Replacing TinyMCE with Xinha

[Robin Adrianse]

Just because it's in a plugin that's shipped with the core doesn't mean it
won't be there. It can be activated automatically, so Joe Blogger can still
have the WYSIWYG but people, like me and a lot of code-savvy people, can
deactivate it easily.

On 11/29/06, Kirk Steffensen <blogger@...> wrote:

>
> -1 from me for no WYSIWYG in core.
>
> Normal people (non-coder geeks like us) want to be able to just use
> WordPress for blogging.  (My wife is a perfect example.  She's the reason
> I
> wrote my plugin.)  They don't want to have to learn HTML.  Photos are
> nice,
> too, so long as they don't have to learn HTML to do it.
>
> It's easy enough to disable the WYSIWYG if you don't like it.  (And only a
> coder geek usually bothers to figure out how to disable it.  I proudly
> include myself in the "coder geek" category, although I do use TinyMCE
> when
> I'm writing my blog entries.)
>
> Kirk
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: John Ha [mailto:khanh@...]
> Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 5:57 AM
> To: wp-hackers@...
> Subject: Re: [wp-hackers] Replacing TinyMCE with Xinha
>
> I vote for both as plugins and none in the core.
>
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[Joey B]

We've only had this Make TinyMCE a Plugin v. Keep It In the Core fight
about 5000 times now. I don't think this thread was made to bring on
this argument (again... browse the archives
<http://comox.textdrive.com/pipermail/wp-hackers/> if you want). So
let's keep it that way, please?

Taking it back to the topic, +1 if Xinha truly is lighter and better.
I'd love for WP to ditch the bulkiness and bugginess of tinyMCE for
something better.

--
Joey Brooks
Milk Carton Designs || milkcartondesigns.com
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[John Ha [c]]

I'm not sure about the last instalment, but since it's brought up again, I
thought I'd put in my 2 cents. And yes, the thread did start out with this
premise in mind...

> Moreover, this would be a chance to do something we've long promised and
> talked about: removing the WYSIWYG from the actual WP-Core and making it a
> plugin.

It won't matter which WYSIWYG editor to include with WP, because if they are
both plugins then either can be activated at the discretion of the user. But
for those fanatical tinyMCE fans out there, I don't see a problem with
pre-activating a tinyMCE plugin at install time. And for purists like
myself, it just makes it a little easier just to deactivate it if I don't
use it.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Joey B" <tunicwriter@...>
To: <wp-hackers@...>
Sent: Thursday, 30 November 2006 3:31 PM
Subject: Re: [wp-hackers] Replacing TinyMCE with Xinha

> We've only had this Make TinyMCE a Plugin v. Keep It In the Core fight
> about 5000 times now. I don't think this thread was made to bring on
> this argument (again... browse the archives
> <http://comox.textdrive.com/pipermail/wp-hackers/> if you want). So
> let's keep it that way, please?
>
> Taking it back to the topic, +1 if Xinha truly is lighter and better.
> I'd love for WP to ditch the bulkiness and bugginess of tinyMCE for
> something better.
>
> --
> Joey Brooks
> Milk Carton Designs || milkcartondesigns.com
> _______________________________________________
> wp-hackers mailing list
> wp-hackers@...
> http://lists.automattic.com/mailman/listinfo/wp-hackers
>

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[Viper007Bond-3]

A few things.

* A WYSIWYG editor in the core is here to stay. Stop wasting your breath.
Read this if you're interested in the details:
http://trac.wordpress.org/ticket/3256

* The TinyMCE folder can be deleted (if you don't want to upload it) and it
won't result in any problems thanks to this ticket/changeset added to 2.1 a
month ago: http://trac.wordpress.org/ticket/3272

And yes, back to the topic of TinyMCE vs. Xinha...

>From a writer's standpoint, I use neither, so I couldn't care less.
>From a coder's standpoint, I have things hooking into TinyMCE and switching
to another editor would make me and a lot of other people have to recode
their plugins. Speaking of which, can you even easily add stuff to Xinha?
That's a pretty big requirement.

-Viper
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[Computer Guru]

What do you mean by "add stuff to Xinha?"
Plugins? Hooks? Yes.

Computer Guru
NeoSmart Technologies
http://neosmart.net/blog/

> -----Original Message-----
> From: wp-hackers-bounces@... [mailto:wp-hackers-
> bounces@...] On Behalf Of Viper007Bond
> Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 7:56 AM
> To: wp-hackers@...
> Subject: Re: [wp-hackers] Replacing TinyMCE with Xinha
>
> A few things.
>
> * A WYSIWYG editor in the core is here to stay. Stop wasting your
> breath.
> Read this if you're interested in the details:
> http://trac.wordpress.org/ticket/3256
>
> * The TinyMCE folder can be deleted (if you don't want to upload it)
> and it
> won't result in any problems thanks to this ticket/changeset added to
> 2.1 a
> month ago: http://trac.wordpress.org/ticket/3272
>
> And yes, back to the topic of TinyMCE vs. Xinha...
>
> >From a writer's standpoint, I use neither, so I couldn't care less.
> >From a coder's standpoint, I have things hooking into TinyMCE and
> switching
> to another editor would make me and a lot of other people have to
> recode
> their plugins. Speaking of which, can you even easily add stuff to
> Xinha?
> That's a pretty big requirement.
>
> -Viper
> _______________________________________________
> wp-hackers mailing list
> wp-hackers@...
> http://lists.automattic.com/mailman/listinfo/wp-hackers

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[Viper007Bond-3]

Buttons mainly.

On 11/29/06, Computer Guru <computerguru@...> wrote:

>
> What do you mean by "add stuff to Xinha?"
> Plugins? Hooks? Yes.
>
> Computer Guru
> NeoSmart Technologies
> http://neosmart.net/blog/
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: wp-hackers-bounces@... [mailto:wp-hackers-
> > bounces@...] On Behalf Of Viper007Bond
> > Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 7:56 AM
> > To: wp-hackers@...
> > Subject: Re: [wp-hackers] Replacing TinyMCE with Xinha
> >
> > A few things.
> >
> > * A WYSIWYG editor in the core is here to stay. Stop wasting your
> > breath.
> > Read this if you're interested in the details:
> > http://trac.wordpress.org/ticket/3256
> >
> > * The TinyMCE folder can be deleted (if you don't want to upload it)
> > and it
> > won't result in any problems thanks to this ticket/changeset added to
> > 2.1 a
> > month ago: http://trac.wordpress.org/ticket/3272
> >
> > And yes, back to the topic of TinyMCE vs. Xinha...
> >
> > >From a writer's standpoint, I use neither, so I couldn't care less.
> > >From a coder's standpoint, I have things hooking into TinyMCE and
> > switching
> > to another editor would make me and a lot of other people have to
> > recode
> > their plugins. Speaking of which, can you even easily add stuff to
> > Xinha?
> > That's a pretty big requirement.
> >
> > -Viper
> > _______________________________________________
> > wp-hackers mailing list
> > wp-hackers@...
> > http://lists.automattic.com/mailman/listinfo/wp-hackers
>
> _______________________________________________
> wp-hackers mailing list
> wp-hackers@...
> http://lists.automattic.com/mailman/listinfo/wp-hackers
>

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[Computer Guru]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: wp-hackers-bounces@... [mailto:wp-hackers-
> bounces@...] On Behalf Of Viper007Bond
> Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 8:11 AM
> To: wp-hackers@...
> Subject: Re: [wp-hackers] Replacing TinyMCE with Xinha
>
> Buttons mainly.
>
> On 11/29/06, Computer Guru <computerguru@...> wrote:
> >
> > What do you mean by "add stuff to Xinha?"
> > Plugins? Hooks? Yes.
> >

Yes.

Computer Guru
NeoSmart Technologies
http://neosmart.net/blog/

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[John Ha [c]]

> * A WYSIWYG editor in the core is here to stay. Stop wasting your breath.
> Read this if you're interested in the details:
> http://trac.wordpress.org/ticket/3256

After having a look at the ticket, it seems the person that closed it didn't
fully comprehend the issue. No one disputed the fact that it was "too
valuable to the target audience". The question was whether it should have
been in the *core*. sheesh!

> * The TinyMCE folder can be deleted (if you don't want to upload it) and
> it
> won't result in any problems thanks to this ticket/changeset added to 2.1
> a
> month ago: http://trac.wordpress.org/ticket/3272

"Code is poetry". I don't see anything too poetic or elegant about this
solution, but it's still a solution I guess.



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[Viper007Bond-3]

On 11/29/06, John Ha <khanh@...> wrote:

>
> > * A WYSIWYG editor in the core is here to stay. Stop wasting your
> breath.
> > Read this if you're interested in the details:
> > http://trac.wordpress.org/ticket/3256
>
> After having a look at the ticket, it seems the person that closed it
> didn't
> fully comprehend the issue. No one disputed the fact that it was "too
> valuable to the target audience". The question was whether it should have
> been in the *core*. sheesh!

This looks pretty cut and dry to me:

http://comox.textdrive.com/pipermail/wp-hackers/2006-September/008393.html
http://comox.textdrive.com/pipermail/wp-hackers/2006-September/008463.html

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[Mark Jaquith]

On Nov 30, 2006, at 12:51 AM, John Ha wrote:

> It won't matter which WYSIWYG editor to include with WP, because if  
> they are both plugins then either can be activated at the  
> discretion of the user. But for those fanatical tinyMCE fans out  
> there, I don't see a problem with pre-activating a tinyMCE plugin  
> at install time. And for purists like myself, it just makes it a  
> little easier just to deactivate it if I don't use it.

That's basically how it works now.  All you have to do is delete the /
wp-includes/js/tinymce/ folder and it will be gone.  I specifically  
put in code making sure that simple deletion of TinyMCE would result  
in a graceful disappearance.  My little gift to fellow <textarea />  
purists.

--
Mark Jaquith
http://txfx.net/


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[John Ha [c]]

From: "Viper007Bond" <viper@...>
> This looks pretty cut and dry to me:
>
> http://comox.textdrive.com/pipermail/wp-hackers/2006-September/008393.html

The discussion wasn't whether it was buggy or not.

> http://comox.textdrive.com/pipermail/wp-hackers/2006-September/008463.html

I agree that we need to focus development on the needs of the average user.
Bundling non-essential features in a pre-activated plugin will not negate
that. The average user will go to the write screen and still notice a nifty
RTE.

At the end of the day, this discussion is moot if the powers that be have
set their mind on tinyMCE being core.



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[Andy Beard]

Here is a semi-noob look at this, as I class myself as technically aware rather than a programmer.

Most of my installations are running WP2.0.4 now. I didn't upgrade to 2.0.5 because there was a reported bug that slipped through, and whilst Mark created a plugin to fix it, as a user I would expect 2.0.5.1 or 2.0.6 to be released a few days later to clear up the problem.

I haven't received notification of this, so I am still running old code. I don't live in Trac, but maybe the 2.0.5 distribution was patched without notification.

I tried using TinyMCE for a while, but after a number of disasters with the formatting of posts that were only visible after they were published, I don't trust it enough to use it on any live blog, and I haven't got a huge amount of time for testing it specifically to be able to provide useful bug reports.

If something works sufficiently well to use it on a day to day basis, and I can just drop someone an email to report a bug rather than wading through trac, I am much more inclined to report bugs.

As an example of that, I have reported 2 important bugs to MyBlogLog in the past couple of days, and each time I received a nice email back, actually from the owner thanking me.
In Firefox there is some form of automatic reporting, I don't have to go to a special place to send crash data.

I don't expect personal thankyou notes for reporting Wordpress bugs, but maybe there is a need for an easier reporting method. A built in bug report form and someone at the other end who enters data into trac?

WYSIWYG editors are good for noobs, if they don't make a total abortion of simple code that might prove impossible for a noob to fix.

Here is an example I just created

http://andybeard.eu/2006/08/backdated-post-to-demo-tinymce-bug.html

I stopped using TinyMCE when this happened to me twice when I didn't notice it until the next day, and then further to that when I had to manually go through 2 long posts fixing all the junk strong tags that had been added. Actually one of those posts I ended up re-editing for strong tags 3 times before it was finally published.
I also had to go through the added pain of working out how to persuade Feedburner to refetch my feed after it had been already notified, but hopefully before the feed had been picked up in too many places and cached.

The bug doesn't display in the WYSIWYG editor, only in the preview, but if all you have done is changed some line spacing, there is a good chance you won't pick it up before publishing. A newbie wouldn't know how to fix it.

Maybe things like this are fixed in the version of TinyMCE that is in 2.0.5 but because I am not inclined to update to a version that has been reported as being bugged in other ways, I won't find out.

If it was a plugin, I am sure I would have updated it by now

[Peter Westwood]

On Thu, November 30, 2006 11:07 am, Andy Beard wrote:

>
> Here is a semi-noob look at this, as I class myself as technically aware
> rather than a programmer.
>
> Most of my installations are running WP2.0.4 now. I didn't upgrade to
> 2.0.5
> because there was a reported bug that slipped through, and whilst Mark
> created a plugin to fix it, as a user I would expect 2.0.5.1 or 2.0.6 to
> be
> released a few days later to clear up the problem.
>

I don't see the need for a quick 2.0.5.1 / 2.0.6 in this case - the issue
is minor and only affects a limited user base - Mark's plugin provides the
fix for you _if_you need it.

Don't forget 2.0.5 contained security updates.

> I haven't received notification of this, so I am still running old code. I
> don't live in Trac, but maybe the 2.0.5 distribution was patched without
> notification.
>

No it wasn't - and that wouldn't be good (/me remembers the support
nightmare the one time long ago the download zip file was updated as bugs
in the release where found - the people providing support in IRC found
there code didn't match what people had just downloaded - it was a
nightmare!)

> I tried using TinyMCE for a while, but after a number of disasters with
> the
> formatting of posts that were only visible after they were published, I
> don't trust it enough to use it on any live blog, and I haven't got a huge
> amount of time for testing it specifically to be able to provide useful
> bug
> reports.
>
> If something works sufficiently well to use it on a day to day basis, and
> I
> can just drop someone an email to report a bug rather than wading through
> trac, I am much more inclined to report bugs.
>

Reporting by email only really works on small projects - trac is where we
as a community collect, triage and fix issues - if you really want to
report by email then wp-testers is the place to go - people on that list
will take you issue suggest a fix (and create the trac ticket for you if
your lucky)

westi
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[Andy Beard]

Peter Westwood wrote:

I don't see the need for a quick 2.0.5.1 / 2.0.6 in this case - the issue
is minor and only affects a limited user base - Mark's plugin provides the
fix for you _if_you need it.

Marks plugin clearly wasn't official, and the way it read to me was that there was a chance of an official version in the very near future.
Some of the installation instructions require more than most newbie skills. A newbie is just going to hit the upgrade button in Fantastico.

As for wp-testers, it represents 0.1% of the Wordpress userbase. Has the number of users grown in proportion to the userbase? I doubt it very much.
What percentage of the testers list are normal users rather than programmers? Having to join a mailing list to report a bug is not going to inspire most users.

[Doug Stewart]

On 11/30/06, Andy Beard <list.andy@...> wrote:
>
>
> Having to join a mailing list to report a bug is not going to
> inspire most users.



You don't, and in fact, I'm sure the rest of the wp-hackers mailing list
agrees that we'd really rather you _didn't_ sign up for the list to report
bugs.  It's not what the list is for and people are simply going to redirect
you to Trac anyways.




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[John Ha [c]]

> Having to join a mailing list to report a bug is not going to inspire most
> users.

Exactly, especially if they are the same users who find difficulty in
activating an RTE plugin in the first place.



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