Remember the objective is authoring speed

[Steve Litt]

Hi all,

There have been a lot of VO enhancements spoken of in the past few days, and a
few of them require a fair amount of typing.

Please remember that the most basic objective of VO, after the fact that it's
an outline at all, is that its authoring speed is lightning fast. You should
be able to sit in any classroom with a VO equipped laptop and enter notes,
outline organized, in real time, always assuming you can type 40WPM.

One could argue that if these multikeystroke actions were part of addon
functionalities such that VO could still be used, without those
functionalities, as an outliner, then the authoring speed of the
functionalities doesn't matter. There's a certain truth in that, but it would
be wonderful if all added functionalities could also be used in real time in
real discussions or lectures.

SteveT

Steve Litt
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Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/stevelitt


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[Noel Henson]

On Wednesday 30 September 2009, Steve Litt wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> There have been a lot of VO enhancements spoken of in the past few days,
> and a few of them require a fair amount of typing.
>
> Please remember that the most basic objective of VO, after the fact that
> it's an outline at all, is that its authoring speed is lightning fast.
> You should be able to sit in any classroom with a VO equipped laptop and
> enter notes, outline organized, in real time, always assuming you can
> type 40WPM.
>
> One could argue that if these multikeystroke actions were part of addon
> functionalities such that VO could still be used, without those
> functionalities, as an outliner, then the authoring speed of the
> functionalities doesn't matter. There's a certain truth in that, but it
> would be wonderful if all added functionalities could also be used in
> real time in real discussions or lectures.
>
> SteveT
>
> Steve Litt
> Recession Relief Package
> http://www.recession-relief.US
> Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/stevelitt
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> VimOutliner mailing list
> VimOutliner@...
> http://www.lists.vimoutliner.org/mailman/listinfo

Steve,

Could you give some specific examples as to which commands and/or new and
enhanced features that have been discussed that would/could slow down VO
use?

Noel

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[Steve Litt]

On Wednesday 30 September 2009 13:20:40 Noel Henson wrote:

> On Wednesday 30 September 2009, Steve Litt wrote:
> > Hi all,
> >
> > There have been a lot of VO enhancements spoken of in the past few days,
> > and a few of them require a fair amount of typing.
> >
> > Please remember that the most basic objective of VO, after the fact that
> > it's an outline at all, is that its authoring speed is lightning fast.
> > You should be able to sit in any classroom with a VO equipped laptop and
> > enter notes, outline organized, in real time, always assuming you can
> > type 40WPM.
> >
> > One could argue that if these multikeystroke actions were part of addon
> > functionalities such that VO could still be used, without those
> > functionalities, as an outliner, then the authoring speed of the
> > functionalities doesn't matter. There's a certain truth in that, but it
> > would be wonderful if all added functionalities could also be used in
> > real time in real discussions or lectures.
> >
> > SteveT
> >
> > Steve Litt
> > Recession Relief Package
> > http://www.recession-relief.US
> > Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/stevelitt
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > VimOutliner mailing list
> > VimOutliner@...
> > http://www.lists.vimoutliner.org/mailman/listinfo
>
> Steve,
>
> Could you give some specific examples as to which commands and/or new and
> enhanced features that have been discussed that would/could slow down VO
> use?
>
> Noel

From a quick glance, http://www.maplefish.com/todd/aft-refman.html#Targets 
looked a little too keyboard intensive for my taste. Maybe it's just that I
don't understand it, but it looks like something better viewed as a dialect of
VO rather than a part of VO, just like EMDL
(http://www.troubleshooters.com/projects/emdl/) is a dialect of VO but VO
should not be modified to accommodate it.

I guess that's my main point. VO can accommodate all sorts of dialects, and
many have been written. But VO itself should not incorporate properties of
those dialects unless the benefit is universally judged HUGE by the vast
majority of users.

While we're on the subject of modification, I strongly believe VO should never
depend on a specific compilation nor modification of Vim itself, so that one can
easily, quickly, and nondestructively install VO on any Vim equipped computer.

Thanks

SteveT

Steve Litt
Recession Relief Package
http://www.recession-relief.US
Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/stevelitt


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[Noel Henson]

On Wednesday 30 September 2009, Steve Litt wrote:

> >
> > Steve,
> >
> > Could you give some specific examples as to which commands and/or new
> > and enhanced features that have been discussed that would/could slow
> > down VO use?
> >
> > Noel
> >
> >From a quick glance,
> > http://www.maplefish.com/todd/aft-refman.html#Targets
>
> looked a little too keyboard intensive for my taste. Maybe it's just
> that I don't understand it, but it looks like something better viewed as
> a dialect of VO rather than a part of VO, just like EMDL
> (http://www.troubleshooters.com/projects/emdl/) is a dialect of VO but
> VO should not be modified to accommodate it.
>
> I guess that's my main point. VO can accommodate all sorts of dialects,
> and many have been written. But VO itself should not incorporate
> properties of those dialects unless the benefit is universally judged
> HUGE by the vast majority of users.
>
> While we're on the subject of modification, I strongly believe VO should
> never depend on a specific compilation nor modification of Vim itself,
> so that one can easily, quickly, and nondestructively install VO on any
> Vim equipped computer.
>
> Thanks
>
> SteveT
>
> Steve Litt
> Recession Relief Package
> http://www.recession-relief.US
> Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/stevelitt
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> VimOutliner mailing list
> VimOutliner@...
> http://www.lists.vimoutliner.org/mailman/listinfo

I totally understand what you mean by the over-complexity. If you have been
following the AFT thread, you'll see that complicated links and syntax are
left up to the postprocessor.

I was just trying to create a simple way to specify inter-outline links so
that the external perl script for linking could be eliminated.

I also agree that the default vim should be used for VO. However, if I can
get fold highlighting based on level and content included in vim, I would
like to have that feature as part of VO. But that doesn't look promising at
all. To date I've gotten no opinions on how the best way to implement such
a feature would be and no feedback at all on my patch to add the feature
(which is cool and works really well if I do say so myself).  I think it
will go the way of Vince' conceal patch so I'm not going to invest anymore
effort into it.

Noel

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  Noel Henson
  www.noels-lab.com Chips, firmware and embedded systems
  www.vimoutliner.org Work fast. Think well.

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[Steve Litt]

On Wednesday 30 September 2009 14:30:33 Noel Henson wrote:

> I also agree that the default vim should be used for VO. However, if I can
> get fold highlighting based on level and content included in vim, I would
> like to have that feature as part of VO. But that doesn't look promising at
> all. To date I've gotten no opinions on how the best way to implement such
> a feature would be

Hi Noel,

I've gotten used to the green folds and like them. The fact that they're all
the same color instantly says "fold" to me, which is the primary info I want
at a glance. I didn't give an opinion because the feature doesn't sound that
enticing to me.

I'm going to write a separate email discussing the features I'd most like to
see...

Thanks

Steve

Steve Litt
Recession Relief Package
http://www.recession-relief.US
Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/stevelitt


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[Matěj Cepl]

Steve Litt, Wed, 30 Sep 2009 14:11:29 -0400:
> While we're on the subject of modification, I strongly believe VO should
> never depend on a specific compilation nor modification of Vim itself,
> so that one can easily, quickly, and nondestructively install VO on any
> Vim equipped computer.

Certainly, just that I guess there will always be some "vim >= X
required". X is currently 7, right?

Matěj

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[Steve Litt]

On Thursday 01 October 2009 05:34:43 Matej Cepl wrote:
> Steve Litt, Wed, 30 Sep 2009 14:11:29 -0400:
> > While we're on the subject of modification, I strongly believe VO should
> > never depend on a specific compilation nor modification of Vim itself,
> > so that one can easily, quickly, and nondestructively install VO on any
> > Vim equipped computer.
>
> Certainly, just that I guess there will always be some "vim >= X
> required". X is currently 7, right?

I can't give you a definitive answer, but my guess would be X=6. I know it
can't be less than 6 because 6 introduced folding, which enabled the entire VO
concept.

SteveT

Steve Litt
Recession Relief Package
http://www.recession-relief.US
Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/stevelitt


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