Responding to unsubscribed posters

[Barbara Duprey]

Just a thought -- there is a link that can be provided into the archives
for a particular thread. What if either (in order of preference) the
list manager, a moderator, or anybody on the list who knows how, sent a
message to the unsubscribed poster containing that link? The poster
would not have to subscribe (thereby getting what could potentially be a
dismaying number of messages -- and often leading to a "please
unsubscribe me" message). Yet they'd be able to follow the discussion,
wouldn't they, to see any responses on the thread?

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[John Kaufmann]

In a message dated 2009.11.01 11:11 -0500, Barbara Duprey wrote:

> Just a thought -- there is a link that can be provided into the archives
> for a particular thread. What if either (in order of preference) the
> list manager, a moderator, or anybody on the list who knows how, sent a
> message to the unsubscribed poster containing that link? The poster
> would not have to subscribe (thereby getting what could potentially be a
> dismaying number of messages -- and often leading to a "please
> unsubscribe me" message). Yet they'd be able to follow the discussion,
> wouldn't they, to see any responses on the thread?

Barbara, thanks for that reminder of why users are allowed to post
without subscribing - presumably someone has made the judgment that it
is more friendly to new users, in a paradigm that says a mailing list
must choose between:
(1) subscribing to post, subjecting a new user to many more emails than
those which address his question;
(2) posting without subscribing, which means the new user may not see
the answer to his question.

Most lists choose (1). This list chooses (2), and your elegant
suggestion tries to compensate for that well-intended but troublesome
(and possibly misguided) policy.  But how and when would that be done? -
(a) Immediately when an unsubscribed user posts a question, in reply to
the original post?  If so, how would the user know when the thread has
received a new post, including possibly an answer?
(b) Each time something is posted in that thread?  If we can do that,
why not just (or also) forward the post?

That latter alternative (b) seems to require a mechanism to keep track
of posts by unsubscribed users and, when a post comes to the list, not
only forward it to the subscribed list, but also check it against
another list of unsubscribed posts for special handling.  That sent me
to the ezmlm manual <http://www.ezmlm.org/manual/> to see what is
possible within the package without extension.  I did not find a good
handle on this, but there are lots of people who know much more about
both ezmlm and database programming, so maybe it's easier than I suppose.

I would love to see a solution to this problem, because it would
probably also go far toward alleviating the other problem that takes up
far too much of the list bandwidth: Unsubscribing, or as called most
recently, "CANCELLATION".  The irony is that a list policy that may be
designed to avoid burdening new users with lots of irrelevant (to them)
emails has the effect of burdening the whole list with lots of
irrelevant (to everyone) emails.  There has to be a better way.

John
--
BTW, that search for an ezmlm solution was not without reward: It led to
Untroubled Software <http://untroubled.org/>, home of ezmlm-browse and
one of the treasures of the web.

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[Barbara Duprey]

John Kaufmann wrote:

> In a message dated 2009.11.01 11:11 -0500, Barbara Duprey wrote:
>
>> Just a thought -- there is a link that can be provided into the
>> archives for a particular thread. What if either (in order of
>> preference) the list manager, a moderator, or anybody on the list who
>> knows how, sent a message to the unsubscribed poster containing that
>> link? The poster would not have to subscribe (thereby getting what
>> could potentially be a dismaying number of messages -- and often
>> leading to a "please unsubscribe me" message). Yet they'd be able to
>> follow the discussion, wouldn't they, to see any responses on the
>> thread?
>
> Barbara, thanks for that reminder of why users are allowed to post
> without subscribing - presumably someone has made the judgment that it
> is more friendly to new users, in a paradigm that says a mailing list
> must choose between:
> (1) subscribing to post, subjecting a new user to many more emails
> than those which address his question;
> (2) posting without subscribing, which means the new user may not see
> the answer to his question.
>
> Most lists choose (1). This list chooses (2), and your elegant
> suggestion tries to compensate for that well-intended but troublesome
> (and possibly misguided) policy.  But how and when would that be done? -
> (a) Immediately when an unsubscribed user posts a question, in reply
> to the original post?  If so, how would the user know when the thread
> has received a new post, including possibly an answer?

This is when I think it would be reasonable, and there is already a list
manager that could potentially do it automatically, and a moderator who
has to choose to allow the post and could also provide the link. I agree
that the user would have to keep checking back to see if anything useful
has been said, but they could be told to do this, and they'd have the
link to make it easy. I think this is preferable to having the forced
subscription, because the volume of mail heere tends to dismay many
newbies and most of what they'd see would not be pertinent to their
specific question. The response that includes the link could say
something like, "To see any further discussion relative to your post,
keep checking this link (....); you will not automatically receive the
responses. If you would like to participate in other aspects of the
mailing list, like following other topics and perhaps responding to
questions from others as you become more familiar with OpenOffice.org,
please consider subscribing to the list by sending an e-mail to
users-subscribe@.... Note that this list typically receives
20 to 40 posts each day, and it is recommended that you set your e-mail
client to send this traffic to a mailbox separate from your normal
mail." If the list manager did this, we wouldn't have to worry about
who's subscribed or not, and the list wouldn't have to see this
boilerplate at all. If the moderator did it, the list should be copied
so we'd know it had happened. Otherwise, one of us who has an easy way
to see if the user is subscribed, and can cite the link, could reply,
copying the list.

> (b) Each time something is posted in that thread?  If we can do that,
> why not just (or also) forward the post?
>
> That latter alternative (b) seems to require a mechanism to keep track
> of posts by unsubscribed users and, when a post comes to the list, not
> only forward it to the subscribed list, but also check it against
> another list of unsubscribed posts for special handling.  That sent me
> to the ezmlm manual <http://www.ezmlm.org/manual/> to see what is
> possible within the package without extension.  I did not find a good
> handle on this, but there are lots of people who know much more about
> both ezmlm and database programming, so maybe it's easier than I suppose.

This sounds like an undesirable increase in overhead, and either too
much manual handling, or changes to the list management that have been
discussed many times here with no resolution. I've forwarded posts in
the past when they seem to have useful answers for the poster, but as
you have seen, some people object to this for various reasons. So the
compromise position seems to be a post calling the responder's attention
to the fact that the OP was not subscribed. Responders who are aware of
the situation generally copy the OP directly, but that's pretty easy to
forget, even if you know about it. Hence all sorts of additional list
traffic....

>
> I would love to see a solution to this problem, because it would
> probably also go far toward alleviating the other problem that takes
> up far too much of the list bandwidth: Unsubscribing, or as called
> most recently, "CANCELLATION".  The irony is that a list policy that
> may be designed to avoid burdening new users with lots of irrelevant
> (to them) emails has the effect of burdening the whole list with lots
> of irrelevant (to everyone) emails.  There has to be a better way.
>
> John

I'm really hoping the initial response above is a better solution! By
the way, the "CANCELLATION" post was atypical in that it came from an
account that was not itself subscribed, but apparently was getting the
e-mails via forwarding or some other means. Most of these are from
people who should probably never have subscribed in the first place, and
didn't really understand the consequences, but did not know any other
way to get responses. (And also didn't read the "Welcome" e-mail, but
that's another story....)

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[James E. Lang-3]

--On Sunday, November 01, 2009 10:11:27 AM -0600 Barbara Duprey <Barb@...>
wrote:

> Just a thought -- there is a link that can be provided into the archives for
> a particular thread. What if either (in order of preference) the list
> manager, a moderator, or anybody on the list who knows how, sent a message to
> the unsubscribed poster containing that link? The poster would not have to
> subscribe (thereby getting what could potentially be a dismaying number of
> messages -- and often leading to a "please unsubscribe me" message). Yet
> they'd be able to follow the discussion, wouldn't they, to see any responses
> on the thread?

I don't know if it is doable to send an automatic reply to anyone who starts a
new thread saying, "http://... can be used to monitor this message and its
responses." An alternative would be to only send this message to those who are
unsubscribed at the time they start the new thread. This is a short and sweet
message and if it can be automated it will place little burden on any person or
resource.

--
Jim

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[Barbara Duprey]

James E. Lang wrote:

> --On Sunday, November 01, 2009 10:11:27 AM -0600 Barbara Duprey
> <Barb@...> wrote:
>
>> Just a thought -- there is a link that can be provided into the
>> archives for
>> a particular thread. What if either (in order of preference) the list
>> manager, a moderator, or anybody on the list who knows how, sent a
>> message to
>> the unsubscribed poster containing that link? The poster would not
>> have to
>> subscribe (thereby getting what could potentially be a dismaying
>> number of
>> messages -- and often leading to a "please unsubscribe me" message). Yet
>> they'd be able to follow the discussion, wouldn't they, to see any
>> responses
>> on the thread?
>
> I don't know if it is doable to send an automatic reply to anyone who
> starts a new thread saying, "http://... can be used to monitor this
> message and its responses." An alternative would be to only send this
> message to those who are unsubscribed at the time they start the new
> thread. This is a short and sweet message and if it can be automated
> it will place little burden on any person or resource.

I agree, and note that I mentioned "the unsubscribed poster" above. And
as you pointed out, it should only happen with the start of a new
thread. There's an In-Reply-To header if the message is not starting a
new thread, so that could be used to differentiate the two cases. One
wrinkle I hadn't considered before your post, though, is that the unsub
may hijack an existing thread when he is actually starting a new one,
and I don't know if that case could be automated at all. That might mean
that the moderator (or, less desirably, one of the users who cares about
this stuff) might have to get involved, at least for the hijacked
threads. Does anybody see a way to automate it?

By the way, if anybody wants to see the effect of this link, my message
starting this thread is below, and the "Browse this thread" option will
let you see how it works. I couldn't find the "magic number" anywhere in
the header, though, I had to search the archive. Does anybody have a
recommendation about how best to get the number as a general case?
Looking in the archives for the relevant date and locating it from there?

www.openoffice.org/servlets/ReadMsg?list=users&msgNo=199848
<http://www.openoffice.org/servlets/ReadMsg?list=users&msgNo=199848>


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[James E. Lang-3]

--On Monday, November 02, 2009 12:13:59 PM -0800 "James E. Lang" <jim@...>
wrote:

> --On Sunday, November 01, 2009 10:11:27 AM -0600 Barbara Duprey
> <Barb@...> wrote:
>
>> Just a thought -- there is a link that can be provided into the archives for
>> a particular thread. What if either (in order of preference) the list
>> manager, a moderator, or anybody on the list who knows how, sent a message to
>> the unsubscribed poster containing that link? The poster would not have to
>> subscribe (thereby getting what could potentially be a dismaying number of
>> messages -- and often leading to a "please unsubscribe me" message). Yet
>> they'd be able to follow the discussion, wouldn't they, to see any responses
>> on the thread?
>
> I don't know if it is doable to send an automatic reply to anyone who starts
> a new thread saying, "http://... can be used to monitor this message and its
> responses." An alternative would be to only send this message to those who
> are unsubscribed at the time they start the new thread. This is a short and
> sweet message and if it can be automated it will place little burden on any
> person or resource.

Another thought: Add to the short automated message I described above something
like this: "This is a high volume (an average at present of about 1 message per
hour) mailing list to enable users of OpenOffice.org to help each other. You
may sample its archives at http://... to determine whether you are interested
in joining it. If you want to join it then go to http://... and fill out the
application." Make the links as specific as possible and above all, KEEP THE
MESSAGE SHORT and to the point (pardon the shout).

I don't know what capabilities the list software possesses to create the type
of automated message that I am proposing but if it is within the reach of the
technology then I believe that it would be to everyone's advantage to implement
something along these lines.

Slightly off this thread's topic: The relatively high volume of messages on
this list would be reduced considerably if people did not feel trapped on the
list and that problem is precisely what this thread is attempting to address.
People who feel trapped on the list repeatedly pound on the list to get
themselves off while _some_ of the more knowledgeable consider them to be
idiots who couldn't find their own mouths to feed themselves and make a
definite point of telling them so.

One more thought on this slightly divergent topic: When responding to the
people who feel trapped on the list I think that we should send our response to
them off list rather than clutter the list with more of the spitting contests.
Maybe the first person to respond could copy the list indicating that he/she
will take responsibility to guide the trapped person in finding his/her way off
the list and then try to be tactful in helping the person.

--
Jim


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[JOHN POLKO]

Hello all:
My reason for sending the message that I did send was to find as many
members as possible to help me if they were able.  I have been blacklisted
by Microsoft.  I purchased my computer as a used computer and paid only
$200.00 for it.  Microsoft wants me to pay 199.00 for new software, which is
out of the question form me financially.
In fact even if I could, I wouldn't pay that price for any new software
regardless of it source.  I received the info to access the e-page of
openoffic.org from one of the techs. at my internet provider.  I guess that
my questions are 1)  can I get free software from OO; 2) if I can get
software from OO, then how do I go about it. 3) how do I install it (I'm all
thumbs when it comes to compuers), and finally how can I remove the pop-up
that comes up regularly and also how can I get rid of the permanent window
that comes up whenever I am online.
P.S.  One final thing that comes to mind is that Microsoft seems to have
slowed down my server by about 33%.

Can anyone help?
Best regards,
John e. Polko.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Barbara Duprey" <Barb@...>
To: <users@...>
Sent: Monday, November 02, 2009 9:34 AM
Subject: Re: [users] Responding to unsubscribed posters

> John Kaufmann wrote:
>> In a message dated 2009.11.01 11:11 -0500, Barbara Duprey wrote:
>>
>>> Just a thought -- there is a link that can be provided into the archives
>>> for a particular thread. What if either (in order of preference) the
>>> list manager, a moderator, or anybody on the list who knows how, sent a
>>> message to the unsubscribed poster containing that link? The poster
>>> would not have to subscribe (thereby getting what could potentially be a
>>> dismaying number of messages -- and often leading to a "please
>>> unsubscribe me" message). Yet they'd be able to follow the discussion,
>>> wouldn't they, to see any responses on the thread?
>>
>> Barbara, thanks for that reminder of why users are allowed to post
>> without subscribing - presumably someone has made the judgment that it is
>> more friendly to new users, in a paradigm that says a mailing list must
>> choose between:
>> (1) subscribing to post, subjecting a new user to many more emails than
>> those which address his question;
>> (2) posting without subscribing, which means the new user may not see the
>> answer to his question.
>>
>> Most lists choose (1). This list chooses (2), and your elegant suggestion
>> tries to compensate for that well-intended but troublesome (and possibly
>> misguided) policy.  But how and when would that be done? -
>> (a) Immediately when an unsubscribed user posts a question, in reply to
>> the original post?  If so, how would the user know when the thread has
>> received a new post, including possibly an answer?
> This is when I think it would be reasonable, and there is already a list
> manager that could potentially do it automatically, and a moderator who
> has to choose to allow the post and could also provide the link. I agree
> that the user would have to keep checking back to see if anything useful
> has been said, but they could be told to do this, and they'd have the link
> to make it easy. I think this is preferable to having the forced
> subscription, because the volume of mail heere tends to dismay many
> newbies and most of what they'd see would not be pertinent to their
> specific question. The response that includes the link could say something
> like, "To see any further discussion relative to your post, keep checking
> this link (....); you will not automatically receive the responses. If you
> would like to participate in other aspects of the mailing list, like
> following other topics and perhaps responding to questions from others as
> you become more familiar with OpenOffice.org, please consider subscribing
> to the list by sending an e-mail to users-subscribe@.... Note
> that this list typically receives 20 to 40 posts each day, and it is
> recommended that you set your e-mail client to send this traffic to a
> mailbox separate from your normal mail." If the list manager did this, we
> wouldn't have to worry about who's subscribed or not, and the list
> wouldn't have to see this boilerplate at all. If the moderator did it, the
> list should be copied so we'd know it had happened. Otherwise, one of us
> who has an easy way to see if the user is subscribed, and can cite the
> link, could reply, copying the list.
>
>> (b) Each time something is posted in that thread?  If we can do that, why
>> not just (or also) forward the post?
>>
>> That latter alternative (b) seems to require a mechanism to keep track of
>> posts by unsubscribed users and, when a post comes to the list, not only
>> forward it to the subscribed list, but also check it against another list
>> of unsubscribed posts for special handling.  That sent me to the ezmlm
>> manual <http://www.ezmlm.org/manual/> to see what is possible within the
>> package without extension.  I did not find a good handle on this, but
>> there are lots of people who know much more about both ezmlm and database
>> programming, so maybe it's easier than I suppose.
>
> This sounds like an undesirable increase in overhead, and either too much
> manual handling, or changes to the list management that have been
> discussed many times here with no resolution. I've forwarded posts in the
> past when they seem to have useful answers for the poster, but as you have
> seen, some people object to this for various reasons. So the compromise
> position seems to be a post calling the responder's attention to the fact
> that the OP was not subscribed. Responders who are aware of the situation
> generally copy the OP directly, but that's pretty easy to forget, even if
> you know about it. Hence all sorts of additional list traffic....
>>
>> I would love to see a solution to this problem, because it would probably
>> also go far toward alleviating the other problem that takes up far too
>> much of the list bandwidth: Unsubscribing, or as called most recently,
>> "CANCELLATION".  The irony is that a list policy that may be designed to
>> avoid burdening new users with lots of irrelevant (to them) emails has
>> the effect of burdening the whole list with lots of irrelevant (to
>> everyone) emails.  There has to be a better way.
>>
>> John
>
> I'm really hoping the initial response above is a better solution! By the
> way, the "CANCELLATION" post was atypical in that it came from an account
> that was not itself subscribed, but apparently was getting the e-mails via
> forwarding or some other means. Most of these are from people who should
> probably never have subscribed in the first place, and didn't really
> understand the consequences, but did not know any other way to get
> responses. (And also didn't read the "Welcome" e-mail, but that's another
> story....)
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe@...
> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help@...
>

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[Barbara Duprey]

James E. Lang wrote:

> --On Monday, November 02, 2009 12:13:59 PM -0800 "James E. Lang"
> <jim@...> wrote:
>
>> --On Sunday, November 01, 2009 10:11:27 AM -0600 Barbara Duprey
>> <Barb@...> wrote:
>>
>>> Just a thought -- there is a link that can be provided into the
>>> archives for
>>> a particular thread. What if either (in order of preference) the list
>>> manager, a moderator, or anybody on the list who knows how, sent a
>>> message to
>>> the unsubscribed poster containing that link? The poster would not
>>> have to
>>> subscribe (thereby getting what could potentially be a dismaying
>>> number of
>>> messages -- and often leading to a "please unsubscribe me" message).
>>> Yet
>>> they'd be able to follow the discussion, wouldn't they, to see any
>>> responses
>>> on the thread?
>>
>> I don't know if it is doable to send an automatic reply to anyone who
>> starts
>> a new thread saying, "http://... can be used to monitor this message
>> and its
>> responses." An alternative would be to only send this message to
>> those who
>> are unsubscribed at the time they start the new thread. This is a
>> short and
>> sweet message and if it can be automated it will place little burden
>> on any
>> person or resource.
>
> Another thought: Add to the short automated message I described above
> something like this: "This is a high volume (an average at present of
> about 1 message per hour) mailing list to enable users of
> OpenOffice.org to help each other. You may sample its archives at
> http://... to determine whether you are interested in joining it. If
> you want to join it then go to http://... and fill out the
> application." Make the links as specific as possible and above all,
> KEEP THE MESSAGE SHORT and to the point (pardon the shout).

Another of my messages here has another version of such a message. If we
can reach agreement in principle that this kind of thing would be a good
idea, we can probably hash out a decent message -- once we know somebody
would actually use it!

>
> I don't know what capabilities the list software possesses to create
> the type of automated message that I am proposing but if it is within
> the reach of the technology then I believe that it would be to
> everyone's advantage to implement something along these lines.

That's why I'm not sure whether we can go with the list manager, the
moderator, or "just us folks" to send it -- obviously, automation would
be the ideal.

>
>
> Slightly off this thread's topic: The relatively high volume of
> messages on this list would be reduced considerably if people did not
> feel trapped on the list and that problem is precisely what this
> thread is attempting to address. People who feel trapped on the list
> repeatedly pound on the list to get themselves off while _some_ of the
> more knowledgeable consider them to be idiots who couldn't find their
> own mouths to feed themselves and make a definite point of telling
> them so.

Being "trapped on the list" basically seems to result from subscribing
without realizing the consequences -- both our versions of the message
address that, at least to keep unsubs from subscribing just to see the
responses they want and then getting swamped. Some people have a
boilerplate that they send with any response to an unsub that tells them
they should subscribe; if we can stop that kind of subscription, I'll be
happy.

>
> One more thought on this slightly divergent topic: When responding to
> the people who feel trapped on the list I think that we should send
> our response to them off list rather than clutter the list with more
> of the spitting contests. Maybe the first person to respond could copy
> the list indicating that he/she will take responsibility to guide the
> trapped person in finding his/her way off the list and then try to be
> tactful in helping the person.

I think we should always just be polite and not beat them over the head
with "it's at the bottom of every message, dumbo!" There usually are not
very many different people who respond to a particular "unsubscribe me"
request, but it's hard to know whether you're the first because of the
time delays of message routing. In my own responses, I try to anticipate
the kinds of things that can cause trouble, but I haven't specifically
said I was taking the point position in providing a solution to the
unhappy subscriber. I'll think about that.

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[Barbara Duprey]

John, this really should have started a new thread rather than
"hijacking" an existing one -- you've restricted your audience a lot
this way. In any event: see below for some answers.

JOHN POLKO wrote:

> Hello all:
> My reason for sending the message that I did send was to find as many
> members as possible to help me if they were able.  I have been
> blacklisted by Microsoft.  I purchased my computer as a used computer
> and paid only $200.00 for it.  Microsoft wants me to pay 199.00 for
> new software, which is out of the question form me financially.
> In fact even if I could, I wouldn't pay that price for any new
> software regardless of it source.  I received the info to access the
> e-page of openoffic.org from one of the techs. at my internet
> provider.  I guess that my questions are 1)  can I get free software
> from OO;

Yes, from www.openoffice.org.
> 2) if I can get software from OO, then how do I go about it.

If you click on the Download tab near the top of the page, the process
should be self-explanatory
> 3) how do I install it (I'm all thumbs when it comes to compuers),

Basically, double-click on the downloaded file and answer its questions
as appropriate. You'll find more detailed instructions from the Download
tab, under Documentation, Installation Instructions.
> and finally how can I remove the pop-up that comes up regularly and
> also how can I get rid of the permanent window that comes up whenever
> I am online.

No idea what you mean here.
> P.S.  One final thing that comes to mind is that Microsoft seems to
> have slowed down my server by about 33%.
>
> Can anyone help?
> Best regards,
> John e. Polko.

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[Gallomimia]

iPhone of Gallo

On 2009-11-02, at 20:37, Barbara Duprey <Barb@...> wrote:

JOHN POLKO wrote:

Hello all:

I have been blacklisted by Microsoft.

What a coincedence. Microsoft has been black listed by me.

 I purchased my computer as a used computer and paid only $200.00 for it.
 Microsoft wants me to pay 199.00 for new software, which is out of the
question form me financially.


Where have I heard this story before? Oh yeah. Everywhere. This is their
marketing strategy. Basically they think they have you by the balls and can
charge any price they want.

They don't. There are many alternatives to window, but they are not. The
subject of this list. Rest assured however, what you switch to, will be
compatible with open office.

and finally how can I remove the pop-up that comes up regularly and also how
can I get rid of the permanent window that comes up whenever I am online.


Is this popup with open office or windows? If windows, the solution is to
uninstall windows. You would need a new operating system to do this. Also
not the subject of
This List.

No idea what you mean here.

P.S.  One final thing that comes to mind is that Microsoft seems to have
slowed down my server by about 33%.


Have no idea what server you're talking about. Get with me off list and
explain.

Can anyone help?

Best regards,

John e. Polko.


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[Michael Adams-2]

It sounds to me like you have an illegal version of Microsoft Windows on
your computer. This is a wild stab at reading between the lines of your
text (alternatively you have an illegal or expired trial version of
Microsoft Office on your computer) I am prepared to help but perhaps not
exactly as you would like. See replies below, between the points of your
email:

On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 22:19:17 -0500
Came this utterance formulated by JOHN POLKO to my mailbox:

> Hello all:
> My reason for sending the message that I did send was to find as many
> members as possible to help me if they were able.  I have been
> blacklisted by Microsoft.

Point 1 which makes me think you have illegal software.

> I purchased my computer as a used computer and paid only $200.00 for
> it.  Microsoft wants me to pay 199.00 for new software,

Point 2 which makes me think you have illegal software.

> ... which is out of the question form me financially.

If you do have illegal software they may take you to court which would
probably result in a fine of tens of thousands of dollars.

> In fact even if I could, I wouldn't pay that price for any new
> software regardless of it source. I received the info to access the
> e-page of openoffic.org from one of the techs. at my internet
> provider.

He was probably fobbing you off, if as per my suspicions, you have
illegal software on your computer.

> I guess that my questions are

> 1)  can I get free software from OO;

Yes, but probably not what you want. I recommend you look to your
nearest local Linux User Group (LUG). Linux is free software (both in
cost and freedom terms) which replaces all that nasty Microsoft stuff on
your computer and doesn't stop working if you don't pay. Your local LUG
will help you install it on your computer, probably for free.
 
I'm going to take a further wild stab and say you are in Canada. Your
nearest LUG may be listed here:
http://www.linux.org/groups/canada/
other countries here:
http://www.linux.org/groups/

> 2) if I can get software from OO, then how do I go about it.

OppenOffice.org is one program. It is freely available with most normal
linux distributions anyway. It can also be downloaded from
www.openoffice.org

3) how do I install it

It will be installed when Linux is installed.

> (I'm all thumbs when it comes to compuers), and finally how can I
> remove the pop-up that comes up regularly and also how can I get rid
> of the permanent window that comes up whenever I am online.

Insufficient information to answer this. If you install linux as per the
above this will no longer happen.

> P.S.  One final thing that comes to mind is that Microsoft seems to
> have slowed down my server by about 33%.

You have a $200 computer and you are complaining about a slow server? A
"real" server is a $3,000+ specialist hardware computer running
dedicated software. My guess is you are really talking about your
internet connection speed. Not enough information to really know if my
guess is right.

*******

This is a mailing list providing help for OpenOffice.org. As a mailing
list there are some rules you should familiarise yourself with.

THREADING

There are a lot of emails on a lot of topics on this list (having
joined the list you will get all these emails).

People keep the large number of emails ordered in their email client
(email program) by threading. This is where the email client sorts the
emails by who replied to which email. Some email clients allow you to
ignore replies to a thread in which you have no interest. Your email was
a reply to a particularly long email discussion which many people have
lost interest in, so many that may be able to help you are no longer
watching the thread. You would therefore get a lot less help.

To prevent this issue, when you ask a question do not reply to another
question; instead, compose a brand new email.

SUBJECT LINE

The subject line of the email is the first information people read about
your issue. Your issue has nothing to do with "Responding to
unsubscribed posters".

Make the subject line of a question as relevant as you can while keeping
it brief.

CONTENT

Provide as much relevant information as you can. I have had to take
several wild stabs at helping you because of information i do not know.
Here is some good advice about asking questions on mailing lists the
smart way:
http://catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

In particular you could have told us:
Which version of Microsoft Windows you have.
Which program is popping up error messages.
Quote exactly what the error message says.
Exactly what you do before the error message pops up.

COMPUTERS

Most people buy a computer (especially their first) on the false
impression that they are an easy tool to learn. Yet without adequate
training many do not even understand Copy and Paste properly. You may
not be in this category... but realise this:- If they are a simple tool
why do the blokes that come and fix your computer do a three year degree
course just to get started?

HTH

--
Michael

All shall be well, and all shall be well, and all manner of things shall
be well

 - Julian of Norwich 1342 - 1416

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[Michael Adams-2]

On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 21:20:34 -0800
Came this utterance formulated by Mark Webster to my mailbox:

> iPhone of Gallo
>
> On 2009-11-02, at 20:37, Barbara Duprey <Barb@...> wrote:
>
> JOHN POLKO wrote:
>
> Hello all:
>
> I have been blacklisted by Microsoft.
>
> What a coincedence. Microsoft has been black listed by me.

Mark, your (iPhone?) email program fails to quote text properly. This
makes it very hard to tell which are your sarcastic comments and which
are the newbie points you are replying too.

--
Michael

All shall be well, and all shall be well, and all manner of things shall
be well

 - Julian of Norwich 1342 - 1416

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[AG-21]

Michael Adams wrote:

> <snip>
> *******
>
> This is a mailing list providing help for OpenOffice.org. As a mailing
> list there are some rules you should familiarise yourself with.
>
> THREADING
>
> There are a lot of emails on a lot of topics on this list (having
> joined the list you will get all these emails).
>
> People keep the large number of emails ordered in their email client
> (email program) by threading. This is where the email client sorts the
> emails by who replied to which email. Some email clients allow you to
> ignore replies to a thread in which you have no interest. Your email was
> a reply to a particularly long email discussion which many people have
> lost interest in, so many that may be able to help you are no longer
> watching the thread. You would therefore get a lot less help.
>
> To prevent this issue, when you ask a question do not reply to another
> question; instead, compose a brand new email.
>
> SUBJECT LINE
>
> The subject line of the email is the first information people read about
> your issue. Your issue has nothing to do with "Responding to
> unsubscribed posters".
>
> Make the subject line of a question as relevant as you can while keeping
> it brief.
>
> CONTENT
>
> Provide as much relevant information as you can. I have had to take
> several wild stabs at helping you because of information i do not know.
> Here is some good advice about asking questions on mailing lists the
> smart way:
> http://catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
>
> In particular you could have told us:
> Which version of Microsoft Windows you have.
> Which program is popping up error messages.
> Quote exactly what the error message says.
> Exactly what you do before the error message pops up.
>
> COMPUTERS
>
> Most people buy a computer (especially their first) on the false
> impression that they are an easy tool to learn. Yet without adequate
> training many do not even understand Copy and Paste properly. You may
> not be in this category... but realise this:- If they are a simple tool
> why do the blokes that come and fix your computer do a three year degree
> course just to get started?
>
> HTH
>
>  

Michael

Well put.  +1

Now how hard would this be to the email one receives from the OOo list
on subscribing?  Complete with clear instructions on how to unsub
*themselves* too!

AG

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[AG-21]

James E. Lang wrote:
> <snip>

> One more thought on this slightly divergent topic: When responding to
> the people who feel trapped on the list I think that we should send
> our response to them off list rather than clutter the list with more
> of the spitting contests. Maybe the first person to respond could copy
> the list indicating that he/she will take responsibility to guide the
> trapped person in finding his/her way off the list and then try to be
> tactful in helping the person.
>
That would be a comical twist of fate if suddenly all of us "helpful,
polite, tactful, etc." subs to this list individually sent this person
unsub instructions *without* CC'ing the list!!  Do you think the OP
would feel bombarded by kind offers of help?  ;)

AG


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[Brewster Gillett]

> James E. Lang wrote:
> > <snip>
>
> > One more thought on this slightly divergent topic: When responding to
> > the people who feel trapped on the list I think that we should send
> > our response to them off list rather than clutter the list with more
> > of the spitting contests. Maybe the first person to respond could copy
> > the list indicating that he/she will take responsibility to guide the
> > trapped person in finding his/her way off the list and then try to be
> > tactful in helping the person.

AG wrote:

> That would be a comical twist of fate if suddenly all of us "helpful,
> polite, tactful, etc." subs to this list individually sent this person
> unsub instructions *without* CC'ing the list!!  Do you think the OP
> would feel bombarded by kind offers of help?  ;)
>
> AG

bg:

Maybe, just maybe, if that were to happen, eventually the noob would
learn to read all the way to the bottom in case there were instructions
to be found there.... but I don't want to hold out false hopes :-)

Brewster
--
***********************************************************************
Embrace a sharing community of sustainable low-carbon vegan diversity
***********************************************************************
W. Brewster Gillett             bg@...            Portland, OR  USA
***********************************************************************



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[drewjensen]

AG wrote:

> James E. Lang wrote:
>> <snip>
>
>> One more thought on this slightly divergent topic: When responding to
>> the people who feel trapped on the list I think that we should send
>> our response to them off list rather than clutter the list with more
>> of the spitting contests. Maybe the first person to respond could
>> copy the list indicating that he/she will take responsibility to
>> guide the trapped person in finding his/her way off the list and then
>> try to be tactful in helping the person.
>>
> That would be a comical twist of fate if suddenly all of us "helpful,
> polite, tactful, etc." subs to this list individually sent this person
> unsub instructions *without* CC'ing the list!!  Do you think the OP
> would feel bombarded by kind offers of help?  ;)

Then again there is nothing stopping the most active members of the list
from working together to setup something along those lines.

Drew



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[Michelle Konzack-2]

Am 2009-11-02 12:13:59, schrieb James E. Lang:
> I don't know if it is doable to send an automatic reply to anyone
> who starts a new thread saying, "http://... can be used to monitor
> this message and its responses." An alternative would be to only
> send this message to those who are unsubscribed at the time they
> start the new thread. This is a short and sweet message and if it
> can be automated it will place little burden on any person or
> resource.

But use an additional Opt-Out option to  prevent  permanently  receiving
this messages...  I am on GSM/GPRS and do not need additonal messages.

Thanks, Greetings and nice Day/Evening
    Michelle Konzack
    Tamay Dogan Network
    Debian GNU/Linux Consultant

--
Linux-User #280138 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org/
##################### Debian GNU/Linux Consultant #####################
<http://www.tamay-dogan.net/>                 Michelle Konzack
<http://www.can4linux.org/>                   Apt. 917
<http://www.flexray4linux.org/>               50, rue de Soultz
Jabber linux4michelle@...           67100 Strabourg/France
IRC    #Debian (irc.icq.com)                  Tel. DE: [phone]
ICQ    #328449886                             Tel. FR: [phone]

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[Barbara Duprey]

AG wrote:

> James E. Lang wrote:
>> <snip>
>
>> One more thought on this slightly divergent topic: When responding to
>> the people who feel trapped on the list I think that we should send
>> our response to them off list rather than clutter the list with more
>> of the spitting contests. Maybe the first person to respond could
>> copy the list indicating that he/she will take responsibility to
>> guide the trapped person in finding his/her way off the list and then
>> try to be tactful in helping the person.
>>
> That would be a comical twist of fate if suddenly all of us "helpful,
> polite, tactful, etc." subs to this list individually sent this person
> unsub instructions *without* CC'ing the list!!  Do you think the OP
> would feel bombarded by kind offers of help?  ;)
>
> AG

I agree -- not copying the list leaves everybody wondering (if they care
at all) whether somebody is helping this person to unsubscribe.

Since this thread has sort of morphed into another version of the
"Unsubscribe" topic (besides having been hijacked by John Polko), let's
acknowledge that aspect.

The people who are asking to be unsubscribed somehow managed to
subscribe. How could they do that, and then (probably very soon after)
not know how to do (or be unable to do) the extremely parallel operation
of unsubscribing? It seems that in many cases the subscription mechanism
is being hidden from them, to the extent that the confirmation messages
sometimes can't even be handled by their e-mail clients (for instance,
the guy recently who couldn't just respond to the unsubscribe
confirmation because his client couldn't handle an embedded equals sign
in the To: field, which was there in the subscribe confirmation as
well). Third parties should not be able to accomplish that kind of
subscription, but how else can this be explained? I think I'm going to
try going off-list with some of these people to see if I can pin this
down. It's a major irritant to the unintentional subscriber and to the
list, as well as indicating that there's a hole in the process.

If somebody did knowingly subscribe, and somehow missed the connection
between the two actions, why did they subscribe? Were they following
some suggestion that they should subscribe to see the responses? If so,
where is that suggestion? If it's coming from list members, maybe we can
retrain them so they use the archive link idea instead. After all, that
allows somebody to see the responses without getting all the unrelated
messages -- if they don't really want to participate in the list, they
really shouldn't be subscribing. Otherwise, we need to find out what's
leading them to subscribe and tone it down somehow, at least warning
them of the volume of messages in the same context as the subscribe
mailto link. Again, maybe some off-list communications can dig this out.
I guess I'm volunteering to do that, too. If they ask their questions
without subscribing, the archive link should let them get the responses
fairly uncluttered by other stuff (except when hijacking and OT
meanderings occur, but at least they've got a chance -- and it beats
getting *everything*!).

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[Harold Fuchs-2]

2009/11/1 Barbara Duprey <Barb@...>

> Just a thought -- there is a link that can be provided into the archives
> for a particular thread. What if either (in order of preference) the list
> manager, a moderator, or anybody on the list who knows how, sent a message
> to the unsubscribed poster containing that link? The poster would not have
> to subscribe (thereby getting what could potentially be a dismaying number
> of messages -- and often leading to a "please unsubscribe me" message). Yet
> they'd be able to follow the discussion, wouldn't they, to see any responses
> on the thread?
>
>
>

I *think* that the main source of the problem is that the moderator's e-mail
program and/or his/her installation of the list management software is
mis-configured.

The list management software is called "ezmlm" ("Easy Mail List Management"
or some such). The ezmlm manual is on-line at <http://www.ezmlm.org/manual/>.
Section 1.6 discusses replying to a message from an ezmlm mailing list (see
http://www.ezmlm.org/manual/Replying.html#Replying>). It suggests quite
clearly that a "Reply all" should go to the list *and* to the unsubscribed
originator of the message.

Perhaps the moderator has overriden the default "reply to" address in the
ezmlm config file(s) and/or in his/her own e-mail program ????

In the immortal words of Sandy Powell: can you hear me, mother?

--
Harold Fuchs
London, England
Please reply *only* to users@...

[Barbara Duprey]

Harold Fuchs wrote:

> 2009/11/1 Barbara Duprey <Barb@...>
>
>  
>> Just a thought -- there is a link that can be provided into the archives
>> for a particular thread. What if either (in order of preference) the list
>> manager, a moderator, or anybody on the list who knows how, sent a message
>> to the unsubscribed poster containing that link? The poster would not have
>> to subscribe (thereby getting what could potentially be a dismaying number
>> of messages -- and often leading to a "please unsubscribe me" message). Yet
>> they'd be able to follow the discussion, wouldn't they, to see any responses
>> on the thread?
>>
>>
>>
>>    
> I *think* that the main source of the problem is that the moderator's e-mail
> program and/or his/her installation of the list management software is
> mis-configured.
>
> The list management software is called "ezmlm" ("Easy Mail List Management"
> or some such). The ezmlm manual is on-line at <http://www.ezmlm.org/manual/>.
> Section 1.6 discusses replying to a message from an ezmlm mailing list (see
> http://www.ezmlm.org/manual/Replying.html#Replying>). It suggests quite
> clearly that a "Reply all" should go to the list *and* to the unsubscribed
> originator of the message.
>
> Perhaps the moderator has overriden the default "reply to" address in the
> ezmlm config file(s) and/or in his/her own e-mail program ????
>
> In the immortal words of Sandy Powell: can you hear me, mother?

The Reply-To header is forced to the list only. Whether that could be
changed or not, it's been discussed here many times and nothing has ever
happened -- I don't think mother hears us! I'm also not sure how good
we'd be at remembering to use Reply All, or whether it would carry
throughout the discussion. If somebody just used Reply, and then
somebody deeper in the thread actually answers the OP's question, we'd
be back where we are now, right?  I almost never use Reply All myself,
I'm pretty sure I'd sometimes forget! From what Paul (a? the? moderator
for this list) has said on-list, the moderators really don't have any
say in what the ezmlm setup is, and I think the approval process is
outside of the normal e-mail client use. The responsible person or
group, and the list owner, remain mysterious (at least as far as I've
seen here). One of the reasons I'm exploring the archive link is that it
could be accomplished as part of the list management protocol, or by the
moderator, or by people like us -- depending on who we could get to listen.

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