Sabbaths to make calendar perpetual

[Peace Crusader]

20120123.2300

Dear Calendar People,

The Muslims celebrate Sabbath on Friday; the Jews, Saturday; and the Christians, generally Sunday.  Every week, each religion may celebrate their Sabbath on their day, but once a year, as the end of the year and on the eve of a new year, how about a Grand Sabbath, December 31, which will be a noweekday, a blank day?  And on a leap year, another noweekday, a blank day, called Glorious Sabbath, on June 31?  Will these blank days not make the calendar perpetual?

Best regards,
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo of the Holy Spirit
Motto: pro aris et focis (for the sake of, or defense of, religion and home)
http://aristean.org/ and http://peacecrusader.wordpress.com/
"The Internet is mightier than the sword."

[dpatte]

There certainly are alot of discussions here about a perpetual calendar - something i don't see as advantageous at all.

A calendar should be representative of astronomical phenonena, where possible, but pinning days of the month to particular days of the week is not something I would enjoy, nor do I see it as representative of astronomical events in any way.

I strongly vote against the concept.

On 2012-01-23 8:19, Aristeo Fernando wrote:

20120123.2300

Dear Calendar People,

The Muslims celebrate Sabbath on Friday; the Jews, Saturday; and the Christians, generally Sunday.  Every week, each religion may celebrate their Sabbath on their day, but once a year, as the end of the year and on the eve of a new year, how about a Grand Sabbath, December 31, which will be a noweekday, a blank day?  And on a leap year, another noweekday, a blank day, called Glorious Sabbath, on June 31?  Will these blank days not make the calendar perpetual?

Best regards,
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo of the Holy Spirit
Motto: pro aris et focis (for the sake of, or defense of, religion and home)
http://aristean.org/ and http://peacecrusader.wordpress.com/
"The Internet is mightier than the sword."

[Irv Bromberg]

On 2012 Jan 23, at 08:26 , David Patte wrote:

There certainly are alot of discussions here about a perpetual calendar - something i don't see as advantageous at all.

A calendar should be representative of astronomical phenonena, where possible, but pinning days of the month to particular days of the week is not something I would enjoy, nor do I see it as representative of astronomical events in any way.

I strongly vote against the concept.

Irv replies:

I assume that David is referring to Gregorian calendar reform.

The Gregorian calendar is not an astronomical calendar -- it is a fixed arithmetic calendar -- likewise for its fixed arithmetic Easter computus.

Although there are several features of the calendar that could be slightly improved, none of them are of any real importance if perpetual calendar reform is off the table.

Are you sure that you understand the scheduling benefits of a annually repeating perpetual calendar?

I don't usually imagine that I might "enjoy" a particular calendar, although I would probably feel a lot of enjoyment if one of my calendar reforms were adopted!

Well, it possibly could be the case that in your lifestyle a perpetual calendar would have no significantly positive impact, but for the businesses, industries, academic institutions, and governments of the world, the consistent scheduling advantages of a perpetual calendar would be a great advantage.  Is there some way that a perpetual calendar would negatively impact your life?  (Perhaps you sell calendars and feel that business would fall off?  That is unlikely, in fact it is likely that people would be more willing to invest in their calendar purchases, because they will know that they will be able to re-use the same calendar each year.)

The League of Nations and later the United Nations spent quite a bit of time debating calendar reform, but it is my understanding that the only calendars that were considered were annual perpetual calendars.  Who knows the history well -- is that correct?

-- Dr. Irv Bromberg, University of Toronto, Canada

<http://www.sym454.org/>

[Karl Palmen]

Some parts of this message have been removed. Learn more about Nabble's security policy.

Dear Irv and Calendar People

 

From: East Carolina University Calendar discussion List [mailto:CALNDR-L@...] On Behalf Of Irv Bromberg
Sent: 24 January 2012 02:08
To: CALNDR-L@...
Subject: Re: Sabbaths to make calendar perpetual

 

On 2012 Jan 23, at 08:26 , David Patte wrote:

There certainly are alot of discussions here about a perpetual calendar - something i don't see as advantageous at all.

A calendar should be representative of astronomical phenonena, where possible, but pinning days of the month to particular days of the week is not something I would enjoy, nor do I see it as representative of astronomical events in any way.

I strongly vote against the concept.

 

 

Irv replies:

 

I assume that David is referring to Gregorian calendar reform.

The Gregorian calendar is not an astronomical calendar -- it is a fixed arithmetic calendar -- likewise for its fixed arithmetic Easter computus.

 

Although there are several features of the calendar that could be slightly improved, none of them are of any real importance if perpetual calendar reform is off the table.

KARL SAYS: Except possibly having all months of the year begin on the same day of week or even possibly every 3^rd month of the year beginning on the same day of week.

 

Karl

 

12(08(01 till noon

 

--
Scanned by iCritical.

[Irv Bromberg]

On 2012 Jan 24, at 03:55 , Karl Palmen wrote:

On 2012 Jan 23, at 08:26 , David Patte wrote:
There certainly are alot of discussions here about a perpetual calendar - something i don't see as advantageous at all.

From: Irv Bromberg, Sent: 24 January 2012 02:08

Although there are several features of the calendar that could be slightly improved, none of them are of any real importance if perpetual calendar reform is off the table.

KARL SAYS: Except possibly having all months of the year begin on the same day of week or even possibly every 3rd month of the year beginning on the same day of week.

Irv replies:  Those are nice features that are easy to do while-we-are-at-it in a perpetual calendar reform, but they just aren't important enough to initiate a Gregorian calendar reform on their own -- their benefits wouldn't be very significant, yet the necessary computer software changes would be essentially as extensive and expensive as a perpetual leap week calendar reform.

-- Dr. Irv Bromberg, University of Toronto, Canada

<http://www.sym454.org/>

[Amos Shapir-2]

Reality check:  It seems that people can live with a religious
calendar which is different than the business calendar, and
occasionally take a day off for a holiday in the middle of the
business week, at an irregular date of the business calendar.  On the
other hand it would be much more difficult to have to observe a weekly
religious day off at the middle of the business week, certainly even
more so if that day of the business week changes often (as was the
case wit the French Revolutionary Calendar).

I know of no religious calendar based on a single short cycle, whose
"week" is different than 7 days (some Eastern calendars observe other
cycles in parallel, but not a single dominant cycle).

Therefore any reform calendar may be accepted as a business calendar,
while people keep their respective religious calendar to reckon
holidays by.  It is also almost mandatory that such a calendar would
keep the weekly cycle, so in effect be a leap-week calendar.

IMHO the reform had already started.  Many products are dated by week
number (I have mentioned here car tires a few times), many companies
manage projects by the week, sometimes grouped into 13-week quarters
(most notable are TV program schedules), etc.

My prediction is that businesses would gradually fall into the habit
of using "week number / DOW" style of dating for more and more
purposes, and this method will gradually filter into people's private
lives as public offices and schools adopt it.  Initially it will be
used in parallel with the current calendar, then as people get used to
it, the Gregorian calendar would slip into the position of a religious
calendar used only for holidays.  I assume this would take a few
decades.

At some point along this process there would have to be a more or less
official agreement on standardizing week numbers; at this point the
calendar would become a true leap-week calendar.  I don't think there
would be an objection to use a more rational algorithm, different than
the currently used ISO8601 or Microsoft Outlook methods.  (Actually, I
believe very few people would even notice).

--
Amos Shapir.

[Peace Crusader]

20120125.0900

Dear Amos and Calendar People,

I agree with Amos “that people can live with a religious calendar which is different than the business calendar.”  The Jews have their Jewish calendar; the Muslims, their Hegira calendar; the Chinese, their Chinese calendar; etc.  They co-exist with the de facto business primary official standard calendar of the world, the Gregorian calendar.  The Gregorian did not affect their Sabbath day.  How about if the Gregorian is made perpetual by introducing blank days, will they still accept a perpetualized Gregorian?

What is being done is to unify their Sabbath days into one during the blank days.  Will this is acceptable to the religious at least once a year? 

Until now, the Eastern Orthodox churches still use the Julian calendar even though the Western churches have been using the Gregorian.

Best regards,
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo of the Holy Spirit
Motto: pro aris et focis (for the sake of, or defense of, religion and home)
http://aristean.org/ and http://peacecrusader.wordpress.com/
"The Internet is mightier than the sword."

From: Amos Shapir <amos083@...>
To: CALNDR-L@...
Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2012 1:41 AM
Subject: Re: Sabbaths to make calendar perpetual

Reality check:  It seems that people can live with a religious
calendar which is different than the business calendar, and
occasionally take a day off for a holiday in the middle of the
business week, at an irregular date of the business calendar.  On the
other hand it would be much more difficult to have to observe a weekly
religious day off at the middle of the business week, certainly even
more so if that day of the business week changes often (as was the
case wit the French Revolutionary Calendar).

I know of no religious calendar based on a single short cycle, whose
"week" is different than 7 days (some Eastern calendars observe other
cycles in parallel, but not a single dominant cycle).

Therefore any reform calendar may be accepted as a business calendar,
while people keep their respective religious calendar to reckon
holidays by.  It is also almost mandatory that such a calendar would
keep the weekly cycle, so in effect be a leap-week calendar.

IMHO the reform had already started.  Many products are dated by week
number (I have mentioned here car tires a few times), many companies
manage projects by the week, sometimes grouped into 13-week quarters
(most notable are TV program schedules), etc.

My prediction is that businesses would gradually fall into the habit
of using "week number / DOW" style of dating for more and more
purposes, and this method will gradually filter into people's private
lives as public offices and schools adopt it.  Initially it will be
used in parallel with the current calendar, then as people get used to
it, the Gregorian calendar would slip into the position of a religious
calendar used only for holidays.  I assume this would take a few
decades.

At some point along this process there would have to be a more or less
official agreement on standardizing week numbers; at this point the
calendar would become a true leap-week calendar.  I don't think there
would be an objection to use a more rational algorithm, different than
the currently used ISO8601 or Microsoft Outlook methods.  (Actually, I
believe very few people would even notice).

--
Amos Shapir.

[dpatte]

But I'd hate it that my birthday is always on the same day. Sometimes it would be nice to be on the weekend.
The fact that holidays move around is also nice, because sometimes they land on a weekend.

Christmas always on the same day of the week? nope - not my idea of fun.

Sometimes life can already seem too much like clockwork, its nice that the (non-perpetual) calendar at least provide some relief



On 2012-01-24 18:27, Sonny Pondrom wrote:

Dear David and Calendar People,

I'm looking forward to a perpetual 13 month calendar.  I would love to have my monthly meetings occur every four weeks.  I would love to have my monthly bills (a constant 28 days) come on the same day (1 extra each year, but each 7.7% less).  I would like to have my pay checks (4 per month (a constant 20 days of work) sent to my bank on the same day every month.  Doing so, would help me avoid late payments.       

Sonny Pondromsonny@..."YYYY-MM-W-D" 

On Jan 23, 2012, at 7:26 AM, David Patte wrote:

There certainly are alot of discussions here about a perpetual calendar - something i don't see as advantageous at all. 

A calendar should be representative of astronomical phenonena, where possible, but pinning days of the month to particular days of the week is not something I would enjoy, nor do I see it as representative of astronomical events in any way.

[Christopher Vance-8]

On 25 January 2012 10:37, Aristeo Fernando <peacecrusader888@...> wrote:
> I agree with Amos “that people can live with a religious calendar which is
> different than the business calendar.”  The Jews have their Jewish calendar;
> the Muslims, their Hegira calendar; the Chinese, their Chinese calendar;
> etc.  They co-exist with the de facto business primary official standard
> calendar of the world, the Gregorian calendar.  The Gregorian did not affect
> their Sabbath day.  How about if the Gregorian is made perpetual by
> introducing blank days, will they still accept a perpetualized Gregorian?

If you can't divide the year into 7 day weeks, why don't you just stop
pretending to try. Design a calendar without weeks, or pick a
different week length, or whatever...

Some religious organisations or some parts of them may adapt under
duress to a revised week with blank interruptions, but there will be
places where this is not accepted.

> What is being done is to unify their Sabbath days into one during the blank
> days.  Will this is acceptable to the religious at least once a year?

I have never heard a more futile suggestion on this list.

--
Christopher Vance

[Irv Bromberg]

On 2012 Jan 25, at 09:00 , Sonny Pondrom wrote:

And God told me, in a dream last night, that He would love to see all faiths come together and offer Him an extra Grand day of adoration every year and a Glorious day every four years. 

Confirmed, as I suspected -- you're certifiable.

[Amos Shapir-2]

My point is, why reform the Gregorian calendar at all, if we can have
a separate global business calendar, which is non-religious, and keep
the Gregorian for holidays only (in places where it is now used for
this purpose).  Of course it may help if the business calendar follows
the same week as many religious calendars.  IMHO the main objection to
reform is that it is viewed by many religious people as an attempt to
change their religious practices.

On Wed, Jan 25, 2012 at 1:37 AM, Aristeo Fernando
<peacecrusader888@...> wrote:

> 20120125.0900
>
> Dear Amos and Calendar People,
>
> I agree with Amos “that people can live with a religious calendar which is
> different than the business calendar.”  The Jews have their Jewish calendar;
> the Muslims, their Hegira calendar; the Chinese, their Chinese calendar;
> etc.  They co-exist with the de facto business primary official standard
> calendar of the world, the Gregorian calendar.  The Gregorian did not affect
> their Sabbath day.  How about if the Gregorian is made perpetual by
> introducing blank days, will they still accept a perpetualized Gregorian?
>
> What is being done is to unify their Sabbath days into one during the blank
> days.  Will this is acceptable to the religious at least once a year?
>
> Until now, the Eastern Orthodox churches still use the Julian calendar even
> though the Western churches have been using the Gregorian.
> Best regards,
> Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo of the Holy Spirit

--
Amos Shapir

[Irv Bromberg]

On 2012 Jan 24, at 18:42 , David Patte wrote:
> Sometimes life can already seem too much like clockwork, its nice that the (non-perpetual) calendar at least provide some relief

Perhaps you'd like it if clocks employed a variety of day lengths (or hour lengths or minute lengths) just to spice up your life?  Wouldn't that be lots of fun too?

A calendar is a time-keeping device, just as a clock is.
It should be as consistent, coherent, and monotonous as a clock is.
If you want "fun" then I suggest you look for calendars with attractive pictures, etc.

[Irv Bromberg]

On 2012 Jan 24, at 18:37 , Aristeo Fernando wrote:

What is being done is to unify their Sabbath days into one during the blank days.  Will this is acceptable to the religious at least once a year?  

There is zero chance of that being accepted by any of the major religions that conserve the traditional 7-day sabbatical cycle.

Inserting extra blank days and regarding them as if they are extra sabbaths won't appease the observant religious.

[dpatte]

I don't see this argument at all. Our societies give preferential
treatment to certain days of the week. This is totally different than
minutes.

Encouraging people to have 'special' birthdays is just a bad idea all
around. Birthdays are probably the most important date on the calendar
for people, unless you are religious, and giving some people saturday,
and others monday, is just not reasonable.

People born on Feb 29th can probably attest to this better than I can.


On 2012-01-25 22:29, Irv Bromberg wrote:
> On 2012 Jan 24, at 18:42 , David Patte wrote:
>> Sometimes life can already seem too much like clockwork, its nice that the (non-perpetual) calendar at least provide some relief
> Perhaps you'd like it if clocks employed a variety of day lengths (or hour lengths or minute lengths) just to spice up your life?  Wouldn't that be lots of fun too?
>
> A calendar is a time-keeping device, just as a clock is.
> It should be as consistent, coherent, and monotonous as a clock is.
> If you want "fun" then I suggest you look for calendars with attractive pictures, etc.


--
 

[Christopher Vance-8]

> And God told me, in a dream last night, that He would love to see all faiths
> come together and offer Him an extra Grand day of adoration every year and a
> Glorious day every four years.

There are two types of nutters on this list: the delusional who claim
to speak for God, and the ones who see religious conspiracies in
everything.

At least I now have another name to ignore.

--
Christopher Vance

[Peace Crusader]

20120126.1510

@Christopher Vance

Why is your name CHRISTopher Vance?  Are you a CHRISTian? 

At least, when WE talk to a holy spirit who we cannot see but who we can hear, we can record on audio tape our conversation.  That is the tangible proof of our communication with what I believe is the Holy Spirit, the spirit of Jesus Christ.

Best regards,
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo of the Holy Spirit
Motto: pro aris et focis (for the sake of, or defense of, religion and home)
http://aristean.org/ and http://peacecrusader.wordpress.com/
"The Internet is mightier than the sword."

From: Christopher Vance <cjsvance@...>
To: CALNDR-L@...
Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2012 2:18 PM
Subject: Re: Sabbaths to make calendar perpetual

> And God told me, in a dream last night, that He would love to see all faiths
> come together and offer Him an extra Grand day of adoration every year and a
> Glorious day every four years.

There are two types of nutters on this list: the delusional who claim
to speak for God, and the ones who see religious conspiracies in
everything.

At least I now have another name to ignore.

--
Christopher Vance

[Christopher Vance-8]

On 26 January 2012 16:19, Aristeo Fernando <peacecrusader888@...> wrote:
> Why is your name CHRISTopher Vance?  Are you a CHRISTian?

Since you've asked publicly, I feel obliged to answer publicly. I am
Christian by conviction, not because of my name, where I was born, or
where I live.

> At least, when WE talk to a holy spirit who we cannot see but who we can
> hear, we can record on audio tape our conversation.  That is the tangible
> proof of our communication with what I believe is the Holy Spirit, the
> spirit of Jesus Christ.

The spirit you hear from does not appear to me to have anything to do
with Christ or Christianity; I still believe you are deluded, not
least because of the things you write. I believe the vast majority of
Christians would dismiss what you write for the same reason.

I do not believe it appropriate to discuss this any further on the list.

--
Christopher Vance

[Peace Crusader]

20120126.1955

@Christopher Vance

Thank you for announcing your conviction that you are a Christian.

I do not force anyone to believe in what I believe in.  Do you know that religion is not a guarantee for one to go to Heaven?  Salvation depends upon one’s belief and deeds.

The Aristean calendar was inspired to me while I was driving to work one January 1992 morning.  The inspiration says “31-30-30, start on Monday”.  That’s all.  ‘That must be a calendar,’ I said to myself.  When I reached the office, I worked it out.  Then that evening, I checked the Library if there is such a calendar.  I learned about the proposed World Calendar, but it starts on Sunday.  I easily worked out that the 365^th day would be December 31, but a noweekday to make it perpetual.  It took me months to decide where to place the Leap Year Day.  I had been inclined to put it on November 31, but finally, decided in about September to place it on June 31 to balance the year.

It was on the front page of Fairfield Advance on 1992-11-03 titled “Time on his hands”.  It was televised in Australia’s Channel 9’s National Nine News on 1992-12-02.  And then in 1994-09-01 on Current House Hansard, page 949, it was presented by our Member of Parliament Chris Haviland in the Australian Parliament.

Best regards,

Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo of the Holy Spirit
Motto: pro aris et focis (for the sake of, or defense of, religion and home)
http://aristean.org/ and http://peacecrusader.wordpress.com/
"The Internet is mightier than the sword."

From: Christopher Vance <cjsvance@...>
To: CALNDR-L@...
Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2012 6:14 PM
Subject: Re: Sabbaths to make calendar perpetual

On 26 January 2012 16:19, Aristeo Fernando <peacecrusader888@...> wrote:
> Why is your name CHRISTopher Vance?  Are you a CHRISTian?

Since you've asked publicly, I feel obliged to answer publicly. I am
Christian by conviction, not because of my name, where I was born, or
where I live.

> At least, when WE talk to a holy spirit who we cannot see but who we can
> hear, we can record on audio tape our conversation.  That is the tangible
> proof of our communication with what I believe is the Holy Spirit, the
> spirit of Jesus Christ.

The spirit you hear from does not appear to me to have anything to do
with Christ or Christianity; I still believe you are deluded, not
least because of the things you write. I believe the vast majority of
Christians would dismiss what you write for the same reason.

I do not believe it appropriate to discuss this any further on the list.

--
Christopher Vance

[Peter Zilahy Ingerman, PhD]

I admire your finely developed sense of understatement, Chris!

Pzed!

On 2012-01-25 23:18, Christopher Vance wrote:
>> And God told me, in a dream last night, that He would love to see all faiths
>> come together and offer Him an extra Grand day of adoration every year and a
>> Glorious day every four years.
> There are two types of nutters on this list: the delusional who claim
> to speak for God, and the ones who see religious conspiracies in
> everything.
>
> At least I now have another name to ignore.
>

[Irv Bromberg]

On 2012 Jan 26, at 09:12 , Sonny Pondrom wrote:
> I am sorry you were offended by my joke.  Everyone knows that God does not talk to me.  Enjoy life before you turn to dust.  :-)

Actually God does talk to you.  However it is clear that you aren't listening because you keep pushing for null weekdays!