to
> create a free operating system that is compatible with Windows NT so
> users can have access to a free operating system but still run their
> favorite Windows PC programs and drivers."
>
>   http://directory.fsf.org/project/Windows32API/ - "It is a set of
> header files and import libraries that can be used by GNU tools for
> compiling and linking programs to be run under operating systems
> supporting the Win32 Application Programming Interface. "
>
>   http://directory.fsf.org/project/gtmess/ - "gtmess is a console MSN
> Messenger client for GNU/Linux and other systems that conform to the
> POSIX standard. It supports the MSNP9 protocol version."
>
>   http://directory.fsf.org/project/macssh/ "...This is a Macintosh
> version for SSH."
>
>   http://directory.fsf.org/project/djgpp/ "Complete 32-bit C/C++
> development system for Intel 80386 (and higher) PCs running DOS."
>
> Etc. etc. etc. - it's all over the place.  If the cygwin stuff (dunno
> if it is or not) is merged into the main source repository, then we
> can assume that virtually every piece of GNU code has been designed to
> work with windows, so it can't be recommended.  Thus does the
> revolution devour its children.
>
> Given the plain weirdness of the arguments "Richard Stallman" has been
> making, maybe we should consider the possibility that we've been had
> by an impostor trying to get a rise out of the OBSD crowd. ;)  If not,
> then the interesting question is, why is he doing this, really?  All
> the pronouncements about freedom, and the Important Life Lessons about
> how mentioning a thing is tantamount to endorsing it - it just doesn't
> add up, it's too silly.  I wonder what the real agenda is.
>
> -gregg

Mr. Stallman you are nude, please stop.

[guilt]

Hey, we could all use the same arguments and call OpenBSD hypocritical:

say no to blobs (it's even on the nvidia-wallpaper!) but say yes to
libflashplayer.so (which is of course secure because it's obscure, but
more than that it's a necessity for so many users which makes it
ethical to use it anyway) => maybe this will be the next misc@ thread

So who's the hypocrite huh? These spats will never end.

And for those who didn't notice, rms takes about a day to respond to
his emails; So please don't scream if you don't get a timely reply.

Karthik

[Jason Beaudoin]

<snip>

> If OpenBSD's port tree would be stated to contain only (pointers to) free
> software, that is the current port tree would be split into a free port
> tree in the distribution and a non-free tree to download from some
> other site ready to drop into the free port tree. Then the distribution
> would be Stallman-kosher. With a not too huge effort.

nope. From what I am interpreting, the OS should not (in any way)
recommend non-free software. Recommendations would be in the form of
acknowledging (in any way) how to install/use non-free software on the
OS.

>
> If then the installation pages would have links to and explanation
> about the non-free part of the port tree, I do not know if that
> would render the whole distribution non-Stallman-kosher.
>

yes. again, from how I have interpreted his (distorted and often
twisted) writings.

>
> But if there is enough benefit for OpenBSD to be on Stallman's list
> of free operating systems, to do such a change, that is a
> completely different question.
>

personally.. I could care less about what he promotes and what he
doesn't.. and if individuals can't see through his garbage, that's too
bad. Stallman's influence, one way or the other, won't be stopping
OpenBSD's efforts.. not as I see it.



Regards,

~J

[Rod Whitworth-3]

On Thu, 13 Dec 2007 22:15:08 +0000, Rui Miguel Silva Seabra wrote:

>On Thu, Dec 13, 2007 at 09:30:28PM +0100, Marc Balmer wrote:
>> while we do provide a free operating system,
>> http://www.gnu.org/software/for-windows.html
>> makes it total clear that you are a hypocrite and a liar.
>
>And makes it total clear that you are the hypocrite and a liar.

Hmmmm. This one is from rms@somewhere and another is from rms@...
Doppelganger?

Maybe they should be careful that they are not Titans. I remember
another rms - the RMS Titanic. Sank without trace never to surface
again after meeting a superior force due to incompetence on the part of
the designers and captain.

Normally I wouldn't promote a site like
http://www.chartcourse.com/articletitanic.htm but reading that page in
this context is hilarious.

Rod/
/earth: write failed, file system is full
cp: /earth/creatures: No space left on device

[Whyzzi]

[troll]

WARNING: Thread Parody.

Original: "Keanu Sausage"

skit from the episode "Operation: Rich in Spirit"

"Operation: Rich in Spirit" is the sevententh episode of
season one of the television comedy series Robot Chicken.

To see the original, simply google for
"robot chicken keanu" and you will find it in adobe flash 9 format.

Unfortunately for many openbsd users, I am uncertain how to find
a copy of the skit in any other format. Hopefully I put enough text
in to describe some of the visual elements required enough for the
imagination.

(c) 2007 by whyzzi@.... All rights reserved. Any similarity to
persons real or imaginary in this article is coincidental -- or
written for entertainment or parodic purposes only.

Enjoy.

/ //////////////////////////////////////

Richard M. Stallman stands dressed in a matrix style black pants, black
t-shirt, black shades and a black leather overcoat. Approaching him on his
left side is Bill Gates of Microsoft dressed in grey khaki's and white
t-shirt with the windows vista logo on it.

"My name is Richard M. Stallman, and I'm going to beat you, Bill Gates."

*CRUNCH* A solid punch, right in the gut. Bill collapses.

From his right side approaches Linus Torvalds, wearing grey khaki's and
a white t-shirt with the linux penguin on it.

"My name is R. M. S., and I'm going to defeat you, Linus Torvalds."

*WHACK* A well executed kick directly into the chin. Linus falls.

From the right side now enters Theo de Raadt, wearing blue jeans with the
blue T-Shirt and the anime style of OpenBSD release 2.8 puffy fish on
the front.

"I'm the guy for the 'Free Software Movement', and I'm going to stop you,
 lead programmer for the Open B-S-D Project - Theo De Raadt."

*CRACK* Richard jumps from the ground, rebounds off the wall and connects a
kick to the back Theo's head. Theo falls face first into the concrete.

/ director in the background yells "Cut" /
/ stage production bell rings /

Camera shifts, clearly now you can see a production area of a set. Richard
removes the shades.

"Hi. As you already know my name is Richard M. Stallman. I've beaten
 the words 'Free Software' to death, and now I'm going to beat the
 words 'Free Software' into you."

"It's amazing! Don't believe me? Just listen to these 'Free Software' fans!"


Cut scene to 'Jeremy Allison', one of the Samba Project Leaders. He's having
breakfast, infront of him is some pancakes, some fruit, and Keanu Sausage.

Jeremy says in a fake Christopher Walken voice.

"Oh.. hello... I did not notice you... there. I'ma fan. Of 'Free Software'.
 I like Richard's .. 'idealism'.... THE BEST. To program!"


Cut scene to 'Eben Moglen' of the SugarCRM project fame, on a ranch. Hopping
around on fence post to fence post, in tan leather chaps, jeans, a plaid
shirt and cowboy hat. He's carrying a sausage on one of those camping
"hot dog" forks.

"It fits so ... perfectly. I can't write a program using anyone else's vision
 of ... "Free Software" ... in my license. That's where ... Richard ..
comes in."


Cut scene again, this time with Richard Stallman sitting infront of a
computer, scrolling through some text on a screen. Holding a box of
Keanu sausage.

"Woah! That's a good license."

Richard smiles. A shine reflects off of his teeth.

// end
/ ///////////////////////////////////////////////////

Note: Jeremy and Eben were chosen because their projects were quickly
linked to gpl v3 via google's first page. No other reason than that.
Again, the above is written for parody and entertainment purposes
only. No offence should be inferred from this parody as none is
intended.

"Move along, nothing to see here"
[/troll]

[Marco Peereboom]

$ uname -a                                                                                                                                                    
OpenBSD moobile.peereboom.us 4.2 GENERIC#7 i386
$ locate libflashplayer.so
$

what the fuck are you talking about?

On Fri, Dec 14, 2007 at 05:02:45AM +0530, Karthik Kumar wrote:

> Hey, we could all use the same arguments and call OpenBSD hypocritical:
>
> say no to blobs (it's even on the nvidia-wallpaper!) but say yes to
> libflashplayer.so (which is of course secure because it's obscure, but
> more than that it's a necessity for so many users which makes it
> ethical to use it anyway) => maybe this will be the next misc@ thread
>
> So who's the hypocrite huh? These spats will never end.
>
> And for those who didn't notice, rms takes about a day to respond to
> his emails; So please don't scream if you don't get a timely reply.
>
> Karthik

[Marco Peereboom]

On Thu, Dec 13, 2007 at 03:50:39PM -0700, Tom Rosso wrote:

> On Dec 13, 2007 12:30 PM, bofh <goodb0fh@...> wrote:
>
> > But - seriously, as a project, do we need the validation from
> > FSF/Richard?
> >
>
> This is a topic I would like covered.  If we were to decide to adhere to
> Richard's requirements for inclusion on his free software list, what are the
> benefits, and is it worth the effort?
>

None.  His recommendation is worthless.

The effort would be minimal but who gives a damn about his little list?

[marina-25]

Someone already mentioned Hitler.

Can we let this thread die.


--- Marina Brown