Score Alignment Utility

[peiman]

Hi,

Are you using csound~ external inside max?

On a different note I would like to see one thing in csound, a better and easier framework for GUI design. I find the FLTK opcodes too tricky and some very important features like file browser or a real time table editor and a selectable waveform viewer are missing, besides the FLTK stuff doesn't work as it should on Leopard with the current tiger build of csound. Supercollider has an amazing set of objects for GUI design. At the moment I am using max to design GUIs for my csound instruments but not everyone can afford max.

Again I love csladspa but I would love to be able to build csound [AU] plugins on the mac with fancy-ish GUIs (GUI design is minimal with csladspa as ladspa pluigins don't support elaborate GUIs). This is possible with pluggo and max/msp but unfortunately Cycling74 is no longer continuing the development of pluggo (this has been officially announced) in max5 which means it is no longer worth designing pluggo plugins as no one will be using max 4 in the near future. 

Thanks
Peiman

 

2009/7/5 Jason Adams <jadams1@...>

First off let me say that i'm new to this world (lovin' it, but still new), but i think the biggest thing that is/was standing in the way for myself to really dig in was the translation.  It was figuring out what the heck a "modified hyperbolic tangent distortion" is in laymans terms... (which is somewhat like a morphable distortion from soft clipping to hard clipping, in musical terms)  although the manual is amazing in that distort1 is exactly what it says, a "modified hyperbolic tangent distortion".  i laughed at a few of the definitions right off the bat, even thought they are spot on, i had to translate the technical, exact definition into musical language that i understand. 

i think mike has some good suggestions... practical, building block toots, for those who can't afford/have-access-to the Csound book.  -using Csound with sequencers/DAWs, that would be amazing... i'm currently trying to figure how to pipe audio from max into Csound to do live granular/chopping/mayhem/resonating-Lanksy-style electric bass performance stuff and it's been a realy pain (i had little idea of where to start). 

this said, as a newb... i can't believe not only how active the community is (my inbox is constantly full) but also how interested you cats are in bring Csound to the masses while at the same time figuring out uber-geeky ways of making this program better (perhaps why i have come to really like this community... ah, the comfort in discovering like-minded individuals).

best of luck in this... there is any way i could be of service my email is available... heck, here it is... jadams1@...

ciao
jAdams

---------------------------------------
Original E-mail
From: Mike Moser-Booth <mmoserbooth@...>
Date: 07/05/2009 12:23 AM
To: csound@...
Subject: [Csnd] Re: How to make Csound more user-friendly

 

I definitely agree that a sort of practical guide would go a long way to help new users of Csound. I think it might be worth taking a look at what other music programming environments have done in this area. Max/MSP and Pd immediately come to mind here. They both come with fairly extensive tutorials that start with the most basic "Hello World" patches and work their way up to more complicated techniques in a logical progression. Not only are the techniques practical themselves, but they are made more so by the fact information from preceding tutorials are applicable to later tutorials, thus making concepts that may initially seem out of reach more accessible. I know that seems elementary, but it seems to be lacking quite a bit in Csound world. So many tutorials are scattered in different sources and often assume a prior knowledge that one must search elsewhere to find. Dr. B's TOOTS are the only thing that immediately comes to mind that even comes close to fulfilling this paradigm, as they address the absolute beginner and build up from there.

I would be very willing to contribute to a project like this. Just a couple of things I would add to your list, Joachim, off the top of my head:
-using Csound in conjunction with sequencers/DAWs
-a general "Using the Command Line" tutorial, as most people these days simply don't use it and don't have a clue

.mmb

joachim heintz wrote:

I'd like to discuss this more in detail. I'd appreciate if we could define some subjects/ projects: what must be done to improve the user-friendlyness of Csound, and how can it be done? If there is a consensus about some points, we could perhaps have some groups of people who are willing to contribute to a certain issue.  
 
To begin with my own opinion: I'd like to have something like a practical guide (and contribute to it) to the different approaches of Csound. There should be good examples with rather short explanations to the different chapters of Csound, including  
- general configuration  
- working with live input  
- working with MIDI  
- loop constructions and event management  
- classical sound synthesis  
- granular synthesis  
- spectral processing  
- working with the API  
- using Csound and the utilities with Shell Scripts  
- and and and ...  
 
The goal of this practical guide would be:  
1) to collect the most important informations about the different ways of using Csound (for example, "what you should know about commandline flags", "what you should know when you work with MIDI input")  
2) to give hints about which opcodes can be used for the different approaches, uncluding some kind of selection (for example, the pvs opcodes are actually replacing some older opcodes, or poscil can be used instead of oscil also for non-power-of-two function tables)  
3) to show a rich collection of good examples: good in programming, with interesting musical results.  
 
What others think about this? And are there other items, perhaps more necessary?  
 
    joachim  
 
 
Am 29.06.2009 um 00:51 schrieb Jacob Joaquin:  
 
 

Csound is not user-friendly.  If developers and others in the community spent    
a full year working towards improving the user-experience, while putting on    
hold everything else Csound related, this would be time well spent.  People    
are easily turned off the number of hoops they have to jump through -    
whether its issues with Python, or just rendering a file.  Csound is    
supposed to be an instrument of musical expression, not a technical hurdle.    
   
In my humble opinion.  :)    
   
 

 
 
 
Send bugs reports to this list.  
To unsubscribe, send email sympa@... with body "unsubscribe csound"  

[joachim heintz]

Hi Peiman -

as to the GUI: did you try QuteCsound? For me it's exactly what you  
request (and what I was looking for before Andrés did it). Or what is  
different in SC's GUI objects?

Ciao -
        joachim



Am 05.07.2009 um 11:32 schrieb peiman khosravi:

> Hi,
>
> Are you using csound~ external inside max?
>
> On a different note I would like to see one thing in csound, a  
> better and easier framework for GUI design. I find the FLTK opcodes  
> too tricky and some very important features like file browser or a  
> real time table editor and a selectable waveform viewer are missing,  
> besides the FLTK stuff doesn't work as it should on Leopard with the  
> current tiger build of csound. Supercollider has an amazing set of  
> objects for GUI design. At the moment I am using max to design GUIs  
> for my csound instruments but not everyone can afford max.
>
> Again I love csladspa but I would love to be able to build csound  
> [AU] plugins on the mac with fancy-ish GUIs (GUI design is minimal  
> with csladspa as ladspa pluigins don't support elaborate GUIs). This  
> is possible with pluggo and max/msp but unfortunately Cycling74 is  
> no longer continuing the development of pluggo (this has been  
> officially announced) in max5 which means it is no longer worth  
> designing pluggo plugins as no one will be using max 4 in the near  
> future.
>
> Thanks
> Peiman
>
>
>
> 2009/7/5 Jason Adams <jadams1@...>
> First off let me say that i'm new to this world (lovin' it, but  
> still new), but i think the biggest thing that is/was standing in  
> the way for myself to really dig in was the translation.  It was  
> figuring out what the heck a "modified hyperbolic tangent  
> distortion" is in laymans terms... (which is somewhat like a  
> morphable distortion from soft clipping to hard clipping, in musical  
> terms)  although the manual is amazing in that distort1 is exactly  
> what it says, a "modified hyperbolic tangent distortion".  i laughed  
> at a few of the definitions right off the bat, even thought they are  
> spot on, i had to translate the technical, exact definition into  
> musical language that i understand.
>
> i think mike has some good suggestions... practical, building block  
> toots, for those who can't afford/have-access-to the Csound book.  -
> using Csound with sequencers/DAWs, that would be amazing... i'm  
> currently trying to figure how to pipe audio from max into Csound to  
> do live granular/chopping/mayhem/resonating-Lanksy-style electric  
> bass performance stuff and it's been a realy pain (i had little idea  
> of where to start).
>
> this said, as a newb... i can't believe not only how active the  
> community is (my inbox is constantly full) but also how interested  
> you cats are in bring Csound to the masses while at the same time  
> figuring out uber-geeky ways of making this program better (perhaps  
> why i have come to really like this community... ah, the comfort in  
> discovering like-minded individuals).
>
> best of luck in this... there is any way i could be of service my  
> email is available... heck, here it is... jadams1@...
>
> ciao
> jAdams
> ---------------------------------------
> Original E-mail
> From: Mike Moser-Booth <mmoserbooth@...>
> Date: 07/05/2009 12:23 AM
> To: csound@...
> Subject: [Csnd] Re: How to make Csound more user-friendly
>
>
> I definitely agree that a sort of practical guide would go a long  
> way to help new users of Csound. I think it might be worth taking a  
> look at what other music programming environments have done in this  
> area. Max/MSP and Pd immediately come to mind here. They both come  
> with fairly extensive tutorials that start with the most basic  
> "Hello World" patches and work their way up to more complicated  
> techniques in a logical progression. Not only are the techniques  
> practical themselves, but they are made more so by the fact  
> information from preceding tutorials are applicable to later  
> tutorials, thus making concepts that may initially seem out of reach  
> more accessible. I know that seems elementary, but it seems to be  
> lacking quite a bit in Csound world. So many tutorials are scattered  
> in different sources and often assume a prior knowledge that one  
> must search elsewhere to find. Dr. B's TOOTS are the only thing that  
> immediately comes to mind that even comes close to fulfilling this  
> paradigm, as they address the absolute beginner and build up from  
> there.
>
> I would be very willing to contribute to a project like this. Just a  
> couple of things I would add to your list, Joachim, off the top of  
> my head:
> -using Csound in conjunction with sequencers/DAWs
> -a general "Using the Command Line" tutorial, as most people these  
> days simply don't use it and don't have a clue
>
> .mmb
>
> joachim heintz wrote:
>>
>> I'd like to discuss this more in detail. I'd appreciate if we could  
>> define some subjects/ projects: what must be done to improve the  
>> user-friendlyness of Csound, and how can it be done? If there is a  
>> consensus about some points, we could perhaps have some groups of  
>> people who are willing to contribute to a certain issue.
>>
>> To begin with my own opinion: I'd like to have something like a  
>> practical guide (and contribute to it) to the different approaches  
>> of Csound. There should be good examples with rather short  
>> explanations to the different chapters of Csound, including
>> - general configuration
>> - working with live input
>> - working with MIDI
>> - loop constructions and event management
>> - classical sound synthesis
>> - granular synthesis
>> - spectral processing
>> - working with the API
>> - using Csound and the utilities with Shell Scripts
>> - and and and ...
>>
>> The goal of this practical guide would be:
>> 1) to collect the most important informations about the different  
>> ways of using Csound (for example, "what you should know about  
>> commandline flags", "what you should know when you work with MIDI  
>> input")
>> 2) to give hints about which opcodes can be used for the different  
>> approaches, uncluding some kind of selection (for example, the pvs  
>> opcodes are actually replacing some older opcodes, or poscil can be  
>> used instead of oscil also for non-power-of-two function tables)
>> 3) to show a rich collection of good examples: good in programming,  
>> with interesting musical results.
>>
>> What others think about this? And are there other items, perhaps  
>> more necessary?
>>
>>     joachim
>>
>>
>> Am 29.06.2009 um 00:51 schrieb Jacob Joaquin:
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Csound is not user-friendly.  If developers and others in the  
>>> community spent
>>> a full year working towards improving the user-experience, while  
>>> putting on
>>> hold everything else Csound related, this would be time well  
>>> spent.  People
>>> are easily turned off the number of hoops they have to jump  
>>> through -
>>> whether its issues with Python, or just rendering a file.  Csound is
>>> supposed to be an instrument of musical expression, not a  
>>> technical hurdle.
>>>
>>> In my humble opinion.  :)
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@... with body  
>> "unsubscribe csound"
>
>

Send bugs reports to this list.
To unsubscribe, send email sympa@... with body "unsubscribe csound"

[peiman]

Hi,

Yes I love QuteCsound and blue as front-ends but I was thinking that csound itself should include opcodes that can be hardcoded in the score and are platform independent (like the FLTK). In his way GUIs can be designed in such a way that even someone not knowing anything about csound can use them (like cecilia) without requiring extra front-ends. Maybe even a utility for easily designing FLTK GUIs is sufficient + we badly need a line/table editor, a file browser and a selectable waveform viewer they are also missing in QuteCsound (this is not a complain I think QuteCsound is great and I'm sure Andres will add these features at some point). 

Best

Peiman 

2009/7/5 joachim heintz <jh@...>

Hi Peiman -

as to the GUI: did you try QuteCsound? For me it's exactly what you request (and what I was looking for before Andrés did it). Or what is different in SC's GUI objects?

Ciao -
       joachim



Am 05.07.2009 um 11:32 schrieb peiman khosravi:

Hi,

Are you using csound~ external inside max?

On a different note I would like to see one thing in csound, a better and easier framework for GUI design. I find the FLTK opcodes too tricky and some very important features like file browser or a real time table editor and a selectable waveform viewer are missing, besides the FLTK stuff doesn't work as it should on Leopard with the current tiger build of csound. Supercollider has an amazing set of objects for GUI design. At the moment I am using max to design GUIs for my csound instruments but not everyone can afford max.

Again I love csladspa but I would love to be able to build csound [AU] plugins on the mac with fancy-ish GUIs (GUI design is minimal with csladspa as ladspa pluigins don't support elaborate GUIs). This is possible with pluggo and max/msp but unfortunately Cycling74 is no longer continuing the development of pluggo (this has been officially announced) in max5 which means it is no longer worth designing pluggo plugins as no one will be using max 4 in the near future.

Thanks
Peiman



2009/7/5 Jason Adams <jadams1@...>
First off let me say that i'm new to this world (lovin' it, but still new), but i think the biggest thing that is/was standing in the way for myself to really dig in was the translation.  It was figuring out what the heck a "modified hyperbolic tangent distortion" is in laymans terms... (which is somewhat like a morphable distortion from soft clipping to hard clipping, in musical terms)  although the manual is amazing in that distort1 is exactly what it says, a "modified hyperbolic tangent distortion".  i laughed at a few of the definitions right off the bat, even thought they are spot on, i had to translate the technical, exact definition into musical language that i understand.

i think mike has some good suggestions... practical, building block toots, for those who can't afford/have-access-to the Csound book.  -using Csound with sequencers/DAWs, that would be amazing... i'm currently trying to figure how to pipe audio from max into Csound to do live granular/chopping/mayhem/resonating-Lanksy-style electric bass performance stuff and it's been a realy pain (i had little idea of where to start).

this said, as a newb... i can't believe not only how active the community is (my inbox is constantly full) but also how interested you cats are in bring Csound to the masses while at the same time figuring out uber-geeky ways of making this program better (perhaps why i have come to really like this community... ah, the comfort in discovering like-minded individuals).

best of luck in this... there is any way i could be of service my email is available... heck, here it is... jadams1@...

ciao
jAdams
---------------------------------------
Original E-mail
From: Mike Moser-Booth <mmoserbooth@...>
Date: 07/05/2009 12:23 AM
To: csound@...
Subject: [Csnd] Re: How to make Csound more user-friendly


I definitely agree that a sort of practical guide would go a long way to help new users of Csound. I think it might be worth taking a look at what other music programming environments have done in this area. Max/MSP and Pd immediately come to mind here. They both come with fairly extensive tutorials that start with the most basic "Hello World" patches and work their way up to more complicated techniques in a logical progression. Not only are the techniques practical themselves, but they are made more so by the fact information from preceding tutorials are applicable to later tutorials, thus making concepts that may initially seem out of reach more accessible. I know that seems elementary, but it seems to be lacking quite a bit in Csound world. So many tutorials are scattered in different sources and often assume a prior knowledge that one must search elsewhere to find. Dr. B's TOOTS are the only thing that immediately comes to mind that even comes close to fulfilling this paradigm, as they address the absolute beginner and build up from there.

I would be very willing to contribute to a project like this. Just a couple of things I would add to your list, Joachim, off the top of my head:
-using Csound in conjunction with sequencers/DAWs
-a general "Using the Command Line" tutorial, as most people these days simply don't use it and don't have a clue

.mmb

joachim heintz wrote:

I'd like to discuss this more in detail. I'd appreciate if we could define some subjects/ projects: what must be done to improve the user-friendlyness of Csound, and how can it be done? If there is a consensus about some points, we could perhaps have some groups of people who are willing to contribute to a certain issue.

To begin with my own opinion: I'd like to have something like a practical guide (and contribute to it) to the different approaches of Csound. There should be good examples with rather short explanations to the different chapters of Csound, including
- general configuration
- working with live input
- working with MIDI
- loop constructions and event management
- classical sound synthesis
- granular synthesis
- spectral processing
- working with the API
- using Csound and the utilities with Shell Scripts
- and and and ...

The goal of this practical guide would be:
1) to collect the most important informations about the different ways of using Csound (for example, "what you should know about commandline flags", "what you should know when you work with MIDI input")
2) to give hints about which opcodes can be used for the different approaches, uncluding some kind of selection (for example, the pvs opcodes are actually replacing some older opcodes, or poscil can be used instead of oscil also for non-power-of-two function tables)
3) to show a rich collection of good examples: good in programming, with interesting musical results.

What others think about this? And are there other items, perhaps more necessary?

   joachim


Am 29.06.2009 um 00:51 schrieb Jacob Joaquin:

Csound is not user-friendly.  If developers and others in the community spent
a full year working towards improving the user-experience, while putting on
hold everything else Csound related, this would be time well spent.  People
are easily turned off the number of hoops they have to jump through -
whether its issues with Python, or just rendering a file.  Csound is
supposed to be an instrument of musical expression, not a technical hurdle.

In my humble opinion.  :)

Send bugs reports to this list.
To unsubscribe, send email sympa@... with body "unsubscribe csound"

Send bugs reports to this list.
To unsubscribe, send email sympa@... with body "unsubscribe csound"

[Michael Gogins-2]

There are many environment variables. I think there should be a
sensible default for each.

Also, is there a Linux default for both 32 bit and 64 bit sample
builds of Csound?

Regards,
Mike

On 7/4/09, Felipe Sateler <fsateler@...> wrote:

> Doesn't csound have a default path for all of the env variables? For
> opcodes in linux there is...
>
> On 04/07/2009, Michael Gogins <michael.gogins@...> wrote:
>> OK, no environment variables. Then Csound must search specific paths
>> for plugin opcodes, samples, and so on.
>>
>> I would prefer this myself.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Mike
>>
>> On 7/4/09, jpff <jpff@...> wrote:
>> >>>>>> "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?St=E9phane" == =?ISO-8859-1?Q?St=E9phane
>> >>>>>> Rollandin?=
>> >>>>>> <lecteur@...> writes:
>> >
>> >  >> No environment variables; no installer; different versions of Csound
>> > can
>> >  >> coexist without problems.
>> >
>> >  =?ISO-8859-1?Q?St=E9phane> We have been asking for this for ages...
>> >
>> >  =?ISO-8859-1?Q?St=E9phane> Stef
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > So have I (re environment variables) .....
>> >
>> > ==John ffitch
>> >
>> >
>> > Send bugs reports to this list.
>> > To unsubscribe, send email sympa@... with body "unsubscribe
>> > csound"
>> >
>>
>>
>> --
>> Michael Gogins
>> Irreducible Productions
>> http://www.michael-gogins.com
>> Michael dot Gogins at gmail dot com
>>
>>
>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@... with body "unsubscribe
>> csound"
>>
>
>
> --
>
> Saludos,
> Felipe Sateler
>
>
> Send bugs reports to this list.
> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@... with body "unsubscribe
> csound"
>

--
Michael Gogins
Irreducible Productions
http://www.michael-gogins.com
Michael dot Gogins at gmail dot com


Send bugs reports to this list.
To unsubscribe, send email sympa@... with body "unsubscribe csound"

[Andres Cabrera]

Hi,

On Sun, Jul 5, 2009 at 8:14 AM, peiman khosravi<peimankhosravi@...> wrote:
> Hi,
> Yes I love QuteCsound and blue as front-ends but I was thinking that csound
> itself should include opcodes that can be hardcoded in the score and are
> platform independent (like the FLTK). In his way GUIs can be designed in
> such a way that even someone not knowing anything about csound can use them
> (like cecilia) without requiring extra

QuteCsound is crossplatform (and a frontend like cecilia...). The
widgets are not part of the score, but they are part of the csd file,
even though QuteCsound hides this part.

> front-ends. Maybe even a utility for easily designing FLTK GUIs is
> sufficient + we badly need a line/table editor, a file browser and a
> selectable waveform viewer they are also missing in QuteCsound (this is not
> a complain I think QuteCsound is great and I'm sure Andres will add these
> features at some point).

The only bad complaint is a silent complaint... =) There's no
line/table editor yet, as I'm not sure how viable it is as everytime
the table is changed, the whole table (or a large part of it) must be
passed to Csound which may be too expensive.

The other two are already available, you can browse files using the
_Browse channels (seems hacky, but I'm still trying to stay somewhat
compatible with MacCsound), see the . You can view the ftables with
the graph widget (which will also show the output of dispftt and
display).

Cheers,
Andrés

> Best
> Peiman
> 2009/7/5 joachim heintz <jh@...>
>>
>> Hi Peiman -
>>
>> as to the GUI: did you try QuteCsound? For me it's exactly what you
>> request (and what I was looking for before Andrés did it). Or what is
>> different in SC's GUI objects?
>>
>> Ciao -
>>        joachim
>>
>>
>>
>> Am 05.07.2009 um 11:32 schrieb peiman khosravi:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> Are you using csound~ external inside max?
>>>
>>> On a different note I would like to see one thing in csound, a better and
>>> easier framework for GUI design. I find the FLTK opcodes too tricky and some
>>> very important features like file browser or a real time table editor and a
>>> selectable waveform viewer are missing, besides the FLTK stuff doesn't work
>>> as it should on Leopard with the current tiger build of csound.
>>> Supercollider has an amazing set of objects for GUI design. At the moment I
>>> am using max to design GUIs for my csound instruments but not everyone can
>>> afford max.
>>>
>>> Again I love csladspa but I would love to be able to build csound [AU]
>>> plugins on the mac with fancy-ish GUIs (GUI design is minimal with csladspa
>>> as ladspa pluigins don't support elaborate GUIs). This is possible with
>>> pluggo and max/msp but unfortunately Cycling74 is no longer continuing the
>>> development of pluggo (this has been officially announced) in max5 which
>>> means it is no longer worth designing pluggo plugins as no one will be using
>>> max 4 in the near future.
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>> Peiman
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 2009/7/5 Jason Adams <jadams1@...>
>>> First off let me say that i'm new to this world (lovin' it, but still
>>> new), but i think the biggest thing that is/was standing in the way for
>>> myself to really dig in was the translation.  It was figuring out what the
>>> heck a "modified hyperbolic tangent distortion" is in laymans terms...
>>> (which is somewhat like a morphable distortion from soft clipping to hard
>>> clipping, in musical terms)  although the manual is amazing in that distort1
>>> is exactly what it says, a "modified hyperbolic tangent distortion".  i
>>> laughed at a few of the definitions right off the bat, even thought they are
>>> spot on, i had to translate the technical, exact definition into musical
>>> language that i understand.
>>>
>>> i think mike has some good suggestions... practical, building block
>>> toots, for those who can't afford/have-access-to the Csound book.  -using
>>> Csound with sequencers/DAWs, that would be amazing... i'm currently trying
>>> to figure how to pipe audio from max into Csound to do live
>>> granular/chopping/mayhem/resonating-Lanksy-style electric bass performance
>>> stuff and it's been a realy pain (i had little idea of where to start).
>>>
>>> this said, as a newb... i can't believe not only how active the community
>>> is (my inbox is constantly full) but also how interested you cats are in
>>> bring Csound to the masses while at the same time figuring out uber-geeky
>>> ways of making this program better (perhaps why i have come to really like
>>> this community... ah, the comfort in discovering like-minded individuals).
>>>
>>> best of luck in this... there is any way i could be of service my email
>>> is available... heck, here it is... jadams1@...
>>>
>>> ciao
>>> jAdams
>>> ---------------------------------------
>>> Original E-mail
>>> From: Mike Moser-Booth <mmoserbooth@...>
>>> Date: 07/05/2009 12:23 AM
>>> To: csound@...
>>> Subject: [Csnd] Re: How to make Csound more user-friendly
>>>
>>>
>>> I definitely agree that a sort of practical guide would go a long way to
>>> help new users of Csound. I think it might be worth taking a look at what
>>> other music programming environments have done in this area. Max/MSP and Pd
>>> immediately come to mind here. They both come with fairly extensive
>>> tutorials that start with the most basic "Hello World" patches and work
>>> their way up to more complicated techniques in a logical progression. Not
>>> only are the techniques practical themselves, but they are made more so by
>>> the fact information from preceding tutorials are applicable to later
>>> tutorials, thus making concepts that may initially seem out of reach more
>>> accessible. I know that seems elementary, but it seems to be lacking quite a
>>> bit in Csound world. So many tutorials are scattered in different sources
>>> and often assume a prior knowledge that one must search elsewhere to find.
>>> Dr. B's TOOTS are the only thing that immediately comes to mind that even
>>> comes close to fulfilling this paradigm, as they address the absolute
>>> beginner and build up from there.
>>>
>>> I would be very willing to contribute to a project like this. Just a
>>> couple of things I would add to your list, Joachim, off the top of my head:
>>> -using Csound in conjunction with sequencers/DAWs
>>> -a general "Using the Command Line" tutorial, as most people these days
>>> simply don't use it and don't have a clue
>>>
>>> .mmb
>>>
>>> joachim heintz wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I'd like to discuss this more in detail. I'd appreciate if we could
>>>> define some subjects/ projects: what must be done to improve the
>>>> user-friendlyness of Csound, and how can it be done? If there is a consensus
>>>> about some points, we could perhaps have some groups of people who are
>>>> willing to contribute to a certain issue.
>>>>
>>>> To begin with my own opinion: I'd like to have something like a
>>>> practical guide (and contribute to it) to the different approaches of
>>>> Csound. There should be good examples with rather short explanations to the
>>>> different chapters of Csound, including
>>>> - general configuration
>>>> - working with live input
>>>> - working with MIDI
>>>> - loop constructions and event management
>>>> - classical sound synthesis
>>>> - granular synthesis
>>>> - spectral processing
>>>> - working with the API
>>>> - using Csound and the utilities with Shell Scripts
>>>> - and and and ...
>>>>
>>>> The goal of this practical guide would be:
>>>> 1) to collect the most important informations about the different ways
>>>> of using Csound (for example, "what you should know about commandline
>>>> flags", "what you should know when you work with MIDI input")
>>>> 2) to give hints about which opcodes can be used for the different
>>>> approaches, uncluding some kind of selection (for example, the pvs opcodes
>>>> are actually replacing some older opcodes, or poscil can be used instead of
>>>> oscil also for non-power-of-two function tables)
>>>> 3) to show a rich collection of good examples: good in programming, with
>>>> interesting musical results.
>>>>
>>>> What others think about this? And are there other items, perhaps more
>>>> necessary?
>>>>
>>>>    joachim
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Am 29.06.2009 um 00:51 schrieb Jacob Joaquin:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Csound is not user-friendly.  If developers and others in the community
>>>>> spent
>>>>> a full year working towards improving the user-experience, while
>>>>> putting on
>>>>> hold everything else Csound related, this would be time well spent.
>>>>>  People
>>>>> are easily turned off the number of hoops they have to jump through -
>>>>> whether its issues with Python, or just rendering a file.  Csound is
>>>>> supposed to be an instrument of musical expression, not a technical
>>>>> hurdle.
>>>>>
>>>>> In my humble opinion.  :)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>>>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@... with body "unsubscribe
>>>> csound"
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@... with body "unsubscribe
>> csound"
>

--


Andrés


Send bugs reports to this list.
To unsubscribe, send email sympa@... with body "unsubscribe csound"

[Dr. Richard Boulanger]

Andres,

It is a wonderful front-end ... and it keeps getting better all the  
time.  An amazing piece of work.
The fact that it is cross-platform now (i was using it on the PC this  
evening running XP)...

also wonderful.

Looking forward to your continued improvements.

For sure it needs to be included with the PC builds - and distributed  
with Csound (so that it
is there waiting for the beginner - the minute they install Csound.  
Absolutely love that
it has so many wonderful examples built in too.

-dB


On Jul 5, 2009, at 10:35 PM, Andres Cabrera wrote:

> Hi,
>
> On Sun, Jul 5, 2009 at 8:14 AM, peiman khosravi<peimankhosravi@...
> > wrote:
>> Hi,
>> Yes I love QuteCsound and blue as front-ends but I was thinking  
>> that csound
>> itself should include opcodes that can be hardcoded in the score  
>> and are
>> platform independent (like the FLTK). In his way GUIs can be  
>> designed in
>> such a way that even someone not knowing anything about csound can  
>> use them
>> (like cecilia) without requiring extra
>
> QuteCsound is crossplatform (and a frontend like cecilia...). The
> widgets are not part of the score, but they are part of the csd file,
> even though QuteCsound hides this part.
>
>> front-ends. Maybe even a utility for easily designing FLTK GUIs is
>> sufficient + we badly need a line/table editor, a file browser and a
>> selectable waveform viewer they are also missing in QuteCsound  
>> (this is not
>> a complain I think QuteCsound is great and I'm sure Andres will add  
>> these
>> features at some point).
>
> The only bad complaint is a silent complaint... =) There's no
> line/table editor yet, as I'm not sure how viable it is as everytime
> the table is changed, the whole table (or a large part of it) must be
> passed to Csound which may be too expensive.
>
> The other two are already available, you can browse files using the
> _Browse channels (seems hacky, but I'm still trying to stay somewhat
> compatible with MacCsound), see the . You can view the ftables with
> the graph widget (which will also show the output of dispftt and
> display).
>
> Cheers,
> Andrés
>
>> Best
>> Peiman
>> 2009/7/5 joachim heintz <jh@...>
>>>
>>> Hi Peiman -
>>>
>>> as to the GUI: did you try QuteCsound? For me it's exactly what you
>>> request (and what I was looking for before Andrés did it). Or what  
>>> is
>>> different in SC's GUI objects?
>>>
>>> Ciao -
>>>        joachim
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Am 05.07.2009 um 11:32 schrieb peiman khosravi:
>>>
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> Are you using csound~ external inside max?
>>>>
>>>> On a different note I would like to see one thing in csound, a  
>>>> better and
>>>> easier framework for GUI design. I find the FLTK opcodes too  
>>>> tricky and some
>>>> very important features like file browser or a real time table  
>>>> editor and a
>>>> selectable waveform viewer are missing, besides the FLTK stuff  
>>>> doesn't work
>>>> as it should on Leopard with the current tiger build of csound.
>>>> Supercollider has an amazing set of objects for GUI design. At  
>>>> the moment I
>>>> am using max to design GUIs for my csound instruments but not  
>>>> everyone can
>>>> afford max.
>>>>
>>>> Again I love csladspa but I would love to be able to build csound  
>>>> [AU]
>>>> plugins on the mac with fancy-ish GUIs (GUI design is minimal  
>>>> with csladspa
>>>> as ladspa pluigins don't support elaborate GUIs). This is  
>>>> possible with
>>>> pluggo and max/msp but unfortunately Cycling74 is no longer  
>>>> continuing the
>>>> development of pluggo (this has been officially announced) in  
>>>> max5 which
>>>> means it is no longer worth designing pluggo plugins as no one  
>>>> will be using
>>>> max 4 in the near future.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks
>>>> Peiman
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 2009/7/5 Jason Adams <jadams1@...>
>>>> First off let me say that i'm new to this world (lovin' it, but  
>>>> still
>>>> new), but i think the biggest thing that is/was standing in the  
>>>> way for
>>>> myself to really dig in was the translation.  It was figuring out  
>>>> what the
>>>> heck a "modified hyperbolic tangent distortion" is in laymans  
>>>> terms...
>>>> (which is somewhat like a morphable distortion from soft clipping  
>>>> to hard
>>>> clipping, in musical terms)  although the manual is amazing in  
>>>> that distort1
>>>> is exactly what it says, a "modified hyperbolic tangent  
>>>> distortion".  i
>>>> laughed at a few of the definitions right off the bat, even  
>>>> thought they are
>>>> spot on, i had to translate the technical, exact definition into  
>>>> musical
>>>> language that i understand.
>>>>
>>>> i think mike has some good suggestions... practical, building block
>>>> toots, for those who can't afford/have-access-to the Csound  
>>>> book.  -using
>>>> Csound with sequencers/DAWs, that would be amazing... i'm  
>>>> currently trying
>>>> to figure how to pipe audio from max into Csound to do live
>>>> granular/chopping/mayhem/resonating-Lanksy-style electric bass  
>>>> performance
>>>> stuff and it's been a realy pain (i had little idea of where to  
>>>> start).
>>>>
>>>> this said, as a newb... i can't believe not only how active the  
>>>> community
>>>> is (my inbox is constantly full) but also how interested you cats  
>>>> are in
>>>> bring Csound to the masses while at the same time figuring out  
>>>> uber-geeky
>>>> ways of making this program better (perhaps why i have come to  
>>>> really like
>>>> this community... ah, the comfort in discovering like-minded  
>>>> individuals).
>>>>
>>>> best of luck in this... there is any way i could be of service my  
>>>> email
>>>> is available... heck, here it is... jadams1@...
>>>>
>>>> ciao
>>>> jAdams
>>>> ---------------------------------------
>>>> Original E-mail
>>>> From: Mike Moser-Booth <mmoserbooth@...>
>>>> Date: 07/05/2009 12:23 AM
>>>> To: csound@...
>>>> Subject: [Csnd] Re: How to make Csound more user-friendly
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I definitely agree that a sort of practical guide would go a long  
>>>> way to
>>>> help new users of Csound. I think it might be worth taking a look  
>>>> at what
>>>> other music programming environments have done in this area. Max/
>>>> MSP and Pd
>>>> immediately come to mind here. They both come with fairly extensive
>>>> tutorials that start with the most basic "Hello World" patches  
>>>> and work
>>>> their way up to more complicated techniques in a logical  
>>>> progression. Not
>>>> only are the techniques practical themselves, but they are made  
>>>> more so by
>>>> the fact information from preceding tutorials are applicable to  
>>>> later
>>>> tutorials, thus making concepts that may initially seem out of  
>>>> reach more
>>>> accessible. I know that seems elementary, but it seems to be  
>>>> lacking quite a
>>>> bit in Csound world. So many tutorials are scattered in different  
>>>> sources
>>>> and often assume a prior knowledge that one must search elsewhere  
>>>> to find.
>>>> Dr. B's TOOTS are the only thing that immediately comes to mind  
>>>> that even
>>>> comes close to fulfilling this paradigm, as they address the  
>>>> absolute
>>>> beginner and build up from there.
>>>>
>>>> I would be very willing to contribute to a project like this.  
>>>> Just a
>>>> couple of things I would add to your list, Joachim, off the top  
>>>> of my head:
>>>> -using Csound in conjunction with sequencers/DAWs
>>>> -a general "Using the Command Line" tutorial, as most people  
>>>> these days
>>>> simply don't use it and don't have a clue
>>>>
>>>> .mmb
>>>>
>>>> joachim heintz wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I'd like to discuss this more in detail. I'd appreciate if we  
>>>>> could
>>>>> define some subjects/ projects: what must be done to improve the
>>>>> user-friendlyness of Csound, and how can it be done? If there is  
>>>>> a consensus
>>>>> about some points, we could perhaps have some groups of people  
>>>>> who are
>>>>> willing to contribute to a certain issue.
>>>>>
>>>>> To begin with my own opinion: I'd like to have something like a
>>>>> practical guide (and contribute to it) to the different  
>>>>> approaches of
>>>>> Csound. There should be good examples with rather short  
>>>>> explanations to the
>>>>> different chapters of Csound, including
>>>>> - general configuration
>>>>> - working with live input
>>>>> - working with MIDI
>>>>> - loop constructions and event management
>>>>> - classical sound synthesis
>>>>> - granular synthesis
>>>>> - spectral processing
>>>>> - working with the API
>>>>> - using Csound and the utilities with Shell Scripts
>>>>> - and and and ...
>>>>>
>>>>> The goal of this practical guide would be:
>>>>> 1) to collect the most important informations about the  
>>>>> different ways
>>>>> of using Csound (for example, "what you should know about  
>>>>> commandline
>>>>> flags", "what you should know when you work with MIDI input")
>>>>> 2) to give hints about which opcodes can be used for the different
>>>>> approaches, uncluding some kind of selection (for example, the  
>>>>> pvs opcodes
>>>>> are actually replacing some older opcodes, or poscil can be used  
>>>>> instead of
>>>>> oscil also for non-power-of-two function tables)
>>>>> 3) to show a rich collection of good examples: good in  
>>>>> programming, with
>>>>> interesting musical results.
>>>>>
>>>>> What others think about this? And are there other items, perhaps  
>>>>> more
>>>>> necessary?
>>>>>
>>>>>    joachim
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Am 29.06.2009 um 00:51 schrieb Jacob Joaquin:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Csound is not user-friendly.  If developers and others in the  
>>>>>> community
>>>>>> spent
>>>>>> a full year working towards improving the user-experience, while
>>>>>> putting on
>>>>>> hold everything else Csound related, this would be time well  
>>>>>> spent.
>>>>>>  People
>>>>>> are easily turned off the number of hoops they have to jump  
>>>>>> through -
>>>>>> whether its issues with Python, or just rendering a file.  
>>>>>> Csound is
>>>>>> supposed to be an instrument of musical expression, not a  
>>>>>> technical
>>>>>> hurdle.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In my humble opinion.  :)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>>>>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@... with body  
>>>>> "unsubscribe
>>>>> csound"
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@... with body  
>>> "unsubscribe
>>> csound"
>>
>
>
>
> --
>
>
> Andrés
>
>
> Send bugs reports to this list.
> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@... with body  
> "unsubscribe csound"

Send bugs reports to this list.
To unsubscribe, send email sympa@... with body "unsubscribe csound"

[Dr. Richard Boulanger]

OK.

On a clean XP machine, I tried to be a new user and get the latest  
version of Csound running.

So... like a pro who doesn't know, but hears it's the bomb....

After an hour of trial and error, and hunt and hope, i finally got it  
running!  (with QuteCsound as the frontEnd)

No way would a beginner (or worse - a seasoned pro - put up with this)

Here's what happens

Go to cSounds.com to find *almost everything Csound*

First thing in the news is QuteCsound.
? what's that ?  Not sure I want something that's Cute?  I want to  
make some serious BEATS!!!!  MAN....
But OK... maybe they call Csound Cute Csound now....

Go to download

Hummmm... there are 2 versions  Double and Float???  Hummmm
- I use Logic Pro and Ableton Live and Audacity - and they have never  
asked me about double or float.

OK - I will download both

I will install one - doesn't work - not too cute
I install the other - oesn't work - not cute at ALL...

But wait... Back to cSounds.com... Oh.. there's a download tab/link,,,

Ah..  here I find Canonical Csound5 - ALL PLATFORMS
- cool, but what does canonical mean? build in echo?  No commercial  
software uses this term - and I have EVERY commercial program on my PC!
(i even paid for 1 of them)

Csound Page at Sourceforge - what?  what's sourceforge..

OK... I go....


Download the latest Csound5.10 for Windows  (a binary?  what's that?  
I never got the Reason 4.0 *binary*

Worse... again 4 versions  5.9, 5,10 f, d, huh?

- but which version float or double?
Install


Now here's where the fun begins (and beginners GIVE UP) (if they  
haven't already)

- Dialog appears... you don't have Python  ?  What?  I want Csound?
but it says.... you can keep installing...

great.

Keep installing

then... what do I click on to run Csound - why not try csound....

NOPE...   doesn't run without Python...

Then why the @!!@$#@%$#@!#  did you let me install it if it won't run  
without python?


Maybe it does...

Now to find Python?

And this is not easy... there are dozens of versions of Python...  I  
downloaded 6 or 7
Finally, one installed... (time is passing... no C sound .... no  
sound....

OK.

Python is installed - not even sure what version - just whatever one  
would install...

OK...

Then... install Csound again.

Hum??? Should I uninstall first to be on the safe side?
Did I install 2 versions or one over the other?

OK....

install Csound float

YEAH... no dialog box complaining about Python... (maybe I got it)

(((( Has it almost taken you 1 hour to read this email yet)))))  -  
because I do know how cool Csound is.... I do know it's worth it....  
but....
I am about ready to give up...

Why?

Welll ... in the csound folder is csound, winsound, csound5gui, blah  
blah blh.. - which door to I chose?

I chose Csound... makes sense,,,  I am installing Csound...

terminal appears.... some text wizzes by.... terminal disappears.!

OK... I try winSound....

- it doesn't make any sound?  it needs an orc or sco and there are  
none to be found - and how would a beginner know that he needed them?

And forget navigating to a folder - uuuuggggghhhh I can't find the  
desktop at alll....

OK... so I try  csound5gui... oh this is a little better ... looks  
like a transport here and an editor....

BUT where are the orchestras?

So.... NO SOUND..... well... in my mind Csound is the most amazing  
synth... but not in my speakers!

So....  I had heard that QuteSound was the way to work with Csound....

launch the version I installed

NOPE... seems I installed the double version of QuteCsound - and (and  
why has it got the name Csound in it ... if there is NO Csound in it...
It's a cute launcher, quteHost... QuteWrapper  ????

Just confused....

So, I install another version o QuteCsound - and

It launches - AMAZING...

but where is the sound????

Oh wait there is a menu - with examples....  - I go to one, I select  
it... I push on the transport...

NOPE - wrong Audio Driver  Wrong Hardware Setup....

I choose the right hardware setup

I click on the transport................


Sound!!!!!! SOUND!!!!!!  (CRAPPY CRAPPPYYYYYY  CRAPPPPPPPY sound -  
because this is a PC laptop my brother gave me - (I'm a mac guy you see)
AN Expert actually

And I am setting it up for him.....  he's taking this class at Berklee  
with the Dr. B.  guy....

Well.... How would I know, as a beginner... to get rid of all that  
chatter and breakup in the audio, I would need to set the -B and -b  
and check the boxes so that
it uses the large number????


I am happy now.... It took  ME more than 2 hours....  no lie... .....

It might take you less... and if you are lucky and you choose wisely...
(True...I am a bit sleepy.... I have been working 18-20 hours per day  
on The Audio Programming Book - which I am delivering to MIT Press in  
10 days (waiting for the foreword from Max Mathews - and tweeking  
things here and there........  and it's AMAZING!!!!! -
with a lot of Csound in there too!  - plus..... MusicV (a working  
version for all platforms! - a gift from Max Mathews)
plus  (cmusic - workin version for all platforms!  a gift from F.  
Richard Moore) .... and of course.....

And by the way..........  when I get it running..........  Where are  
the cool sounds!

I know where they are - the Csound Catalog, cSounds.com, Csound Book,  
Csound Journal, etc.... but.... will a beginner know where to go...  
and what to do....

after ALL this, I am afraid that a PRO - a colleage from Berklee let's  
say.... blows off his family time on Sunday night - and after 2  
hours....
Toot 1 - a sine wave........................

Sorry...

EMPTY TRASH

UNINSTALL

MOVE ON....

-dB

a "nightmare to install for beginners" (or PROFESSIONALS especially)  
version of Csound5 for Windows!!  uuuuuugggggggghhhhhhhh





On Jul 2, 2009, at 7:10 PM, DavidW wrote:

> Fran,
> I am pleased that you don't have problems doing an install that  
> suits you. And that you enjoy using it.
> Thus, the difficulties we are discussing need not concern you.
>
> Bbuild difficulties and usage difficulties are different - I think  
> it is best not to confuse them.
>
> D
> On 03/07/2009, at 8:55 AM, francibal wrote:
>
>>
>> Dear all,
>> I'm a beginner, and i have no knowledge in programming, but i work  
>> with a pc
>> windows (xp-vista),
>> and i never had problems. I have installed many different versions,  
>> and both
>> float and double, and many times i have disinstalled and again, but  
>> always
>> it were all ok. And i'm not so able with a pc.
>> Csound is not so easy at begin, but with a little bit (and with a  
>> great help
>> from You), one can understand how to work. A new frontend would be  
>> really a
>> pleasure. I use scite(!), and i'm studying emacs
>> (thanks Mr Rollandin!), and for me it is sufficient. Maybe more  
>> experienced
>> users, like most of You, have some differents problems, I suppose.
>>
>> Only for report, from a lovers of csound,
>>
>> ciao, and thanks for all,
>>
>> fran.
>> --
>> View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Score-Alignment-Utility-tp24227460p24315191.html
>> Sent from the Csound - General mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>
>>
>>
>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@... with body  
>> "unsubscribe csound"
>
> ________________________________________________
> David Worrall.
> - Experimental Polymedia:  worrall.avatar.com.au
> - Sonification: www.sonifiction.com.au
> - Education for Financial Independence: www.mindthemarkets.com.au
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Send bugs reports to this list.
> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@... with body  
> "unsubscribe csound"

Send bugs reports to this list.
To unsubscribe, send email sympa@... with body "unsubscribe csound"

[Julian Peterson]

Perhaps then, write a step by step tutorial to installing csound on  
Windows.  Problem solved.

It's not my intention to be flippant, Dr. B., it's just that your  
ongoing criticism doesn't really help, and I fear it only serves to  
alienate those developers that have spent so many hours working on the  
software pro bono.

Here's the reality of the situation: csound is a programming  
language.  It's a great programming language, one we're all devoted  
to, and one which we all rightfully believe is one of the most  
powerful ever imagined for music and sound production.  We all use it  
in our work, and all have deep and profound feelings of fondness for  
it.  So no one questions your intentions in pursuing this topic, and  
certainly there is validity to your point.  However:

csound will never be easy.

Right?  I mean, it can't be.  Even if I were to show up and install  
csound for a friend, thereby completely bypassing for them the  
scenario you detailed in your email, they still wouldn't be able to do  
jack shit with it without ponying up a lot of time to learn how to use  
it.  More time than is required for most other music software (and  
certainly all commercial software).  And this is how we want it, isn't  
it?  Not because we mean to discourage users, but because we want a  
flexible and robust tool.  And the more flexible a computer language/
program is, the steeper the learning curve.  If csound were easier, it  
would be, well, Reason, or some other prefab tool which, while  
certainly handy and fun, ain't no csound.

So while I understand and am sympathetic to what you are saying, it's  
a bit misguided to hope that csound can be as simple and easy as a  
commercial music program.  They have different goals, and cater to  
different audiences.

I've often imagined that there exists some curve, similar to a supply  
and demand curve, for the ease of use of a software program.  The  
analogy would be this:  easy of use would be like the demand, and  
power of the program would be the supply.  If there is a tremendous  
amount of flexibility and power in a program/language, then the ease  
of use must necessarily be low, and vice versa.  Well designed  
software maximizes the ease of use for a given amount of power.  
Csound is extremely powerful.  And considering this, it's also pretty  
easy to use.  We might find opportunity for small improvements in ease  
of use, but there is an upward limit as long as we expect csound to  
remain as flexible and powerful as it is currently.

Your lambasting of the developers for not creating a csound capable of  
one-click-install for any first-year student with a crummy laptop  
might spring from the very best of intentions, but the effect it's  
having is one of lambasting the developers (and one in particular)  
whose enthusiasm for continuing to improve csound cannot be helped by  
your crude parable.  And I'd rather much like to keep them around and  
keep them focused on where their skills are best served: improving the  
mechanics of csound.

The best way to help the situation is to contribute code, but you  
might be in the same position I am in of not really having the chops  
necessary to assist in that capacity.  The next best thing would be to  
contribute documentation, such as a HowTo for installing csound on  
Windows.  I would imagine that for yourself the best thing you can do  
would be to continue that great work you currently perform: being a  
fierce advocate for the usage and improvement of csound.  Everyone  
here recognizes and appreciates your work in that respect.

But if I may offer a modicum of advice: find a manner of expressing  
this advocacy that doesn't come across as quite so insulting and  
demeaning to the developers of that program we both love so dearly.  
That will best serve your goals and the csound community at large.

Yours,

Julian Peterson



On Jul 5, 2009, at 9:07 PM, Dr. Richard Boulanger wrote:

> OK.
>
> On a clean XP machine, I tried to be a new user and get the latest  
> version of Csound running.
>
> So... like a pro who doesn't know, but hears it's the bomb....
>
> After an hour of trial and error, and hunt and hope, i finally got  
> it running!  (with QuteCsound as the frontEnd)
>
> No way would a beginner (or worse - a seasoned pro - put up with this)
>
> Here's what happens
>
> Go to cSounds.com to find *almost everything Csound*
>
> First thing in the news is QuteCsound.
> ? what's that ?  Not sure I want something that's Cute?  I want to  
> make some serious BEATS!!!!  MAN....
> But OK... maybe they call Csound Cute Csound now....
>
> Go to download
>
> Hummmm... there are 2 versions  Double and Float???  Hummmm
> - I use Logic Pro and Ableton Live and Audacity - and they have  
> never asked me about double or float.
>
> OK - I will download both
>
> I will install one - doesn't work - not too cute
> I install the other - oesn't work - not cute at ALL...
>
> But wait... Back to cSounds.com... Oh.. there's a download tab/link,,,
>
> Ah..  here I find Canonical Csound5 - ALL PLATFORMS
> - cool, but what does canonical mean? build in echo?  No commercial  
> software uses this term - and I have EVERY commercial program on my  
> PC!
> (i even paid for 1 of them)
>
> Csound Page at Sourceforge - what?  what's sourceforge..
>
> OK... I go....
>
>
> Download the latest Csound5.10 for Windows  (a binary?  what's  
> that?  I never got the Reason 4.0 *binary*
>
> Worse... again 4 versions  5.9, 5,10 f, d, huh?
>
> - but which version float or double?
> Install
>
>
> Now here's where the fun begins (and beginners GIVE UP) (if they  
> haven't already)
>
> - Dialog appears... you don't have Python  ?  What?  I want Csound?
> but it says.... you can keep installing...
>
> great.
>
> Keep installing
>
> then... what do I click on to run Csound - why not try csound....
>
> NOPE...   doesn't run without Python...
>
> Then why the @!!@$#@%$#@!#  did you let me install it if it won't  
> run without python?
>
>
> Maybe it does...
>
> Now to find Python?
>
> And this is not easy... there are dozens of versions of Python...  I  
> downloaded 6 or 7
> Finally, one installed... (time is passing... no C sound .... no  
> sound....
>
> OK.
>
> Python is installed - not even sure what version - just whatever one  
> would install...
>
> OK...
>
> Then... install Csound again.
>
> Hum??? Should I uninstall first to be on the safe side?
> Did I install 2 versions or one over the other?
>
> OK....
>
> install Csound float
>
> YEAH... no dialog box complaining about Python... (maybe I got it)
>
> (((( Has it almost taken you 1 hour to read this email yet)))))  -  
> because I do know how cool Csound is.... I do know it's worth it....  
> but....
> I am about ready to give up...
>
> Why?
>
> Welll ... in the csound folder is csound, winsound, csound5gui, blah  
> blah blh.. - which door to I chose?
>
> I chose Csound... makes sense,,,  I am installing Csound...
>
> terminal appears.... some text wizzes by.... terminal disappears.!
>
> OK... I try winSound....
>
> - it doesn't make any sound?  it needs an orc or sco and there are  
> none to be found - and how would a beginner know that he needed them?
>
> And forget navigating to a folder - uuuuggggghhhh I can't find the  
> desktop at alll....
>
> OK... so I try  csound5gui... oh this is a little better ... looks  
> like a transport here and an editor....
>
> BUT where are the orchestras?
>
> So.... NO SOUND..... well... in my mind Csound is the most amazing  
> synth... but not in my speakers!
>
> So....  I had heard that QuteSound was the way to work with Csound....
>
> launch the version I installed
>
> NOPE... seems I installed the double version of QuteCsound - and  
> (and why has it got the name Csound in it ... if there is NO Csound  
> in it...
> It's a cute launcher, quteHost... QuteWrapper  ????
>
> Just confused....
>
> So, I install another version o QuteCsound - and
>
> It launches - AMAZING...
>
> but where is the sound????
>
> Oh wait there is a menu - with examples....  - I go to one, I select  
> it... I push on the transport...
>
> NOPE - wrong Audio Driver  Wrong Hardware Setup....
>
> I choose the right hardware setup
>
> I click on the transport................
>
>
> Sound!!!!!! SOUND!!!!!!  (CRAPPY CRAPPPYYYYYY  CRAPPPPPPPY sound -  
> because this is a PC laptop my brother gave me - (I'm a mac guy you  
> see)
> AN Expert actually
>
> And I am setting it up for him.....  he's taking this class at  
> Berklee with the Dr. B.  guy....
>
> Well.... How would I know, as a beginner... to get rid of all that  
> chatter and breakup in the audio, I would need to set the -B and -b  
> and check the boxes so that
> it uses the large number????
>
>
> I am happy now.... It took  ME more than 2 hours....  no lie... .....
>
> It might take you less... and if you are lucky and you choose  
> wisely...
> (True...I am a bit sleepy.... I have been working 18-20 hours per  
> day on The Audio Programming Book - which I am delivering to MIT  
> Press in 10 days (waiting for the foreword from Max Mathews - and  
> tweeking things here and there........  and it's AMAZING!!!!! -
> with a lot of Csound in there too!  - plus..... MusicV (a working  
> version for all platforms! - a gift from Max Mathews)
> plus  (cmusic - workin version for all platforms!  a gift from F.  
> Richard Moore) .... and of course.....
>
> And by the way..........  when I get it running..........  Where are  
> the cool sounds!
>
> I know where they are - the Csound Catalog, cSounds.com, Csound  
> Book, Csound Journal, etc.... but.... will a beginner know where to  
> go... and what to do....
>
> after ALL this, I am afraid that a PRO - a colleage from Berklee  
> let's say.... blows off his family time on Sunday night - and after  
> 2 hours....
> Toot 1 - a sine wave........................
>
> Sorry...
>
> EMPTY TRASH
>
> UNINSTALL
>
> MOVE ON....
>
> -dB
>
> a "nightmare to install for beginners" (or PROFESSIONALS especially)  
> version of Csound5 for Windows!!  uuuuuugggggggghhhhhhhh
>
>
>
>
>
> On Jul 2, 2009, at 7:10 PM, DavidW wrote:
>
>> Fran,
>> I am pleased that you don't have problems doing an install that  
>> suits you. And that you enjoy using it.
>> Thus, the difficulties we are discussing need not concern you.
>>
>> Bbuild difficulties and usage difficulties are different - I think  
>> it is best not to confuse them.
>>
>> D
>> On 03/07/2009, at 8:55 AM, francibal wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Dear all,
>>> I'm a beginner, and i have no knowledge in programming, but i work  
>>> with a pc
>>> windows (xp-vista),
>>> and i never had problems. I have installed many different  
>>> versions, and both
>>> float and double, and many times i have disinstalled and again,  
>>> but always
>>> it were all ok. And i'm not so able with a pc.
>>> Csound is not so easy at begin, but with a little bit (and with a  
>>> great help
>>> from You), one can understand how to work. A new frontend would be  
>>> really a
>>> pleasure. I use scite(!), and i'm studying emacs
>>> (thanks Mr Rollandin!), and for me it is sufficient. Maybe more  
>>> experienced
>>> users, like most of You, have some differents problems, I suppose.
>>>
>>> Only for report, from a lovers of csound,
>>>
>>> ciao, and thanks for all,
>>>
>>> fran.
>>> --
>>> View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Score-Alignment-Utility-tp24227460p24315191.html
>>> Sent from the Csound - General mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@... with body  
>>> "unsubscribe csound"
>>
>> ________________________________________________
>> David Worrall.
>> - Experimental Polymedia:  worrall.avatar.com.au
>> - Sonification: www.sonifiction.com.au
>> - Education for Financial Independence: www.mindthemarkets.com.au
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@... with body  
>> "unsubscribe csound"
>
>
>
> Send bugs reports to this list.
> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@... with body  
> "unsubscribe csound"

Send bugs reports to this list.
To unsubscribe, send email sympa@... with body "unsubscribe csound"

[csounder]

Not being critical at all Julian....
I am close with all the developers...  and they know how much I  
respect and love their work.
And also....... For many years now, I have been giving a great deal of  
support to many many csounders....


I was trying to be a little funny.  (but also somewhat serious...) in  
that... it did take that long... and there was that much trial and  
error)
and... most *professional* music software these days - and a ton of  
free stuff too - does not involve so much trial and error.

Audacity... just installed on the PC.  go to audacity.  choose the  
latest windows version... install... Boom...
- want to add some extra features to Audacity... a few notes here a  
link there... boom.... working.... minutes not hours... and what I can  
do
with the app, the minute I open it... a lot more than a sine wave.  
(and by the way toot1 is my sinewave right?  I am being critical of my  
work too here.

Note please that the first place I went was my own cSounds.com - and  
there one gets quite confused - by all the choices.

But NO.... a long step by step is NOT what we need.

We just need an installer works, and that has the right stuff there  
(some good demos, some good toots, some good examples of music  
(QuteCsound has all this now!)
- for the PC at for Sure - and for All platforms really... (and maybe  
we need to think about a developer's build that has more openness and  
cutting edge features
- also for all platforms - maybe we all build that from CVS even.)

Most of what I suggest is there for the Mac (thanks to Victor's work  
on that one) - yet it's true that students of mine still get snagged  
there too - but less often.
(actually, they get snagged for almost the same reason as the PC -  
with Cecilia installs, because there are so many versions.)


I wanted to share the experience that my students and colleagues bring  
to me - all the time...
and then they usually walk away...

There are a lot of ways of using Csound.  It continues to get better  
and better - and... more musical models make it much easier to work  
with.

Cecilia is an amazing example of this.......  anyone and everyone can  
get some serious Csound from that - right.

You are preaching to the choir here - about how dedicated some of us  
might be to Csound.

What I am sad about... (honestly sad) is.... the fact that we  
absolutely continue to make the language better and better - and the  
manuals, and the tutorials...
and we continue to come up with new and incredibly powerful ways to  
work with the language and make it work.... but... we are in so deep
and so happy with our quite advanced personal csoundLabs....  I have  
always wanted everyone to get Csound... that's what was behind The  
Csound Book.
(and that will be behind The Csound5 Book too! - so there will be  
chapters on MIDI and working with commercial DAWs, etc..  as well as  
the API, Python
OSC stuff.

Sadly, I will offer a Csound workshop to another group of 50 on July  
17.  I will show them ALL the cool things that commercial musician,  
film composers, game developers, iPhone developers, and serious  
composers, are doing with Csound... and I will take them through the  
process of installing it and getting it going - now on both the mac  
and the pc.... but... once again... 2 or three will get it to work on  
their PCs the next day - and there is no next day... I am not doing  
Csound the next day... so... they are
then on their own... and probably... looking elsewhere - because they  
got elsewhere to work!


-dB

PS - logic is no simple program.  Live is easy and intuitive, but not  
simple.  Max is not easy, but it is logical, seductive, inviting, and  
addicting and ALL the things that Csound should be!  (and is becoming  
for sure)

PPS... for less than $300, anyone can get a pretty incredible laptop -  
and if they are running windows on it, I hope that they ALL will run/
learn/use Csound, Cecilia, Audacity, etc. - and that they will ALL be  
easy to install - in inspiring right out of the box!

PPPPPPPS....  absolutely was not trying to insult anyone... and if I  
did... please please please accept my sincere apology......
  .
Dr. Richard Boulanger  -  rboulanger@...



On Jul 6, 2009, at 12:41 AM, Julian Peterson wrote:

> Perhaps then, write a step by step tutorial to installing csound on  
> Windows.  Problem solved.
>
> It's not my intention to be flippant, Dr. B., it's just that your  
> ongoing criticism doesn't really help, and I fear it only serves to  
> alienate those developers that have spent so many hours working on  
> the software pro bono.
>
> Here's the reality of the situation: csound is a programming  
> language.  It's a great programming language, one we're all devoted  
> to, and one which we all rightfully believe is one of the most  
> powerful ever imagined for music and sound production.  We all use  
> it in our work, and all have deep and profound feelings of fondness  
> for it.  So no one questions your intentions in pursuing this topic,  
> and certainly there is validity to your point.  However:
>
> csound will never be easy.
>
> Right?  I mean, it can't be.  Even if I were to show up and install  
> csound for a friend, thereby completely bypassing for them the  
> scenario you detailed in your email, they still wouldn't be able to  
> do jack shit with it without ponying up a lot of time to learn how  
> to use it.  More time than is required for most other music software  
> (and certainly all commercial software).  And this is how we want  
> it, isn't it?  Not because we mean to discourage users, but because  
> we want a flexible and robust tool.  And the more flexible a  
> computer language/program is, the steeper the learning curve.  If  
> csound were easier, it would be, well, Reason, or some other prefab  
> tool which, while certainly handy and fun, ain't no csound.
>
> So while I understand and am sympathetic to what you are saying,  
> it's a bit misguided to hope that csound can be as simple and easy  
> as a commercial music program.  They have different goals, and cater  
> to different audiences.
>
> I've often imagined that there exists some curve, similar to a  
> supply and demand curve, for the ease of use of a software program.  
> The analogy would be this:  easy of use would be like the demand,  
> and power of the program would be the supply.  If there is a  
> tremendous amount of flexibility and power in a program/language,  
> then the ease of use must necessarily be low, and vice versa.  Well  
> designed software maximizes the ease of use for a given amount of  
> power.  Csound is extremely powerful.  And considering this, it's  
> also pretty easy to use.  We might find opportunity for small  
> improvements in ease of use, but there is an upward limit as long as  
> we expect csound to remain as flexible and powerful as it is  
> currently.
>
> Your lambasting of the developers for not creating a csound capable  
> of one-click-install for any first-year student with a crummy laptop  
> might spring from the very best of intentions, but the effect it's  
> having is one of lambasting the developers (and one in particular)  
> whose enthusiasm for continuing to improve csound cannot be helped  
> by your crude parable.  And I'd rather much like to keep them around  
> and keep them focused on where their skills are best served:  
> improving the mechanics of csound.
>
> The best way to help the situation is to contribute code, but you  
> might be in the same position I am in of not really having the chops  
> necessary to assist in that capacity.  The next best thing would be  
> to contribute documentation, such as a HowTo for installing csound  
> on Windows.  I would imagine that for yourself the best thing you  
> can do would be to continue that great work you currently perform:  
> being a fierce advocate for the usage and improvement of csound.  
> Everyone here recognizes and appreciates your work in that respect.
>
> But if I may offer a modicum of advice: find a manner of expressing  
> this advocacy that doesn't come across as quite so insulting and  
> demeaning to the developers of that program we both love so dearly.  
> That will best serve your goals and the csound community at large.
>
> Yours,
>
> Julian Peterson
>
>
>
> On Jul 5, 2009, at 9:07 PM, Dr. Richard Boulanger wrote:
>
>> OK.
>>
>> On a clean XP machine, I tried to be a new user and get the latest  
>> version of Csound running.
>>
>> So... like a pro who doesn't know, but hears it's the bomb....
>>
>> After an hour of trial and error, and hunt and hope, i finally got  
>> it running!  (with QuteCsound as the frontEnd)
>>
>> No way would a beginner (or worse - a seasoned pro - put up with  
>> this)
>>
>> Here's what happens
>>
>> Go to cSounds.com to find *almost everything Csound*
>>
>> First thing in the news is QuteCsound.
>> ? what's that ?  Not sure I want something that's Cute?  I want to  
>> make some serious BEATS!!!!  MAN....
>> But OK... maybe they call Csound Cute Csound now....
>>
>> Go to download
>>
>> Hummmm... there are 2 versions  Double and Float???  Hummmm
>> - I use Logic Pro and Ableton Live and Audacity - and they have  
>> never asked me about double or float.
>>
>> OK - I will download both
>>
>> I will install one - doesn't work - not too cute
>> I install the other - oesn't work - not cute at ALL...
>>
>> But wait... Back to cSounds.com... Oh.. there's a download tab/
>> link,,,
>>
>> Ah..  here I find Canonical Csound5 - ALL PLATFORMS
>> - cool, but what does canonical mean? build in echo?  No commercial  
>> software uses this term - and I have EVERY commercial program on my  
>> PC!
>> (i even paid for 1 of them)
>>
>> Csound Page at Sourceforge - what?  what's sourceforge..
>>
>> OK... I go....
>>
>>
>> Download the latest Csound5.10 for Windows  (a binary?  what's  
>> that?  I never got the Reason 4.0 *binary*
>>
>> Worse... again 4 versions  5.9, 5,10 f, d, huh?
>>
>> - but which version float or double?
>> Install
>>
>>
>> Now here's where the fun begins (and beginners GIVE UP) (if they  
>> haven't already)
>>
>> - Dialog appears... you don't have Python  ?  What?  I want Csound?
>> but it says.... you can keep installing...
>>
>> great.
>>
>> Keep installing
>>
>> then... what do I click on to run Csound - why not try csound....
>>
>> NOPE...   doesn't run without Python...
>>
>> Then why the @!!@$#@%$#@!#  did you let me install it if it won't  
>> run without python?
>>
>>
>> Maybe it does...
>>
>> Now to find Python?
>>
>> And this is not easy... there are dozens of versions of Python...  
>> I downloaded 6 or 7
>> Finally, one installed... (time is passing... no C sound .... no  
>> sound....
>>
>> OK.
>>
>> Python is installed - not even sure what version - just whatever  
>> one would install...
>>
>> OK...
>>
>> Then... install Csound again.
>>
>> Hum??? Should I uninstall first to be on the safe side?
>> Did I install 2 versions or one over the other?
>>
>> OK....
>>
>> install Csound float
>>
>> YEAH... no dialog box complaining about Python... (maybe I got it)
>>
>> (((( Has it almost taken you 1 hour to read this email yet)))))  -  
>> because I do know how cool Csound is.... I do know it's worth  
>> it.... but....
>> I am about ready to give up...
>>
>> Why?
>>
>> Welll ... in the csound folder is csound, winsound, csound5gui,  
>> blah blah blh.. - which door to I chose?
>>
>> I chose Csound... makes sense,,,  I am installing Csound...
>>
>> terminal appears.... some text wizzes by.... terminal disappears.!
>>
>> OK... I try winSound....
>>
>> - it doesn't make any sound?  it needs an orc or sco and there are  
>> none to be found - and how would a beginner know that he needed them?
>>
>> And forget navigating to a folder - uuuuggggghhhh I can't find the  
>> desktop at alll....
>>
>> OK... so I try  csound5gui... oh this is a little better ... looks  
>> like a transport here and an editor....
>>
>> BUT where are the orchestras?
>>
>> So.... NO SOUND..... well... in my mind Csound is the most amazing  
>> synth... but not in my speakers!
>>
>> So....  I had heard that QuteSound was the way to work with  
>> Csound....
>>
>> launch the version I installed
>>
>> NOPE... seems I installed the double version of QuteCsound - and  
>> (and why has it got the name Csound in it ... if there is NO Csound  
>> in it...
>> It's a cute launcher, quteHost... QuteWrapper  ????
>>
>> Just confused....
>>
>> So, I install another version o QuteCsound - and
>>
>> It launches - AMAZING...
>>
>> but where is the sound????
>>
>> Oh wait there is a menu - with examples....  - I go to one, I  
>> select it... I push on the transport...
>>
>> NOPE - wrong Audio Driver  Wrong Hardware Setup....
>>
>> I choose the right hardware setup
>>
>> I click on the transport................
>>
>>
>> Sound!!!!!! SOUND!!!!!!  (CRAPPY CRAPPPYYYYYY  CRAPPPPPPPY sound -  
>> because this is a PC laptop my brother gave me - (I'm a mac guy you  
>> see)
>> AN Expert actually
>>
>> And I am setting it up for him.....  he's taking this class at  
>> Berklee with the Dr. B.  guy....
>>
>> Well.... How would I know, as a beginner... to get rid of all that  
>> chatter and breakup in the audio, I would need to set the -B and -b  
>> and check the boxes so that
>> it uses the large number????
>>
>>
>> I am happy now.... It took  ME more than 2 hours....  no lie... .....
>>
>> It might take you less... and if you are lucky and you choose  
>> wisely...
>> (True...I am a bit sleepy.... I have been working 18-20 hours per  
>> day on The Audio Programming Book - which I am delivering to MIT  
>> Press in 10 days (waiting for the foreword from Max Mathews - and  
>> tweeking things here and there........  and it's AMAZING!!!!! -
>> with a lot of Csound in there too!  - plus..... MusicV (a working  
>> version for all platforms! - a gift from Max Mathews)
>> plus  (cmusic - workin version for all platforms!  a gift from F.  
>> Richard Moore) .... and of course.....
>>
>> And by the way..........  when I get it running..........  Where  
>> are the cool sounds!
>>
>> I know where they are - the Csound Catalog, cSounds.com, Csound  
>> Book, Csound Journal, etc.... but.... will a beginner know where to  
>> go... and what to do....
>>
>> after ALL this, I am afraid that a PRO - a colleage from Berklee  
>> let's say.... blows off his family time on Sunday night - and after  
>> 2 hours....
>> Toot 1 - a sine wave........................
>>
>> Sorry...
>>
>> EMPTY TRASH
>>
>> UNINSTALL
>>
>> MOVE ON....
>>
>> -dB
>>
>> a "nightmare to install for beginners" (or PROFESSIONALS  
>> especially) version of Csound5 for Windows!!  uuuuuugggggggghhhhhhhh
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Jul 2, 2009, at 7:10 PM, DavidW wrote:
>>
>>> Fran,
>>> I am pleased that you don't have problems doing an install that  
>>> suits you. And that you enjoy using it.
>>> Thus, the difficulties we are discussing need not concern you.
>>>
>>> Bbuild difficulties and usage difficulties are different - I think  
>>> it is best not to confuse them.
>>>
>>> D
>>> On 03/07/2009, at 8:55 AM, francibal wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Dear all,
>>>> I'm a beginner, and i have no knowledge in programming, but i  
>>>> work with a pc
>>>> windows (xp-vista),
>>>> and i never had problems. I have installed many different  
>>>> versions, and both
>>>> float and double, and many times i have disinstalled and again,  
>>>> but always
>>>> it were all ok. And i'm not so able with a pc.
>>>> Csound is not so easy at begin, but with a little bit (and with a  
>>>> great help
>>>> from You), one can understand how to work. A new frontend would  
>>>> be really a
>>>> pleasure. I use scite(!), and i'm studying emacs
>>>> (thanks Mr Rollandin!), and for me it is sufficient. Maybe more  
>>>> experienced
>>>> users, like most of You, have some differents problems, I suppose.
>>>>
>>>> Only for report, from a lovers of csound,
>>>>
>>>> ciao, and thanks for all,
>>>>
>>>> fran.
>>>> --
>>>> View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Score-Alignment-Utility-tp24227460p24315191.html
>>>> Sent from the Csound - General mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>>>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@... with body  
>>>> "unsubscribe csound"
>>>
>>> ________________________________________________
>>> David Worrall.
>>> - Experimental Polymedia:  worrall.avatar.com.au
>>> - Sonification: www.sonifiction.com.au
>>> - Education for Financial Independence: www.mindthemarkets.com.au
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@... with body  
>>> "unsubscribe csound"
>>
>>
>>
>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@... with body  
>> "unsubscribe csound"
>
>
>
> Send bugs reports to this list.
> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@... with body  
> "unsubscribe csound"

Send bugs reports to this list.
To unsubscribe, send email sympa@... with body "unsubscribe csound"

[Julian Peterson]

Thanks, Dr. B.  I understand your position much better from this last  
email.  I'm sorry if I mistook your tone from before.

J



On Jul 5, 2009, at 10:13 PM, Dr. Richard Boulanger wrote:

> Not being critical at all Julian....
> I am close with all the developers...  and they know how much I  
> respect and love their work.
> And also....... For many years now, I have been giving a great deal  
> of support to many many csounders....
>
>
> I was trying to be a little funny.  (but also somewhat serious...)  
> in that... it did take that long... and there was that much trial  
> and error)
> and... most *professional* music software these days - and a ton of  
> free stuff too - does not involve so much trial and error.
>
> Audacity... just installed on the PC.  go to audacity.  choose the  
> latest windows version... install... Boom...
> - want to add some extra features to Audacity... a few notes here a  
> link there... boom.... working.... minutes not hours... and what I  
> can do
> with the app, the minute I open it... a lot more than a sine wave.  
> (and by the way toot1 is my sinewave right?  I am being critical of  
> my work too here.
>
> Note please that the first place I went was my own cSounds.com - and  
> there one gets quite confused - by all the choices.
>
> But NO.... a long step by step is NOT what we need.
>
> We just need an installer works, and that has the right stuff there  
> (some good demos, some good toots, some good examples of music  
> (QuteCsound has all this now!)
> - for the PC at for Sure - and for All platforms really... (and  
> maybe we need to think about a developer's build that has more  
> openness and cutting edge features
> - also for all platforms - maybe we all build that from CVS even.)
>
> Most of what I suggest is there for the Mac (thanks to Victor's work  
> on that one) - yet it's true that students of mine still get snagged  
> there too - but less often.
> (actually, they get snagged for almost the same reason as the PC -  
> with Cecilia installs, because there are so many versions.)
>
>
> I wanted to share the experience that my students and colleagues  
> bring to me - all the time...
> and then they usually walk away...
>
> There are a lot of ways of using Csound.  It continues to get better  
> and better - and... more musical models make it much easier to work  
> with.
>
> Cecilia is an amazing example of this.......  anyone and everyone  
> can get some serious Csound from that - right.
>
> You are preaching to the choir here - about how dedicated some of us  
> might be to Csound.
>
> What I am sad about... (honestly sad) is.... the fact that we  
> absolutely continue to make the language better and better - and the  
> manuals, and the tutorials...
> and we continue to come up with new and incredibly powerful ways to  
> work with the language and make it work.... but... we are in so deep
> and so happy with our quite advanced personal csoundLabs....  I have  
> always wanted everyone to get Csound... that's what was behind The  
> Csound Book.
> (and that will be behind The Csound5 Book too! - so there will be  
> chapters on MIDI and working with commercial DAWs, etc..  as well as  
> the API, Python
> OSC stuff.
>
> Sadly, I will offer a Csound workshop to another group of 50 on July  
> 17.  I will show them ALL the cool things that commercial musician,  
> film composers, game developers, iPhone developers, and serious  
> composers, are doing with Csound... and I will take them through the  
> process of installing it and getting it going - now on both the mac  
> and the pc.... but... once again... 2 or three will get it to work  
> on their PCs the next day - and there is no next day... I am not  
> doing Csound the next day... so... they are
> then on their own... and probably... looking elsewhere - because  
> they got elsewhere to work!
>
>
> -dB
>
> PS - logic is no simple program.  Live is easy and intuitive, but  
> not simple.  Max is not easy, but it is logical, seductive,  
> inviting, and addicting and ALL the things that Csound should be!  
> (and is becoming for sure)
>
> PPS... for less than $300, anyone can get a pretty incredible laptop  
> - and if they are running windows on it, I hope that they ALL will  
> run/learn/use Csound, Cecilia, Audacity, etc. - and that they will  
> ALL be easy to install - in inspiring right out of the box!
>
> PPPPPPPS....  absolutely was not trying to insult anyone... and if I  
> did... please please please accept my sincere apology......
> .
> Dr. Richard Boulanger  -  rboulanger@...
>
>
>
> On Jul 6, 2009, at 12:41 AM, Julian Peterson wrote:
>
>> Perhaps then, write a step by step tutorial to installing csound on  
>> Windows.  Problem solved.
>>
>> It's not my intention to be flippant, Dr. B., it's just that your  
>> ongoing criticism doesn't really help, and I fear it only serves to  
>> alienate those developers that have spent so many hours working on  
>> the software pro bono.
>>
>> Here's the reality of the situation: csound is a programming  
>> language.  It's a great programming language, one we're all devoted  
>> to, and one which we all rightfully believe is one of the most  
>> powerful ever imagined for music and sound production.  We all use  
>> it in our work, and all have deep and profound feelings of fondness  
>> for it.  So no one questions your intentions in pursuing this  
>> topic, and certainly there is validity to your point.  However:
>>
>> csound will never be easy.
>>
>> Right?  I mean, it can't be.  Even if I were to show up and install  
>> csound for a friend, thereby completely bypassing for them the  
>> scenario you detailed in your email, they still wouldn't be able to  
>> do jack shit with it without ponying up a lot of time to learn how  
>> to use it.  More time than is required for most other music  
>> software (and certainly all commercial software).  And this is how  
>> we want it, isn't it?  Not because we mean to discourage users, but  
>> because we want a flexible and robust tool.  And the more flexible  
>> a computer language/program is, the steeper the learning curve.  If  
>> csound were easier, it would be, well, Reason, or some other prefab  
>> tool which, while certainly handy and fun, ain't no csound.
>>
>> So while I understand and am sympathetic to what you are saying,  
>> it's a bit misguided to hope that csound can be as simple and easy  
>> as a commercial music program.  They have different goals, and  
>> cater to different audiences.
>>
>> I've often imagined that there exists some curve, similar to a  
>> supply and demand curve, for the ease of use of a software  
>> program.  The analogy would be this:  easy of use would be like the  
>> demand, and power of the program would be the supply.  If there is  
>> a tremendous amount of flexibility and power in a program/language,  
>> then the ease of use must necessarily be low, and vice versa.  Well  
>> designed software maximizes the ease of use for a given amount of  
>> power.  Csound is extremely powerful.  And considering this, it's  
>> also pretty easy to use.  We might find opportunity for small  
>> improvements in ease of use, but there is an upward limit as long  
>> as we expect csound to remain as flexible and powerful as it is  
>> currently.
>>
>> Your lambasting of the developers for not creating a csound capable  
>> of one-click-install for any first-year student with a crummy  
>> laptop might spring from the very best of intentions, but the  
>> effect it's having is one of lambasting the developers (and one in  
>> particular) whose enthusiasm for continuing to improve csound  
>> cannot be helped by your crude parable.  And I'd rather much like  
>> to keep them around and keep them focused on where their skills are  
>> best served: improving the mechanics of csound.
>>
>> The best way to help the situation is to contribute code, but you  
>> might be in the same position I am in of not really having the  
>> chops necessary to assist in that capacity.  The next best thing  
>> would be to contribute documentation, such as a HowTo for  
>> installing csound on Windows.  I would imagine that for yourself  
>> the best thing you can do would be to continue that great work you  
>> currently perform: being a fierce advocate for the usage and  
>> improvement of csound.  Everyone here recognizes and appreciates  
>> your work in that respect.
>>
>> But if I may offer a modicum of advice: find a manner of expressing  
>> this advocacy that doesn't come across as quite so insulting and  
>> demeaning to the developers of that program we both love so  
>> dearly.  That will best serve your goals and the csound community  
>> at large.
>>
>> Yours,
>>
>> Julian Peterson
>>
>>
>>
>> On Jul 5, 2009, at 9:07 PM, Dr. Richard Boulanger wrote:
>>
>>> OK.
>>>
>>> On a clean XP machine, I tried to be a new user and get the latest  
>>> version of Csound running.
>>>
>>> So... like a pro who doesn't know, but hears it's the bomb....
>>>
>>> After an hour of trial and error, and hunt and hope, i finally got  
>>> it running!  (with QuteCsound as the frontEnd)
>>>
>>> No way would a beginner (or worse - a seasoned pro - put up with  
>>> this)
>>>
>>> Here's what happens
>>>
>>> Go to cSounds.com to find *almost everything Csound*
>>>
>>> First thing in the news is QuteCsound.
>>> ? what's that ?  Not sure I want something that's Cute?  I want to  
>>> make some serious BEATS!!!!  MAN....
>>> But OK... maybe they call Csound Cute Csound now....
>>>
>>> Go to download
>>>
>>> Hummmm... there are 2 versions  Double and Float???  Hummmm
>>> - I use Logic Pro and Ableton Live and Audacity - and they have  
>>> never asked me about double or float.
>>>
>>> OK - I will download both
>>>
>>> I will install one - doesn't work - not too cute
>>> I install the other - oesn't work - not cute at ALL...
>>>
>>> But wait... Back to cSounds.com... Oh.. there's a download tab/
>>> link,,,
>>>
>>> Ah..  here I find Canonical Csound5 - ALL PLATFORMS
>>> - cool, but what does canonical mean? build in echo?  No  
>>> commercial software uses this term - and I have EVERY commercial  
>>> program on my PC!
>>> (i even paid for 1 of them)
>>>
>>> Csound Page at Sourceforge - what?  what's sourceforge..
>>>
>>> OK... I go....
>>>
>>>
>>> Download the latest Csound5.10 for Windows  (a binary?  what's  
>>> that?  I never got the Reason 4.0 *binary*
>>>
>>> Worse... again 4 versions  5.9, 5,10 f, d, huh?
>>>
>>> - but which version float or double?
>>> Install
>>>
>>>
>>> Now here's where the fun begins (and beginners GIVE UP) (if they  
>>> haven't already)
>>>
>>> - Dialog appears... you don't have Python  ?  What?  I want Csound?
>>> but it says.... you can keep installing...
>>>
>>> great.
>>>
>>> Keep installing
>>>
>>> then... what do I click on to run Csound - why not try csound....
>>>
>>> NOPE...   doesn't run without Python...
>>>
>>> Then why the @!!@$#@%$#@!#  did you let me install it if it won't  
>>> run without python?
>>>
>>>
>>> Maybe it does...
>>>
>>> Now to find Python?
>>>
>>> And this is not easy... there are dozens of versions of Python...  
>>> I downloaded 6 or 7
>>> Finally, one installed... (time is passing... no C sound .... no  
>>> sound....
>>>
>>> OK.
>>>
>>> Python is installed - not even sure what version - just whatever  
>>> one would install...
>>>
>>> OK...
>>>
>>> Then... install Csound again.
>>>
>>> Hum??? Should I uninstall first to be on the safe side?
>>> Did I install 2 versions or one over the other?
>>>
>>> OK....
>>>
>>> install Csound float
>>>
>>> YEAH... no dialog box complaining about Python... (maybe I got it)
>>>
>>> (((( Has it almost taken you 1 hour to read this email yet)))))  -  
>>> because I do know how cool Csound is.... I do know it's worth  
>>> it.... but....
>>> I am about ready to give up...
>>>
>>> Why?
>>>
>>> Welll ... in the csound folder is csound, winsound, csound5gui,  
>>> blah blah blh.. - which door to I chose?
>>>
>>> I chose Csound... makes sense,,,  I am installing Csound...
>>>
>>> terminal appears.... some text wizzes by.... terminal disappears.!
>>>
>>> OK... I try winSound....
>>>
>>> - it doesn't make any sound?  it needs an orc or sco and there are  
>>> none to be found - and how would a beginner know that he needed  
>>> them?
>>>
>>> And forget navigating to a folder - uuuuggggghhhh I can't find the  
>>> desktop at alll....
>>>
>>> OK... so I try  csound5gui... oh this is a little better ... looks  
>>> like a transport here and an editor....
>>>
>>> BUT where are the orchestras?
>>>
>>> So.... NO SOUND..... well... in my mind Csound is the most amazing  
>>> synth... but not in my speakers!
>>>
>>> So....  I had heard that QuteSound was the way to work with  
>>> Csound....
>>>
>>> launch the version I installed
>>>
>>> NOPE... seems I installed the double version of QuteCsound - and  
>>> (and why has it got the name Csound in it ... if there is NO  
>>> Csound in it...
>>> It's a cute launcher, quteHost... QuteWrapper  ????
>>>
>>> Just confused....
>>>
>>> So, I install another version o QuteCsound - and
>>>
>>> It launches - AMAZING...
>>>
>>> but where is the sound????
>>>
>>> Oh wait there is a menu - with examples....  - I go to one, I  
>>> select it... I push on the transport...
>>>
>>> NOPE - wrong Audio Driver  Wrong Hardware Setup....
>>>
>>> I choose the right hardware setup
>>>
>>> I click on the transport................
>>>
>>>
>>> Sound!!!!!! SOUND!!!!!!  (CRAPPY CRAPPPYYYYYY  CRAPPPPPPPY sound -  
>>> because this is a PC laptop my brother gave me - (I'm a mac guy  
>>> you see)
>>> AN Expert actually
>>>
>>> And I am setting it up for him.....  he's taking this class at  
>>> Berklee with the Dr. B.  guy....
>>>
>>> Well.... How would I know, as a beginner... to get rid of all that  
>>> chatter and breakup in the audio, I would need to set the -B and -
>>> b and check the boxes so that
>>> it uses the large number????
>>>
>>>
>>> I am happy now.... It took  ME more than 2 hours....  no  
>>> lie... .....
>>>
>>> It might take you less... and if you are lucky and you choose  
>>> wisely...
>>> (True...I am a bit sleepy.... I have been working 18-20 hours per  
>>> day on The Audio Programming Book - which I am delivering to MIT  
>>> Press in 10 days (waiting for the foreword from Max Mathews - and  
>>> tweeking things here and there........  and it's AMAZING!!!!! -
>>> with a lot of Csound in there too!  - plus..... MusicV (a working  
>>> version for all platforms! - a gift from Max Mathews)
>>> plus  (cmusic - workin version for all platforms!  a gift from F.  
>>> Richard Moore) .... and of course.....
>>>
>>> And by the way..........  when I get it running..........  Where  
>>> are the cool sounds!
>>>
>>> I know where they are - the Csound Catalog, cSounds.com, Csound  
>>> Book, Csound Journal, etc.... but.... will a beginner know where  
>>> to go... and what to do....
>>>
>>> after ALL this, I am afraid that a PRO - a colleage from Berklee  
>>> let's say.... blows off his family time on Sunday night - and  
>>> after 2 hours....
>>> Toot 1 - a sine wave........................
>>>
>>> Sorry...
>>>
>>> EMPTY TRASH
>>>
>>> UNINSTALL
>>>
>>> MOVE ON....
>>>
>>> -dB
>>>
>>> a "nightmare to install for beginners" (or PROFESSIONALS  
>>> especially) version of Csound5 for Windows!!  uuuuuugggggggghhhhhhhh
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Jul 2, 2009, at 7:10 PM, DavidW wrote:
>>>
>>>> Fran,
>>>> I am pleased that you don't have problems doing an install that  
>>>> suits you. And that you enjoy using it.
>>>> Thus, the difficulties we are discussing need not concern you.
>>>>
>>>> Bbuild difficulties and usage difficulties are different - I  
>>>> think it is best not to confuse them.
>>>>
>>>> D
>>>> On 03/07/2009, at 8:55 AM, francibal wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Dear all,
>>>>> I'm a beginner, and i have no knowledge in programming, but i  
>>>>> work with a pc
>>>>> windows (xp-vista),
>>>>> and i never had problems. I have installed many different  
>>>>> versions, and both
>>>>> float and double, and many times i have disinstalled and again,  
>>>>> but always
>>>>> it were all ok. And i'm not so able with a pc.
>>>>> Csound is not so easy at begin, but with a little bit (and with  
>>>>> a great help
>>>>> from You), one can understand how to work. A new frontend would  
>>>>> be really a
>>>>> pleasure. I use scite(!), and i'm studying emacs
>>>>> (thanks Mr Rollandin!), and for me it is sufficient. Maybe more  
>>>>> experienced
>>>>> users, like most of You, have some differents problems, I suppose.
>>>>>
>>>>> Only for report, from a lovers of csound,
>>>>>
>>>>> ciao, and thanks for all,
>>>>>
>>>>> fran.
>>>>> --
>>>>> View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Score-Alignment-Utility-tp24227460p24315191.html
>>>>> Sent from the Csound - General mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>>>>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@... with body  
>>>>> "unsubscribe csound"
>>>>
>>>> ________________________________________________
>>>> David Worrall.
>>>> - Experimental Polymedia:  worrall.avatar.com.au
>>>> - Sonification: www.sonifiction.com.au
>>>> - Education for Financial Independence: www.mindthemarkets.com.au
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>>>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@... with body  
>>>> "unsubscribe csound"
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@... with body  
>>> "unsubscribe csound"
>>
>>
>>
>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@... with body  
>> "unsubscribe csound"
>
>
>
> Send bugs reports to this list.
> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@... with body  
> "unsubscribe csound"

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[peiman]

Hi,

Thanks Andrés, I didn't know about the browser in QuteCsound. As for waveform viewer I meant something like the one in Supercollider where you can select a region (loop points and so on).

In csound~ external you can change table points in real-time and it seems to work relatively cheaply as far as CPU in concerned. But maybe for now an i-rate non-realtime table editor will do (like the one in cecilia) until you work out the real-time thing?

Again I repeat I wasn't complaining (even silently!) as I think QuteCsound is a great tool that's getting even better all the time.

Best
Peiman

2009/7/6 Andres Cabrera <mantaraya36@...>

Hi,

On Sun, Jul 5, 2009 at 8:14 AM, peiman khosravi<peimankhosravi@...> wrote:
> Hi,
> Yes I love QuteCsound and blue as front-ends but I was thinking that csound
> itself should include opcodes that can be hardcoded in the score and are
> platform independent (like the FLTK). In his way GUIs can be designed in
> such a way that even someone not knowing anything about csound can use them
> (like cecilia) without requiring extra

QuteCsound is crossplatform (and a frontend like cecilia...). The
widgets are not part of the score, but they are part of the csd file,
even though QuteCsound hides this part.

> front-ends. Maybe even a utility for easily designing FLTK GUIs is
> sufficient + we badly need a line/table editor, a file browser and a
> selectable waveform viewer they are also missing in QuteCsound (this is not
> a complain I think QuteCsound is great and I'm sure Andres will add these
> features at some point).

The only bad complaint is a silent complaint... =) There's no
line/table editor yet, as I'm not sure how viable it is as everytime
the table is changed, the whole table (or a large part of it) must be
passed to Csound which may be too expensive.

The other two are already available, you can browse files using the
_Browse channels (seems hacky, but I'm still trying to stay somewhat
compatible with MacCsound), see the . You can view the ftables with
the graph widget (which will also show the output of dispftt and
display).

Cheers,
Andrés

> Best
> Peiman
> 2009/7/5 joachim heintz <jh@...>
>>
>> Hi Peiman -
>>
>> as to the GUI: did you try QuteCsound? For me it's exactly what you
>> request (and what I was looking for before Andrés did it). Or what is
>> different in SC's GUI objects?
>>
>> Ciao -
>>        joachim
>>
>>
>>
>> Am 05.07.2009 um 11:32 schrieb peiman khosravi:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> Are you using csound~ external inside max?
>>>
>>> On a different note I would like to see one thing in csound, a better and
>>> easier framework for GUI design. I find the FLTK opcodes too tricky and some
>>> very important features like file browser or a real time table editor and a
>>> selectable waveform viewer are missing, besides the FLTK stuff doesn't work
>>> as it should on Leopard with the current tiger build of csound.
>>> Supercollider has an amazing set of objects for GUI design. At the moment I
>>> am using max to design GUIs for my csound instruments but not everyone can
>>> afford max.
>>>
>>> Again I love csladspa but I would love to be able to build csound [AU]
>>> plugins on the mac with fancy-ish GUIs (GUI design is minimal with csladspa
>>> as ladspa pluigins don't support elaborate GUIs). This is possible with
>>> pluggo and max/msp but unfortunately Cycling74 is no longer continuing the
>>> development of pluggo (this has been officially announced) in max5 which
>>> means it is no longer worth designing pluggo plugins as no one will be using
>>> max 4 in the near future.
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>> Peiman
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 2009/7/5 Jason Adams <jadams1@...>
>>> First off let me say that i'm new to this world (lovin' it, but still
>>> new), but i think the biggest thing that is/was standing in the way for
>>> myself to really dig in was the translation.  It was figuring out what the
>>> heck a "modified hyperbolic tangent distortion" is in laymans terms...
>>> (which is somewhat like a morphable distortion from soft clipping to hard
>>> clipping, in musical terms)  although the manual is amazing in that distort1
>>> is exactly what it says, a "modified hyperbolic tangent distortion".  i
>>> laughed at a few of the definitions right off the bat, even thought they are
>>> spot on, i had to translate the technical, exact definition into musical
>>> language that i understand.
>>>
>>> i think mike has some good suggestions... practical, building block
>>> toots, for those who can't afford/have-access-to the Csound book.  -using
>>> Csound with sequencers/DAWs, that would be amazing... i'm currently trying
>>> to figure how to pipe audio from max into Csound to do live
>>> granular/chopping/mayhem/resonating-Lanksy-style electric bass performance
>>> stuff and it's been a realy pain (i had little idea of where to start).
>>>
>>> this said, as a newb... i can't believe not only how active the community
>>> is (my inbox is constantly full) but also how interested you cats are in
>>> bring Csound to the masses while at the same time figuring out uber-geeky
>>> ways of making this program better (perhaps why i have come to really like
>>> this community... ah, the comfort in discovering like-minded individuals).
>>>
>>> best of luck in this... there is any way i could be of service my email
>>> is available... heck, here it is... jadams1@...
>>>
>>> ciao
>>> jAdams
>>> ---------------------------------------
>>> Original E-mail
>>> From: Mike Moser-Booth <mmoserbooth@...>
>>> Date: 07/05/2009 12:23 AM
>>> To: csound@...
>>> Subject: [Csnd] Re: How to make Csound more user-friendly
>>>
>>>
>>> I definitely agree that a sort of practical guide would go a long way to
>>> help new users of Csound. I think it might be worth taking a look at what
>>> other music programming environments have done in this area. Max/MSP and Pd
>>> immediately come to mind here. They both come with fairly extensive
>>> tutorials that start with the most basic "Hello World" patches and work
>>> their way up to more complicated techniques in a logical progression. Not
>>> only are the techniques practical themselves, but they are made more so by
>>> the fact information from preceding tutorials are applicable to later
>>> tutorials, thus making concepts that may initially seem out of reach more
>>> accessible. I know that seems elementary, but it seems to be lacking quite a
>>> bit in Csound world. So many tutorials are scattered in different sources
>>> and often assume a prior knowledge that one must search elsewhere to find.
>>> Dr. B's TOOTS are the only thing that immediately comes to mind that even
>>> comes close to fulfilling this paradigm, as they address the absolute
>>> beginner and build up from there.
>>>
>>> I would be very willing to contribute to a project like this. Just a
>>> couple of things I would add to your list, Joachim, off the top of my head:
>>> -using Csound in conjunction with sequencers/DAWs
>>> -a general "Using the Command Line" tutorial, as most people these days
>>> simply don't use it and don't have a clue
>>>
>>> .mmb
>>>
>>> joachim heintz wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I'd like to discuss this more in detail. I'd appreciate if we could
>>>> define some subjects/ projects: what must be done to improve the
>>>> user-friendlyness of Csound, and how can it be done? If there is a consensus
>>>> about some points, we could perhaps have some groups of people who are
>>>> willing to contribute to a certain issue.
>>>>
>>>> To begin with my own opinion: I'd like to have something like a
>>>> practical guide (and contribute to it) to the different approaches of
>>>> Csound. There should be good examples with rather short explanations to the
>>>> different chapters of Csound, including
>>>> - general configuration
>>>> - working with live input
>>>> - working with MIDI
>>>> - loop constructions and event management
>>>> - classical sound synthesis
>>>> - granular synthesis
>>>> - spectral processing
>>>> - working with the API
>>>> - using Csound and the utilities with Shell Scripts
>>>> - and and and ...
>>>>
>>>> The goal of this practical guide would be:
>>>> 1) to collect the most important informations about the different ways
>>>> of using Csound (for example, "what you should know about commandline
>>>> flags", "what you should know when you work with MIDI input")
>>>> 2) to give hints about which opcodes can be used for the different
>>>> approaches, uncluding some kind of selection (for example, the pvs opcodes
>>>> are actually replacing some older opcodes, or poscil can be used instead of
>>>> oscil also for non-power-of-two function tables)
>>>> 3) to show a rich collection of good examples: good in programming, with
>>>> interesting musical results.
>>>>
>>>> What others think about this? And are there other items, perhaps more
>>>> necessary?
>>>>
>>>>    joachim
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Am 29.06.2009 um 00:51 schrieb Jacob Joaquin:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Csound is not user-friendly.  If developers and others in the community
>>>>> spent
>>>>> a full year working towards improving the user-experience, while
>>>>> putting on
>>>>> hold everything else Csound related, this would be time well spent.
>>>>>  People
>>>>> are easily turned off the number of hoops they have to jump through -
>>>>> whether its issues with Python, or just rendering a file.  Csound is
>>>>> supposed to be an instrument of musical expression, not a technical
>>>>> hurdle.
>>>>>
>>>>> In my humble opinion.  :)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>>>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@... with body "unsubscribe
>>>> csound"
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Send bugs reports to this list.
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>> csound"
>

--


Andrés

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[Mark Van Peteghem-2]

Dr. Richard Boulanger wrote:
> ... a lot more than a sine wave.  (and by the way toot1 is my sinewave
> right?  I am being critical of my work too here.

I actually think it's ideal for a first lesson, because it is really a
foundation. A bit like a program that prints "Hello world!", which is
the first example in many programming languages - not impressive at all,
but good as a first lesson. I think users understand that this is just
the begin.

But Michael Gogins' tutorial starts by showing how to play an existing
example, by letting new users play Xanadu, that sure makes a good first
impression. Shortly after that it teaches how to create a sine wave. And
it's a great introduction to CSound in all.

Unfortunately it took me some time before I found the tutorial by MG
after I installed CSound, because I first looked in the doc folder,
where there are two huge pdf's that are of no use to a beginner, they
make you think CSound is for Einsteins. Then I found the documentation
in the folder doc\manual, and as hobby web developer I was lucky to know
that you better start with index.html, and then I could finally start
learning CSound. The C++ library Boost has a index.html file in the top
folder of their distribution, which is simply a redirect to the main
page of the documentation, it would be nice to have that.

--
  Mark
  _________________________________________
  When you get lemons, you make lemonade.
  When you get hardware, you make software.



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[csounder]

Julian,

I took and take your points to heart too... and very much appreciate  
them....  I was being a little too *cute* for sure - and
I am sorry that i went a bit over the line - to make a point.  Surely  
I offended some - and for that I am sorry.

This is an amazing community - of incredibly dedicated volunteers,  
who, through their 22+ years of generous contributions
to this cause,  have made a huge difference in the world of computer  
music - of music.

There is no way to sufficiently express the gratitude that I feel.  
All I can do, as a teacher, a student and a friend, is to share their  
gift
of time and talent with as many as I can - and I do...  three  
semesters a year for the past 23 years - 6 to 12 students a semester.
(one starfish at a time.)

-drB


On Jul 6, 2009, at 2:09 AM, Julian Peterson wrote:

> Thanks, Dr. B.  I understand your position much better from this  
> last email.  I'm sorry if I mistook your tone from before.
>
> J
>
>
>
> On Jul 5, 2009, at 10:13 PM, Dr. Richard Boulanger wrote:
>
>> Not being critical at all Julian....
>> I am close with all the developers...  and they know how much I  
>> respect and love their work.
>> And also....... For many years now, I have been giving a great deal  
>> of support to many many csounders....
>>
>>
>> I was trying to be a little funny.  (but also somewhat serious...)  
>> in that... it did take that long... and there was that much trial  
>> and error)
>> and... most *professional* music software these days - and a ton of  
>> free stuff too - does not involve so much trial and error.
>>
>> Audacity... just installed on the PC.  go to audacity.  choose the  
>> latest windows version... install... Boom...
>> - want to add some extra features to Audacity... a few notes here a  
>> link there... boom.... working.... minutes not hours... and what I  
>> can do
>> with the app, the minute I open it... a lot more than a sine wave.  
>> (and by the way toot1 is my sinewave right?  I am being critical of  
>> my work too here.
>>
>> Note please that the first place I went was my own cSounds.com -  
>> and there one gets quite confused - by all the choices.
>>
>> But NO.... a long step by step is NOT what we need.
>>
>> We just need an installer works, and that has the right stuff there  
>> (some good demos, some good toots, some good examples of music  
>> (QuteCsound has all this now!)
>> - for the PC at for Sure - and for All platforms really... (and  
>> maybe we need to think about a developer's build that has more  
>> openness and cutting edge features
>> - also for all platforms - maybe we all build that from CVS even.)
>>
>> Most of what I suggest is there for the Mac (thanks to Victor's  
>> work on that one) - yet it's true that students of mine still get  
>> snagged there too - but less often.
>> (actually, they get snagged for almost the same reason as the PC -  
>> with Cecilia installs, because there are so many versions.)
>>
>>
>> I wanted to share the experience that my students and colleagues  
>> bring to me - all the time...
>> and then they usually walk away...
>>
>> There are a lot of ways of using Csound.  It continues to get  
>> better and better - and... more musical models make it much easier  
>> to work with.
>>
>> Cecilia is an amazing example of this.......  anyone and everyone  
>> can get some serious Csound from that - right.
>>
>> You are preaching to the choir here - about how dedicated some of  
>> us might be to Csound.
>>
>> What I am sad about... (honestly sad) is.... the fact that we  
>> absolutely continue to make the language better and better - and  
>> the manuals, and the tutorials...
>> and we continue to come up with new and incredibly powerful ways to  
>> work with the language and make it work.... but... we are in so deep
>> and so happy with our quite advanced personal csoundLabs....  I  
>> have always wanted everyone to get Csound... that's what was behind  
>> The Csound Book.
>> (and that will be behind The Csound5 Book too! - so there will be  
>> chapters on MIDI and working with commercial DAWs, etc..  as well  
>> as the API, Python
>> OSC stuff.
>>
>> Sadly, I will offer a Csound workshop to another group of 50 on  
>> July 17.  I will show them ALL the cool things that commercial  
>> musician, film composers, game developers, iPhone developers, and  
>> serious composers, are doing with Csound... and I will take them  
>> through the process of installing it and getting it going - now on  
>> both the mac and the pc.... but... once again... 2 or three will  
>> get it to work on their PCs the next day - and there is no next  
>> day... I am not doing Csound the next day... so... they are
>> then on their own... and probably... looking elsewhere - because  
>> they got elsewhere to work!
>>
>>
>> -dB
>>
>> PS - logic is no simple program.  Live is easy and intuitive, but  
>> not simple.  Max is not easy, but it is logical, seductive,  
>> inviting, and addicting and ALL the things that Csound should be!  
>> (and is becoming for sure)
>>
>> PPS... for less than $300, anyone can get a pretty incredible  
>> laptop - and if they are running windows on it, I hope that they  
>> ALL will run/learn/use Csound, Cecilia, Audacity, etc. - and that  
>> they will ALL be easy to install - in inspiring right out of the box!
>>
>> PPPPPPPS....  absolutely was not trying to insult anyone... and if  
>> I did... please please please accept my sincere apology......
>> .
>> Dr. Richard Boulanger  -  rboulanger@...
>>
>>
>>
>> On Jul 6, 2009, at 12:41 AM, Julian Peterson wrote:
>>
>>> Perhaps then, write a step by step tutorial to installing csound  
>>> on Windows.  Problem solved.
>>>
>>> It's not my intention to be flippant, Dr. B., it's just that your  
>>> ongoing criticism doesn't really help, and I fear it only serves  
>>> to alienate those developers that have spent so many hours working  
>>> on the software pro bono.
>>>
>>> Here's the reality of the situation: csound is a programming  
>>> language.  It's a great programming language, one we're all  
>>> devoted to, and one which we all rightfully believe is one of the  
>>> most powerful ever imagined for music and sound production.  We  
>>> all use it in our work, and all have deep and profound feelings of  
>>> fondness for it.  So no one questions your intentions in pursuing  
>>> this topic, and certainly there is validity to your point.  However:
>>>
>>> csound will never be easy.
>>>
>>> Right?  I mean, it can't be.  Even if I were to show up and  
>>> install csound for a friend, thereby completely bypassing for them  
>>> the scenario you detailed in your email, they still wouldn't be  
>>> able to do jack shit with it without ponying up a lot of time to  
>>> learn how to use it.  More time than is required for most other  
>>> music software (and certainly all commercial software).  And this  
>>> is how we want it, isn't it?  Not because we mean to discourage  
>>> users, but because we want a flexible and robust tool.  And the  
>>> more flexible a computer language/program is, the steeper the  
>>> learning curve.  If csound were easier, it would be, well, Reason,  
>>> or some other prefab tool which, while certainly handy and fun,  
>>> ain't no csound.
>>>
>>> So while I understand and am sympathetic to what you are saying,  
>>> it's a bit misguided to hope that csound can be as simple and easy  
>>> as a commercial music program.  They have different goals, and  
>>> cater to different audiences.
>>>
>>> I've often imagined that there exists some curve, similar to a  
>>> supply and demand curve, for the ease of use of a software  
>>> program.  The analogy would be this:  easy of use would be like  
>>> the demand, and power of the program would be the supply.  If  
>>> there is a tremendous amount of flexibility and power in a program/
>>> language, then the ease of use must necessarily be low, and vice  
>>> versa.  Well designed software maximizes the ease of use for a  
>>> given amount of power.  Csound is extremely powerful.  And  
>>> considering this, it's also pretty easy to use.  We might find  
>>> opportunity for small improvements in ease of use, but there is an  
>>> upward limit as long as we expect csound to remain as flexible and  
>>> powerful as it is currently.
>>>
>>> Your lambasting of the developers for not creating a csound  
>>> capable of one-click-install for any first-year student with a  
>>> crummy laptop might spring from the very best of intentions, but  
>>> the effect it's having is one of lambasting the developers (and  
>>> one in particular) whose enthusiasm for continuing to improve  
>>> csound cannot be helped by your crude parable.  And I'd rather  
>>> much like to keep them around and keep them focused on where their  
>>> skills are best served: improving the mechanics of csound.
>>>
>>> The best way to help the situation is to contribute code, but you  
>>> might be in the same position I am in of not really having the  
>>> chops necessary to assist in that capacity.  The next best thing  
>>> would be to contribute documentation, such as a HowTo for  
>>> installing csound on Windows.  I would imagine that for yourself  
>>> the best thing you can do would be to continue that great work you  
>>> currently perform: being a fierce advocate for the usage and  
>>> improvement of csound.  Everyone here recognizes and appreciates  
>>> your work in that respect.
>>>
>>> But if I may offer a modicum of advice: find a manner of  
>>> expressing this advocacy that doesn't come across as quite so  
>>> insulting and demeaning to the developers of that program we both  
>>> love so dearly.  That will best serve your goals and the csound  
>>> community at large.
>>>
>>> Yours,
>>>
>>> Julian Peterson
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Jul 5, 2009, at 9:07 PM, Dr. Richard Boulanger wrote:
>>>
>>>> OK.
>>>>
>>>> On a clean XP machine, I tried to be a new user and get the  
>>>> latest version of Csound running.
>>>>
>>>> So... like a pro who doesn't know, but hears it's the bomb....
>>>>
>>>> After an hour of trial and error, and hunt and hope, i finally  
>>>> got it running!  (with QuteCsound as the frontEnd)
>>>>
>>>> No way would a beginner (or worse - a seasoned pro - put up with  
>>>> this)
>>>>
>>>> Here's what happens
>>>>
>>>> Go to cSounds.com to find *almost everything Csound*
>>>>
>>>> First thing in the news is QuteCsound.
>>>> ? what's that ?  Not sure I want something that's Cute?  I want  
>>>> to make some serious BEATS!!!!  MAN....
>>>> But OK... maybe they call Csound Cute Csound now....
>>>>
>>>> Go to download
>>>>
>>>> Hummmm... there are 2 versions  Double and Float???  Hummmm
>>>> - I use Logic Pro and Ableton Live and Audacity - and they have  
>>>> never asked me about double or float.
>>>>
>>>> OK - I will download both
>>>>
>>>> I will install one - doesn't work - not too cute
>>>> I install the other - oesn't work - not cute at ALL...
>>>>
>>>> But wait... Back to cSounds.com... Oh.. there's a download tab/
>>>> link,,,
>>>>
>>>> Ah..  here I find Canonical Csound5 - ALL PLATFORMS
>>>> - cool, but what does canonical mean? build in echo?  No  
>>>> commercial software uses this term - and I have EVERY commercial  
>>>> program on my PC!
>>>> (i even paid for 1 of them)
>>>>
>>>> Csound Page at Sourceforge - what?  what's sourceforge..
>>>>
>>>> OK... I go....
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Download the latest Csound5.10 for Windows  (a binary?  what's  
>>>> that?  I never got the Reason 4.0 *binary*
>>>>
>>>> Worse... again 4 versions  5.9, 5,10 f, d, huh?
>>>>
>>>> - but which version float or double?
>>>> Install
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Now here's where the fun begins (and beginners GIVE UP) (if they  
>>>> haven't already)
>>>>
>>>> - Dialog appears... you don't have Python  ?  What?  I want Csound?
>>>> but it says.... you can keep installing...
>>>>
>>>> great.
>>>>
>>>> Keep installing
>>>>
>>>> then... what do I click on to run Csound - why not try csound....
>>>>
>>>> NOPE...   doesn't run without Python...
>>>>
>>>> Then why the @!!@$#@%$#@!#  did you let me install it if it won't  
>>>> run without python?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Maybe it does...
>>>>
>>>> Now to find Python?
>>>>
>>>> And this is not easy... there are dozens of versions of  
>>>> Python...  I downloaded 6 or 7
>>>> Finally, one installed... (time is passing... no C sound .... no  
>>>> sound....
>>>>
>>>> OK.
>>>>
>>>> Python is installed - not even sure what version - just whatever  
>>>> one would install...
>>>>
>>>> OK...
>>>>
>>>> Then... install Csound again.
>>>>
>>>> Hum??? Should I uninstall first to be on the safe side?
>>>> Did I install 2 versions or one over the other?
>>>>
>>>> OK....
>>>>
>>>> install Csound float
>>>>
>>>> YEAH... no dialog box complaining about Python... (maybe I got it)
>>>>
>>>> (((( Has it almost taken you 1 hour to read this email yet)))))  
>>>> - because I do know how cool Csound is.... I do know it's worth  
>>>> it.... but....
>>>> I am about ready to give up...
>>>>
>>>> Why?
>>>>
>>>> Welll ... in the csound folder is csound, winsound, csound5gui,  
>>>> blah blah blh.. - which door to I chose?
>>>>
>>>> I chose Csound... makes sense,,,  I am installing Csound...
>>>>
>>>> terminal appears.... some text wizzes by.... terminal disappears.!
>>>>
>>>> OK... I try winSound....
>>>>
>>>> - it doesn't make any sound?  it needs an orc or sco and there  
>>>> are none to be found - and how would a beginner know that he  
>>>> needed them?
>>>>
>>>> And forget navigating to a folder - uuuuggggghhhh I can't find  
>>>> the desktop at alll....
>>>>
>>>> OK... so I try  csound5gui... oh this is a little better ...  
>>>> looks like a transport here and an editor....
>>>>
>>>> BUT where are the orchestras?
>>>>
>>>> So.... NO SOUND..... well... in my mind Csound is the most  
>>>> amazing synth... but not in my speakers!
>>>>
>>>> So....  I had heard that QuteSound was the way to work with  
>>>> Csound....
>>>>
>>>> launch the version I installed
>>>>
>>>> NOPE... seems I installed the double version of QuteCsound - and  
>>>> (and why has it got the name Csound in it ... if there is NO  
>>>> Csound in it...
>>>> It's a cute launcher, quteHost... QuteWrapper  ????
>>>>
>>>> Just confused....
>>>>
>>>> So, I install another version o QuteCsound - and
>>>>
>>>> It launches - AMAZING...
>>>>
>>>> but where is the sound????
>>>>
>>>> Oh wait there is a menu - with examples....  - I go to one, I  
>>>> select it... I push on the transport...
>>>>
>>>> NOPE - wrong Audio Driver  Wrong Hardware Setup....
>>>>
>>>> I choose the right hardware setup
>>>>
>>>> I click on the transport................
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sound!!!!!! SOUND!!!!!!  (CRAPPY CRAPPPYYYYYY  CRAPPPPPPPY sound  
>>>> - because this is a PC laptop my brother gave me - (I'm a mac guy  
>>>> you see)
>>>> AN Expert actually
>>>>
>>>> And I am setting it up for him.....  he's taking this class at  
>>>> Berklee with the Dr. B.  guy....
>>>>
>>>> Well.... How would I know, as a beginner... to get rid of all  
>>>> that chatter and breakup in the audio, I would need to set the -B  
>>>> and -b and check the boxes so that
>>>> it uses the large number????
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I am happy now.... It took  ME more than 2 hours....  no  
>>>> lie... .....
>>>>
>>>> It might take you less... and if you are lucky and you choose  
>>>> wisely...
>>>> (True...I am a bit sleepy.... I have been working 18-20 hours per  
>>>> day on The Audio Programming Book - which I am delivering to MIT  
>>>> Press in 10 days (waiting for the foreword from Max Mathews - and  
>>>> tweeking things here and there........  and it's AMAZING!!!!! -
>>>> with a lot of Csound in there too!  - plus..... MusicV (a working  
>>>> version for all platforms! - a gift from Max Mathews)
>>>> plus  (cmusic - workin version for all platforms!  a gift from F.  
>>>> Richard Moore) .... and of course.....
>>>>
>>>> And by the way..........  when I get it running..........  Where  
>>>> are the cool sounds!
>>>>
>>>> I know where they are - the Csound Catalog, cSounds.com, Csound  
>>>> Book, Csound Journal, etc.... but.... will a beginner know where  
>>>> to go... and what to do....
>>>>
>>>> after ALL this, I am afraid that a PRO - a colleage from Berklee  
>>>> let's say.... blows off his family time on Sunday night - and  
>>>> after 2 hours....
>>>> Toot 1 - a sine wave........................
>>>>
>>>> Sorry...
>>>>
>>>> EMPTY TRASH
>>>>
>>>> UNINSTALL
>>>>
>>>> MOVE ON....
>>>>
>>>> -dB
>>>>
>>>> a "nightmare to install for beginners" (or PROFESSIONALS  
>>>> especially) version of Csound5 for Windows!!  
>>>> uuuuuugggggggghhhhhhhh
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Jul 2, 2009, at 7:10 PM, DavidW wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Fran,
>>>>> I am pleased that you don't have problems doing an install that  
>>>>> suits you. And that you enjoy using it.
>>>>> Thus, the difficulties we are discussing need not concern you.
>>>>>
>>>>> Bbuild difficulties and usage difficulties are different - I  
>>>>> think it is best not to confuse them.
>>>>>
>>>>> D
>>>>> On 03/07/2009, at 8:55 AM, francibal wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dear all,
>>>>>> I'm a beginner, and i have no knowledge in programming, but i  
>>>>>> work with a pc
>>>>>> windows (xp-vista),
>>>>>> and i never had problems. I have installed many different  
>>>>>> versions, and both
>>>>>> float and double, and many times i have disinstalled and again,  
>>>>>> but always
>>>>>> it were all ok. And i'm not so able with a pc.
>>>>>> Csound is not so easy at begin, but with a little bit (and with  
>>>>>> a great help
>>>>>> from You), one can understand how to work. A new frontend would  
>>>>>> be really a
>>>>>> pleasure. I use scite(!), and i'm studying emacs
>>>>>> (thanks Mr Rollandin!), and for me it is sufficient. Maybe more  
>>>>>> experienced
>>>>>> users, like most of You, have some differents problems, I  
>>>>>> suppose.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Only for report, from a lovers of csound,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ciao, and thanks for all,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> fran.
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Score-Alignment-Utility-tp24227460p24315191.html
>>>>>> Sent from the Csound - General mailing list archive at  
>>>>>> Nabble.com.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@... with body  
>>>>>> "unsubscribe csound"
>>>>>
>>>>> ________________________________________________
>>>>> David Worrall.
>>>>> - Experimental Polymedia:  worrall.avatar.com.au
>>>>> - Sonification: www.sonifiction.com.au
>>>>> - Education for Financial Independence: www.mindthemarkets.com.au
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>>>>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@... with body  
>>>>> "unsubscribe csound"
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>>>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@... with body  
>>>> "unsubscribe csound"
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@... with body  
>>> "unsubscribe csound"
>>
>>
>>
>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@... with body  
>> "unsubscribe csound"
>
>
>
> Send bugs reports to this list.
> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@... with body  
> "unsubscribe csound"

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[Michael Gogins-2]

This is a good suggestion, I will incorporate it.

Also, I will repeat my suggestion that we advertise only one build of Csound
for release, either float or double. It doesn't have to be the same build on
every OS.

Regards,
Mike

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Van Peteghem" <Mark.Van.Peteghem@...>
To: <csound@...>
Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 4:21 AM
Subject: [Csnd] Re: Re: Re: Re: WE Desperately NEED a Simple Installer/Build
for Windowswith QuteCsound

> Dr. Richard Boulanger wrote:
>> ... a lot more than a sine wave.  (and by the way toot1 is my sinewave
>> right?  I am being critical of my work too here.
>
> I actually think it's ideal for a first lesson, because it is really a
> foundation. A bit like a program that prints "Hello world!", which is the
> first example in many programming languages - not impressive at all, but
> good as a first lesson. I think users understand that this is just the
> begin.
>
> But Michael Gogins' tutorial starts by showing how to play an existing
> example, by letting new users play Xanadu, that sure makes a good first
> impression. Shortly after that it teaches how to create a sine wave. And
> it's a great introduction to CSound in all.
>
> Unfortunately it took me some time before I found the tutorial by MG after
> I installed CSound, because I first looked in the doc folder, where there
> are two huge pdf's that are of no use to a beginner, they make you think
> CSound is for Einsteins. Then I found the documentation in the folder
> doc\manual, and as hobby web developer I was lucky to know that you better
> start with index.html, and then I could finally start learning CSound. The
> C++ library Boost has a index.html file in the top folder of their
> distribution, which is simply a redirect to the main page of the
> documentation, it would be nice to have that.
>
> --
>  Mark
>  _________________________________________
>  When you get lemons, you make lemonade.
>  When you get hardware, you make software.
>
>
>
> Send bugs reports to this list.
> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@... with body "unsubscribe
> csound"
>

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[mark jamerson]

 

      As a relatively recent (a few years) beginner to the realm of Csound, I would like to make a suggestion regarding the csounds.com website issue that Dr. B brings up.  I agree with his discovery that the first page is not exactly aimed at the beginner. I think it might help to have some sort of "Get Started With Csound" link that is highly visible.  The link would then go to a page that has links to one version of Csound for each OS, and one version of Python.  I think we should restrict the beginner's choice as much as possible.  Take out the choice of float or double, and let them make that choice when they are more familiar with the world of csound.  I also think that the Csound we offer to beginner's should be the core Csound that has recently been discussed( This could also eliminate the need for python) .  Something like a demo version, with a note telling the beginner that they can get more out of Csound later if they choose.  I also think
 the beginner version of Csound should include QuteCsound (The appropriate version to match the only Csound we offer them).  I only recently checked out QuteCsound, and I think it is highly accessible and user-friendly.  I never found that with winsound or csound5gui, and wound up using WinXound instead.  
     
      Basically my main point is that I think we need to create a portal for the beginners to be funnelled through that is limited in scope so as not to confuse them in the beginning.  

                                                Mark


----- Original Message ----
From: Dr. Richard Boulanger <richardboulanger@...>
To: csound@...
Sent: Sunday, July 5, 2009 11:07:59 PM
Subject: [Csnd] Re: WE Desperately NEED a Simple Installer/Build for Windowswith QuteCsound (was: Building Python API

OK.

On a clean XP machine, I tried to be a new user and get the latest version of Csound running.

So... like a pro who doesn't know, but hears it's the bomb....

After an hour of trial and error, and hunt and hope, i finally got it running!  (with QuteCsound as the frontEnd)

No way would a beginner (or worse - a seasoned pro - put up with this)

Here's what happens

Go to cSounds.com to find *almost everything Csound*

First thing in the news is QuteCsound.
? what's that ?  Not sure I want something that's Cute?  I want to make some serious BEATS!!!!  MAN....
But OK... maybe they call Csound Cute Csound now....

Go to download

Hummmm... there are 2 versions  Double and Float???  Hummmm
- I use Logic Pro and Ableton Live and Audacity - and they have never asked me about double or float.

OK - I will download both

I will install one - doesn't work - not too cute
I install the other - oesn't work - not cute at ALL...

But wait... Back to cSounds.com... Oh.. there's a download tab/link,,,

Ah..  here I find Canonical Csound5 - ALL PLATFORMS    
- cool, but what does canonical mean? build in echo?  No commercial software uses this term - and I have EVERY commercial program on my PC!
(i even paid for 1 of them)

Csound Page at Sourceforge - what?  what's sourceforge..

OK... I go....


Download the latest Csound5.10 for Windows  (a binary?  what's that?  I never got the Reason 4.0 *binary*

Worse... again 4 versions  5.9, 5,10 f, d, huh?

- but which version float or double?
Install


Now here's where the fun begins (and beginners GIVE UP) (if they haven't already)

- Dialog appears... you don't have Python  ?  What?  I want Csound?
but it says.... you can keep installing...

great.

Keep installing

then... what do I click on to run Csound - why not try csound....

NOPE...   doesn't run without Python...

Then why the @!!@$#@%$#@!#  did you let me install it if it won't run without python?


Maybe it does...

Now to find Python?

And this is not easy... there are dozens of versions of Python...  I downloaded 6 or 7
Finally, one installed... (time is passing... no C sound .... no sound....

OK.

Python is installed - not even sure what version - just whatever one would install...

OK...

Then... install Csound again.

Hum??? Should I uninstall first to be on the safe side?
Did I install 2 versions or one over the other?

OK....

install Csound float

YEAH... no dialog box complaining about Python... (maybe I got it)

(((( Has it almost taken you 1 hour to read this email yet)))))  - because I do know how cool Csound is.... I do know it's worth it.... but....
I am about ready to give up...

Why?

Welll ... in the csound folder is csound, winsound, csound5gui, blah blah blh.. - which door to I chose?

I chose Csound... makes sense,,,  I am installing Csound...

terminal appears.... some text wizzes by.... terminal disappears.!

OK... I try winSound....

- it doesn't make any sound?  it needs an orc or sco and there are none to be found - and how would a beginner know that he needed them?

And forget navigating to a folder - uuuuggggghhhh I can't find the desktop at alll....

OK... so I try  csound5gui... oh this is a little better ... looks like a transport here and an editor....

BUT where are the orchestras?

So.... NO SOUND..... well... in my mind Csound is the most amazing synth... but not in my speakers!

So....  I had heard that QuteSound was the way to work with Csound....

launch the version I installed

NOPE... seems I installed the double version of QuteCsound - and (and why has it got the name Csound in it ... if there is NO Csound in it...
It's a cute launcher, quteHost... QuteWrapper  ????

Just confused....

So, I install another version o QuteCsound - and

It launches - AMAZING...

but where is the sound????

Oh wait there is a menu - with examples....  - I go to one, I select it... I push on the transport...

NOPE - wrong Audio Driver  Wrong Hardware Setup....

I choose the right hardware setup

I click on the transport................


Sound!!!!!! SOUND!!!!!!  (CRAPPY CRAPPPYYYYYY  CRAPPPPPPPY sound - because this is a PC laptop my brother gave me - (I'm a mac guy you see)
AN Expert actually

And I am setting it up for him.....  he's taking this class at Berklee with the Dr. B.  guy....

Well.... How would I know, as a beginner... to get rid of all that chatter and breakup in the audio, I would need to set the -B and -b and check the boxes so that
it uses the large number????


I am happy now.... It took  ME more than 2 hours....  no lie... .....

It might take you less... and if you are lucky and you choose wisely...
(True...I am a bit sleepy.... I have been working 18-20 hours per day on The Audio Programming Book - which I am delivering to MIT Press in 10 days (waiting for the foreword from Max Mathews - and tweeking things here and there........  and it's AMAZING!!!!! -
with a lot of Csound in there too!  - plus..... MusicV (a working version for all platforms! - a gift from Max Mathews)
plus  (cmusic - workin version for all platforms!  a gift from F. Richard Moore) .... and of course.....

And by the way..........  when I get it running..........  Where are the cool sounds!

I know where they are - the Csound Catalog, cSounds.com, Csound Book, Csound Journal, etc.... but.... will a beginner know where to go... and what to do....

after ALL this, I am afraid that a PRO - a colleage from Berklee let's say.... blows off his family time on Sunday night - and after 2 hours....
Toot 1 - a sine wave........................

Sorry...

EMPTY TRASH

UNINSTALL

MOVE ON....

-dB

a "nightmare to install for beginners" (or PROFESSIONALS especially) version of Csound5 for Windows!!  uuuuuugggggggghhhhhhhh





On Jul 2, 2009, at 7:10 PM, DavidW wrote:

> Fran,
> I am pleased that you don't have problems doing an install that suits you. And that you enjoy using it.
> Thus, the difficulties we are discussing need not concern you.
>
> Bbuild difficulties and usage difficulties are different - I think it is best not to confuse them.
>
> D
> On 03/07/2009, at 8:55 AM, francibal wrote:
>
>>
>> Dear all,
>> I'm a beginner, and i have no knowledge in programming, but i work with a pc
>> windows (xp-vista),
>> and i never had problems. I have installed many different versions, and both
>> float and double, and many times i have disinstalled and again, but always
>> it were all ok. And i'm not so able with a pc.
>> Csound is not so easy at begin, but with a little bit (and with a great help
>> from You), one can understand how to work. A new frontend would be really a
>> pleasure. I use scite(!), and i'm studying emacs
>> (thanks Mr Rollandin!), and for me it is sufficient. Maybe more experienced
>> users, like most of You, have some differents problems, I suppose.
>>
>> Only for report, from a lovers of csound,
>>
>> ciao, and thanks for all,
>>
>> fran.
>> --View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Score-Alignment-Utility-tp24227460p24315191.html
>> Sent from the Csound - General mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>
>>
>>
>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@... with body "unsubscribe csound"
>
> ________________________________________________
> David Worrall.
> - Experimental Polymedia:      worrall.avatar.com.au
> - Sonification: www.sonifiction.com.au
> - Education for Financial Independence: www.mindthemarkets.com.au
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Send bugs reports to this list.
> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@... with body "unsubscribe csound"

Send bugs reports to this list.
To unsubscribe, send email sympa@... with body "unsubscribe csound"



     


Send bugs reports to this list.
To unsubscribe, send email sympa@... with body "unsubscribe csound"

[Dr. David Horowitz]

Some parts of this message have been removed. Learn more about Nabble's security policy.

Dear Dr. B.

 

I am moderately new to CSound but making excellent progress.

 

I have decided to purchase your book but I have a question:

 

Does the book contain the same materials as the catalog or are they different?

 

The materials on the web dont make clear whether the book comes with the catalog and Barnes and Noble says the book comes with 3000 instruments.  If it does does the catalog contain different instruments?

 

By way of mention, in the 80s I was in Barry Vercoe's program on music perception and computer music at MIT.  I am excited to be back in the field again and using my training.  I am CTO of a new company in computer music and I live in London.

 

Many thanks

 

David Horowitz

[Michael Bechard]

f1 0 1024 10 1 0
...
instr 1
aout oscili 25000, 440, 1
outs aout, aout
endin
...
i1 0 4

Not too bad, is it? Intuitive, no, but that's four lines of code and a few simple concepts.

Gets even easier with a frontend.

Some (not much) of CSound *is* easy, and some of it *could* be. Installation certainly falls into the latter category.

I agree with Dr. B. that it should be easy for a new user to download and install CSound, and then *intuitively* explore, compile, and hear the results of any number of examples. This is almost impossible without a frontend, and is why I'm all for bundling CSound with something that breaks the ice for a new user. The more familiar and intuitive, the better. Bundling some toots in to, say, the help menu would be even better. In Windows, Ideally:

1. Run install package, no hickups.
2. Go to Program menu, click on CSound Editor shortcut
3. immediately get intro dialog box explaining where example examples are, or asking if they want them opened.
4. One-click to compile and listen to csd.

Learning all the nuances and details of what CSound has to offer will always be a learning experience for a new user, and will require effort and patience on their part. I just hate to think that, on top of having to learn CSound, they have to wrestle with unrelated issues like Python compatability, trying to find easy examples on the net, etc.

Michael Bechard



----- Original Message ----
From: Julian Peterson <julianpeterson@...>
To: csound@...
Sent: Sunday, July 5, 2009 11:41:47 PM
Subject: [Csnd] Re: Re: WE Desperately NEED a Simple Installer/Build for Windowswith QuteCsound (was: Building Python API

Perhaps then, write a step by step tutorial to installing csound on Windows.  Problem solved.

It's not my intention to be flippant, Dr. B., it's just that your ongoing criticism doesn't really help, and I fear it only serves to alienate those developers that have spent so many hours working on the software pro bono.

Here's the reality of the situation: csound is a programming language.  It's a great programming language, one we're all devoted to, and one which we all rightfully believe is one of the most powerful ever imagined for music and sound production.  We all use it in our work, and all have deep and profound feelings of fondness for it.  So no one questions your intentions in pursuing this topic, and certainly there is validity to your point.  However:

csound will never be easy.

Right?  I mean, it can't be.  Even if I were to show up and install csound for a friend, thereby completely bypassing for them the scenario you detailed in your email, they still wouldn't be able to do jack shit with it without ponying up a lot of time to learn how to use it.  More time than is required for most other music software (and certainly all commercial software).  And this is how we want it, isn't it?  Not because we mean to discourage users, but because we want a flexible and robust tool.  And the more flexible a computer language/program is, the steeper the learning curve.  If csound were easier, it would be, well, Reason, or some other prefab tool which, while certainly handy and fun, ain't no csound.

So while I understand and am sympathetic to what you are saying, it's a bit misguided to hope that csound can be as simple and easy as a commercial music program.  They have different goals, and cater to different audiences.

I've often imagined that there exists some curve, similar to a supply and demand curve, for the ease of use of a software program.  The analogy would be this:  easy of use would be like the demand, and power of the program would be the supply.  If there is a tremendous amount of flexibility and power in a program/language, then the ease of use must necessarily be low, and vice versa.  Well designed software maximizes the ease of use for a given amount of power.  Csound is extremely powerful.  And considering this, it's also pretty easy to use.  We might find opportunity for small improvements in ease of use, but there is an upward limit as long as we expect csound to remain as flexible and powerful as it is currently.

Your lambasting of the developers for not creating a csound capable of one-click-install for any first-year student with a crummy laptop might spring from the very best of intentions, but the effect it's having is one of lambasting the developers (and one in particular) whose enthusiasm for continuing to improve csound cannot be helped by your crude parable.  And I'd rather much like to keep them around and keep them focused on where their skills are best served: improving the mechanics of csound.

The best way to help the situation is to contribute code, but you might be in the same position I am in of not really having the chops necessary to assist in that capacity.  The next best thing would be to contribute documentation, such as a HowTo for installing csound on Windows.  I would imagine that for yourself the best thing you can do would be to continue that great work you currently perform: being a fierce advocate for the usage and improvement of csound.  Everyone here recognizes and appreciates your work in that respect.

But if I may offer a modicum of advice: find a manner of expressing this advocacy that doesn't come across as quite so insulting and demeaning to the developers of that program we both love so dearly.  That will best serve your goals and the csound community at large.

Yours,

Julian Peterson



On Jul 5, 2009, at 9:07 PM, Dr. Richard Boulanger wrote:

> OK.
>
> On a clean XP machine, I tried to be a new user and get the latest version of Csound running.
>
> So... like a pro who doesn't know, but hears it's the bomb....
>
> After an hour of trial and error, and hunt and hope, i finally got it running!  (with QuteCsound as the frontEnd)
>
> No way would a beginner (or worse - a seasoned pro - put up with this)
>
> Here's what happens
>
> Go to cSounds.com to find *almost everything Csound*
>
> First thing in the news is QuteCsound.
> ? what's that ?  Not sure I want something that's Cute?  I want to make some serious BEATS!!!!  MAN....
> But OK... maybe they call Csound Cute Csound now....
>
> Go to download
>
> Hummmm... there are 2 versions  Double and Float???  Hummmm
> - I use Logic Pro and Ableton Live and Audacity - and they have never asked me about double or float.
>
> OK - I will download both
>
> I will install one - doesn't work - not too cute
> I install the other - oesn't work - not cute at ALL...
>
> But wait... Back to cSounds.com... Oh.. there's a download tab/link,,,
>
> Ah..  here I find Canonical Csound5 - ALL PLATFORMS    
> - cool, but what does canonical mean? build in echo?  No commercial software uses this term - and I have EVERY commercial program on my PC!
> (i even paid for 1 of them)
>
> Csound Page at Sourceforge - what?  what's sourceforge..
>
> OK... I go....
>
>
> Download the latest Csound5.10 for Windows  (a binary?  what's that?  I never got the Reason 4.0 *binary*
>
> Worse... again 4 versions  5.9, 5,10 f, d, huh?
>
> - but which version float or double?
> Install
>
>
> Now here's where the fun begins (and beginners GIVE UP) (if they haven't already)
>
> - Dialog appears... you don't have Python  ?  What?  I want Csound?
> but it says.... you can keep installing...
>
> great.
>
> Keep installing
>
> then... what do I click on to run Csound - why not try csound....
>
> NOPE...   doesn't run without Python...
>
> Then why the @!!@$#@%$#@!#  did you let me install it if it won't run without python?
>
>
> Maybe it does...
>
> Now to find Python?
>
> And this is not easy... there are dozens of versions of Python...  I downloaded 6 or 7
> Finally, one installed... (time is passing... no C sound .... no sound....
>
> OK.
>
> Python is installed - not even sure what version - just whatever one would install...
>
> OK...
>
> Then... install Csound again.
>
> Hum??? Should I uninstall first to be on the safe side?
> Did I install 2 versions or one over the other?
>
> OK....
>
> install Csound float
>
> YEAH... no dialog box complaining about Python... (maybe I got it)
>
> (((( Has it almost taken you 1 hour to read this email yet)))))  - because I do know how cool Csound is.... I do know it's worth it.... but....
> I am about ready to give up...
>
> Why?
>
> Welll ... in the csound folder is csound, winsound, csound5gui, blah blah blh.. - which door to I chose?
>
> I chose Csound... makes sense,,,  I am installing Csound...
>
> terminal appears.... some text wizzes by.... terminal disappears.!
>
> OK... I try winSound....
>
> - it doesn't make any sound?  it needs an orc or sco and there are none to be found - and how would a beginner know that he needed them?
>
> And forget navigating to a folder - uuuuggggghhhh I can't find the desktop at alll....
>
> OK... so I try  csound5gui... oh this is a little better ... looks like a transport here and an editor....
>
> BUT where are the orchestras?
>
> So.... NO SOUND..... well... in my mind Csound is the most amazing synth... but not in my speakers!
>
> So....  I had heard that QuteSound was the way to work with Csound....
>
> launch the version I installed
>
> NOPE... seems I installed the double version of QuteCsound - and (and why has it got the name Csound in it ... if there is NO Csound in it...
> It's a cute launcher, quteHost... QuteWrapper  ????
>
> Just confused....
>
> So, I install another version o QuteCsound - and
>
> It launches - AMAZING...
>
> but where is the sound????
>
> Oh wait there is a menu - with examples....  - I go to one, I select it... I push on the transport...
>
> NOPE - wrong Audio Driver  Wrong Hardware Setup....
>
> I choose the right hardware setup
>
> I click on the transport................
>
>
> Sound!!!!!! SOUND!!!!!!  (CRAPPY CRAPPPYYYYYY  CRAPPPPPPPY sound - because this is a PC laptop my brother gave me - (I'm a mac guy you see)
> AN Expert actually
>
> And I am setting it up for him.....  he's taking this class at Berklee with the Dr. B.  guy....
>
> Well.... How would I know, as a beginner... to get rid of all that chatter and breakup in the audio, I would need to set the -B and -b and check the boxes so that
> it uses the large number????
>
>
> I am happy now.... It took  ME more than 2 hours....  no lie... .....
>
> It might take you less... and if you are lucky and you choose wisely...
> (True...I am a bit sleepy.... I have been working 18-20 hours per day on The Audio Programming Book - which I am delivering to MIT Press in 10 days (waiting for the foreword from Max Mathews - and tweeking things here and there........  and it's AMAZING!!!!! -
> with a lot of Csound in there too!  - plus..... MusicV (a working version for all platforms! - a gift from Max Mathews)
> plus  (cmusic - workin version for all platforms!  a gift from F. Richard Moore) .... and of course.....
>
> And by the way..........  when I get it running..........  Where are the cool sounds!
>
> I know where they are - the Csound Catalog, cSounds.com, Csound Book, Csound Journal, etc.... but.... will a beginner know where to go... and what to do....
>
> after ALL this, I am afraid that a PRO - a colleage from Berklee let's say.... blows off his family time on Sunday night - and after 2 hours....
> Toot 1 - a sine wave........................
>
> Sorry...
>
> EMPTY TRASH
>
> UNINSTALL
>
> MOVE ON....
>
> -dB
>
> a "nightmare to install for beginners" (or PROFESSIONALS especially) version of Csound5 for Windows!!  uuuuuugggggggghhhhhhhh
>
>
>
>
>
> On Jul 2, 2009, at 7:10 PM, DavidW wrote:
>
>> Fran,
>> I am pleased that you don't have problems doing an install that suits you. And that you enjoy using it.
>> Thus, the difficulties we are discussing need not concern you.
>>
>> Bbuild difficulties and usage difficulties are different - I think it is best not to confuse them.
>>
>> D
>> On 03/07/2009, at 8:55 AM, francibal wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Dear all,
>>> I'm a beginner, and i have no knowledge in programming, but i work with a pc
>>> windows (xp-vista),
>>> and i never had problems. I have installed many different versions, and both
>>> float and double, and many times i have disinstalled and again, but always
>>> it were all ok. And i'm not so able with a pc.
>>> Csound is not so easy at begin, but with a little bit (and with a great help
>>> from You), one can understand how to work. A new frontend would be really a
>>> pleasure. I use scite(!), and i'm studying emacs
>>> (thanks Mr Rollandin!), and for me it is sufficient. Maybe more experienced
>>> users, like most of You, have some differents problems, I suppose.
>>>
>>> Only for report, from a lovers of csound,
>>>
>>> ciao, and thanks for all,
>>>
>>> fran.
>>> --View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Score-Alignment-Utility-tp24227460p24315191.html
>>> Sent from the Csound - General mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@... with body "unsubscribe csound"
>>
>> ________________________________________________
>> David Worrall.
>> - Experimental Polymedia:      worrall.avatar.com.au
>> - Sonification: www.sonifiction.com.au
>> - Education for Financial Independence: www.mindthemarkets.com.au
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@... with body "unsubscribe csound"
>
>
>
> Send bugs reports to this list.
> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@... with body "unsubscribe csound"

Send bugs reports to this list.
To unsubscribe, send email sympa@... with body "unsubscribe csound"



     


Send bugs reports to this list.
To unsubscribe, send email sympa@... with body "unsubscribe csound"

[csounder]

Mark,

Thanks for this suggestion and reminder.  Back in the day, we had a  
beginners menu at cSounds.com that had links to a nice set of basics...
Still not sure there was a simple windows build, but... it was helpful  
for sure - I will work at remaking that page again...

-dB

Dr. Richard Boulanger  -  rboulanger@...



On Jul 6, 2009, at 9:43 AM, mark jamerson wrote:

>
>
>
>      As a relatively recent (a few years) beginner to the realm of  
> Csound, I would like to make a suggestion regarding the csounds.com  
> website issue that Dr. B brings up.  I agree with his discovery that  
> the first page is not exactly aimed at the beginner. I think it  
> might help to have some sort of "Get Started With Csound" link that  
> is highly visible.  The link would then go to a page that has links  
> to one version of Csound for each OS, and one version of Python.  I  
> think we should restrict the beginner's choice as much as possible.  
> Take out the choice of float or double, and let them make that  
> choice when they are more familiar with the world of csound.  I also  
> think that the Csound we offer to beginner's should be the core  
> Csound that has recently been discussed( This could also eliminate  
> the need for python) .  Something like a demo version, with a note  
> telling the beginner that they can get more out of Csound later if  
> they choose.  I also think
> the beginner version of Csound should include QuteCsound (The  
> appropriate version to match the only Csound we offer them).  I only  
> recently checked out QuteCsound, and I think it is highly accessible  
> and user-friendly.  I never found that with winsound or csound5gui,  
> and wound up using WinXound instead.
>
>      Basically my main point is that I think we need to create a  
> portal for the beginners to be funnelled through that is limited in  
> scope so as not to confuse them in the beginning.
>
>                                                Mark
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Dr. Richard Boulanger <richardboulanger@...>
> To: csound@...
> Sent: Sunday, July 5, 2009 11:07:59 PM
> Subject: [Csnd] Re: WE Desperately NEED a Simple Installer/Build for  
> Windowswith QuteCsound (was: Building Python API
>
> OK.
>
> On a clean XP machine, I tried to be a new user and get the latest  
> version of Csound running.
>
> So... like a pro who doesn't know, but hears it's the bomb....
>
> After an hour of trial and error, and hunt and hope, i finally got  
> it running!  (with QuteCsound as the frontEnd)
>
> No way would a beginner (or worse - a seasoned pro - put up with this)
>
> Here's what happens
>
> Go to cSounds.com to find *almost everything Csound*
>
> First thing in the news is QuteCsound.
> ? what's that ?  Not sure I want something that's Cute?  I want to  
> make some serious BEATS!!!!  MAN....
> But OK... maybe they call Csound Cute Csound now....
>
> Go to download
>
> Hummmm... there are 2 versions  Double and Float???  Hummmm
> - I use Logic Pro and Ableton Live and Audacity - and they have  
> never asked me about double or float.
>
> OK - I will download both
>
> I will install one - doesn't work - not too cute
> I install the other - oesn't work - not cute at ALL...
>
> But wait... Back to cSounds.com... Oh.. there's a download tab/link,,,
>
> Ah..  here I find Canonical Csound5 - ALL PLATFORMS
> - cool, but what does canonical mean? build in echo?  No commercial  
> software uses this term - and I have EVERY commercial program on my  
> PC!
> (i even paid for 1 of them)
>
> Csound Page at Sourceforge - what?  what's sourceforge..
>
> OK... I go....
>
>
> Download the latest Csound5.10 for Windows  (a binary?  what's  
> that?  I never got the Reason 4.0 *binary*
>
> Worse... again 4 versions  5.9, 5,10 f, d, huh?
>
> - but which version float or double?
> Install
>
>
> Now here's where the fun begins (and beginners GIVE UP) (if they  
> haven't already)
>
> - Dialog appears... you don't have Python  ?  What?  I want Csound?
> but it says.... you can keep installing...
>
> great.
>
> Keep installing
>
> then... what do I click on to run Csound - why not try csound....
>
> NOPE...   doesn't run without Python...
>
> Then why the @!!@$#@%$#@!#  did you let me install it if it won't  
> run without python?
>
>
> Maybe it does...
>
> Now to find Python?
>
> And this is not easy... there are dozens of versions of Python...  I  
> downloaded 6 or 7
> Finally, one installed... (time is passing... no C sound .... no  
> sound....
>
> OK.
>
> Python is installed - not even sure what version - just whatever one  
> would install...
>
> OK...
>
> Then... install Csound again.
>
> Hum??? Should I uninstall first to be on the safe side?
> Did I install 2 versions or one over the other?
>
> OK....
>
> install Csound float
>
> YEAH... no dialog box complaining about Python... (maybe I got it)
>
> (((( Has it almost taken you 1 hour to read this email yet)))))  -  
> because I do know how cool Csound is.... I do know it's worth it....  
> but....
> I am about ready to give up...
>
> Why?
>
> Welll ... in the csound folder is csound, winsound, csound5gui, blah  
> blah blh.. - which door to I chose?
>
> I chose Csound... makes sense,,,  I am installing Csound...
>
> terminal appears.... some text wizzes by.... terminal disappears.!
>
> OK... I try winSound....
>
> - it doesn't make any sound?  it needs an orc or sco and there are  
> none to be found - and how would a beginner know that he needed them?
>
> And forget navigating to a folder - uuuuggggghhhh I can't find the  
> desktop at alll....
>
> OK... so I try  csound5gui... oh this is a little better ... looks  
> like a transport here and an editor....
>
> BUT where are the orchestras?
>
> So.... NO SOUND..... well... in my mind Csound is the most amazing  
> synth... but not in my speakers!
>
> So....  I had heard that QuteSound was the way to work with Csound....
>
> launch the version I installed
>
> NOPE... seems I installed the double version of QuteCsound - and  
> (and why has it got the name Csound in it ... if there is NO Csound  
> in it...
> It's a cute launcher, quteHost... QuteWrapper  ????
>
> Just confused....
>
> So, I install another version o QuteCsound - and
>
> It launches - AMAZING...
>
> but where is the sound????
>
> Oh wait there is a menu - with examples....  - I go to one, I select  
> it... I push on the transport...
>
> NOPE - wrong Audio Driver  Wrong Hardware Setup....
>
> I choose the right hardware setup
>
> I click on the transport................
>
>
> Sound!!!!!! SOUND!!!!!!  (CRAPPY CRAPPPYYYYYY  CRAPPPPPPPY sound -  
> because this is a PC laptop my brother gave me - (I'm a mac guy you  
> see)
> AN Expert actually
>
> And I am setting it up for him.....  he's taking this class at  
> Berklee with the Dr. B.  guy....
>
> Well.... How would I know, as a beginner... to get rid of all that  
> chatter and breakup in the audio, I would need to set the -B and -b  
> and check the boxes so that
> it uses the large number????
>
>
> I am happy now.... It took  ME more than 2 hours....  no lie... .....
>
> It might take you less... and if you are lucky and you choose  
> wisely...
> (True...I am a bit sleepy.... I have been working 18-20 hours per  
> day on The Audio Programming Book - which I am delivering to MIT  
> Press in 10 days (waiting for the foreword from Max Mathews - and  
> tweeking things here and there........  and it's AMAZING!!!!! -
> with a lot of Csound in there too!  - plus..... MusicV (a working  
> version for all platforms! - a gift from Max Mathews)
> plus  (cmusic - workin version for all platforms!  a gift from F.  
> Richard Moore) .... and of course.....
>
> And by the way..........  when I get it running..........  Where are  
> the cool sounds!
>
> I know where they are - the Csound Catalog, cSounds.com, Csound  
> Book, Csound Journal, etc.... but.... will a beginner know where to  
> go... and what to do....
>
> after ALL this, I am afraid that a PRO - a colleage from Berklee  
> let's say.... blows off his family time on Sunday night - and after  
> 2 hours....
> Toot 1 - a sine wave........................
>
> Sorry...
>
> EMPTY TRASH
>
> UNINSTALL
>
> MOVE ON....
>
> -dB
>
> a "nightmare to install for beginners" (or PROFESSIONALS especially)  
> version of Csound5 for Windows!!  uuuuuugggggggghhhhhhhh
>
>
>
>
>
> On Jul 2, 2009, at 7:10 PM, DavidW wrote:
>
>> Fran,
>> I am pleased that you don't have problems doing an install that  
>> suits you. And that you enjoy using it.
>> Thus, the difficulties we are discussing need not concern you.
>>
>> Bbuild difficulties and usage difficulties are different - I think  
>> it is best not to confuse them.
>>
>> D
>> On 03/07/2009, at 8:55 AM, francibal wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Dear all,
>>> I'm a beginner, and i have no knowledge in programming, but i work  
>>> with a pc
>>> windows (xp-vista),
>>> and i never had problems. I have installed many different  
>>> versions, and both
>>> float and double, and many times i have disinstalled and again,  
>>> but always
>>> it were all ok. And i'm not so able with a pc.
>>> Csound is not so easy at begin, but with a little bit (and with a  
>>> great help
>>> from You), one can understand how to work. A new frontend would be  
>>> really a
>>> pleasure. I use scite(!), and i'm studying emacs
>>> (thanks Mr Rollandin!), and for me it is sufficient. Maybe more  
>>> experienced
>>> users, like most of You, have some differents problems, I suppose.
>>>
>>> Only for report, from a lovers of csound,
>>>
>>> ciao, and thanks for all,
>>>
>>> fran.
>>> --View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Score-Alignment-Utility-tp24227460p24315191.html
>>> Sent from the Csound - General mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@... with body  
>>> "unsubscribe csound"
>>
>> ________________________________________________
>> David Worrall.
>> - Experimental Polymedia:      worrall.avatar.com.au
>> - Sonification: www.sonifiction.com.au
>> - Education for Financial Independence: www.mindthemarkets.com.au
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@... with body  
>> "unsubscribe csound"
>
>
>
> Send bugs reports to this list.
> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@... with body  
> "unsubscribe csound"
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Send bugs reports to this list.
> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@... with body  
> "unsubscribe csound"

Send bugs reports to this list.
To unsubscribe, send email sympa@... with body "unsubscribe csound"

[Aidan Collins]

just a thought,
and sorry if it's impractical, I'm not a developer by any means.....

but would it be possible to make an "installation wizard" of the
annoying sort prevalent in older Windows OS's?

Something that would walk you through the various variables and paths
that would need to be set by asking you a series of questions? That
way you wouldn't have to make an installer that could figure out these
things for itself, just know enough to ask the right questions....
For example, "what audio output device do you want to use?" "where is
importantlibrary.lib?" etc. etc.


A

On Mon, Jul 6, 2009 at 1:56 PM, Dr. Richard
Boulanger<rboulanger@...> wrote:

> Mark,
>
> Thanks for this suggestion and reminder.  Back in the day, we had a
> beginners menu at cSounds.com that had links to a nice set of basics...
> Still not sure there was a simple windows build, but... it was helpful for
> sure - I will work at remaking that page again...
>
> -dB
>
> Dr. Richard Boulanger  -  rboulanger@...
>
>
>
> On Jul 6, 2009, at 9:43 AM, mark jamerson wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>>     As a relatively recent (a few years) beginner to the realm of Csound,
>> I would like to make a suggestion regarding the csounds.com website issue
>> that Dr. B brings up.  I agree with his discovery that the first page is not
>> exactly aimed at the beginner. I think it might help to have some sort of
>> "Get Started With Csound" link that is highly visible.  The link would then
>> go to a page that has links to one version of Csound for each OS, and one
>> version of Python.  I think we should restrict the beginner's choice as much
>> as possible.  Take out the choice of float or double, and let them make that
>> choice when they are more familiar with the world of csound.  I also think
>> that the Csound we offer to beginner's should be the core Csound that has
>> recently been discussed( This could also eliminate the need for python) .
>>  Something like a demo version, with a note telling the beginner that they
>> can get more out of Csound later if they choose.  I also think
>> the beginner version of Csound should include QuteCsound (The appropriate
>> version to match the only Csound we offer them).  I only recently checked
>> out QuteCsound, and I think it is highly accessible and user-friendly.  I
>> never found that with winsound or csound5gui, and wound up using WinXound
>> instead.
>>
>>     Basically my main point is that I think we need to create a portal for
>> the beginners to be funnelled through that is limited in scope so as not to
>> confuse them in the beginning.
>>
>>                                               Mark
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----
>> From: Dr. Richard Boulanger <richardboulanger@...>
>> To: csound@...
>> Sent: Sunday, July 5, 2009 11:07:59 PM
>> Subject: [Csnd] Re: WE Desperately NEED a Simple Installer/Build for
>> Windowswith QuteCsound (was: Building Python API
>>
>> OK.
>>
>> On a clean XP machine, I tried to be a new user and get the latest version
>> of Csound running.
>>
>> So... like a pro who doesn't know, but hears it's the bomb....
>>
>> After an hour of trial and error, and hunt and hope, i finally got it
>> running!  (with QuteCsound as the frontEnd)
>>
>> No way would a beginner (or worse - a seasoned pro - put up with this)
>>
>> Here's what happens
>>
>> Go to cSounds.com to find *almost everything Csound*
>>
>> First thing in the news is QuteCsound.
>> ? what's that ?  Not sure I want something that's Cute?  I want to make
>> some serious BEATS!!!!  MAN....
>> But OK... maybe they call Csound Cute Csound now....
>>
>> Go to download
>>
>> Hummmm... there are 2 versions  Double and Float???  Hummmm
>> - I use Logic Pro and Ableton Live and Audacity - and they have never
>> asked me about double or float.
>>
>> OK - I will download both
>>
>> I will install one - doesn't work - not too cute
>> I install the other - oesn't work - not cute at ALL...
>>
>> But wait... Back to cSounds.com... Oh.. there's a download tab/link,,,
>>
>> Ah..  here I find Canonical Csound5 - ALL PLATFORMS
>> - cool, but what does canonical mean? build in echo?  No commercial
>> software uses this term - and I have EVERY commercial program on my PC!
>> (i even paid for 1 of them)
>>
>> Csound Page at Sourceforge - what?  what's sourceforge..
>>
>> OK... I go....
>>
>>
>> Download the latest Csound5.10 for Windows  (a binary?  what's that?  I
>> never got the Reason 4.0 *binary*
>>
>> Worse... again 4 versions  5.9, 5,10 f, d, huh?
>>
>> - but which version float or double?
>> Install
>>
>>
>> Now here's where the fun begins (and beginners GIVE UP) (if they haven't
>> already)
>>
>> - Dialog appears... you don't have Python  ?  What?  I want Csound?
>> but it says.... you can keep installing...
>>
>> great.
>>
>> Keep installing
>>
>> then... what do I click on to run Csound - why not try csound....
>>
>> NOPE...   doesn't run without Python...
>>
>> Then why the @!!@$#@%$#@!#  did you let me install it if it won't run
>> without python?
>>
>>
>> Maybe it does...
>>
>> Now to find Python?
>>
>> And this is not easy... there are dozens of versions of Python...  I
>> downloaded 6 or 7
>> Finally, one installed... (time is passing... no C sound .... no sound....
>>
>> OK.
>>
>> Python is installed - not even sure what version - just whatever one would
>> install...
>>
>> OK...
>>
>> Then... install Csound again.
>>
>> Hum??? Should I uninstall first to be on the safe side?
>> Did I install 2 versions or one over the other?
>>
>> OK....
>>
>> install Csound float
>>
>> YEAH... no dialog box complaining about Python... (maybe I got it)
>>
>> (((( Has it almost taken you 1 hour to read this email yet)))))  - because
>> I do know how cool Csound is.... I do know it's worth it.... but....
>> I am about ready to give up...
>>
>> Why?
>>
>> Welll ... in the csound folder is csound, winsound, csound5gui, blah blah
>> blh.. - which door to I chose?
>>
>> I chose Csound... makes sense,,,  I am installing Csound...
>>
>> terminal appears.... some text wizzes by.... terminal disappears.!
>>
>> OK... I try winSound....
>>
>> - it doesn't make any sound?  it needs an orc or sco and there are none to
>> be found - and how would a beginner know that he needed them?
>>
>> And forget navigating to a folder - uuuuggggghhhh I can't find the desktop
>> at alll....
>>
>> OK... so I try  csound5gui... oh this is a little better ... looks like a
>> transport here and an editor....
>>
>> BUT where are the orchestras?
>>
>> So.... NO SOUND..... well... in my mind Csound is the most amazing
>> synth... but not in my speakers!
>>
>> So....  I had heard that QuteSound was the way to work with Csound....
>>
>> launch the version I installed
>>
>> NOPE... seems I installed the double version of QuteCsound - and (and why
>> has it got the name Csound in it ... if there is NO Csound in it...
>> It's a cute launcher, quteHost... QuteWrapper  ????
>>
>> Just confused....
>>
>> So, I install another version o QuteCsound - and
>>
>> It launches - AMAZING...
>>
>> but where is the sound????
>>
>> Oh wait there is a menu - with examples....  - I go to one, I select it...
>> I push on the transport...
>>
>> NOPE - wrong Audio Driver  Wrong Hardware Setup....
>>
>> I choose the right hardware setup
>>
>> I click on the transport................
>>
>>
>> Sound!!!!!! SOUND!!!!!!  (CRAPPY CRAPPPYYYYYY  CRAPPPPPPPY sound - because
>> this is a PC laptop my brother gave me - (I'm a mac guy you see)
>> AN Expert actually
>>
>> And I am setting it up for him.....  he's taking this class at Berklee
>> with the Dr. B.  guy....
>>
>> Well.... How would I know, as a beginner... to get rid of all that chatter
>> and breakup in the audio, I would need to set the -B and -b and check the
>> boxes so that
>> it uses the large number????
>>
>>
>> I am happy now.... It took  ME more than 2 hours....  no lie... .....
>>
>> It might take you less... and if you are lucky and you choose wisely...
>> (True...I am a bit sleepy.... I have been working 18-20 hours per day on
>> The Audio Programming Book - which I am delivering to MIT Press in 10 days
>> (waiting for the foreword from Max Mathews - and tweeking things here and
>> there........  and it's AMAZING!!!!! -
>> with a lot of Csound in there too!  - plus..... MusicV (a working version
>> for all platforms! - a gift from Max Mathews)
>> plus  (cmusic - workin version for all platforms!  a gift from F. Richard
>> Moore) .... and of course.....
>>
>> And by the way..........  when I get it running..........  Where are the
>> cool sounds!
>>
>> I know where they are - the Csound Catalog, cSounds.com, Csound Book,
>> Csound Journal, etc.... but.... will a beginner know where to go... and what
>> to do....
>>
>> after ALL this, I am afraid that a PRO - a colleage from Berklee let's
>> say.... blows off his family time on Sunday night - and after 2 hours....
>> Toot 1 - a sine wave........................
>>
>> Sorry...
>>
>> EMPTY TRASH
>>
>> UNINSTALL
>>
>> MOVE ON....
>>
>> -dB
>>
>> a "nightmare to install for beginners" (or PROFESSIONALS especially)
>> version of Csound5 for Windows!!  uuuuuugggggggghhhhhhhh
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Jul 2, 2009, at 7:10 PM, DavidW wrote:
>>
>>> Fran,
>>> I am pleased that you don't have problems doing an install that suits
>>> you. And that you enjoy using it.
>>> Thus, the difficulties we are discussing need not concern you.
>>>
>>> Bbuild difficulties and usage difficulties are different - I think it is
>>> best not to confuse them.
>>>
>>> D
>>> On 03/07/2009, at 8:55 AM, francibal wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Dear all,
>>>> I'm a beginner, and i have no knowledge in programming, but i work with
>>>> a pc
>>>> windows (xp-vista),
>>>> and i never had problems. I have installed many different versions, and
>>>> both
>>>> float and double, and many times i have disinstalled and again, but
>>>> always
>>>> it were all ok. And i'm not so able with a pc.
>>>> Csound is not so easy at begin, but with a little bit (and with a great
>>>> help
>>>> from You), one can understand how to work. A new frontend would be
>>>> really a
>>>> pleasure. I use scite(!), and i'm studying emacs
>>>> (thanks Mr Rollandin!), and for me it is sufficient. Maybe more
>>>> experienced
>>>> users, like most of You, have some differents problems, I suppose.
>>>>
>>>> Only for report, from a lovers of csound,
>>>>
>>>> ciao, and thanks for all,
>>>>
>>>> fran.
>>>> --View this message in context:
>>>> http://www.nabble.com/Score-Alignment-Utility-tp24227460p24315191.html
>>>> Sent from the Csound - General mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>>>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@... with body "unsubscribe
>>>> csound"
>>>
>>> ________________________________________________
>>> David Worrall.
>>> - Experimental Polymedia:      worrall.avatar.com.au
>>> - Sonification: www.sonifiction.com.au
>>> - Education for Financial Independence: www.mindthemarkets.com.au
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@... with body "unsubscribe
>>> csound"
>>
>>
>>
>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@... with body "unsubscribe
>> csound"
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@... with body "unsubscribe
>> csound"
>
>
>
> Send bugs reports to this list.
> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@... with body "unsubscribe
> csound"
>

Send bugs reports to this list.
To unsubscribe, send email sympa@... with body "unsubscribe csound"

[Michael Gogins-2]

This is indeed possible but I do not think the people who want a
better installer would find it satisfactory. That includes me.

What I have in mind right now is the current installer with some check
boxes for what parts of Csound you want to install. The default would
be the "core" version people are talking about, but you could enable
Python, Java, Lua, etc.

Regards,
Mike

On 7/6/09, Aidan Collins <mr.aidan.collins@...> wrote:

> just a thought,
> and sorry if it's impractical, I'm not a developer by any means.....
>
> but would it be possible to make an "installation wizard" of the
> annoying sort prevalent in older Windows OS's?
>
> Something that would walk you through the various variables and paths
> that would need to be set by asking you a series of questions? That
> way you wouldn't have to make an installer that could figure out these
> things for itself, just know enough to ask the right questions....
> For example, "what audio output device do you want to use?" "where is
> importantlibrary.lib?" etc. etc.
>
>
> A
>
> On Mon, Jul 6, 2009 at 1:56 PM, Dr. Richard
> Boulanger<rboulanger@...> wrote:
>> Mark,
>>
>> Thanks for this suggestion and reminder.  Back in the day, we had a
>> beginners menu at cSounds.com that had links to a nice set of basics...
>> Still not sure there was a simple windows build, but... it was helpful for
>> sure - I will work at remaking that page again...
>>
>> -dB
>>
>> Dr. Richard Boulanger  -  rboulanger@...
>>
>>
>>
>> On Jul 6, 2009, at 9:43 AM, mark jamerson wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>     As a relatively recent (a few years) beginner to the realm of Csound,
>>> I would like to make a suggestion regarding the csounds.com website issue
>>> that Dr. B brings up.  I agree with his discovery that the first page is
>>> not
>>> exactly aimed at the beginner. I think it might help to have some sort of
>>> "Get Started With Csound" link that is highly visible.  The link would
>>> then
>>> go to a page that has links to one version of Csound for each OS, and one
>>> version of Python.  I think we should restrict the beginner's choice as
>>> much
>>> as possible.  Take out the choice of float or double, and let them make
>>> that
>>> choice when they are more familiar with the world of csound.  I also
>>> think
>>> that the Csound we offer to beginner's should be the core Csound that has
>>> recently been discussed( This could also eliminate the need for python) .
>>>  Something like a demo version, with a note telling the beginner that
>>> they
>>> can get more out of Csound later if they choose.  I also think
>>> the beginner version of Csound should include QuteCsound (The appropriate
>>> version to match the only Csound we offer them).  I only recently checked
>>> out QuteCsound, and I think it is highly accessible and user-friendly.  I
>>> never found that with winsound or csound5gui, and wound up using WinXound
>>> instead.
>>>
>>>     Basically my main point is that I think we need to create a portal
>>> for
>>> the beginners to be funnelled through that is limited in scope so as not
>>> to
>>> confuse them in the beginning.
>>>
>>>                                               Mark
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----
>>> From: Dr. Richard Boulanger <richardboulanger@...>
>>> To: csound@...
>>> Sent: Sunday, July 5, 2009 11:07:59 PM
>>> Subject: [Csnd] Re: WE Desperately NEED a Simple Installer/Build for
>>> Windowswith QuteCsound (was: Building Python API
>>>
>>> OK.
>>>
>>> On a clean XP machine, I tried to be a new user and get the latest
>>> version
>>> of Csound running.
>>>
>>> So... like a pro who doesn't know, but hears it's the bomb....
>>>
>>> After an hour of trial and error, and hunt and hope, i finally got it
>>> running!  (with QuteCsound as the frontEnd)
>>>
>>> No way would a beginner (or worse - a seasoned pro - put up with this)
>>>
>>> Here's what happens
>>>
>>> Go to cSounds.com to find *almost everything Csound*
>>>
>>> First thing in the news is QuteCsound.
>>> ? what's that ?  Not sure I want something that's Cute?  I want to make
>>> some serious BEATS!!!!  MAN....
>>> But OK... maybe they call Csound Cute Csound now....
>>>
>>> Go to download
>>>
>>> Hummmm... there are 2 versions  Double and Float???  Hummmm
>>> - I use Logic Pro and Ableton Live and Audacity - and they have never
>>> asked me about double or float.
>>>
>>> OK - I will download both
>>>
>>> I will install one - doesn't work - not too cute
>>> I install the other - oesn't work - not cute at ALL...
>>>
>>> But wait... Back to cSounds.com... Oh.. there's a download tab/link,,,
>>>
>>> Ah..  here I find Canonical Csound5 - ALL PLATFORMS
>>> - cool, but what does canonical mean? build in echo?  No commercial
>>> software uses this term - and I have EVERY commercial program on my PC!
>>> (i even paid for 1 of them)
>>>
>>> Csound Page at Sourceforge - what?  what's sourceforge..
>>>
>>> OK... I go....
>>>
>>>
>>> Download the latest Csound5.10 for Windows  (a binary?  what's that?  I
>>> never got the Reason 4.0 *binary*
>>>
>>> Worse... again 4 versions  5.9, 5,10 f, d, huh?
>>>
>>> - but which version float or double?
>>> Install
>>>
>>>
>>> Now here's where the fun begins (and beginners GIVE UP) (if they haven't
>>> already)
>>>
>>> - Dialog appears... you don't have Python  ?  What?  I want Csound?
>>> but it says.... you can keep installing...
>>>
>>> great.
>>>
>>> Keep installing
>>>
>>> then... what do I click on to run Csound - why not try csound....
>>>
>>> NOPE...   doesn't run without Python...
>>>
>>> Then why the @!!@$#@%$#@!#  did you let me install it if it won't run
>>> without python?
>>>
>>>
>>> Maybe it does...
>>>
>>> Now to find Python?
>>>
>>> And this is not easy... there are dozens of versions of Python...  I
>>> downloaded 6 or 7
>>> Finally, one installed... (time is passing... no C sound .... no
>>> sound....
>>>
>>> OK.
>>>
>>> Python is installed - not even sure what version - just whatever one
>>> would
>>> install...
>>>
>>> OK...
>>>
>>> Then... install Csound again.
>>>
>>> Hum??? Should I uninstall first to be on the safe side?
>>> Did I install 2 versions or one over the other?
>>>
>>> OK....
>>>
>>> install Csound float
>>>
>>> YEAH... no dialog box complaining about Python... (maybe I got it)
>>>
>>> (((( Has it almost taken you 1 hour to read this email yet)))))  -
>>> because
>>> I do know how cool Csound is.... I do know it's worth it.... but....
>>> I am about ready to give up...
>>>
>>> Why?
>>>
>>> Welll ... in the csound folder is csound, winsound, csound5gui, blah blah
>>> blh.. - which door to I chose?
>>>
>>> I chose Csound... makes sense,,,  I am installing Csound...
>>>
>>> terminal appears.... some text wizzes by.... terminal disappears.!
>>>
>>> OK... I try winSound....
>>>
>>> - it doesn't make any sound?  it needs an orc or sco and there are none
>>> to
>>> be found - and how would a beginner know that he needed them?
>>>
>>> And forget navigating to a folder - uuuuggggghhhh I can't find the
>>> desktop
>>> at alll....
>>>
>>> OK... so I try  csound5gui... oh this is a little better ... looks like a
>>> transport here and an editor....
>>>
>>> BUT where are the orchestras?
>>>
>>> So.... NO SOUND..... well... in my mind Csound is the most amazing
>>> synth... but not in my speakers!
>>>
>>> So....  I had heard that QuteSound was the way to work with Csound....
>>>
>>> launch the version I installed
>>>
>>> NOPE... seems I installed the double version of QuteCsound - and (and why
>>> has it got the name Csound in it ... if there is NO Csound in it...
>>> It's a cute launcher, quteHost... QuteWrapper  ????
>>>
>>> Just confused....
>>>
>>> So, I install another version o QuteCsound - and
>>>
>>> It launches - AMAZING...
>>>
>>> but where is the sound????
>>>
>>> Oh wait there is a menu - with examples....  - I go to one, I select
>>> it...
>>> I push on the transport...
>>>
>>> NOPE - wrong Audio Driver  Wrong Hardware Setup....
>>>
>>> I choose the right hardware setup
>>>
>>> I click on the transport................
>>>
>>>
>>> Sound!!!!!! SOUND!!!!!!  (CRAPPY CRAPPPYYYYYY  CRAPPPPPPPY sound -
>>> because
>>> this is a PC laptop my brother gave me - (I'm a mac guy you see)
>>> AN Expert actually
>>>
>>> And I am setting it up for him.....  he's taking this class at Berklee
>>> with the Dr. B.  guy....
>>>
>>> Well.... How would I know, as a beginner... to get rid of all that
>>> chatter
>>> and breakup in the audio, I would need to set the -B and -b and check the
>>> boxes so that
>>> it uses the large number????
>>>
>>>
>>> I am happy now.... It took  ME more than 2 hours....  no lie... .....
>>>
>>> It might take you less... and if you are lucky and you choose wisely...
>>> (True...I am a bit sleepy.... I have been working 18-20 hours per day on
>>> The Audio Programming Book - which I am delivering to MIT Press in 10
>>> days
>>> (waiting for the foreword from Max Mathews - and tweeking things here and
>>> there........  and it's AMAZING!!!!! -
>>> with a lot of Csound in there too!  - plus..... MusicV (a working version
>>> for all platforms! - a gift from Max Mathews)
>>> plus  (cmusic - workin version for all platforms!  a gift from F. Richard
>>> Moore) .... and of course.....
>>>
>>> And by the way..........  when I get it running..........  Where are the
>>> cool sounds!
>>>
>>> I know where they are - the Csound Catalog, cSounds.com, Csound Book,
>>> Csound Journal, etc.... but.... will a beginner know where to go... and
>>> what
>>> to do....
>>>
>>> after ALL this, I am afraid that a PRO - a colleage from Berklee let's
>>> say.... blows off his family time on Sunday night - and after 2 hours....
>>> Toot 1 - a sine wave........................
>>>
>>> Sorry...
>>>
>>> EMPTY TRASH
>>>
>>> UNINSTALL
>>>
>>> MOVE ON....
>>>
>>> -dB
>>>
>>> a "nightmare to install for beginners" (or PROFESSIONALS especially)
>>> version of Csound5 for Windows!!  uuuuuugggggggghhhhhhhh
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Jul 2, 2009, at 7:10 PM, DavidW wrote:
>>>
>>>> Fran,
>>>> I am pleased that you don't have problems doing an install that suits
>>>> you. And that you enjoy using it.
>>>> Thus, the difficulties we are discussing need not concern you.
>>>>
>>>> Bbuild difficulties and usage difficulties are different - I think it is
>>>> best not to confuse them.
>>>>
>>>> D
>>>> On 03/07/2009, at 8:55 AM, francibal wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Dear all,
>>>>> I'm a beginner, and i have no knowledge in programming, but i work with
>>>>> a pc
>>>>> windows (xp-vista),
>>>>> and i never had problems. I have installed many different versions, and
>>>>> both
>>>>> float and double, and many times i have disinstalled and again, but
>>>>> always
>>>>> it were all ok. And i'm not so able with a pc.
>>>>> Csound is not so easy at begin, but with a little bit (and with a great
>>>>> help
>>>>> from You), one can understand how to work. A new frontend would be
>>>>> really a
>>>>> pleasure. I use scite(!), and i'm studying emacs
>>>>> (thanks Mr Rollandin!), and for me it is sufficient. Maybe more
>>>>> experienced
>>>>> users, like most of You, have some differents problems, I suppose.
>>>>>
>>>>> Only for report, from a lovers of csound,
>>>>>
>>>>> ciao, and thanks for all,
>>>>>
>>>>> fran.
>>>>> --View this message in context:
>>>>> http://www.nabble.com/Score-Alignment-Utility-tp24227460p24315191.html
>>>>> Sent from the Csound - General mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>>>>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@... with body
>>>>> "unsubscribe
>>>>> csound"
>>>>
>>>> ________________________________________________
>>>> David Worrall.
>>>> - Experimental Polymedia:      worrall.avatar.com.au
>>>> - Sonification: www.sonifiction.com.au
>>>> - Education for Financial Independence: www.mindthemarkets.com.au
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>>>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@... with body "unsubscribe
>>>> csound"
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Send bugs reports to this list.
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>>> csound"
>>
>>
>>
>> Send bugs reports to this list.
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>> csound"
>>
>
>
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> csound"

--
Michael Gogins
Irreducible Productions
http://www.michael-gogins.com
Michael dot Gogins at gmail dot com


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