SPOT abuse

[John Lovaas]

From today's NPS Morning Report-

"Grand Canyon National Park (AZ)
Hikers Evacuated After Three SPOT Activations In Three Days

On the evening of September 23rd, rangers began a search for hikers who repeatedly activated their rented SPOT satellite tracking device. The GEOS Emergency Response Center in Houston reported that someone in the group of four hikers - two men and their two teenaged sons - had pressed the "help" button on their SPOT unit. The coordinates for the signal placed the group in a remote section of the park, most likely on the challenging Royal Arch loop. Due to darkness and the remoteness of the location, rangers were unable to reach them via helicopter until the following morning. When found, they'd moved about a mile and a half to a water source. They declined rescue, as they'd activated the device due to their lack of water. Later that same evening, the same SPOT device was again activated, this time using the "911" button. Coordinates placed them less than a quarter mile from the spot where searchers had found them that morning. Once again, nightfall prevented a response by park helicopter, so an Arizona DPS helicopter whose crew utilized night vision goggles was brought in. They found that the members of the group were concerned about possible dehydration because the water they'd found tasted salty, but no actual emergency existed. The helicopter crew declined their request for a night evacuation, but provided them with water before departing. On the following morning, another SPOT "help" activation came in from the group. This time they were flown out by park helicopter. All four refused medical assessment or treatment. The group's leader had reportedly hiked once at the Grand Canyon; the other adult had no Grand Canyon and very little backpacking experience.  When asked what they would have done without the SPOT device, the leader stated, "We would have never attempted this hike."  The group leader was issued a citation for creating a hazardous condition (36 CFR 2.34(a)(4)). [Submitted by Brandon Torres, Canyon District Shift Supervisor]
"

Grrrrrr....

[gary coleman]

should've just left em out there after the third time.  proof positive that the gene pool needs some chlorination.


     

[James D. Marco-2]

Gary,
        SPOT on!
        Yes, I agree. Being thirsty is not necessarily being dangerously
dehydrated. Not really funny when you look at it from their side, though.
I cut my water slim on occasion, and have hiked the last four or five
hours or so dry. (Even hot coffee on a warm day tastes great...its Wet.)
        But, in any emergency situation, and this certainly does not
sound like one, is do NOT panic. They should be ashamed...replace
concern with panic? They should have gotten a ticket the first time...
besides the billing.
        See SPOT. See SPOT fetch water.
        Fetch SPOT. Fetch. Fetch. Fetch.
        My fetching (well, less than fetching) thoughts only . . .
                jdm
At 11:08 AM 10/21/2009, you wrote:


>should've just left em out there after the third time.  proof positive that the gene pool needs some chlorination.

[Randal Swink]

I loved the part about they would not have tried the hike without the SPOT.
Maybe they should have a better questionnaire before renting the SPOT?

Back into Lurker mode.

On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 1:16 PM, James D. Marco <jdm27@...> wrote:

>
>
> Gary,
> SPOT on!
> Yes, I agree. Being thirsty is not necessarily being dangerously
> dehydrated. Not really funny when you look at it from their side, though.
> I cut my water slim on occasion, and have hiked the last four or five
> hours or so dry. (Even hot coffee on a warm day tastes great...its Wet.)
> But, in any emergency situation, and this certainly does not
> sound like one, is do NOT panic. They should be ashamed...replace
> concern with panic? They should have gotten a ticket the first time...
> besides the billing.
> See SPOT. See SPOT fetch water.
> Fetch SPOT. Fetch. Fetch. Fetch.
> My fetching (well, less than fetching) thoughts only . . .
> jdm
> At 11:08 AM 10/21/2009, you wrote:
>
> >should've just left em out there after the third time. proof positive that
> the gene pool needs some chlorination.
>
>  
>

[Bill-182]

Hi Folks,

I'm considering the Gila Wilderness for next summer's trek.  I've got
the recommended book and have ordered the maps, but I'm hoping you can
offer some first-hand info.

Are there any "secret wonders", "don't miss" or "don't bother" places in
the wilderness?

Is the water reliable?

Do the wildlife tend to hang out in particular places?

Can you recommend any 50-mile, 6-day routes?

etc

Thanks for any experience you can offer.

Bill

[boardmanmw-2]

1.  Summer's are hot, unless you stay in the high country, mostly in the northern half.  Might do better to try for early summer or early fall.
2.  Water in the major streams & rivers runs all year round. Some of the springs in the high country or on the drier trails are iffy--have to consult the book.  Plan to purify whatever you drink.
3.   Jordan Hot Springs is a keeper (avoid the weekends), along with the Cliff dwellings,and the Whitewater Creek trail is very scenic. The Gila has such a fantastically well developed system of trails, as you can see from the map and guide, that it's possible to put together a circuit trip from practically anywhere to anywhere in the Wilderness.  My next trip will be the Middle Fork trail to up north, returning by way of the West Fork.  Good trails all, and water plentiful.  It's a great place.  MWB


--- In BackpackingLight@..., Bill <bpl@...> wrote:

>
> Hi Folks,
>
> I'm considering the Gila Wilderness for next summer's trek.  I've got
> the recommended book and have ordered the maps, but I'm hoping you can
> offer some first-hand info.
>
> Are there any "secret wonders", "don't miss" or "don't bother" places in
> the wilderness?
>
> Is the water reliable?
>
> Do the wildlife tend to hang out in particular places?
>
> Can you recommend any 50-mile, 6-day routes?
>
> etc
>
> Thanks for any experience you can offer.
>
> Bill
>

[James D. Marco-2]

Hi all,
        I was looking at the Phantom Jacket from Mountain Hardware.
It weighs about half what my current jacket weighs (16oz vs 32oz).
Both are short jackets, designed for not so cold weather. I was a
bit concerned about the construction, though.  An 800 fill sewn
through jacket seems like a waste of good down. Even a slight
1/4 or 1/2" baffle would help a lot. They don't use a lot of seams,
soo, I was wondering about the down shifting in use. New is
likely good. After 10-12 nights, is it still good? And I have a question
about the overall warmth of this jacket. It is on sale, but, is it worth
it?
        TIA!
                jdm  

[DonL]

Hi Jim,

Depending on how well it fits you, and how much you have to pay for it, (I've seen it for about $144, that's $100 less than full retail,) I think this could be a good jacket for hikers like us because it's lightweight and packable.

The nylon shell is 15 denier, that's one reason it's light, and it also means that it won't take a lot of abuse, as in bushwhacking, unless it's protected by a tougher fabric (like a rainjacket) over it.

I have an old first generation Western Mountaineering parka that features sewn through construction. It probably comes down a little further on the torso than this Mountain Hardwear jacket but I like it just fine, so sewn-through construction is not a deal breaker for me.

And if the MH Phantom could be paired up with an insulated vest where the sewn through parts of the two garments did not coincide, I think it would be a nice versatile set up, flexable enough by mix-and-match to be usable in many conditions.

Just my humble opinion.  But that's what you asked for! :o)
Best,  Don L.

"James D. Marco" <jdm27@...> wrote:
>
> Hi all,
> I was looking at the Phantom Jacket from Mountain Hardware.
> It weighs about half what my current jacket weighs (16oz vs 32oz).
>

[James D. Marco-2]

Thanks Don,
        I was kind'a thinking along those lines. The price is OK, but even
149.95 (free shipping) is a lot of dollars. Soo, I am being careful. The
economy is still not good. But, lite is the light...  Shedding a full pound
off my cold weather gear is certainly attractive.  I spent a couple hours
going through various reviews...I was thinking that a thin sweater under
it will work for early fall, a three layer set up for later fall, with a full longer
shell, come winter.  Like you say....flexible.
        I am not sure a vest and the jacket will both work under the shell,
though. I would worry the weight would be compressing the down too
much for it to work well in the shoulder area..... With *just* the jacket, the
vest/jacket  combination you suggest makes more sense than a
sweater...warmer too. If I do that, I will need to get one size larger to give
 the vest some space...
        Anyway, it should be good for morning hikes around 0F or so.
Lower with the shell, of course.
I will mention it to the wife...she is looking for Christmas suggestions.
        Thanks, Don!
                jdm

At 08:21 PM 10/22/2009, you wrote:

>Hi Jim,
>
>Depending on how well it fits you, and how much you have to pay for it, (I've seen it for about $144, that's $100 less than full retail,) I think this could be a good jacket for hikers like us because it's lightweight and packable.
>
>The nylon shell is 15 denier, that's one reason it's light, and it also means that it won't take a lot of abuse, as in bushwhacking, unless it's protected by a tougher fabric (like a rainjacket) over it.
>
>I have an old first generation Western Mountaineering parka that features sewn through construction. It probably comes down a little further on the torso than this Mountain Hardwear jacket but I like it just fine, so sewn-through construction is not a deal breaker for me.
>
>And if the MH Phantom could be paired up with an insulated vest where the sewn through parts of the two garments did not coincide, I think it would be a nice versatile set up, flexable enough by mix-and-match to be usable in many conditions.
>
>Just my humble opinion.  But that's what you asked for! :o)
>Best,  Don L.
>
>"James D. Marco" <jdm27@...> wrote:
>>
>> Hi all,
>>       I was looking at the Phantom Jacket from Mountain Hardware.
>> It weighs about half what my current jacket weighs (16oz vs 32oz).
>>
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------------
>
>
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>

James Marco
Computer Operations Manager, Desktop Support
Biomedical Engineering and
Chemical and Biomolecular Engineering
Cornell University
B78A Olin Hall,
Ithaca,  NY  14853
Office: 255-7312

[Patrick J. Kelly]

As I recall, helicopters cost around $100 to $200/hour to operate. 3 trips, at an hour or two each plus EMT personnel time...I think appropriate fine would be $1,000.

Patrick

--- In BackpackingLight@..., "John Lovaas" <jlovaas@...> wrote:
>
> From today's NPS Morning Report-
>
> "Grand Canyon National Park (AZ)
> Hikers Evacuated After Three SPOT Activations In Three Days

[scott millbern]

With prep time, getting emergency personal and support personal
activated I would say $1000 would be very, very cheap. Looking at
charges for a short simple ambulance ride I'd think the charge would
be 5 to 10 times that.

--
Sent from my mobile device

scoTt

mobile [phone]
skype scott.millbern

[scott millbern]

This does bring up an interesting question. I have separate rescue insurance
through the American Alpine Club and my girl friend does through the German
Alpine Club, however, with more agencies charging for rescue I wonder what
insurance will pay for a "false alarm". It is a bit of a two edged blade in
that you do not want too easy of a road out as in this situation where there
'seems' to be under prepared hikers, but you also do not want someone dieing
of exposure with a SPOT device in their pack, afraid to use it for fear of
incurring cost. This is, in some ways, new territory. People will be more
willing in some cases to push further than their abilities to navigate and
control their situation. I personally don't think this is a good thing.
Maybe I am too conservative, but I like to know I can get myself out of 99%
of situations that I will put myself into. I am a climbing guide (part time)
and I try to always keep in mind the what if situation with clients as well
as when climbing/hiking for personal pleasure.

The question then; how many of you carry rescue insurance? I can pretty much
guarantee that a heilo rescue in a remote area (provided you are charged) is
going to run way more than $1000

scoTt

On Fri, Oct 23, 2009 at 12:48 AM, Patrick <patrickkel1@...> wrote:

>
>
> As I recall, helicopters cost around $100 to $200/hour to operate. 3 trips,
> at an hour or two each plus EMT personnel time...I think appropriate fine
> would be $1,000.
>
> Patrick
>
> --- In BackpackingLight@...<BackpackingLight%40yahoogroups.com>,
> "John Lovaas" <jlovaas@...> wrote:
> >
> > From today's NPS Morning Report-
> >
> > "Grand Canyon National Park (AZ)
> > Hikers Evacuated After Three SPOT Activations In Three Days
>
>  
>

--
scoTt

mobile [phone]
skype scott.millbern

[chadbrow]

I love the new puffy jackets coming out. I work at an Eastern Mountain Sports and we have a cool down sweater made by EMS. It is awesome. 11oz for a mens large, DWR Pertex shell with 800 fill. It says it has a baffle construction, but I'm not sure what that means exactly. It is normally $169, but if you buy it at a store and your a college student or military you get 15% off, if you open a EMS credit card it is 20% off. I think it is on sale soon too. It is real similar to the Patagonia.

http://www.ems.com/product/index.jsp?productId=3646514

Hope this helps.

Chad

[Bill-182]

Just FYI ...

A Google Shopping search found the Mountain Hardwear Phantom Jacket for
$120 at CampSaver and Escape Outdoors, $138 at 6pm, and a bunch of
others lower than $150.  Not sure if any shipping cost would offset the
savings.

There is also a "refurbished" one offered at GearTrade for $80.

Bill

James D. Marco wrote:
>  
>
> Thanks Don,
> I was kind'a thinking along those lines. The price is OK, but even
> 149.95 (free shipping) is a lot of dollars.
>
>
>
>

[John Smith-64]

I agree that those folks were idiots, however I would hesitate to fine them for the rescue.  Once people know they will be charged for rescues then many will wait until it is too late.  No system is going to be perfect but as soon as park services or other rescue agencies start charging for services then there will be folks who need them but decide to not call because of the associated cost. 

Perhaps a refundable deposit before heading out on trails????

In the end if the hikers had built their knowledge (the lightest piece of equipment available to everyone) then no problems. 

john the xcar

         
       
       








       


       
       


     

[Ralph Oborn]

   I agree that those folks were idiots, however I would hesitate to fine
them for the rescue.  Once people know they will be charged for rescues then
many will wait until it is too late.  No system is going to be perfect but
as soon as park services or other rescue agencies start charging for
services then there will be folks who need them but decide to not call
because of the associated cost.

While I see your point.......
The Gov too often responds to people like this with more regulations on the
rest of us "responsible" wilderness users.

I want people who are requesting rescue to think about it, it is not like
calling room service, rescuers risk their lives because they believe there
is someone out there worth saving. In this particular case I'm not so sure
it was.

Stupid is a condition....ignorance is a choice.

Ralph

[gary coleman]

Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain....some German author that i cannot remember at the present

--- On Fri, 10/23/09, Ralph Oborn <Ralph.oborn@...> wrote:


From: Ralph Oborn <Ralph.oborn@...>
Subject: Re: [BackpackingLight] Re: SPOT abuse
To: BackpackingLight@...
Date: Friday, October 23, 2009, 10:59 AM


 









I agree that those folks were idiots, however I would hesitate to fine them for the rescue.  Once people know they will be charged for rescues then many will wait until it is too late.  No system is going to be perfect but as soon as park services or other rescue agencies start charging for services then there will be folks who need them but decide to not call because of the associated cost. 

 
While I see your point.......
The Gov too often responds to people like this with more regulations on the rest of us "responsible" wilderness users.

I want people who are requesting rescue to think about it, it is not like calling room service, rescuers risk their lives because they believe there is someone out there worth saving. In this particular case I'm not so sure it was. 
 
Stupid is a condition... .ignorance is a choice.
 
Ralph















     

[Bob Bankhead]

Friedrich von Schiller
German dramatist & poet (1759 - 1805)

  ----- Original Message -----
  From: gary coleman
  To: BackpackingLight@...
  Sent: Friday, October 23, 2009 8:19 AM
  Subject: Re: [BackpackingLight] Re: SPOT abuse


    Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain....some German author that i cannot remember at the present

        --- On Fri, 10/23/09, Ralph Oborn <Ralph.oborn@...> wrote:


          From: Ralph Oborn <Ralph.oborn@...>
          Subject: Re: [BackpackingLight] Re: SPOT abuse
          To: BackpackingLight@...
          Date: Friday, October 23, 2009, 10:59 AM


           
                I agree that those folks were idiots, however I would hesitate to fine them for the rescue.  Once people know they will be charged for rescues then many will wait until it is too late.  No system is going to be perfect but as soon as park services or other rescue agencies start charging for services then there will be folks who need them but decide to not call because of the associated cost.  
               


          While I see your point.......
          The Gov too often responds to people like this with more regulations on the rest of us "responsible" wilderness users.

          I want people who are requesting rescue to think about it, it is not like calling room service, rescuers risk their lives because they believe there is someone out there worth saving. In this particular case I'm not so sure it was.  

          Stupid is a condition... .ignorance is a choice.

          Ralph



 

[gary coleman]

danke

--- On Fri, 10/23/09, Bob Bankhead <wandering_bob@...> wrote:


From: Bob Bankhead <wandering_bob@...>
Subject: Re: [BackpackingLight] Re: SPOT abuse
To: BackpackingLight@...
Date: Friday, October 23, 2009, 11:35 AM


 




Friedrich von Schiller
German dramatist & poet (1759 - 1805)
 

----- Original Message -----
From: gary coleman
To: BackpackingLight@ yahoogroups. com
Sent: Friday, October 23, 2009 8:19 AM
Subject: Re: [BackpackingLight] Re: SPOT abuse

 





Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain....some German author that i cannot remember at the present








 
 
Stupid is a condition... .ignorance is a choice.
 
Ralph
















     

[DonL]

That EMS "sweater" looks really nice and it's light, but I'm afraid I don't quite understand the terminology. It has a zipper, (which personally, I like because it makes it more versatile,) so what's the real difference between a sweater and a jacket in this kind of gear?

Thanks Chad, or anyone!  Don L.

---"chadbrow" <chadbrow@...> wrote:
>
> I love the new puffy jackets coming out. I work at an Eastern Mountain Sports and we have a cool down sweater made by EMS. It is awesome. 11oz for a mens large, DWR Pertex shell with 800 fill.