Replacing TinyMCE with Xinha

[Computer Guru]

I've always wondered why WP used TinyMCE as the WYSIWYG editor. It doesn't
result in the best code, it's not 100% xhtml compatible, it's not _that_
"tiny," and most importantly, there are better alternatives out there.

I'm currently using Xinha (http://xinha.python-hosting.com/) to add WYSIWYG
support to my commenting form, simply because of how many people throw in
unencoded html characters that cut their post short. It looks great, can be
configured to be even more minimal than TinyMCE, is compatible with all
current-generation browsers AFAIK, and most importantly, by using the new
rendering engine guarantees valid XHTML.

Here's a link to a Xinha-rigged comment form:
http://neosmart.net/blog/archives/291#comment-7324
It looks 100% natural and is very light (unlike FCKeditor), and has full
theming support via CSS (I believe).

It has the same exact feature that has only just been implemented in 2.1:
html and WYSIWYG tabs, switchable via AJAX though.

I use the pure HTML editor for writing posts, but my biggest turn-off in
TinyMCE was how it completely mangled <a> tags, inserting many non-standard
attributes that are absolutely unnecessary and serve no function as far as I
can see but to create trouble and wreck havoc when TinyMCE is pulled (I had
to rewrite all posts done with a WP 1.5 TinyMCE plugin after deleting it and
switching to 2.0 - though that particular issue no longer exists in WP's
TMCE, it _does_ still add non-standard & useless attributes to the <a>
tags).

Moreover, this would be a chance to do something we've long promised and
talked about: removing the WYSIWYG from the actual WP-Core and making it a
plugin.

A plugin for Xinha on WordPress already exists, you may've seen it before:
http://baptiste.us/plugins/xinha4wp

My favorite thing about Xinha is the plugin system for the editor itself,
it's much more straight-forward and *global* than TMCE's current plugin
system and using this might encourage and simplify the use of
editor-plugins. Xinha for WordPress ships with quite a few that are verified
working 100% (I've checked them all on WP 2.1) including PHPSpell/ASpell
support. It has several default plugins that make writing code and accessing
the HTML tags from the WYSIWYG interface without actually switching to the
HTML-view really easy as well.

I'm sure this is going to irk some people off, TMCE has been there for a
while and stuff, but I just think that TMCE has really outlived its purpose.
It was made when the online blogging revolution along with Web 2.0 began,
and it's really just sloppy work compared to some of the more professional
follow-ups, whether they be Xinha or others.

Just food for thought, something to consider, and it's definitely not hard
seeing as the entire GPL'd plugin platform exists. Should this actually be
considered, as simple as reviewing the plugin's code, trashing TMCE, and
shipping WP with Xinha....

(Think of it this way: Way more people will switch to 2.1 when you tell them
there's a new WYSIWYG engine that looks great, has tons of functions, and
produces 100% valid XHTML!!! =P)

Peace,

Computer Guru
NeoSmart Technologies
http://neosmart.net/blog/


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[Craig-16]

>
> <snip>
> Just food for thought, something to consider, and it's definitely not hard
> seeing as the entire GPL'd plugin platform exists. Should this actually be
> considered, as simple as reviewing the plugin's code, trashing TMCE, and
> shipping WP with Xinha....
>
> (Think of it this way: Way more people will switch to 2.1 when you tell
> them
> there's a new WYSIWYG engine that looks great, has tons of functions, and
> produces 100% valid XHTML!!! =P)

Well, from a non-code-savvy moose, if this indeed is the case, then it gets
a +1 from me, and may even make me feel comfortable to not only tell my
friends that they should use the WYSIWYG editor, but use it myself!

Craig.
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[John Ha [c]]

Computer Guru wrote:
> Moreover, this would be a chance to do something we've long promised
> and talked about: removing the WYSIWYG from the actual WP-Core and
> making it a plugin.

Many users don't use WYSIWYG, so I always wonder why it's in the "core". I'm
all for a lean & mean core, so anything that goes towards achieving this
gets a +1 from me. Everything else can be plugged in IMHO.

John.



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[Ryan Boren]

Computer Guru wrote:
> I've always wondered why WP used TinyMCE as the WYSIWYG editor. It doesn't
> result in the best code, it's not 100% xhtml compatible, it's not _that_
> "tiny," and most importantly, there are better alternatives out there.

Write bugs.  They will be passed to Moxie for fixage.

> (Think of it this way: Way more people will switch to 2.1 when you tell them
> there's a new WYSIWYG engine that looks great, has tons of functions, and
> produces 100% valid XHTML!!! =P)

xinha does look pretty nice, but we're not doing an editor change for
2.1.  There's not enough time for that.

Ryan
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[Computer Guru]

> xinha does look pretty nice, but we're not doing an editor change for
> 2.1.  There's not enough time for that.

All the more reason to tag & branch 2.1, as time goes on more and more
ideas/requests will fall under this category.

Computer Guru
NeoSmart Technologies
http://neosmart.net/blog/

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[Stefano-10]

On Wed, 29 Nov 2006 21:14:49 +0200, Computer Guru
<computerguru@...> wrote:

>> xinha does look pretty nice, but we're not doing an editor change for
>> 2.1.  There's not enough time for that.
>
>All the more reason to tag & branch 2.1, as time goes on more and more
>ideas/requests will fall under this category.

Why not just add a ticket in trac with 2.2 milestone ? :)

--

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Email: steve@... steagl@...
Sites: http://www.40annibuttati.it (personal blog)
       http://www.wordpress-it.it (WordPress Italia)
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[Ryan Boren]

Stefano wrote:
> On Wed, 29 Nov 2006 21:14:49 +0200, Computer Guru
> <computerguru@...> wrote:
>
>>> xinha does look pretty nice, but we're not doing an editor change for
>>> 2.1.  There's not enough time for that.
>> All the more reason to tag & branch 2.1, as time goes on more and more
>> ideas/requests will fall under this category.
>
> Why not just add a ticket in trac with 2.2 milestone ? :)

Even better would be tinyMCE tickets for 2.1. :-)

Ryan

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[Denis de Bernardy]

> Ryan said:
>
> Even better would be tinyMCE tickets for 2.1. :-)

Here you go:

http://trac.wordpress.org/ticket/3407

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[David Weitz-2]

I agree with Ryan that there isn't enough time to be able to ship it out
with 2.1. Although +1 for tagging and branching. Release 2.1 and then have a
branch that includes Xinha and one that has TinyMCE that will be used for
tagging bugfix releases. Any bugfix release can be tagged from the TinyMCE
and the Xinha can be the trunk.

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[Viper007Bond-3]

Agreed, but the executive decision was that people are noobs, so WYSIWYG
editors are good for them.

And Xinha could easily be made into a plugin to replace TinyMCE in the
meantime.

On 11/29/06, John Ha <khanh@...> wrote:

>
> Computer Guru wrote:
> > Moreover, this would be a chance to do something we've long promised
> > and talked about: removing the WYSIWYG from the actual WP-Core and
> > making it a plugin.
>
> Many users don't use WYSIWYG, so I always wonder why it's in the "core".
> I'm
> all for a lean & mean core, so anything that goes towards achieving this
> gets a +1 from me. Everything else can be plugged in IMHO.
>
> John.
>
>
>
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[Matt Mullenweg]

Computer Guru wrote:
> I'm currently using Xinha (http://xinha.python-hosting.com/) to add WYSIWYG
> support to my commenting form, simply because of how many people throw in
> unencoded html characters that cut their post short. It looks great, can be
> configured to be even more minimal than TinyMCE, is compatible with all
> current-generation browsers AFAIK, and most importantly, by using the new
> rendering engine guarantees valid XHTML.

I'm not religiously tied to TinyMCE, but Xinha was pretty fragile in my
playing with it, and overall the codebase seems much less mature. We
have good upstream support from the MCE guys, good repeatable bug
reports (Denis' isn't) usually get fixed.

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  http://photomatt.net | http://wordpress.org
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[Denis de Bernardy]

> Matt Mullenweg:
>
> I'm not religiously tied to TinyMCE, but Xinha was pretty
> fragile in my
> playing with it, and overall the codebase seems much less mature. We
> have good upstream support from the MCE guys, good repeatable bug
> reports (Denis' isn't) usually get fixed.

Sure they are. Send it to whoever is maintaining TinyMCE, he'll readily
reproduce them. If you need anything more specific, though:

If I recall correctly, weird things sprout when you hit the Return key
several times fast enough. Likely due to the way the script manages <p> and
<br> tags, i.e. we've got concurrent calls to the function when users type
too fast, and they produce weird output. The same occurs for other combos,
but this one was the most obvious.

I haven't the slightest clue why the divs come up exactly, but it should be
obvious to whoever created the validation script that, given the reported
bug, empty <div> tags should be corrected as <div></div> rather than plain
<div />.

For the front page bug, paste junk, e.g.:

<html><head><title>yada</title></head><body>yada</body></html>

And see TinyMCE accept the above unchanged instead of grabbing the part in
the body.

Lastly, I don't paste from Word, but a few of my customers certainly do.
They and others expect it to work because it's "bloody obvious" to them that
a list gets formatted as a list no matter where you paste it to or from.
Grab a few lists, tables, indents, etc. from Word97, paste in FCKEditor, it
almost always works. Do the same in TinyMCE, and you almost always need to
edit the resulting html source code. In particular, to remove <div />, <p />
and <script /> tags.

Denis

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[Petit]

Denis de Bernardy wrote:
>> Ryan said:
>>
>> Even better would be tinyMCE tickets for 2.1. :-)
>>    
>
> Here you go:
>
> http://trac.wordpress.org/ticket/3407
>  
Well, that ticket said nothing, but the obvious: Don't paste FrontPage
code into the WordPress editor.
That goes for any other situation as well.
By the way, the link to the FrontPage page ends in space ;)

/Petit
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[Kirk Steffensen]

Denis,

I agree there are bugs in TinyMCE, but I also agree that the TinyMCE folks
have been squashing them fairly quickly.  I built a plugin for TinyMCE
(http://g2image.steffensenfamily.com) that's been used in WPG2
(http://wpg2.galleryembedded.com) for the past six months, so I feel I have
a little credibility on the matter.

That said, I think your specific example is not a good one.  Any editor for
a part of a page should strip out the <html> and <head> tags.  The shell (in
this case WordPress) is responsible for those parts.  The subparts of a page
should not try to have their own <html> and <head> tags, they should only be
a part of the <body> tag.  Unless I'm totally missing what you're trying to
do.

I'm not religiously tied to TinyMCE either.  I can modify my Gallery2 plugin
for any editor with a good plugin system.  If we're going to look at a new
editor, though, I'd recommend a look at FCKEditor, too.  It has fairly wide
support among the other CMS-type software.

I think it is worth noting that one of my favorite "big CMS" projects,
Joomla (http://www.joomla.org) is also using TinyMCE as its default WYSIWYG
editor.  Joomla also has a good plugin system that allows you to choose
other editors, but it is their default, too.

Kirk

-----Original Message-----
From: Denis de Bernardy [mailto:denis@...]
Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 3:25 AM
To: wp-hackers@...
Subject: RE: [wp-hackers] Replacing TinyMCE with Xinha

> Matt Mullenweg:
>
> I'm not religiously tied to TinyMCE, but Xinha was pretty
> fragile in my
> playing with it, and overall the codebase seems much less mature. We
> have good upstream support from the MCE guys, good repeatable bug
> reports (Denis' isn't) usually get fixed.

Sure they are. Send it to whoever is maintaining TinyMCE, he'll readily
reproduce them. If you need anything more specific, though:

If I recall correctly, weird things sprout when you hit the Return key
several times fast enough. Likely due to the way the script manages <p> and
<br> tags, i.e. we've got concurrent calls to the function when users type
too fast, and they produce weird output. The same occurs for other combos,
but this one was the most obvious.

I haven't the slightest clue why the divs come up exactly, but it should be
obvious to whoever created the validation script that, given the reported
bug, empty <div> tags should be corrected as <div></div> rather than plain
<div />.

For the front page bug, paste junk, e.g.:

<html><head><title>yada</title></head><body>yada</body></html>

And see TinyMCE accept the above unchanged instead of grabbing the part in
the body.

Lastly, I don't paste from Word, but a few of my customers certainly do.
They and others expect it to work because it's "bloody obvious" to them that
a list gets formatted as a list no matter where you paste it to or from.
Grab a few lists, tables, indents, etc. from Word97, paste in FCKEditor, it
almost always works. Do the same in TinyMCE, and you almost always need to
edit the resulting html source code. In particular, to remove <div />, <p />
and <script /> tags.

Denis

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[David Weitz-2]

So maybe Xinha can ship as a plugin and put a link on the write page so that
you can switch between the two.

On 11/29/06, Kirk Steffensen <blogger@...> wrote:

>
> Denis,
>
> I agree there are bugs in TinyMCE, but I also agree that the TinyMCE folks
> have been squashing them fairly quickly.  I built a plugin for TinyMCE
> (http://g2image.steffensenfamily.com) that's been used in WPG2
> (http://wpg2.galleryembedded.com) for the past six months, so I feel I
> have
> a little credibility on the matter.
>
> That said, I think your specific example is not a good one.  Any editor
> for
> a part of a page should strip out the <html> and <head> tags.  The shell
> (in
> this case WordPress) is responsible for those parts.  The subparts of a
> page
> should not try to have their own <html> and <head> tags, they should only
> be
> a part of the <body> tag.  Unless I'm totally missing what you're trying
> to
> do.
>
> I'm not religiously tied to TinyMCE either.  I can modify my Gallery2
> plugin
> for any editor with a good plugin system.  If we're going to look at a new
> editor, though, I'd recommend a look at FCKEditor, too.  It has fairly
> wide
> support among the other CMS-type software.
>
> I think it is worth noting that one of my favorite "big CMS" projects,
> Joomla (http://www.joomla.org) is also using TinyMCE as its default
> WYSIWYG
> editor.  Joomla also has a good plugin system that allows you to choose
> other editors, but it is their default, too.
>
> Kirk
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Denis de Bernardy [mailto:denis@...]
> Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 3:25 AM
> To: wp-hackers@...
> Subject: RE: [wp-hackers] Replacing TinyMCE with Xinha
>
> > Matt Mullenweg:
> >
> > I'm not religiously tied to TinyMCE, but Xinha was pretty
> > fragile in my
> > playing with it, and overall the codebase seems much less mature. We
> > have good upstream support from the MCE guys, good repeatable bug
> > reports (Denis' isn't) usually get fixed.
>
> Sure they are. Send it to whoever is maintaining TinyMCE, he'll readily
> reproduce them. If you need anything more specific, though:
>
> If I recall correctly, weird things sprout when you hit the Return key
> several times fast enough. Likely due to the way the script manages <p>
> and
> <br> tags, i.e. we've got concurrent calls to the function when users type
> too fast, and they produce weird output. The same occurs for other combos,
> but this one was the most obvious.
>
> I haven't the slightest clue why the divs come up exactly, but it should
> be
> obvious to whoever created the validation script that, given the reported
> bug, empty <div> tags should be corrected as <div></div> rather than plain
> <div />.
>
> For the front page bug, paste junk, e.g.:
>
> <html><head><title>yada</title></head><body>yada</body></html>
>
> And see TinyMCE accept the above unchanged instead of grabbing the part in
> the body.
>
> Lastly, I don't paste from Word, but a few of my customers certainly do.
> They and others expect it to work because it's "bloody obvious" to them
> that
> a list gets formatted as a list no matter where you paste it to or from.
> Grab a few lists, tables, indents, etc. from Word97, paste in FCKEditor,
> it
> almost always works. Do the same in TinyMCE, and you almost always need to
> edit the resulting html source code. In particular, to remove <div />, <p
> />
> and <script /> tags.
>
> Denis
>
> _______________________________________________
> wp-hackers mailing list
> wp-hackers@...
> http://lists.automattic.com/mailman/listinfo/wp-hackers
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.14.19/556 - Release Date:
> 11/28/2006
>
>
> --
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> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.14.19/556 - Release Date:
> 11/28/2006
>
>
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[Viper007Bond-3]

I vote for one or the other, not both in the core. Stick the other in a
plugin.

On 11/29/06, Dave W <dabbaking@...> wrote:

>
> So maybe Xinha can ship as a plugin and put a link on the write page so
> that
> you can switch between the two.
>
> On 11/29/06, Kirk Steffensen <blogger@...> wrote:
> >
> > Denis,
> >
> > I agree there are bugs in TinyMCE, but I also agree that the TinyMCE
> folks
> > have been squashing them fairly quickly.  I built a plugin for TinyMCE
> > (http://g2image.steffensenfamily.com) that's been used in WPG2
> > (http://wpg2.galleryembedded.com) for the past six months, so I feel I
> > have
> > a little credibility on the matter.
> >
> > That said, I think your specific example is not a good one.  Any editor
> > for
> > a part of a page should strip out the <html> and <head> tags.  The shell
> > (in
> > this case WordPress) is responsible for those parts.  The subparts of a
> > page
> > should not try to have their own <html> and <head> tags, they should
> only
> > be
> > a part of the <body> tag.  Unless I'm totally missing what you're trying
> > to
> > do.
> >
> > I'm not religiously tied to TinyMCE either.  I can modify my Gallery2
> > plugin
> > for any editor with a good plugin system.  If we're going to look at a
> new
> > editor, though, I'd recommend a look at FCKEditor, too.  It has fairly
> > wide
> > support among the other CMS-type software.
> >
> > I think it is worth noting that one of my favorite "big CMS" projects,
> > Joomla (http://www.joomla.org) is also using TinyMCE as its default
> > WYSIWYG
> > editor.  Joomla also has a good plugin system that allows you to choose
> > other editors, but it is their default, too.
> >
> > Kirk
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Denis de Bernardy [mailto:denis@...]
> > Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 3:25 AM
> > To: wp-hackers@...
> > Subject: RE: [wp-hackers] Replacing TinyMCE with Xinha
> >
> > > Matt Mullenweg:
> > >
> > > I'm not religiously tied to TinyMCE, but Xinha was pretty
> > > fragile in my
> > > playing with it, and overall the codebase seems much less mature. We
> > > have good upstream support from the MCE guys, good repeatable bug
> > > reports (Denis' isn't) usually get fixed.
> >
> > Sure they are. Send it to whoever is maintaining TinyMCE, he'll readily
> > reproduce them. If you need anything more specific, though:
> >
> > If I recall correctly, weird things sprout when you hit the Return key
> > several times fast enough. Likely due to the way the script manages <p>
> > and
> > <br> tags, i.e. we've got concurrent calls to the function when users
> type
> > too fast, and they produce weird output. The same occurs for other
> combos,
> > but this one was the most obvious.
> >
> > I haven't the slightest clue why the divs come up exactly, but it should
> > be
> > obvious to whoever created the validation script that, given the
> reported
> > bug, empty <div> tags should be corrected as <div></div> rather than
> plain
> > <div />.
> >
> > For the front page bug, paste junk, e.g.:
> >
> > <html><head><title>yada</title></head><body>yada</body></html>
> >
> > And see TinyMCE accept the above unchanged instead of grabbing the part
> in
> > the body.
> >
> > Lastly, I don't paste from Word, but a few of my customers certainly do.
> > They and others expect it to work because it's "bloody obvious" to them
> > that
> > a list gets formatted as a list no matter where you paste it to or from.
> > Grab a few lists, tables, indents, etc. from Word97, paste in FCKEditor,
> > it
> > almost always works. Do the same in TinyMCE, and you almost always need
> to
> > edit the resulting html source code. In particular, to remove <div />,
> <p
> > />
> > and <script /> tags.
> >
> > Denis
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > wp-hackers mailing list
> > wp-hackers@...
> > http://lists.automattic.com/mailman/listinfo/wp-hackers
> >
> > --
> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.14.19/556 - Release Date:
> > 11/28/2006
> >
> >
> > --
> > No virus found in this outgoing message.
> > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.14.19/556 - Release Date:
> > 11/28/2006
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > wp-hackers mailing list
> > wp-hackers@...
> > http://lists.automattic.com/mailman/listinfo/wp-hackers
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Dave W
> _______________________________________________
> wp-hackers mailing list
> wp-hackers@...
> http://lists.automattic.com/mailman/listinfo/wp-hackers
>

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[John Ha [c]]

I vote for both as plugins and none in the core.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Viper007Bond" <viper@...>
To: <wp-hackers@...>
Sent: Thursday, 30 November 2006 1:35 PM
Subject: Re: [wp-hackers] Replacing TinyMCE with Xinha

>I vote for one or the other, not both in the core. Stick the other in a
> plugin.
>
> On 11/29/06, Dave W <dabbaking@...> wrote:
>>
>> So maybe Xinha can ship as a plugin and put a link on the write page so
>> that
>> you can switch between the two.
>>
>> On 11/29/06, Kirk Steffensen <blogger@...> wrote:
>> >
>> > Denis,
>> >
>> > I agree there are bugs in TinyMCE, but I also agree that the TinyMCE
>> folks
>> > have been squashing them fairly quickly.  I built a plugin for TinyMCE
>> > (http://g2image.steffensenfamily.com) that's been used in WPG2
>> > (http://wpg2.galleryembedded.com) for the past six months, so I feel I
>> > have
>> > a little credibility on the matter.
>> >
>> > That said, I think your specific example is not a good one.  Any editor
>> > for
>> > a part of a page should strip out the <html> and <head> tags.  The
>> > shell
>> > (in
>> > this case WordPress) is responsible for those parts.  The subparts of a
>> > page
>> > should not try to have their own <html> and <head> tags, they should
>> only
>> > be
>> > a part of the <body> tag.  Unless I'm totally missing what you're
>> > trying
>> > to
>> > do.
>> >
>> > I'm not religiously tied to TinyMCE either.  I can modify my Gallery2
>> > plugin
>> > for any editor with a good plugin system.  If we're going to look at a
>> new
>> > editor, though, I'd recommend a look at FCKEditor, too.  It has fairly
>> > wide
>> > support among the other CMS-type software.
>> >
>> > I think it is worth noting that one of my favorite "big CMS" projects,
>> > Joomla (http://www.joomla.org) is also using TinyMCE as its default
>> > WYSIWYG
>> > editor.  Joomla also has a good plugin system that allows you to choose
>> > other editors, but it is their default, too.
>> >
>> > Kirk
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: Denis de Bernardy [mailto:denis@...]
>> > Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 3:25 AM
>> > To: wp-hackers@...
>> > Subject: RE: [wp-hackers] Replacing TinyMCE with Xinha
>> >
>> > > Matt Mullenweg:
>> > >
>> > > I'm not religiously tied to TinyMCE, but Xinha was pretty
>> > > fragile in my
>> > > playing with it, and overall the codebase seems much less mature. We
>> > > have good upstream support from the MCE guys, good repeatable bug
>> > > reports (Denis' isn't) usually get fixed.
>> >
>> > Sure they are. Send it to whoever is maintaining TinyMCE, he'll readily
>> > reproduce them. If you need anything more specific, though:
>> >
>> > If I recall correctly, weird things sprout when you hit the Return key
>> > several times fast enough. Likely due to the way the script manages <p>
>> > and
>> > <br> tags, i.e. we've got concurrent calls to the function when users
>> type
>> > too fast, and they produce weird output. The same occurs for other
>> combos,
>> > but this one was the most obvious.
>> >
>> > I haven't the slightest clue why the divs come up exactly, but it
>> > should
>> > be
>> > obvious to whoever created the validation script that, given the
>> reported
>> > bug, empty <div> tags should be corrected as <div></div> rather than
>> plain
>> > <div />.
>> >
>> > For the front page bug, paste junk, e.g.:
>> >
>> > <html><head><title>yada</title></head><body>yada</body></html>
>> >
>> > And see TinyMCE accept the above unchanged instead of grabbing the part
>> in
>> > the body.
>> >
>> > Lastly, I don't paste from Word, but a few of my customers certainly
>> > do.
>> > They and others expect it to work because it's "bloody obvious" to them
>> > that
>> > a list gets formatted as a list no matter where you paste it to or
>> > from.
>> > Grab a few lists, tables, indents, etc. from Word97, paste in
>> > FCKEditor,
>> > it
>> > almost always works. Do the same in TinyMCE, and you almost always need
>> to
>> > edit the resulting html source code. In particular, to remove <div />,
>> <p
>> > />
>> > and <script /> tags.
>> >
>> > Denis
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > wp-hackers mailing list
>> > wp-hackers@...
>> > http://lists.automattic.com/mailman/listinfo/wp-hackers
>> >
>> > --
>> > No virus found in this incoming message.
>> > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>> > Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.14.19/556 - Release Date:
>> > 11/28/2006
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > No virus found in this outgoing message.
>> > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>> > Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.14.19/556 - Release Date:
>> > 11/28/2006
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > wp-hackers mailing list
>> > wp-hackers@...
>> > http://lists.automattic.com/mailman/listinfo/wp-hackers
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Dave W
>> _______________________________________________
>> wp-hackers mailing list
>> wp-hackers@...
>> http://lists.automattic.com/mailman/listinfo/wp-hackers
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Viper007Bond | http://www.viper007bond.com/
> _______________________________________________
> wp-hackers mailing list
> wp-hackers@...
> http://lists.automattic.com/mailman/listinfo/wp-hackers
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[Kirk Steffensen]

-1 from me for no WYSIWYG in core.  

Normal people (non-coder geeks like us) want to be able to just use
WordPress for blogging.  (My wife is a perfect example.  She's the reason I
wrote my plugin.)  They don't want to have to learn HTML.  Photos are nice,
too, so long as they don't have to learn HTML to do it.

It's easy enough to disable the WYSIWYG if you don't like it.  (And only a
coder geek usually bothers to figure out how to disable it.  I proudly
include myself in the "coder geek" category, although I do use TinyMCE when
I'm writing my blog entries.)

Kirk

-----Original Message-----
From: John Ha [mailto:khanh@...]
Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 5:57 AM
To: wp-hackers@...
Subject: Re: [wp-hackers] Replacing TinyMCE with Xinha

I vote for both as plugins and none in the core.

--
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Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.14.19/556 - Release Date: 11/28/2006
 

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[John Ha [c]]

Include as a plugin, like Akismet. It will still be there to activate if you
need it. I'm not arguing against including WYSIWYG with WP. I guess when I
think of core code, I think of bare essentials, especially when the system
already employs a plugin framework. WYSIWYG is non-essential code, therefore
should be a plugin. The plugin is a click away from activation. Or ship WP
with tinyMCE (or Xinha) plugin pre-activated.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Kirk Steffensen" <blogger@...>
To: <wp-hackers@...>
Sent: Thursday, 30 November 2006 2:49 PM
Subject: RE: [wp-hackers] Replacing TinyMCE with Xinha

> -1 from me for no WYSIWYG in core.
>
> Normal people (non-coder geeks like us) want to be able to just use
> WordPress for blogging.  (My wife is a perfect example.  She's the reason
> I
> wrote my plugin.)  They don't want to have to learn HTML.  Photos are
> nice,
> too, so long as they don't have to learn HTML to do it.
>
> It's easy enough to disable the WYSIWYG if you don't like it.  (And only a
> coder geek usually bothers to figure out how to disable it.  I proudly
> include myself in the "coder geek" category, although I do use TinyMCE
> when
> I'm writing my blog entries.)
>
> Kirk
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: John Ha [mailto:khanh@...]
> Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 5:57 AM
> To: wp-hackers@...
> Subject: Re: [wp-hackers] Replacing TinyMCE with Xinha
>
> I vote for both as plugins and none in the core.
>
> --
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.14.19/556 - Release Date:
> 11/28/2006
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> wp-hackers mailing list
> wp-hackers@...
> http://lists.automattic.com/mailman/listinfo/wp-hackers
>

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[Chris Williams-9]

WYSIWIG is different from Akismet.  You might not need akismet if you
have a small, local blog, or are just starting out.

But those are the people who definitely want/need a WYSIWIG.  WP is so
darn proud of the "five minute install" (and rightfully so), a good
WYSIWIG is a key part of the same message, IMHO.

So plug-in or not, I think it needs to be there from the start.

-----Original Message-----
From: John Ha
Subject: Re: [wp-hackers] Replacing TinyMCE with Xinha

Include as a plugin, like Akismet. It will still be there to activate if
you
need it. I'm not arguing against including WYSIWYG with WP. I guess when
I
think of core code, I think of bare essentials, especially when the
system
already employs a plugin framework. WYSIWYG is non-essential code,
therefore
should be a plugin. The plugin is a click away from activation. Or ship
WP
with tinyMCE (or Xinha) plugin pre-activated.
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