Realtime Usage Mode (Host interaction with Csound)

[Steven Yi]

Hi All,

(I'm crossposting to the blue users list so that they know what I'm up
to, but would ask if they have technical comments to respond on the
csound-devel list as it concerns Csound API usage, and other
developers using the API may have the same interests)

I was working on some music tonight with blue and had a MIDI keyboard
hooked up and was trying to come up with ways to improve my composing
experience.  I think ideally I'd like to be able to get to do things
that are commonly found in MIDI-based environments, and am breaking it
down in the following:

-Audio Engine is always-on
-User can turn on or off the playback of the project; the program will
send events to the ongoing instruments and effects that are feeding
audio to the audio engine
-All recorded events and event data is held in the host, host sends
the data to the engine
-Live events are sent to the host, host sends data to the engine

For blue/csound, I am thinking:

-blue leaves bare orchestra running in csound engine, no note events whatsoever
-blue will hold copies of all note data, when play is pressed, blue
will, in sync with csound engine, send notes to the csound engine via
API
-blue will intercept MIDI events, map according to rules given by
user, and send notes to csound engine via API
-if instrument/effects change or topology of signal graph changes,
user intervention required for engine restart

To achieve this I think blue needs a way to keep the engine always-on.
Also, I think a method to turn all notes off will be necessary, so
blue can feed notes, but if the user in blue decides to move the
playback head or stop the score, blue can send the all notes off and
csound can clear the notes that are queued up on it side.  blue then
would have to have it's own event list that is ticking along with
csound's (not too bad as blue is already calling csound's
performKsmps, and in the loop in blue it can add its own ticking of
its event list). I think because some instruments need to stay always
on, I would need to find a way to turn off all notes for all
instruments except those instruments which I would mark as always-on.

For the concern of live events, there are a couple approaches I'm thinking of:

-blue intercepts MIDI and simply relays to Csound.  This actually
seems rather easy using the API callbacks for MIDI input and output.
-blue intercepts MIDI and maps data, then sends standard Csound SCO to
Csound.  This seems much more powerful, as users can map MIDI notes to
other values via Scala scales, send amp data mapped in different
numerical ranges, or using an interface can modify in realtime what
other pfield values will be sent to the user (will use blue convention
of template notes as a foundation)

I think either way, there will be some need by the user to modify
their instruments to work either with MIDI or with SCO.  My thought is
that realtime SCO would be most flexible, and the basic note template
could be kept as part of the instrument definition to make that
portable (i.e. download an instrument from blueShare and have
immediate ability to just play it with MIDI keyboard without any other
work).

Now, I'm trying to sort out if this is all possible already or if
there's really anything that just isn't possible yet.  I'm sort of
thinking this through as I go along, so please bear with me:

-I could run the project with "f0 3600" and no other notes
-I could craft a "all notes off instrument" using turnoff2 that hits
all the instruments in my project that are not always-on (actually,
might be better to make an all-notes instrument that just worked on a
single instrument; if user then disables an instrument in blue all the
notes would get turned off for just that instrument, or if all notes
off is necssary, blue can send multiple notes with each of the
different instrument numbers as a pfield)

Is there anything I'm missing?  I figure the way to go about it is:

-Get host/API stuff setup to send notes in realtime vs. using csound's
internal SCO (these notes would be the "normal" notes)
-Work with MIDI note data and mapping that information, sending "realtime" notes
-Work with MIDI controller data, mapping to blue parameters, which
would automatically work as blue parameters map to Csound data via API
-Later allow for other inputs, i.e. OSC, user scripts, etc., which
starts to bring in more of blueLive and other compositional systems

I think this will probably be the next big evolution of blue/csound
interaction and will further build on the API integration that was
introduced with 0.124.0.  I think too that this would take it as far
one could go with csound's current design.  The next step after that
would introduce finer level of changing instruments in realtime (i.e.
insert/remove/reconnect opcodes) which is something we've talked about
here on the csound dev list before, but I think that is too much for
my brain to handle at the moment. =P

I'd appreciate any advice and thoughts people would have to give on
this.  I think just writing through this has already helped to figure
out the issues and possible solution going forward and I think I may
go ahead and start to experiment with this.

Thanks!
steven

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[Michael Bechard]

I am just concerned about performance and stability issues at this point. Judging from the activity on this list as of late regarding the latest real-time release, it doesn't sound like all the kinks have been worked out.

Michael Bechard



----- Original Message ----
From: Steven Yi <stevenyi@...>
To: Developer discussions <csound-devel@...>; blue users mailing list <bluemusic-users@...>
Sent: Monday, November 3, 2008 1:59:09 AM
Subject: [Bluemusic-users] Realtime Usage Mode (Host interaction with Csound)

Hi All,

(I'm crossposting to the blue users list so that they know what I'm up
to, but would ask if they have technical comments to respond on the
csound-devel list as it concerns Csound API usage, and other
developers using the API may have the same interests)

I was working on some music tonight with blue and had a MIDI keyboard
hooked up and was trying to come up with ways to improve my composing
experience.  I think ideally I'd like to be able to get to do things
that are commonly found in MIDI-based environments, and am breaking it
down in the following:

-Audio Engine is always-on
-User can turn on or off the playback of the project; the program will
send events to the ongoing instruments and effects that are feeding
audio to the audio engine
-All recorded events and event data is held in the host, host sends
the data to the engine
-Live events are sent to the host, host sends data to the engine

For blue/csound, I am thinking:

-blue leaves bare orchestra running in csound engine, no note events whatsoever
-blue will hold copies of all note data, when play is pressed, blue
will, in sync with csound engine, send notes to the csound engine via
API
-blue will intercept MIDI events, map according to rules given by
user, and send notes to csound engine via API
-if instrument/effects change or topology of signal graph changes,
user intervention required for engine restart

To achieve this I think blue needs a way to keep the engine always-on.
Also, I think a method to turn all notes off will be necessary, so
blue can feed notes, but if the user in blue decides to move the
playback head or stop the score, blue can send the all notes off and
csound can clear the notes that are queued up on it side.  blue then
would have to have it's own event list that is ticking along with
csound's (not too bad as blue is already calling csound's
performKsmps, and in the loop in blue it can add its own ticking of
its event list). I think because some instruments need to stay always
on, I would need to find a way to turn off all notes for all
instruments except those instruments which I would mark as always-on.

For the concern of live events, there are a couple approaches I'm thinking of:

-blue intercepts MIDI and simply relays to Csound.  This actually
seems rather easy using the API callbacks for MIDI input and output.
-blue intercepts MIDI and maps data, then sends standard Csound SCO to
Csound.  This seems much more powerful, as users can map MIDI notes to
other values via Scala scales, send amp data mapped in different
numerical ranges, or using an interface can modify in realtime what
other pfield values will be sent to the user (will use blue convention
of template notes as a foundation)

I think either way, there will be some need by the user to modify
their instruments to work either with MIDI or with SCO.  My thought is
that realtime SCO would be most flexible, and the basic note template
could be kept as part of the instrument definition to make that
portable (i.e. download an instrument from blueShare and have
immediate ability to just play it with MIDI keyboard without any other
work).

Now, I'm trying to sort out if this is all possible already or if
there's really anything that just isn't possible yet.  I'm sort of
thinking this through as I go along, so please bear with me:

-I could run the project with "f0 3600" and no other notes
-I could craft a "all notes off instrument" using turnoff2 that hits
all the instruments in my project that are not always-on (actually,
might be better to make an all-notes instrument that just worked on a
single instrument; if user then disables an instrument in blue all the
notes would get turned off for just that instrument, or if all notes
off is necssary, blue can send multiple notes with each of the
different instrument numbers as a pfield)

Is there anything I'm missing?  I figure the way to go about it is:

-Get host/API stuff setup to send notes in realtime vs. using csound's
internal SCO (these notes would be the "normal" notes)
-Work with MIDI note data and mapping that information, sending "realtime" notes
-Work with MIDI controller data, mapping to blue parameters, which
would automatically work as blue parameters map to Csound data via API
-Later allow for other inputs, i.e. OSC, user scripts, etc., which
starts to bring in more of blueLive and other compositional systems

I think this will probably be the next big evolution of blue/csound
interaction and will further build on the API integration that was
introduced with 0.124.0.  I think too that this would take it as far
one could go with csound's current design.  The next step after that
would introduce finer level of changing instruments in realtime (i.e.
insert/remove/reconnect opcodes) which is something we've talked about
here on the csound dev list before, but I think that is too much for
my brain to handle at the moment. =P

I'd appreciate any advice and thoughts people would have to give on
this.  I think just writing through this has already helped to figure
out the issues and possible solution going forward and I think I may
go ahead and start to experiment with this.

Thanks!
steven

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[Steven Yi]

Hi Michael,

I think performance-wise we should keep looking for improvements; as
for stability I think with API usage it is not so bad in terms of
stability.  I was trying out CsoundPerformanceThread which uses a
native thread but I'm not sure it's going to work yet.

Thanks!
steven



On Mon, Nov 3, 2008 at 7:46 AM, Michael Bechard <gothmagog@...> wrote:

> I am just concerned about performance and stability issues at this point. Judging from the activity on this list as of late regarding the latest real-time release, it doesn't sound like all the kinks have been worked out.
>
> Michael Bechard
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Steven Yi <stevenyi@...>
> To: Developer discussions <csound-devel@...>; blue users mailing list <bluemusic-users@...>
> Sent: Monday, November 3, 2008 1:59:09 AM
> Subject: [Bluemusic-users] Realtime Usage Mode (Host interaction with Csound)
>
> Hi All,
>
> (I'm crossposting to the blue users list so that they know what I'm up
> to, but would ask if they have technical comments to respond on the
> csound-devel list as it concerns Csound API usage, and other
> developers using the API may have the same interests)
>
> I was working on some music tonight with blue and had a MIDI keyboard
> hooked up and was trying to come up with ways to improve my composing
> experience.  I think ideally I'd like to be able to get to do things
> that are commonly found in MIDI-based environments, and am breaking it
> down in the following:
>
> -Audio Engine is always-on
> -User can turn on or off the playback of the project; the program will
> send events to the ongoing instruments and effects that are feeding
> audio to the audio engine
> -All recorded events and event data is held in the host, host sends
> the data to the engine
> -Live events are sent to the host, host sends data to the engine
>
> For blue/csound, I am thinking:
>
> -blue leaves bare orchestra running in csound engine, no note events whatsoever
> -blue will hold copies of all note data, when play is pressed, blue
> will, in sync with csound engine, send notes to the csound engine via
> API
> -blue will intercept MIDI events, map according to rules given by
> user, and send notes to csound engine via API
> -if instrument/effects change or topology of signal graph changes,
> user intervention required for engine restart
>
> To achieve this I think blue needs a way to keep the engine always-on.
> Also, I think a method to turn all notes off will be necessary, so
> blue can feed notes, but if the user in blue decides to move the
> playback head or stop the score, blue can send the all notes off and
> csound can clear the notes that are queued up on it side.  blue then
> would have to have it's own event list that is ticking along with
> csound's (not too bad as blue is already calling csound's
> performKsmps, and in the loop in blue it can add its own ticking of
> its event list). I think because some instruments need to stay always
> on, I would need to find a way to turn off all notes for all
> instruments except those instruments which I would mark as always-on.
>
> For the concern of live events, there are a couple approaches I'm thinking of:
>
> -blue intercepts MIDI and simply relays to Csound.  This actually
> seems rather easy using the API callbacks for MIDI input and output.
> -blue intercepts MIDI and maps data, then sends standard Csound SCO to
> Csound.  This seems much more powerful, as users can map MIDI notes to
> other values via Scala scales, send amp data mapped in different
> numerical ranges, or using an interface can modify in realtime what
> other pfield values will be sent to the user (will use blue convention
> of template notes as a foundation)
>
> I think either way, there will be some need by the user to modify
> their instruments to work either with MIDI or with SCO.  My thought is
> that realtime SCO would be most flexible, and the basic note template
> could be kept as part of the instrument definition to make that
> portable (i.e. download an instrument from blueShare and have
> immediate ability to just play it with MIDI keyboard without any other
> work).
>
> Now, I'm trying to sort out if this is all possible already or if
> there's really anything that just isn't possible yet.  I'm sort of
> thinking this through as I go along, so please bear with me:
>
> -I could run the project with "f0 3600" and no other notes
> -I could craft a "all notes off instrument" using turnoff2 that hits
> all the instruments in my project that are not always-on (actually,
> might be better to make an all-notes instrument that just worked on a
> single instrument; if user then disables an instrument in blue all the
> notes would get turned off for just that instrument, or if all notes
> off is necssary, blue can send multiple notes with each of the
> different instrument numbers as a pfield)
>
> Is there anything I'm missing?  I figure the way to go about it is:
>
> -Get host/API stuff setup to send notes in realtime vs. using csound's
> internal SCO (these notes would be the "normal" notes)
> -Work with MIDI note data and mapping that information, sending "realtime" notes
> -Work with MIDI controller data, mapping to blue parameters, which
> would automatically work as blue parameters map to Csound data via API
> -Later allow for other inputs, i.e. OSC, user scripts, etc., which
> starts to bring in more of blueLive and other compositional systems
>
> I think this will probably be the next big evolution of blue/csound
> interaction and will further build on the API integration that was
> introduced with 0.124.0.  I think too that this would take it as far
> one could go with csound's current design.  The next step after that
> would introduce finer level of changing instruments in realtime (i.e.
> insert/remove/reconnect opcodes) which is something we've talked about
> here on the csound dev list before, but I think that is too much for
> my brain to handle at the moment. =P
>
> I'd appreciate any advice and thoughts people would have to give on
> this.  I think just writing through this has already helped to figure
> out the issues and possible solution going forward and I think I may
> go ahead and start to experiment with this.
>
> Thanks!
> steven
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> Build the coolest Linux based applications with Moblin SDK & win great prizes
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> Bluemusic-users@...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bluemusic-users
>
>
>
>
>
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[Atte]

Steven Yi wrote:

> I think performance-wise we should keep looking for improvements; as
> for stability I think with API usage it is not so bad in terms of
> stability.  I was trying out CsoundPerformanceThread which uses a
> native thread but I'm not sure it's going to work yet.

I'm sure we can work it out, but I agree with Michael, that it's not
that great ATM.

Steven, did you think about my mail from 30. october regarding "Realtime
blue"? I'd be most interested in hearing your thoughts...

--
Atte

http://atte.dk    http://modlys.dk

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[stephane boussuge]

hi steven
all the midi stuff sound good to my ears.
Fantastisc !
as an symbolic composer /ac toolbox / grace user in midi i 'll love  
your idea about blue with midi feature.
very good job
best regards

stephane

Le 3 nov. 08 à 08:59, Steven Yi a écrit :

> Hi All,
>
> (I'm crossposting to the blue users list so that they know what I'm up
> to, but would ask if they have technical comments to respond on the
> csound-devel list as it concerns Csound API usage, and other
> developers using the API may have the same interests)
>
> I was working on some music tonight with blue and had a MIDI keyboard
> hooked up and was trying to come up with ways to improve my composing
> experience.  I think ideally I'd like to be able to get to do things
> that are commonly found in MIDI-based environments, and am breaking it
> down in the following:
>
> -Audio Engine is always-on
> -User can turn on or off the playback of the project; the program will
> send events to the ongoing instruments and effects that are feeding
> audio to the audio engine
> -All recorded events and event data is held in the host, host sends
> the data to the engine
> -Live events are sent to the host, host sends data to the engine
>
> For blue/csound, I am thinking:
>
> -blue leaves bare orchestra running in csound engine, no note events  
> whatsoever
> -blue will hold copies of all note data, when play is pressed, blue
> will, in sync with csound engine, send notes to the csound engine via
> API
> -blue will intercept MIDI events, map according to rules given by
> user, and send notes to csound engine via API
> -if instrument/effects change or topology of signal graph changes,
> user intervention required for engine restart
>
> To achieve this I think blue needs a way to keep the engine always-on.
> Also, I think a method to turn all notes off will be necessary, so
> blue can feed notes, but if the user in blue decides to move the
> playback head or stop the score, blue can send the all notes off and
> csound can clear the notes that are queued up on it side.  blue then
> would have to have it's own event list that is ticking along with
> csound's (not too bad as blue is already calling csound's
> performKsmps, and in the loop in blue it can add its own ticking of
> its event list). I think because some instruments need to stay always
> on, I would need to find a way to turn off all notes for all
> instruments except those instruments which I would mark as always-on.
>
> For the concern of live events, there are a couple approaches I'm  
> thinking of:
>
> -blue intercepts MIDI and simply relays to Csound.  This actually
> seems rather easy using the API callbacks for MIDI input and output.
> -blue intercepts MIDI and maps data, then sends standard Csound SCO to
> Csound.  This seems much more powerful, as users can map MIDI notes to
> other values via Scala scales, send amp data mapped in different
> numerical ranges, or using an interface can modify in realtime what
> other pfield values will be sent to the user (will use blue convention
> of template notes as a foundation)
>
> I think either way, there will be some need by the user to modify
> their instruments to work either with MIDI or with SCO.  My thought is
> that realtime SCO would be most flexible, and the basic note template
> could be kept as part of the instrument definition to make that
> portable (i.e. download an instrument from blueShare and have
> immediate ability to just play it with MIDI keyboard without any other
> work).
>
> Now, I'm trying to sort out if this is all possible already or if
> there's really anything that just isn't possible yet.  I'm sort of
> thinking this through as I go along, so please bear with me:
>
> -I could run the project with "f0 3600" and no other notes
> -I could craft a "all notes off instrument" using turnoff2 that hits
> all the instruments in my project that are not always-on (actually,
> might be better to make an all-notes instrument that just worked on a
> single instrument; if user then disables an instrument in blue all the
> notes would get turned off for just that instrument, or if all notes
> off is necssary, blue can send multiple notes with each of the
> different instrument numbers as a pfield)
>
> Is there anything I'm missing?  I figure the way to go about it is:
>
> -Get host/API stuff setup to send notes in realtime vs. using csound's
> internal SCO (these notes would be the "normal" notes)
> -Work with MIDI note data and mapping that information, sending  
> "realtime" notes
> -Work with MIDI controller data, mapping to blue parameters, which
> would automatically work as blue parameters map to Csound data via API
> -Later allow for other inputs, i.e. OSC, user scripts, etc., which
> starts to bring in more of blueLive and other compositional systems
>
> I think this will probably be the next big evolution of blue/csound
> interaction and will further build on the API integration that was
> introduced with 0.124.0.  I think too that this would take it as far
> one could go with csound's current design.  The next step after that
> would introduce finer level of changing instruments in realtime (i.e.
> insert/remove/reconnect opcodes) which is something we've talked about
> here on the csound dev list before, but I think that is too much for
> my brain to handle at the moment. =P
>
> I'd appreciate any advice and thoughts people would have to give on
> this.  I think just writing through this has already helped to figure
> out the issues and possible solution going forward and I think I may
> go ahead and start to experiment with this.
>
> Thanks!
> steven
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Moblin Your Move Developer's  
> challenge
> Build the coolest Linux based applications with Moblin SDK & win  
> great prizes
> Grand prize is a trip for two to an Open Source event anywhere in  
> the world
> http://moblin-contest.org/redirect.php?banner_id=100&url=/
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[menno]

Hello Steven, list,

a small comment on my part.
this will improve faster working with Blue and help to create the raw structure of a piece or parts of that piece more intuitively  :

Steven Yi wrote:

-blue intercepts MIDI and maps data, then sends standard Csound SCO to
Csound.  This seems much more powerful, as users can map MIDI notes to
other values via Scala scales, send amp data mapped in different
numerical ranges, or using an interface can modify in realtime what
other pfield values will be sent to the user (will use blue convention
of template notes as a foundation)

the SoundObjects on the parallel SoundLayers have to renderd realtime while "recording" and transforming the new data.

But to my feeling the issue of the Automation Lines has not reached some sort of state of completeness yet and i think it would be better to finish that first (for me anyways :)).
Right now i can move a SoundObject and the Automation points with it (or selected points) but i have not found a way to be able to scale a SoundObject and scale the Automation points with it.  And can the SoundObjects be scaled to a earlier time and not only to a later time as is the case now?

greetings
Menno

[Steven Yi]

Hi Menno,

(Note to all: my emails will be off and on through monday as I am away
at a conference)

I was able to add scaling of sound objects by start time yesterday
(dragging from left side) and that is now in cvs. I have to add an
undo operation for it but the main operation works.  If you don't
currently compile from cvs just reply here and I will push a build to
my later this evening when I get back to my friend's home.  I have a
little free time here and there and will try looking at the line point
scaling.

I will try to reply to the other comments in this thread later today.

Thanks all!
steven

On 11/4/08, menno <nabob_cd@...> wrote:

>
> Hello Steven, list,
>
> a small comment on my part.
> this will improve faster working with Blue and help to create the raw
> structure of a piece or parts of that piece more intuitively  :
>
>
> Steven Yi wrote:
>>
>>
>> -blue intercepts MIDI and maps data, then sends standard Csound SCO to
>> Csound.  This seems much more powerful, as users can map MIDI notes to
>> other values via Scala scales, send amp data mapped in different
>> numerical ranges, or using an interface can modify in realtime what
>> other pfield values will be sent to the user (will use blue convention
>> of template notes as a foundation)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> the SoundObjects on the parallel SoundLayers have to renderd realtime while
> "recording" and transforming the new data.
>
> But to my feeling the issue of the Automation Lines has not reached some
> sort of state of completeness yet and i think it would be better to finish
> that first (for me anyways :)).
> Right now i can move a SoundObject and the Automation points with it (or
> selected points) but i have not found a way to be able to scale a
> SoundObject and scale the Automation points with it.  And can the
> SoundObjects be scaled to a earlier time and not only to a later time as is
> the case now?
>
> greetings
> Menno
>
>
> -----
> http://www.jamendo.com/de/album/6789/
> http://www.jamendo.com/en/album/7428/
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://www.nabble.com/Realtime-Usage-Mode-%28Host-interaction-with-Csound%29-tp20298531p20321610.html
> Sent from the Csound - Blue - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
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[menno]

Steven, great!

i do not compile from cvs. It would be great if you managed to make a new build.
This is a very important feature for me, now i can drag and scale what and where i want.
I'll give feedback after testing.

Thanks for the quick reaction.

greetings,
Menno

 

Steven Yi wrote:

Hi Menno,

(Note to all: my emails will be off and on through monday as I am away
at a conference)

I was able to add scaling of sound objects by start time yesterday
(dragging from left side) and that is now in cvs. I have to add an
undo operation for it but the main operation works.  If you don't
currently compile from cvs just reply here and I will push a build to
my later this evening when I get back to my friend's home.  I have a
little free time here and there and will try looking at the line point
scaling.

I will try to reply to the other comments in this thread later today.

Thanks all!
steven

On 11/4/08, menno <[e-mail]> wrote:
>
> Hello Steven, list,
>
> a small comment on my part.
> this will improve faster working with Blue and help to create the raw
> structure of a piece or parts of that piece more intuitively  :
>
>
> Steven Yi wrote:
>>
>>
>> -blue intercepts MIDI and maps data, then sends standard Csound SCO to
>> Csound.  This seems much more powerful, as users can map MIDI notes to
>> other values via Scala scales, send amp data mapped in different
>> numerical ranges, or using an interface can modify in realtime what
>> other pfield values will be sent to the user (will use blue convention
>> of template notes as a foundation)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> the SoundObjects on the parallel SoundLayers have to renderd realtime while
> "recording" and transforming the new data.
>
> But to my feeling the issue of the Automation Lines has not reached some
> sort of state of completeness yet and i think it would be better to finish
> that first (for me anyways :)).
> Right now i can move a SoundObject and the Automation points with it (or
> selected points) but i have not found a way to be able to scale a
> SoundObject and scale the Automation points with it.  And can the
> SoundObjects be scaled to a earlier time and not only to a later time as is
> the case now?
>
> greetings
> Menno
>
>
> -----
> http://www.jamendo.com/de/album/6789/
> http://www.jamendo.com/en/album/7428/
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://www.nabble.com/Realtime-Usage-Mode-%28Host-interaction-with-Csound%29-tp20298531p20321610.html
> Sent from the Csound - Blue - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> Build the coolest Linux based applications with Moblin SDK & win great
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[Steven Yi]

Hi Menno,

I got scaling of automation values when scaling a soundObject, but I
do not have moving of points when in score mode.  For now, using
multi-line mode is possible.  I got to hang out with Michael Bechard
and bounced some ideas off him today and he offered up some advice and
ideas regarding the moving soundObjects.  I think it will be
implemented that if you have multiple soundObjects selected and are
dragging, then only the points that are within those soundObjects are
dragged.  One thing I do not know and which is not implemented in
multiline mode either is if extra points should be generated when
moving so that if a line intersects the soundObject bondary (left or
right side) and you drag, if an extra point should be created at the
boundary so that the value that was there before dragging will remain
as well as the angle of the line.

Anyways, I think I want to spend a little time to figure this out and
also to write a better implementation that is cleaner and going to
support all of the drag behaviors in a cleaner way.  Until then, you
can test out the new build at:

http://www.kunstmusik.com/blue_0.124.3_installer.jar
http://www.kunstmusik.com/blue_0.124.3.zip

Thanks!
steven

On Fri, Nov 7, 2008 at 11:17 AM, menno <nabob_cd@...> wrote:

>
> Steven, great!
>
> i do not compile from cvs. It would be great if you managed to make a new
> build.
> This is a very important feature for me, now i can drag and scale what and
> where i want.
> I'll give feedback after testing.
>
> Thanks for the quick reaction.
>
> greetings,
> Menno
>
>
>
> Steven Yi wrote:
>>
>> Hi Menno,
>>
>> (Note to all: my emails will be off and on through monday as I am away
>> at a conference)
>>
>> I was able to add scaling of sound objects by start time yesterday
>> (dragging from left side) and that is now in cvs. I have to add an
>> undo operation for it but the main operation works.  If you don't
>> currently compile from cvs just reply here and I will push a build to
>> my later this evening when I get back to my friend's home.  I have a
>> little free time here and there and will try looking at the line point
>> scaling.
>>
>> I will try to reply to the other comments in this thread later today.
>>
>> Thanks all!
>> steven
>>
>> On 11/4/08, menno <nabob_cd@...> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hello Steven, list,
>>>
>>> a small comment on my part.
>>> this will improve faster working with Blue and help to create the raw
>>> structure of a piece or parts of that piece more intuitively  :
>>>
>>>
>>> Steven Yi wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -blue intercepts MIDI and maps data, then sends standard Csound SCO to
>>>> Csound.  This seems much more powerful, as users can map MIDI notes to
>>>> other values via Scala scales, send amp data mapped in different
>>>> numerical ranges, or using an interface can modify in realtime what
>>>> other pfield values will be sent to the user (will use blue convention
>>>> of template notes as a foundation)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> the SoundObjects on the parallel SoundLayers have to renderd realtime
>>> while
>>> "recording" and transforming the new data.
>>>
>>> But to my feeling the issue of the Automation Lines has not reached some
>>> sort of state of completeness yet and i think it would be better to
>>> finish
>>> that first (for me anyways :)).
>>> Right now i can move a SoundObject and the Automation points with it (or
>>> selected points) but i have not found a way to be able to scale a
>>> SoundObject and scale the Automation points with it.  And can the
>>> SoundObjects be scaled to a earlier time and not only to a later time as
>>> is
>>> the case now?
>>>
>>> greetings
>>> Menno
>>>
>>>
>>> -----
>>> http://www.jamendo.com/de/album/6789/
>>> http://www.jamendo.com/en/album/7428/
>>> --
>>> View this message in context:
>>> http://www.nabble.com/Realtime-Usage-Mode-%28Host-interaction-with-Csound%29-tp20298531p20321610.html
>>> Sent from the Csound - Blue - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>>
>>>
>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Moblin Your Move Developer's
>>> challenge
>>> Build the coolest Linux based applications with Moblin SDK & win great
>>> prizes
>>> Grand prize is a trip for two to an Open Source event anywhere in the
>>> world
>>> http://moblin-contest.org/redirect.php?banner_id=100&url=/
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Bluemusic-users mailing list
>>> Bluemusic-users@...
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bluemusic-users
>>>
>>
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>> challenge
>> Build the coolest Linux based applications with Moblin SDK & win great
>> prizes
>> Grand prize is a trip for two to an Open Source event anywhere in the
>> world
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>> _______________________________________________
>> Bluemusic-users mailing list
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>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bluemusic-users
>>
>>
>
>
> -----
> http://www.jamendo.com/de/album/6789/
> http://www.jamendo.com/en/album/7428/
> --
> View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Realtime-Usage-Mode-%28Host-interaction-with-Csound%29-tp20298531p20387115.html
> Sent from the Csound - Blue - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
>
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[menno]

Hello Steven, Michael, list,

great to have the possibility to have a 1 to 1 conversation about the development of Blue and exchange ideas this way. Maybe it is possible to have these kinds of realtime conversations on the Csound IRC - i don't know how much difference in hours there is exactly to make this happen, but maybe we can all make an appointment once a month on a sunday so all Blue-people with ideas and questions could communicate in real time. Just a thought.

Dragging and scaling of the SoundObjects are working (nearly) fine;
I see the issue about loosing the right angle of the Automation Line at the very beginning and end of the SoundObject when being dragged. Maybe one point should be created for every Automation Line at Start Time of the SoundObject and one point at the End Time so that when dragging in Score Mode all the Points seem "connected" to that SoundObject.
Being able to move the Start Time only is great too.
But when i select several Objects and try to scale them only one of them does and i think all the selected SoundObjects should follow the scaling.

Thanks for this update,
Menno
 

[Michael Bechard]

I like the idea of meeting up on IRC, or whatever IM medium...



----- Original Message ----
From: menno <nabob_cd@...>
To: bluemusic-users@...
Sent: Sunday, November 9, 2008 9:31:20 AM
Subject: Re: [Bluemusic-users] Re altime Usage Mode (Host interaction with Csound)


Hello Steven, Michael, list,

great to have the possibility to have a 1 to 1 conversation about the
development of Blue and exchange ideas this way. Maybe it is possible to
have these kinds of realtime conversations on the Csound IRC - i don't know
how much difference in hours there is exactly to make this happen, but maybe
we can all make an appointment once a month on a sunday so all Blue-people
with ideas and questions could communicate in real time. Just a thought.

Dragging and scaling of the SoundObjects are working (nearly) fine;
I see the issue about loosing the right angle of the Automation Line at the
very beginning and end of the SoundObject when being dragged. Maybe one
point should be created for every Automation Line at Start Time of the
SoundObject and one point at the End Time so that when dragging in Score
Mode all the Points seem "connected" to that SoundObject.
Being able to move the Start Time only is great too.
But when i select several Objects and try to scale them only one of them
does and i think all the selected SoundObjects should follow the scaling.

Thanks for this update,
Menno



-----
http://www.jamendo.com/de/album/6789/
http://www.jamendo.com/en/album/7428/
--
View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Realtime-Usage-Mode-%28Host-interaction-with-Csound%29-tp20298531p20407388.html
Sent from the Csound - Blue - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.


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[Steven Yi]

HI Menno,

Sorry for the long delay in replying, things have been quite busy with
me (getting married in a few weeks!!  I updated the builds:

http://www.kunstmusik.com/blue_0.124.3_installer.jar
http://www.kunstmusik.com/blue_0.124.3.zip

and these will move points when you move soundObjects in Score mode.
There are issues with scaling multiple soundObjects as you could scale
just from end point or consider all objects and scale as a group, such
that start times could move too.  I don't know what is the ideal
behavior in this case.

I have written down to take a look at creating points at ends when
moving soundObjects though with everything going on I'm not sure when
I'll get to it.

Thanks!
steven

On Sun, Nov 9, 2008 at 7:31 AM, menno <nabob_cd@...> wrote:

>
> Hello Steven, Michael, list,
>
> great to have the possibility to have a 1 to 1 conversation about the
> development of Blue and exchange ideas this way. Maybe it is possible to
> have these kinds of realtime conversations on the Csound IRC - i don't know
> how much difference in hours there is exactly to make this happen, but maybe
> we can all make an appointment once a month on a sunday so all Blue-people
> with ideas and questions could communicate in real time. Just a thought.
>
> Dragging and scaling of the SoundObjects are working (nearly) fine;
> I see the issue about loosing the right angle of the Automation Line at the
> very beginning and end of the SoundObject when being dragged. Maybe one
> point should be created for every Automation Line at Start Time of the
> SoundObject and one point at the End Time so that when dragging in Score
> Mode all the Points seem "connected" to that SoundObject.
> Being able to move the Start Time only is great too.
> But when i select several Objects and try to scale them only one of them
> does and i think all the selected SoundObjects should follow the scaling.
>
> Thanks for this update,
> Menno
>
>
>
> -----
> http://www.jamendo.com/de/album/6789/
> http://www.jamendo.com/en/album/7428/
> --
> View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Realtime-Usage-Mode-%28Host-interaction-with-Csound%29-tp20298531p20407388.html
> Sent from the Csound - Blue - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Moblin Your Move Developer's challenge
> Build the coolest Linux based applications with Moblin SDK & win great prizes
> Grand prize is a trip for two to an Open Source event anywhere in the world
> http://moblin-contest.org/redirect.php?banner_id=100&url=/
> _______________________________________________
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> Bluemusic-users@...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bluemusic-users
>

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[Atte]

Steven Yi wrote:

> Sorry for the long delay in replying, things have been quite busy with
> me (getting married in a few weeks!!

Congrats!

--
Atte

http://atte.dk    http://modlys.dk

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[menno]

Steven Yi wrote:

HI Menno,

Sorry for the long delay in replying, things have been quite busy with
me (getting married in a few weeks!!

This sounds like a very good excuse!! :)
Congratulations to you both.

As usual i will do some testing again. I'm pretty pleased how it's working in the other beta you released some days ago, although not quite finished.
How do you feel in principle about the idea of holding a meeting on the #csound once a month? - (There is 9 hours of time difference between your place and mine, so you won't have to get out of bed very early in the morning. Maybe others will join in after a few sessions? )-

Menno

[Michael Bechard]

Congratulations!



----- Original Message ----
From: Steven Yi <stevenyi@...>
To: blue users mailing list <bluemusic-users@...>
Sent: Friday, November 21, 2008 12:43:45 AM
Subject: Re: [Bluemusic-users] Re altime Usage Mode (Host interaction with Csound)

HI Menno,

Sorry for the long delay in replying, things have been quite busy with
me (getting married in a few weeks!!  I updated the builds:

http://www.kunstmusik.com/blue_0.124.3_installer.jar
http://www.kunstmusik.com/blue_0.124.3.zip

and these will move points when you move soundObjects in Score mode.
There are issues with scaling multiple soundObjects as you could scale
just from end point or consider all objects and scale as a group, such
that start times could move too.  I don't know what is the ideal
behavior in this case.

I have written down to take a look at creating points at ends when
moving soundObjects though with everything going on I'm not sure when
I'll get to it.

Thanks!
steven

On Sun, Nov 9, 2008 at 7:31 AM, menno <nabob_cd@...> wrote:

>
> Hello Steven, Michael, list,
>
> great to have the possibility to have a 1 to 1 conversation about the
> development of Blue and exchange ideas this way. Maybe it is possible to
> have these kinds of realtime conversations on the Csound IRC - i don't know
> how much difference in hours there is exactly to make this happen, but maybe
> we can all make an appointment once a month on a sunday so all Blue-people
> with ideas and questions could communicate in real time. Just a thought.
>
> Dragging and scaling of the SoundObjects are working (nearly) fine;
> I see the issue about loosing the right angle of the Automation Line at the
> very beginning and end of the SoundObject when being dragged. Maybe one
> point should be created for every Automation Line at Start Time of the
> SoundObject and one point at the End Time so that when dragging in Score
> Mode all the Points seem "connected" to that SoundObject.
> Being able to move the Start Time only is great too.
> But when i select several Objects and try to scale them only one of them
> does and i think all the selected SoundObjects should follow the scaling.
>
> Thanks for this update,
> Menno
>
>
>
> -----
> http://www.jamendo.com/de/album/6789/
> http://www.jamendo.com/en/album/7428/
> --
> View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Realtime-Usage-Mode-%28Host-interaction-with-Csound%29-tp20298531p20407388.html
> Sent from the Csound - Blue - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Moblin Your Move Developer's challenge
> Build the coolest Linux based applications with Moblin SDK & win great prizes
> Grand prize is a trip for two to an Open Source event anywhere in the world
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> _______________________________________________
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> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bluemusic-users
>

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[Steven Yi]

Thanks! =)

On Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 4:46 AM, Atte André Jensen
<atte.jensen@...> wrote:

> Steven Yi wrote:
>
>> Sorry for the long delay in replying, things have been quite busy with
>> me (getting married in a few weeks!!
>
> Congrats!
>
> --
> Atte
>
> http://atte.dk    http://modlys.dk
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> Build the coolest Linux based applications with Moblin SDK & win great prizes
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[Steven Yi]

Thanks!

As for meeting, I'm up for it, but I think it may have to wait until
after the wedding.  Another option besides using IRC is using Meebo
chat rooms (meebo.com), though IRC would be fine. Let's bring this
back up mid-December and we can pick a day to meet!

steven

On Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 5:23 AM, menno <nabob_cd@...> wrote:

>
>
> Steven Yi wrote:
>>
>> HI Menno,
>>
>> Sorry for the long delay in replying, things have been quite busy with
>> me (getting married in a few weeks!!
>>
>
> This sounds like a very good excuse!! :)
> Congratulations to you both.
>
> As usual i will do some testing again. I'm pretty pleased how it's working
> in the other beta you released some days ago, although not quite finished.
> How do you feel in principle about the idea of holding a meeting on the
> #csound once a month? - (There is 9 hours of time difference between your
> place and mine, so you won't have to get out of bed very early in the
> morning. Maybe others will join in after a few sessions? )-
>
> Menno
>
> -----
> http://www.jamendo.com/de/album/6789/
> http://www.jamendo.com/en/album/7428/
> --
> View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Realtime-Usage-Mode-%28Host-interaction-with-Csound%29-tp20298531p20620940.html
> Sent from the Csound - Blue - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
>
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[Steven Yi]

Thanks!

On Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 5:42 AM, Michael Bechard <gothmagog@...> wrote:

> Congratulations!
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Steven Yi <stevenyi@...>
> To: blue users mailing list <bluemusic-users@...>
> Sent: Friday, November 21, 2008 12:43:45 AM
> Subject: Re: [Bluemusic-users] Re altime Usage Mode (Host interaction with Csound)
>
> HI Menno,
>
> Sorry for the long delay in replying, things have been quite busy with
> me (getting married in a few weeks!!  I updated the builds:
>
> http://www.kunstmusik.com/blue_0.124.3_installer.jar
> http://www.kunstmusik.com/blue_0.124.3.zip
>
> and these will move points when you move soundObjects in Score mode.
> There are issues with scaling multiple soundObjects as you could scale
> just from end point or consider all objects and scale as a group, such
> that start times could move too.  I don't know what is the ideal
> behavior in this case.
>
> I have written down to take a look at creating points at ends when
> moving soundObjects though with everything going on I'm not sure when
> I'll get to it.
>
> Thanks!
> steven
>
> On Sun, Nov 9, 2008 at 7:31 AM, menno <nabob_cd@...> wrote:
>>
>> Hello Steven, Michael, list,
>>
>> great to have the possibility to have a 1 to 1 conversation about the
>> development of Blue and exchange ideas this way. Maybe it is possible to
>> have these kinds of realtime conversations on the Csound IRC - i don't know
>> how much difference in hours there is exactly to make this happen, but maybe
>> we can all make an appointment once a month on a sunday so all Blue-people
>> with ideas and questions could communicate in real time. Just a thought.
>>
>> Dragging and scaling of the SoundObjects are working (nearly) fine;
>> I see the issue about loosing the right angle of the Automation Line at the
>> very beginning and end of the SoundObject when being dragged. Maybe one
>> point should be created for every Automation Line at Start Time of the
>> SoundObject and one point at the End Time so that when dragging in Score
>> Mode all the Points seem "connected" to that SoundObject.
>> Being able to move the Start Time only is great too.
>> But when i select several Objects and try to scale them only one of them
>> does and i think all the selected SoundObjects should follow the scaling.
>>
>> Thanks for this update,
>> Menno
>>
>>
>>
>> -----
>> http://www.jamendo.com/de/album/6789/
>> http://www.jamendo.com/en/album/7428/
>> --
>> View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Realtime-Usage-Mode-%28Host-interaction-with-Csound%29-tp20298531p20407388.html
>> Sent from the Csound - Blue - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>
>>
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>
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[Mark Van Peteghem-2]

Steven Yi wrote:
> HI Menno,
>
> Sorry for the long delay in replying, things have been quite busy with
> me (getting married in a few weeks!!

Congratulations from me too!!

I've been quiet here for a while, but working on a great Blue instrument.

This afternoon I'm at the Play&Produce event in my home town,
<http://www.playandproduce.be> (Dutch only), for people making
electronic music or DJ'ing. I wonder how many people there know CSound
or Blue. Well, I look forward to the session with Ken Ishii, one of my
favourites.

--
  Mark
  _________________________________________
  When you get lemons, you make lemonade.
  When you get hardware, you make software.


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[Mark Van Peteghem-2]

Mark Van Peteghem wrote:
> This afternoon I'm at the Play&Produce event in my home town,
> <http://www.playandproduce.be> (Dutch only), for people making
> electronic music or DJ'ing. I wonder how many people there know CSound
> or Blue. Well, I look forward to the session with Ken Ishii, one of my
> favourites.

It was interesting, although they said many things I already knew. There
were demonstrations of how to use Apple Logic Pro, Reaktor and
FruityLoops. Most things are possible with Blue as well, but advanced
features not shown may be absent in Blue, I don't know. For Reaktor and
FruityLoops they both said how cool it is to randomize presets, so you
can find new unexpected sounds; I thought "Yeah, I already know that
from Blue, I even suggested it my self".

-
  Mark
  _________________________________________
  When you get lemons, you make lemonade.
  When you get hardware, you make software.


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