Score Alignment Utility

[Stéphane Rollandin]

Michael Gogins a écrit :
> OK, no environment variables. Then Csound must search specific paths
> for plugin opcodes, samples, and so on.
>
> I would prefer this myself.

Wait.. this could be much better but also possibly much worse than
having environment variables. We should discuss this.

If specific paths were to be harcoded, they should definitely IMO be
relative to the binary location, and easily overriden via command flags
or the .csoundrc file.

I have a simple criterion: if one can easily install several running and
functional Csound instances at the same time, then I'm happy. This means
I can package Csound within Surmulot as I do today.

About environment variables, the only thing I have been asking for is a
plain zip file containing the same thing than the installer, just
without the installer, so that it does not mess up my system when I
extract it. At the moment I have to open any new csound distribution
into Virtualbox before I can get the file...


Stef



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[Dr. Richard Boulanger-4]

Sounds like a good (great) strategy.  Include QuteCsound as one of the  
options too.


Sent from my Arp 2600 ;-)


On Jul 6, 2009, at 3:38 PM, Michael Gogins <michael.gogins@...>  
wrote:

> This is indeed possible but I do not think the people who want a
> better installer would find it satisfactory. That includes me.
>
> What I have in mind right now is the current installer with some check
> boxes for what parts of Csound you want to install. The default would
> be the "core" version people are talking about, but you could enable
> Python, Java, Lua, etc.
>
> Regards,
> Mike
>
> On 7/6/09, Aidan Collins <mr.aidan.collins@...> wrote:
>> just a thought,
>> and sorry if it's impractical, I'm not a developer by any means.....
>>
>> but would it be possible to make an "installation wizard" of the
>> annoying sort prevalent in older Windows OS's?
>>
>> Something that would walk you through the various variables and paths
>> that would need to be set by asking you a series of questions? That
>> way you wouldn't have to make an installer that could figure out  
>> these
>> things for itself, just know enough to ask the right questions....
>> For example, "what audio output device do you want to use?" "where is
>> importantlibrary.lib?" etc. etc.
>>
>>
>> A
>>
>> On Mon, Jul 6, 2009 at 1:56 PM, Dr. Richard
>> Boulanger<rboulanger@...> wrote:
>>> Mark,
>>>
>>> Thanks for this suggestion and reminder.  Back in the day, we had a
>>> beginners menu at cSounds.com that had links to a nice set of  
>>> basics...
>>> Still not sure there was a simple windows build, but... it was  
>>> helpful for
>>> sure - I will work at remaking that page again...
>>>
>>> -dB
>>>
>>> Dr. Richard Boulanger  -  rboulanger@...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Jul 6, 2009, at 9:43 AM, mark jamerson wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>     As a relatively recent (a few years) beginner to the realm of  
>>>> Csound,
>>>> I would like to make a suggestion regarding the csounds.com  
>>>> website issue
>>>> that Dr. B brings up.  I agree with his discovery that the first  
>>>> page is
>>>> not
>>>> exactly aimed at the beginner. I think it might help to have some  
>>>> sort of
>>>> "Get Started With Csound" link that is highly visible.  The link  
>>>> would
>>>> then
>>>> go to a page that has links to one version of Csound for each OS,  
>>>> and one
>>>> version of Python.  I think we should restrict the beginner's  
>>>> choice as
>>>> much
>>>> as possible.  Take out the choice of float or double, and let  
>>>> them make
>>>> that
>>>> choice when they are more familiar with the world of csound.  I  
>>>> also
>>>> think
>>>> that the Csound we offer to beginner's should be the core Csound  
>>>> that has
>>>> recently been discussed( This could also eliminate the need for  
>>>> python) .
>>>>  Something like a demo version, with a note telling the beginner  
>>>> that
>>>> they
>>>> can get more out of Csound later if they choose.  I also think
>>>> the beginner version of Csound should include QuteCsound (The  
>>>> appropriate
>>>> version to match the only Csound we offer them).  I only recently  
>>>> checked
>>>> out QuteCsound, and I think it is highly accessible and user-
>>>> friendly.  I
>>>> never found that with winsound or csound5gui, and wound up using  
>>>> WinXound
>>>> instead.
>>>>
>>>>     Basically my main point is that I think we need to create a  
>>>> portal
>>>> for
>>>> the beginners to be funnelled through that is limited in scope so  
>>>> as not
>>>> to
>>>> confuse them in the beginning.
>>>>
>>>>                                               Mark
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----
>>>> From: Dr. Richard Boulanger <richardboulanger@...>
>>>> To: csound@...
>>>> Sent: Sunday, July 5, 2009 11:07:59 PM
>>>> Subject: [Csnd] Re: WE Desperately NEED a Simple Installer/Build  
>>>> for
>>>> Windowswith QuteCsound (was: Building Python API
>>>>
>>>> OK.
>>>>
>>>> On a clean XP machine, I tried to be a new user and get the latest
>>>> version
>>>> of Csound running.
>>>>
>>>> So... like a pro who doesn't know, but hears it's the bomb....
>>>>
>>>> After an hour of trial and error, and hunt and hope, i finally  
>>>> got it
>>>> running!  (with QuteCsound as the frontEnd)
>>>>
>>>> No way would a beginner (or worse - a seasoned pro - put up with  
>>>> this)
>>>>
>>>> Here's what happens
>>>>
>>>> Go to cSounds.com to find *almost everything Csound*
>>>>
>>>> First thing in the news is QuteCsound.
>>>> ? what's that ?  Not sure I want something that's Cute?  I want  
>>>> to make
>>>> some serious BEATS!!!!  MAN....
>>>> But OK... maybe they call Csound Cute Csound now....
>>>>
>>>> Go to download
>>>>
>>>> Hummmm... there are 2 versions  Double and Float???  Hummmm
>>>> - I use Logic Pro and Ableton Live and Audacity - and they have  
>>>> never
>>>> asked me about double or float.
>>>>
>>>> OK - I will download both
>>>>
>>>> I will install one - doesn't work - not too cute
>>>> I install the other - oesn't work - not cute at ALL...
>>>>
>>>> But wait... Back to cSounds.com... Oh.. there's a download tab/
>>>> link,,,
>>>>
>>>> Ah..  here I find Canonical Csound5 - ALL PLATFORMS
>>>> - cool, but what does canonical mean? build in echo?  No commercial
>>>> software uses this term - and I have EVERY commercial program on  
>>>> my PC!
>>>> (i even paid for 1 of them)
>>>>
>>>> Csound Page at Sourceforge - what?  what's sourceforge..
>>>>
>>>> OK... I go....
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Download the latest Csound5.10 for Windows  (a binary?  what's  
>>>> that?  I
>>>> never got the Reason 4.0 *binary*
>>>>
>>>> Worse... again 4 versions  5.9, 5,10 f, d, huh?
>>>>
>>>> - but which version float or double?
>>>> Install
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Now here's where the fun begins (and beginners GIVE UP) (if they  
>>>> haven't
>>>> already)
>>>>
>>>> - Dialog appears... you don't have Python  ?  What?  I want Csound?
>>>> but it says.... you can keep installing...
>>>>
>>>> great.
>>>>
>>>> Keep installing
>>>>
>>>> then... what do I click on to run Csound - why not try csound....
>>>>
>>>> NOPE...   doesn't run without Python...
>>>>
>>>> Then why the @!!@$#@%$#@!#  did you let me install it if it won't  
>>>> run
>>>> without python?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Maybe it does...
>>>>
>>>> Now to find Python?
>>>>
>>>> And this is not easy... there are dozens of versions of  
>>>> Python...  I
>>>> downloaded 6 or 7
>>>> Finally, one installed... (time is passing... no C sound .... no
>>>> sound....
>>>>
>>>> OK.
>>>>
>>>> Python is installed - not even sure what version - just whatever  
>>>> one
>>>> would
>>>> install...
>>>>
>>>> OK...
>>>>
>>>> Then... install Csound again.
>>>>
>>>> Hum??? Should I uninstall first to be on the safe side?
>>>> Did I install 2 versions or one over the other?
>>>>
>>>> OK....
>>>>
>>>> install Csound float
>>>>
>>>> YEAH... no dialog box complaining about Python... (maybe I got it)
>>>>
>>>> (((( Has it almost taken you 1 hour to read this email yet)))))  -
>>>> because
>>>> I do know how cool Csound is.... I do know it's worth it....  
>>>> but....
>>>> I am about ready to give up...
>>>>
>>>> Why?
>>>>
>>>> Welll ... in the csound folder is csound, winsound, csound5gui,  
>>>> blah blah
>>>> blh.. - which door to I chose?
>>>>
>>>> I chose Csound... makes sense,,,  I am installing Csound...
>>>>
>>>> terminal appears.... some text wizzes by.... terminal disappears.!
>>>>
>>>> OK... I try winSound....
>>>>
>>>> - it doesn't make any sound?  it needs an orc or sco and there  
>>>> are none
>>>> to
>>>> be found - and how would a beginner know that he needed them?
>>>>
>>>> And forget navigating to a folder - uuuuggggghhhh I can't find the
>>>> desktop
>>>> at alll....
>>>>
>>>> OK... so I try  csound5gui... oh this is a little better ...  
>>>> looks like a
>>>> transport here and an editor....
>>>>
>>>> BUT where are the orchestras?
>>>>
>>>> So.... NO SOUND..... well... in my mind Csound is the most amazing
>>>> synth... but not in my speakers!
>>>>
>>>> So....  I had heard that QuteSound was the way to work with  
>>>> Csound....
>>>>
>>>> launch the version I installed
>>>>
>>>> NOPE... seems I installed the double version of QuteCsound - and  
>>>> (and why
>>>> has it got the name Csound in it ... if there is NO Csound in it...
>>>> It's a cute launcher, quteHost... QuteWrapper  ????
>>>>
>>>> Just confused....
>>>>
>>>> So, I install another version o QuteCsound - and
>>>>
>>>> It launches - AMAZING...
>>>>
>>>> but where is the sound????
>>>>
>>>> Oh wait there is a menu - with examples....  - I go to one, I  
>>>> select
>>>> it...
>>>> I push on the transport...
>>>>
>>>> NOPE - wrong Audio Driver  Wrong Hardware Setup....
>>>>
>>>> I choose the right hardware setup
>>>>
>>>> I click on the transport................
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sound!!!!!! SOUND!!!!!!  (CRAPPY CRAPPPYYYYYY  CRAPPPPPPPY sound -
>>>> because
>>>> this is a PC laptop my brother gave me - (I'm a mac guy you see)
>>>> AN Expert actually
>>>>
>>>> And I am setting it up for him.....  he's taking this class at  
>>>> Berklee
>>>> with the Dr. B.  guy....
>>>>
>>>> Well.... How would I know, as a beginner... to get rid of all that
>>>> chatter
>>>> and breakup in the audio, I would need to set the -B and -b and  
>>>> check the
>>>> boxes so that
>>>> it uses the large number????
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I am happy now.... It took  ME more than 2 hours....  no  
>>>> lie... .....
>>>>
>>>> It might take you less... and if you are lucky and you choose  
>>>> wisely...
>>>> (True...I am a bit sleepy.... I have been working 18-20 hours per  
>>>> day on
>>>> The Audio Programming Book - which I am delivering to MIT Press  
>>>> in 10
>>>> days
>>>> (waiting for the foreword from Max Mathews - and tweeking things  
>>>> here and
>>>> there........  and it's AMAZING!!!!! -
>>>> with a lot of Csound in there too!  - plus..... MusicV (a working  
>>>> version
>>>> for all platforms! - a gift from Max Mathews)
>>>> plus  (cmusic - workin version for all platforms!  a gift from F.  
>>>> Richard
>>>> Moore) .... and of course.....
>>>>
>>>> And by the way..........  when I get it running..........  Where  
>>>> are the
>>>> cool sounds!
>>>>
>>>> I know where they are - the Csound Catalog, cSounds.com, Csound  
>>>> Book,
>>>> Csound Journal, etc.... but.... will a beginner know where to  
>>>> go... and
>>>> what
>>>> to do....
>>>>
>>>> after ALL this, I am afraid that a PRO - a colleage from Berklee  
>>>> let's
>>>> say.... blows off his family time on Sunday night - and after 2  
>>>> hours....
>>>> Toot 1 - a sine wave........................
>>>>
>>>> Sorry...
>>>>
>>>> EMPTY TRASH
>>>>
>>>> UNINSTALL
>>>>
>>>> MOVE ON....
>>>>
>>>> -dB
>>>>
>>>> a "nightmare to install for beginners" (or PROFESSIONALS  
>>>> especially)
>>>> version of Csound5 for Windows!!  uuuuuugggggggghhhhhhhh
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Jul 2, 2009, at 7:10 PM, DavidW wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Fran,
>>>>> I am pleased that you don't have problems doing an install that  
>>>>> suits
>>>>> you. And that you enjoy using it.
>>>>> Thus, the difficulties we are discussing need not concern you.
>>>>>
>>>>> Bbuild difficulties and usage difficulties are different - I  
>>>>> think it is
>>>>> best not to confuse them.
>>>>>
>>>>> D
>>>>> On 03/07/2009, at 8:55 AM, francibal wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dear all,
>>>>>> I'm a beginner, and i have no knowledge in programming, but i  
>>>>>> work with
>>>>>> a pc
>>>>>> windows (xp-vista),
>>>>>> and i never had problems. I have installed many different  
>>>>>> versions, and
>>>>>> both
>>>>>> float and double, and many times i have disinstalled and again,  
>>>>>> but
>>>>>> always
>>>>>> it were all ok. And i'm not so able with a pc.
>>>>>> Csound is not so easy at begin, but with a little bit (and with  
>>>>>> a great
>>>>>> help
>>>>>> from You), one can understand how to work. A new frontend would  
>>>>>> be
>>>>>> really a
>>>>>> pleasure. I use scite(!), and i'm studying emacs
>>>>>> (thanks Mr Rollandin!), and for me it is sufficient. Maybe more
>>>>>> experienced
>>>>>> users, like most of You, have some differents problems, I  
>>>>>> suppose.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Only for report, from a lovers of csound,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ciao, and thanks for all,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> fran.
>>>>>> --View this message in context:
>>>>>> http://www.nabble.com/Score-Alignment-Utility-tp24227460p24315191.html
>>>>>> Sent from the Csound - General mailing list archive at  
>>>>>> Nabble.com.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@... with body
>>>>>> "unsubscribe
>>>>>> csound"
>>>>>
>>>>> ________________________________________________
>>>>> David Worrall.
>>>>> - Experimental Polymedia:      worrall.avatar.com.au
>>>>> - Sonification: www.sonifiction.com.au
>>>>> - Education for Financial Independence: www.mindthemarkets.com.au
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>>>>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@... with body  
>>>>> "unsubscribe
>>>>> csound"
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>>>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@... with body  
>>>> "unsubscribe
>>>> csound"
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>>>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@... with body  
>>>> "unsubscribe
>>>> csound"
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@... with body  
>>> "unsubscribe
>>> csound"
>>>
>>
>>
>> Send bugs reports to this list.
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>> "unsubscribe
>> csound"
>
>
> --
> Michael Gogins
> Irreducible Productions
> http://www.michael-gogins.com
> Michael dot Gogins at gmail dot com
>
>
> Send bugs reports to this list.
> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@... with body  
> "unsubscribe csound"

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[Felipe Sateler]

In Debian, we do not set any environment variables, because
OPCODEDIR64 is hardcoded to the installation path of the plugins (one
of the advantages of here, we don't have to guess were the plugins
will be installed). We only provide the double version of csound: my
tests suggest that doubles are faster on 64bit, and I prefer to
optimize for these computers (32bit will slowly go away).

I wouldn't personally bother with any other env var, their use cases
are limited (a default of . should be OK, ie search from the current
working directory).


I think that the easiest way to avoid most of all these problems for
begginers is to make a choice for them. A link "Get csound now!" which
points to a *single* binary for each platform would go a long way, as
suggested somewhere in this thread.

I would like to use the opportunity to ask Dr B to put in the download
page some information regarding packages for linux users. Debian and
Ubuntu users can get csound from the repositories, and I think Fedora
users too.

On 05/07/2009, Michael Gogins <michael.gogins@...> wrote:

> There are many environment variables. I think there should be a
> sensible default for each.
>
> Also, is there a Linux default for both 32 bit and 64 bit sample
> builds of Csound?
>
> Regards,
> Mike
>
> On 7/4/09, Felipe Sateler <fsateler@...> wrote:
> > Doesn't csound have a default path for all of the env variables? For
> > opcodes in linux there is...
> >
> > On 04/07/2009, Michael Gogins <michael.gogins@...> wrote:
> >> OK, no environment variables. Then Csound must search specific paths
> >> for plugin opcodes, samples, and so on.
> >>
> >> I would prefer this myself.
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >> Mike
> >>
> >> On 7/4/09, jpff <jpff@...> wrote:
> >> >>>>>> "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?St=E9phane" == =?ISO-8859-1?Q?St=E9phane
> >> >>>>>> Rollandin?=
> >> >>>>>> <lecteur@...> writes:
> >> >
> >> >  >> No environment variables; no installer; different versions of Csound
> >> > can
> >> >  >> coexist without problems.
> >> >
> >> >  =?ISO-8859-1?Q?St=E9phane> We have been asking for this for ages...
> >> >
> >> >  =?ISO-8859-1?Q?St=E9phane> Stef
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > So have I (re environment variables) .....
> >> >
> >> > ==John ffitch
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Send bugs reports to this list.
> >> > To unsubscribe, send email sympa@... with body "unsubscribe
> >> > csound"
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Michael Gogins
> >> Irreducible Productions
> >> http://www.michael-gogins.com
> >> Michael dot Gogins at gmail dot com
> >>
> >>
> >> Send bugs reports to this list.
> >> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@... with body "unsubscribe
> >> csound"
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > Saludos,
> > Felipe Sateler
> >
> >
> > Send bugs reports to this list.
> > To unsubscribe, send email sympa@... with body "unsubscribe
> > csound"
> >
>
>
> --
> Michael Gogins
> Irreducible Productions
> http://www.michael-gogins.com
> Michael dot Gogins at gmail dot com
>
>
> Send bugs reports to this list.
> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@... with body "unsubscribe csound"
>

--

Saludos,
Felipe Sateler


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[Mike Moser-Booth]

Julian Peterson wrote:
> Here's the reality of the situation: csound is a programming
> language.  It's a great programming language, one we're all devoted
> to, and one which we all rightfully believe is one of the most
> powerful ever imagined for music and sound production.
...
> csound will never be easy.
>
> Yours,
>
> Julian Peterson
>
First off, I just want to mention that this isn't directed to you
specifically, Julian, but I've seen similar arguments like this come up
with regards to the current discussion and would like to make a quick
response to them.

I don't think it's a good idea to just accept that Csound is hard, and
that's just the way it is. Of course Csound will never be *easy* per se,
but it could definitely be *easier*, and I think that's all that this
discussion is really about. Powerful programs lose their power if people
can't use them. The audience for Csound isn't--or at least shouldn't
be--just computer programmers. The audience is musicians. True, more
technically savvy musicians, but still musicians. Yes, the learning
curve is steep, but that curve could be leveed by simplifying those
aspects that have not business being difficult, such as musician
friendly terminology in the manual as Jason Adams suggested, accessible
tutorials for new users, a standard bundled frontend (QuteCsound) that
uses a modern interface (because seriously, hardly anyone uses the
commandline any more, especially Windows users), and an easy install.
Installing should not be part of the learning curve.

.mmb


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[David Worrall]

On 03/07/2009, at 12:14 PM, michael.gogins@... wrote:
> It is not appropriate for SCons
> to try to deduce the version of Python to use, precisely because  
> users may have
> more than one version of Python installed on their computer. There  
> is a Python version argument for SCons,
> and you can set specific PATH variables in your environment and other
> paths in your custom.py to match that version.
>
There is a python version argument for python so it must be there for  
SCons:
 >>> import sys; sys.executable
'/Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/2.5/Resources/
Python.app/Contents/MacOS/Python'

Each version of python has its own SCons, doesn't it? It does for me  
on OSX:
$ which python
/Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/Current/bin/python
$ which scons
/Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/Current/bin/scons

So if I wanted to compile csound for a particular installed version of  
python I would just reassign Current to that one, as per usual.

>> I know about frameworks and different versions of python, as I've  
>> said before. And I've probably been using PATH variables longer  
>> than many  on this list have been alive. But this doesn't solve the  
>> problem, as  I've said before. If  A, B, C etc need to be done as  
>> part of a  composition process and all the tools to do that except  
>> csound build  to install for (one reasonable/the latest version of)  
>> python, how does  having different versions available solve the  
>> problem? I do not accept  the argument that it is good practice for  
>> the whole world to revolve  around a particular version of python  
>> just because of csound. If the  world marches to a particular step  
>> and csound is not instep, then it  is csound, not the world. that  
>> is out-of-step.
>>
>>> It also, of course, is possible to simply throw out annoying  
>>> parts  of Csound, as Art Hunkins has so clearly explained.
>>>
>> As a user?
>
> That's what Art Hunkins did, isn't it?

I don't  know - I thought he was on OLPC so I didn't read in detail.  
In any event, "throwing out the annoying parts" implies that a user  
knows how to do that; implies a quite advanced knowledge of csound  
which it would not reasonable to expect of many users.

>
>>> In the meantime, be assured that I will make every reasonable  
>>> effort  to make the installer, and Csound, easier to use. More  
>>> information  about specific problems, including OS and Csound and  
>>> Python  versions, and screen shots of error messages, would be  
>>> most useful.
>>>
>> Thanks.
>
> You're welcome.

but see the error part of my post of today ([Csnd] more improvements:  
manual+errors)

>>> I am considering creating two installers, one with a "cut-down"  
>>> release of Csound, and one with all bells and whistles including  
>>> all  the language APIs. Then the installer with Python stuff  
>>> wouldn't  have to try to figure out what is what on the  
>>> installee's computer.
>>>
>>> I also will look into changing the build system to use Python  
>>> distutils to make the Python extension module, although I am not  
>>> sure that this will really be an improvement.
>>>
>> Lets discuss the options.
>
> Are you more concerned about building Csound, or about installing it?
>

I am more concerned with installing than building.
However, in the absence of an existing build that works for my setup  
I'm prepared to build, as I frequently do with lots of other stuff.
My argument is that, at least wrt the API, the ideal situation is that  
there should be very little difference, given the right tools and an  
environment-sensitive build script.


________________________________________________
David Worrall.
- Experimental Polymedia:  worrall.avatar.com.au
- Sonification: www.sonifiction.com.au
- Education for Financial Independence: www.mindthemarkets.com.au







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[Felipe Sateler]

The SConscript does guess the currently running python version(because
scons is run by python), and tries to find appropriate paths for it.
At least on linux.

On 07/07/2009, DavidW <vip@...> wrote:

>
> On 03/07/2009, at 12:14 PM, michael.gogins@... wrote:
> > It is not appropriate for SCons
> > to try to deduce the version of Python to use, precisely because users may
> have
> > more than one version of Python installed on their computer. There is a
> Python version argument for SCons,
> > and you can set specific PATH variables in your environment and other
> > paths in your custom.py to match that version.
> >
> >
> There is a python version argument for python so it must be there for SCons:
> >>> import sys; sys.executable
> '/Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/2.5/Resources/Python.app/Contents/MacOS/Python'
>
> Each version of python has its own SCons, doesn't it? It does for me on OSX:
> $ which python
> /Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/Current/bin/python
> $ which scons
> /Library/Frameworks/Python.framework/Versions/Current/bin/scons
>
> So if I wanted to compile csound for a particular installed version of
> python I would just reassign Current to that one, as per usual.
>
> >
> > > I know about frameworks and different versions of python, as I've said
> before. And I've probably been using PATH variables longer than many  on
> this list have been alive. But this doesn't solve the problem, as  I've said
> before. If  A, B, C etc need to be done as part of a  composition process
> and all the tools to do that except csound build  to install for (one
> reasonable/the latest version of) python, how does  having different
> versions available solve the problem? I do not accept  the argument that it
> is good practice for the whole world to revolve  around a particular version
> of python just because of csound. If the  world marches to a particular step
> and csound is not instep, then it  is csound, not the world. that is
> out-of-step.
> > >
> > >
> > > > It also, of course, is possible to simply throw out annoying parts  of
> Csound, as Art Hunkins has so clearly explained.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > As a user?
> > >
> >
> > That's what Art Hunkins did, isn't it?
> >
> I don't  know - I thought he was on OLPC so I didn't read in detail. In any
> event, "throwing out the annoying parts" implies that a user knows how to do
> that; implies a quite advanced knowledge of csound which it would not
> reasonable to expect of many users.
> >
> >
> > >
> > > > In the meantime, be assured that I will make every reasonable effort
> to make the installer, and Csound, easier to use. More information  about
> specific problems, including OS and Csound and Python  versions, and screen
> shots of error messages, would be most useful.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > Thanks.
> > >
> >
> > You're welcome.
> >
> but see the error part of my post of today ([Csnd] more improvements:
> manual+errors)
>
> >
> > >
> > > > I am considering creating two installers, one with a "cut-down"
> release of Csound, and one with all bells and whistles including all  the
> language APIs. Then the installer with Python stuff wouldn't  have to try to
> figure out what is what on the installee's computer.
> > > >
> > > > I also will look into changing the build system to use Python
> distutils to make the Python extension module, although I am not  sure that
> this will really be an improvement.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > Lets discuss the options.
> > >
> >
> > Are you more concerned about building Csound, or about installing it?
> >
> >
> I am more concerned with installing than building.
> However, in the absence of an existing build that works for my setup I'm
> prepared to build, as I frequently do with lots of other stuff.
> My argument is that, at least wrt the API, the ideal situation is that there
> should be very little difference, given the right tools and an
> environment-sensitive build script.
>
>
> ________________________________________________
> David Worrall.
> - Experimental Polymedia:         worrall.avatar.com.au
> - Sonification: www.sonifiction.com.au
> - Education for Financial Independence: www.mindthemarkets.com.au
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Send bugs reports to this list.
> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@... with body "unsubscribe
> csound"
>

--

Saludos,
Felipe Sateler


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[Mark Van Peteghem-2]

Stéphane Rollandin wrote:

> Michael Gogins a écrit :
>> OK, no environment variables. Then Csound must search specific paths
>> for plugin opcodes, samples, and so on.
>>
>> I would prefer this myself.
>
> Wait.. this could be much better but also possibly much worse than
> having environment variables. We should discuss this.
>
> If specific paths were to be harcoded, they should definitely IMO be
> relative to the binary location, and easily overriden via command
> flags or the .csoundrc file.

I don't think that this is a good idea, because people who make their
Program Files directory unwritable for security reasons, like I do,
wouldn't be able to modify the content of these folders without
switching to the administrator account. The approach that good
applications use nowadays, is putting all the stuff that should not be
modified after installation in the Program Files directory, and the rest
in a subdirectory of the home directory, which is writable, with the
bonus that files there can be made different per user. A similar
approach is used on Linux.

> I have a simple criterion: if one can easily install several running
> and functional Csound instances at the same time, then I'm happy. This
> means I can package Csound within Surmulot as I do today.

This could be solved by having a different directory with modifiable
stuff per version, which is not the case now. Many other applications
do, and will at installation time even look for configuration files of
older versions, and copy and/or adjust them for the new version. Maybe
we could also have a different one for float and double versions.

> About environment variables, the only thing I have been asking for is
> a plain zip file containing the same thing than the installer, just
> without the installer, so that it does not mess up my system when I
> extract it. At the moment I have to open any new csound distribution
> into Virtualbox before I can get the file...

I believe you can override the value of environment variables by
providing a .csoundrc file in the same directory, which overrides
settings in .csoundrc file in the home directory.

--
  Mark
  _________________________________________
  When you get lemons, you make lemonade.
  When you get hardware, you make software.



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[Stéphane Rollandin]

> Installing should not be part of the learning curve.

definitely.


Stef



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[Stéphane Rollandin]

> This could be solved by having a different directory with modifiable
> stuff per version, which is not the case now.

That would not be enough for me: my criterion lies in the possibility to
install simultaneously multiple identical version of Csound (and of
course, multiple different versions).

Stef



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[Stéphane Rollandin]

Felipe Sateler a écrit :
> (a default of . should be OK, ie search from the current
> working directory).

+1

Stef



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[Michael Gogins-2]

I agree with everything Felipe said.

I have long suggested that we do only double, no more float. There is
a speed advantage to float on some platforms, but it is not very big.

Regards,
Mike

On 7/6/09, Felipe Sateler <fsateler@...> wrote:

> In Debian, we do not set any environment variables, because
> OPCODEDIR64 is hardcoded to the installation path of the plugins (one
> of the advantages of here, we don't have to guess were the plugins
> will be installed). We only provide the double version of csound: my
> tests suggest that doubles are faster on 64bit, and I prefer to
> optimize for these computers (32bit will slowly go away).
>
> I wouldn't personally bother with any other env var, their use cases
> are limited (a default of . should be OK, ie search from the current
> working directory).
>
>
> I think that the easiest way to avoid most of all these problems for
> begginers is to make a choice for them. A link "Get csound now!" which
> points to a *single* binary for each platform would go a long way, as
> suggested somewhere in this thread.
>
> I would like to use the opportunity to ask Dr B to put in the download
> page some information regarding packages for linux users. Debian and
> Ubuntu users can get csound from the repositories, and I think Fedora
> users too.
>
> On 05/07/2009, Michael Gogins <michael.gogins@...> wrote:
>> There are many environment variables. I think there should be a
>> sensible default for each.
>>
>> Also, is there a Linux default for both 32 bit and 64 bit sample
>> builds of Csound?
>>
>> Regards,
>> Mike
>>
>> On 7/4/09, Felipe Sateler <fsateler@...> wrote:
>> > Doesn't csound have a default path for all of the env variables? For
>> > opcodes in linux there is...
>> >
>> > On 04/07/2009, Michael Gogins <michael.gogins@...> wrote:
>> >> OK, no environment variables. Then Csound must search specific paths
>> >> for plugin opcodes, samples, and so on.
>> >>
>> >> I would prefer this myself.
>> >>
>> >> Regards,
>> >> Mike
>> >>
>> >> On 7/4/09, jpff <jpff@...> wrote:
>> >> >>>>>> "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?St=E9phane" == =?ISO-8859-1?Q?St=E9phane
>> >> >>>>>> Rollandin?=
>> >> >>>>>> <lecteur@...> writes:
>> >> >
>> >> >  >> No environment variables; no installer; different versions of
>> >> > Csound
>> >> > can
>> >> >  >> coexist without problems.
>> >> >
>> >> >  =?ISO-8859-1?Q?St=E9phane> We have been asking for this for ages...
>> >> >
>> >> >  =?ISO-8859-1?Q?St=E9phane> Stef
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > So have I (re environment variables) .....
>> >> >
>> >> > ==John ffitch
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > Send bugs reports to this list.
>> >> > To unsubscribe, send email sympa@... with body
>> >> > "unsubscribe
>> >> > csound"
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> Michael Gogins
>> >> Irreducible Productions
>> >> http://www.michael-gogins.com
>> >> Michael dot Gogins at gmail dot com
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Send bugs reports to this list.
>> >> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@... with body
>> >> "unsubscribe
>> >> csound"
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> >
>> > Saludos,
>> > Felipe Sateler
>> >
>> >
>> > Send bugs reports to this list.
>> > To unsubscribe, send email sympa@... with body "unsubscribe
>> > csound"
>> >
>>
>>
>> --
>> Michael Gogins
>> Irreducible Productions
>> http://www.michael-gogins.com
>> Michael dot Gogins at gmail dot com
>>
>>
>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@... with body "unsubscribe
>> csound"
>>
>
>
> --
>
> Saludos,
> Felipe Sateler
>
>
> Send bugs reports to this list.
> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@... with body "unsubscribe
> csound"
>

--
Michael Gogins
Irreducible Productions
http://www.michael-gogins.com
Michael dot Gogins at gmail dot com


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[Mark Van Peteghem-2]

Stéphane Rollandin wrote:
>> This could be solved by having a different directory with modifiable
>> stuff per version, which is not the case now.
>
> That would not be enough for me: my criterion lies in the possibility
> to install simultaneously multiple identical version of Csound (and of
> course, multiple different versions).

I don't understand why you need that. You could just as well have a
directory that doesn't contain CSound, only your files and a .csoundrc
to specify particular options and run from there, and set the PATH
environment variable to the version of CSound that you want.

But maybe you have a separate computer that is not connected to the
Internet, like many musicians do, so security is not a problem there.
What I describe seems to be the standard practice.

--
  Mark
  _________________________________________
  When you get lemons, you make lemonade.
  When you get hardware, you make software.



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[Stéphane Rollandin]

> I don't understand why you need that. You could just as well have a
> directory that doesn't contain CSound, only your files and a .csoundrc
> to specify particular options and run from there, and set the PATH
> environment variable to the version of CSound that you want.

yes, I guess you are right... what I describe correspond to the way I do
things at the moment, so I know I am playing it safe.

Stef



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[csounder]

Felipe,

I love your idea -

Get Csound NOW... 1 link for each platform.

(happy to host those 1 link clean/simple/beginner versions at  
cSounds.com even... if this helps)

Please email me the info you want me to add, the exact info and links
you  would like me to add, about about the Linux versions at cSounds.com

-dB


On Jul 6, 2009, at 10:06 PM, Felipe Sateler wrote:

> In Debian, we do not set any environment variables, because
> OPCODEDIR64 is hardcoded to the installation path of the plugins (one
> of the advantages of here, we don't have to guess were the plugins
> will be installed). We only provide the double version of csound: my
> tests suggest that doubles are faster on 64bit, and I prefer to
> optimize for these computers (32bit will slowly go away).
>
> I wouldn't personally bother with any other env var, their use cases
> are limited (a default of . should be OK, ie search from the current
> working directory).
>
>
> I think that the easiest way to avoid most of all these problems for
> begginers is to make a choice for them. A link "Get csound now!" which
> points to a *single* binary for each platform would go a long way, as
> suggested somewhere in this thread.
>
> I would like to use the opportunity to ask Dr B to put in the download
> page some information regarding packages for linux users. Debian and
> Ubuntu users can get csound from the repositories, and I think Fedora
> users too.
>
> On 05/07/2009, Michael Gogins <michael.gogins@...> wrote:
>> There are many environment variables. I think there should be a
>> sensible default for each.
>>
>> Also, is there a Linux default for both 32 bit and 64 bit sample
>> builds of Csound?
>>
>> Regards,
>> Mike
>>
>> On 7/4/09, Felipe Sateler <fsateler@...> wrote:
>>> Doesn't csound have a default path for all of the env variables? For
>>> opcodes in linux there is...
>>>
>>> On 04/07/2009, Michael Gogins <michael.gogins@...> wrote:
>>>> OK, no environment variables. Then Csound must search specific  
>>>> paths
>>>> for plugin opcodes, samples, and so on.
>>>>
>>>> I would prefer this myself.
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Mike
>>>>
>>>> On 7/4/09, jpff <jpff@...> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?St=E9phane" == =?ISO-8859-1?Q?St=E9phane
>>>>>>>>>> Rollandin?=
>>>>>>>>>> <lecteur@...> writes:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> No environment variables; no installer; different versions of  
>>>>>>> Csound
>>>>> can
>>>>>>> coexist without problems.
>>>>>
>>>>> =?ISO-8859-1?Q?St=E9phane> We have been asking for this for  
>>>>> ages...
>>>>>
>>>>> =?ISO-8859-1?Q?St=E9phane> Stef
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> So have I (re environment variables) .....
>>>>>
>>>>> ==John ffitch
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>>>>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@... with body  
>>>>> "unsubscribe
>>>>> csound"
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Michael Gogins
>>>> Irreducible Productions
>>>> http://www.michael-gogins.com
>>>> Michael dot Gogins at gmail dot com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>>>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@... with body  
>>>> "unsubscribe
>>>> csound"
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Saludos,
>>> Felipe Sateler
>>>
>>>
>>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@... with body  
>>> "unsubscribe
>>> csound"
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Michael Gogins
>> Irreducible Productions
>> http://www.michael-gogins.com
>> Michael dot Gogins at gmail dot com
>>
>>
>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@... with body  
>> "unsubscribe csound"
>>
>
>
> --
>
> Saludos,
> Felipe Sateler
>
>
> Send bugs reports to this list.
> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@... with body  
> "unsubscribe csound"

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[Felipe Sateler]

For debian, a link to packages.debian.org/csound should suffice.
Similarly, for ubuntu a link to packages.ubuntu.com/csound is enough
too. I do not know a canonical address for fedora packages,
unfortunately.

Some wording like this should be good (I suck at this, so feel free to edit):

Linux users my be able to get the latest version of csound from their
distribution's repositories.

And then put a list of distributions with known canonical addresses.

Saludos,
Felipe Sateler



On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 13:25, Dr. Richard
Boulanger<rboulanger@...> wrote:

> Felipe,
>
> I love your idea -
>
> Get Csound NOW... 1 link for each platform.
>
> (happy to host those 1 link clean/simple/beginner versions at cSounds.com
> even... if this helps)
>
> Please email me the info you want me to add, the exact info and links
> you  would like me to add, about about the Linux versions at cSounds.com
>
> -dB
>
>
> On Jul 6, 2009, at 10:06 PM, Felipe Sateler wrote:
>
>> In Debian, we do not set any environment variables, because
>> OPCODEDIR64 is hardcoded to the installation path of the plugins (one
>> of the advantages of here, we don't have to guess were the plugins
>> will be installed). We only provide the double version of csound: my
>> tests suggest that doubles are faster on 64bit, and I prefer to
>> optimize for these computers (32bit will slowly go away).
>>
>> I wouldn't personally bother with any other env var, their use cases
>> are limited (a default of . should be OK, ie search from the current
>> working directory).
>>
>>
>> I think that the easiest way to avoid most of all these problems for
>> begginers is to make a choice for them. A link "Get csound now!" which
>> points to a *single* binary for each platform would go a long way, as
>> suggested somewhere in this thread.
>>
>> I would like to use the opportunity to ask Dr B to put in the download
>> page some information regarding packages for linux users. Debian and
>> Ubuntu users can get csound from the repositories, and I think Fedora
>> users too.
>>
>> On 05/07/2009, Michael Gogins <michael.gogins@...> wrote:
>>>
>>> There are many environment variables. I think there should be a
>>> sensible default for each.
>>>
>>> Also, is there a Linux default for both 32 bit and 64 bit sample
>>> builds of Csound?
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Mike
>>>
>>> On 7/4/09, Felipe Sateler <fsateler@...> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Doesn't csound have a default path for all of the env variables? For
>>>> opcodes in linux there is...
>>>>
>>>> On 04/07/2009, Michael Gogins <michael.gogins@...> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> OK, no environment variables. Then Csound must search specific paths
>>>>> for plugin opcodes, samples, and so on.
>>>>>
>>>>> I would prefer this myself.
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> Mike
>>>>>
>>>>> On 7/4/09, jpff <jpff@...> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?St=E9phane" == =?ISO-8859-1?Q?St=E9phane
>>>>>>>>>>> Rollandin?=
>>>>>>>>>>> <lecteur@...> writes:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> No environment variables; no installer; different versions of Csound
>>>>>>
>>>>>> can
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> coexist without problems.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> =?ISO-8859-1?Q?St=E9phane> We have been asking for this for ages...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> =?ISO-8859-1?Q?St=E9phane> Stef
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So have I (re environment variables) .....
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ==John ffitch
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@... with body
>>>>>> "unsubscribe
>>>>>> csound"
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Michael Gogins
>>>>> Irreducible Productions
>>>>> http://www.michael-gogins.com
>>>>> Michael dot Gogins at gmail dot com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>>>>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@... with body
>>>>> "unsubscribe
>>>>> csound"
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> Saludos,
>>>> Felipe Sateler
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>>>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@... with body "unsubscribe
>>>> csound"
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Michael Gogins
>>> Irreducible Productions
>>> http://www.michael-gogins.com
>>> Michael dot Gogins at gmail dot com
>>>
>>>
>>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@... with body "unsubscribe
>>> csound"
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Saludos,
>> Felipe Sateler
>>
>>
>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@... with body "unsubscribe
>> csound"
>
>
>
> Send bugs reports to this list.
> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@... with body "unsubscribe
> csound"
>

Send bugs reports to this list.
To unsubscribe, send email sympa@... with body "unsubscribe csound"

[Art Hunkins]

Right on, Rick!

Art Hunkins

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dr. Richard Boulanger" <richardboulanger@...>
To: <csound@...>
Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 12:07 AM
Subject: [PMX:####] [Csnd] Re: WE Desperately NEED a Simple Installer/Build
for Windowswith QuteCsound (was: Building Python API

> OK.
>
> On a clean XP machine, I tried to be a new user and get the latest
> version of Csound running.
>
> So... like a pro who doesn't know, but hears it's the bomb....
>
> After an hour of trial and error, and hunt and hope, i finally got it
> running!  (with QuteCsound as the frontEnd)
>
> No way would a beginner (or worse - a seasoned pro - put up with this)
>
> Here's what happens
>
> Go to cSounds.com to find *almost everything Csound*
>
> First thing in the news is QuteCsound.
> ? what's that ?  Not sure I want something that's Cute?  I want to  make
> some serious BEATS!!!!  MAN....
> But OK... maybe they call Csound Cute Csound now....
>
> Go to download
>
> Hummmm... there are 2 versions  Double and Float???  Hummmm
> - I use Logic Pro and Ableton Live and Audacity - and they have never
> asked me about double or float.
>
> OK - I will download both
>
> I will install one - doesn't work - not too cute
> I install the other - oesn't work - not cute at ALL...
>
> But wait... Back to cSounds.com... Oh.. there's a download tab/link,,,
>
> Ah..  here I find Canonical Csound5 - ALL PLATFORMS - cool, but what does
> canonical mean? build in echo?  No commercial  software uses this term -
> and I have EVERY commercial program on my PC!
> (i even paid for 1 of them)
>
> Csound Page at Sourceforge - what?  what's sourceforge..
>
> OK... I go....
>
>
> Download the latest Csound5.10 for Windows  (a binary?  what's that?   I
> never got the Reason 4.0 *binary*
>
> Worse... again 4 versions  5.9, 5,10 f, d, huh?
>
> - but which version float or double?
> Install
>
>
> Now here's where the fun begins (and beginners GIVE UP) (if they  haven't
> already)
>
> - Dialog appears... you don't have Python  ?  What?  I want Csound?
> but it says.... you can keep installing...
>
> great.
>
> Keep installing
>
> then... what do I click on to run Csound - why not try csound....
>
> NOPE...   doesn't run without Python...
>
> Then why the @!!@$#@%$#@!#  did you let me install it if it won't run
> without python?
>
>
> Maybe it does...
>
> Now to find Python?
>
> And this is not easy... there are dozens of versions of Python...  I
> downloaded 6 or 7
> Finally, one installed... (time is passing... no C sound .... no
> sound....
>
> OK.
>
> Python is installed - not even sure what version - just whatever one
> would install...
>
> OK...
>
> Then... install Csound again.
>
> Hum??? Should I uninstall first to be on the safe side?
> Did I install 2 versions or one over the other?
>
> OK....
>
> install Csound float
>
> YEAH... no dialog box complaining about Python... (maybe I got it)
>
> (((( Has it almost taken you 1 hour to read this email yet)))))  -
> because I do know how cool Csound is.... I do know it's worth it....
> but....
> I am about ready to give up...
>
> Why?
>
> Welll ... in the csound folder is csound, winsound, csound5gui, blah  blah
> blh.. - which door to I chose?
>
> I chose Csound... makes sense,,,  I am installing Csound...
>
> terminal appears.... some text wizzes by.... terminal disappears.!
>
> OK... I try winSound....
>
> - it doesn't make any sound?  it needs an orc or sco and there are  none
> to be found - and how would a beginner know that he needed them?
>
> And forget navigating to a folder - uuuuggggghhhh I can't find the
> desktop at alll....
>
> OK... so I try  csound5gui... oh this is a little better ... looks  like a
> transport here and an editor....
>
> BUT where are the orchestras?
>
> So.... NO SOUND..... well... in my mind Csound is the most amazing
> synth... but not in my speakers!
>
> So....  I had heard that QuteSound was the way to work with Csound....
>
> launch the version I installed
>
> NOPE... seems I installed the double version of QuteCsound - and (and  why
> has it got the name Csound in it ... if there is NO Csound in it...
> It's a cute launcher, quteHost... QuteWrapper  ????
>
> Just confused....
>
> So, I install another version o QuteCsound - and
>
> It launches - AMAZING...
>
> but where is the sound????
>
> Oh wait there is a menu - with examples....  - I go to one, I select
> it... I push on the transport...
>
> NOPE - wrong Audio Driver  Wrong Hardware Setup....
>
> I choose the right hardware setup
>
> I click on the transport................
>
>
> Sound!!!!!! SOUND!!!!!!  (CRAPPY CRAPPPYYYYYY  CRAPPPPPPPY sound -
> because this is a PC laptop my brother gave me - (I'm a mac guy you see)
> AN Expert actually
>
> And I am setting it up for him.....  he's taking this class at Berklee
> with the Dr. B.  guy....
>
> Well.... How would I know, as a beginner... to get rid of all that
> chatter and breakup in the audio, I would need to set the -B and -b  and
> check the boxes so that
> it uses the large number????
>
>
> I am happy now.... It took  ME more than 2 hours....  no lie... .....
>
> It might take you less... and if you are lucky and you choose wisely...
> (True...I am a bit sleepy.... I have been working 18-20 hours per day  on
> The Audio Programming Book - which I am delivering to MIT Press in  10
> days (waiting for the foreword from Max Mathews - and tweeking  things
> here and there........  and it's AMAZING!!!!! -
> with a lot of Csound in there too!  - plus..... MusicV (a working  version
> for all platforms! - a gift from Max Mathews)
> plus  (cmusic - workin version for all platforms!  a gift from F.  Richard
> Moore) .... and of course.....
>
> And by the way..........  when I get it running..........  Where are  the
> cool sounds!
>
> I know where they are - the Csound Catalog, cSounds.com, Csound Book,
> Csound Journal, etc.... but.... will a beginner know where to go...  and
> what to do....
>
> after ALL this, I am afraid that a PRO - a colleage from Berklee let's
> say.... blows off his family time on Sunday night - and after 2  hours....
> Toot 1 - a sine wave........................
>
> Sorry...
>
> EMPTY TRASH
>
> UNINSTALL
>
> MOVE ON....
>
> -dB
>
> a "nightmare to install for beginners" (or PROFESSIONALS especially)
> version of Csound5 for Windows!!  uuuuuugggggggghhhhhhhh
>
>
>
>
>
> On Jul 2, 2009, at 7:10 PM, DavidW wrote:
>
>> Fran,
>> I am pleased that you don't have problems doing an install that  suits
>> you. And that you enjoy using it.
>> Thus, the difficulties we are discussing need not concern you.
>>
>> Bbuild difficulties and usage difficulties are different - I think  it is
>> best not to confuse them.
>>
>> D
>> On 03/07/2009, at 8:55 AM, francibal wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Dear all,
>>> I'm a beginner, and i have no knowledge in programming, but i work  with
>>> a pc
>>> windows (xp-vista),
>>> and i never had problems. I have installed many different versions,  and
>>> both
>>> float and double, and many times i have disinstalled and again, but
>>> always
>>> it were all ok. And i'm not so able with a pc.
>>> Csound is not so easy at begin, but with a little bit (and with a  great
>>> help
>>> from You), one can understand how to work. A new frontend would be
>>> really a
>>> pleasure. I use scite(!), and i'm studying emacs
>>> (thanks Mr Rollandin!), and for me it is sufficient. Maybe more
>>> experienced
>>> users, like most of You, have some differents problems, I suppose.
>>>
>>> Only for report, from a lovers of csound,
>>>
>>> ciao, and thanks for all,
>>>
>>> fran.
>>> --
>>> View this message in context:
>>> http://www.nabble.com/Score-Alignment-Utility-tp24227460p24315191.html
>>> Sent from the Csound - General mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@... with body
>>> "unsubscribe csound"
>>
>> ________________________________________________
>> David Worrall.
>> - Experimental Polymedia:   worrall.avatar.com.au
>> - Sonification: www.sonifiction.com.au
>> - Education for Financial Independence: www.mindthemarkets.com.au
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@... with body  "unsubscribe
>> csound"
>
>
>
> Send bugs reports to this list.
> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@... with body "unsubscribe
> csound"

Send bugs reports to this list.
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[ze luis]

Some parts of this message have been removed. Learn more about Nabble's security policy.

Yes, I do agree with Mark on this.
I'm a Mac user, and I did had some troubles installing qutecsound (no problems at all with Csound 5.10) but beeing a teacher, and most of my students use XP or Vista, it has been a pain to correctly instal csound 5.10 and, for example Qutecsound! - it doesn't have to be necessarely a simpler installer - but it should have a link or something to a  step by step/ how to

---

From: mark jamerson <bass_pilot@...>
To: csound@...
Sent: Monday, July 6, 2009 2:43:43 PM
Subject: [Csnd] Re: Re: WE Desperately NEED a Simple Installer/Build for Windowswith QuteCsound (was: Building Python API


 

      As a relatively recent (a few years) beginner to the realm of Csound, I would like to make a suggestion regarding the csounds.com website issue that Dr. B brings up.  I agree with his discovery that the first page is not exactly aimed at the beginner. I think it might help to have some sort of "Get Started With Csound" link that is highly visible.  The link would then go to a page that has links to one version of Csound for each OS, and one version of Python.  I think we should restrict the beginner's choice as much as possible.  Take out the choice of float or double, and let them make that choice when they are more familiar with the world of csound.  I also think that the Csound we offer to beginner's should be the core Csound that has recently been discussed( This could also eliminate the need for python) .  Something like a demo version, with a note telling the beginner that they can get more out of Csound later if they choose.  I also think
the beginner version of Csound should include QuteCsound (The appropriate version to match the only Csound we offer them).  I only recently checked out QuteCsound, and I think it is highly accessible and user-friendly.  I never found that with winsound or csound5gui, and wound up using WinXound instead. 
     
      Basically my main point is that I think we need to create a portal for the beginners to be funnelled through that is limited in scope so as not to confuse them in the beginning. 

                                                Mark


----- Original Message ----
From: Dr. Richard Boulanger <richardboulanger@...>
To: csound@...
Sent: Sunday, July 5, 2009 11:07:59 PM
Subject: [Csnd] Re: WE Desperately NEED a Simple Installer/Build for Windowswith QuteCsound (was: Building Python API

OK.

On a clean XP machine, I tried to be a new user and get the latest version of Csound running.

So... like a pro who doesn't know, but hears it's the bomb....

After an hour of trial and error, and hunt and hope, i finally got it running!  (with QuteCsound as the frontEnd)

No way would a beginner (or worse - a seasoned pro - put up with this)

Here's what happens

Go to cSounds.com to find *almost everything Csound*

First thing in the news is QuteCsound.
? what's that ?  Not sure I want something that's Cute?  I want to make some serious BEATS!!!!  MAN....
But OK... maybe they call Csound Cute Csound now....

Go to download

Hummmm... there are 2 versions  Double and Float???  Hummmm
- I use Logic Pro and Ableton Live and Audacity - and they have never asked me about double or float.

OK - I will download both

I will install one - doesn't work - not too cute
I install the other - oesn't work - not cute at ALL...

But wait... Back to cSounds.com... Oh.. there's a download tab/link,,,

Ah..  here I find Canonical Csound5 - ALL PLATFORMS   
- cool, but what does canonical mean? build in echo?  No commercial software uses this term - and I have EVERY commercial program on my PC!
(i even paid for 1 of them)

Csound Page at Sourceforge - what?  what's sourceforge..

OK... I go....


Download the latest Csound5.10 for Windows  (a binary?  what's that?  I never got the Reason 4.0 *binary*

Worse... again 4 versions  5.9, 5,10 f, d, huh?

- but which version float or double?
Install


Now here's where the fun begins (and beginners GIVE UP) (if they haven't already)

- Dialog appears... you don't have Python  ?  What?  I want Csound?
but it says.... you can keep installing...

great.

Keep installing

then... what do I click on to run Csound - why not try csound....

NOPE...  doesn't run without Python...

Then why the @!!@$#@%$#@!#  did you let me install it if it won't run without python?


Maybe it does...

Now to find Python?

And this is not easy... there are dozens of versions of Python...  I downloaded 6 or 7
Finally, one installed... (time is passing... no C sound .... no sound....

OK.

Python is installed - not even sure what version - just whatever one would install...

OK...

Then... install Csound again.

Hum??? Should I uninstall first to be on the safe side?
Did I install 2 versions or one over the other?

OK....

install Csound float

YEAH... no dialog box complaining about Python... (maybe I got it)

(((( Has it almost taken you 1 hour to read this email yet)))))  - because I do know how cool Csound is.... I do know it's worth it.... but....
I am about ready to give up...

Why?

Welll ... in the csound folder is csound, winsound, csound5gui, blah blah blh.. - which door to I chose?

I chose Csound... makes sense,,,  I am installing Csound...

terminal appears.... some text wizzes by.... terminal disappears.!

OK... I try winSound....

- it doesn't make any sound?  it needs an orc or sco and there are none to be found - and how would a beginner know that he needed them?

And forget navigating to a folder - uuuuggggghhhh I can't find the desktop at alll....

OK... so I try  csound5gui... oh this is a little better ... looks like a transport here and an editor....

BUT where are the orchestras?

So.... NO SOUND..... well... in my mind Csound is the most amazing synth... but not in my speakers!

So....  I had heard that QuteSound was the way to work with Csound....

launch the version I installed

NOPE... seems I installed the double version of QuteCsound - and (and why has it got the name Csound in it ... if there is NO Csound in it...
It's a cute launcher, quteHost... QuteWrapper  ????

Just confused....

So, I install another version o QuteCsound - and

It launches - AMAZING...

but where is the sound????

Oh wait there is a menu - with examples....  - I go to one, I select it... I push on the transport...

NOPE - wrong Audio Driver  Wrong Hardware Setup....

I choose the right hardware setup

I click on the transport................


Sound!!!!!! SOUND!!!!!!  (CRAPPY CRAPPPYYYYYY  CRAPPPPPPPY sound - because this is a PC laptop my brother gave me - (I'm a mac guy you see)
AN Expert actually

And I am setting it up for him.....  he's taking this class at Berklee with the Dr. B.  guy....

Well.... How would I know, as a beginner... to get rid of all that chatter and breakup in the audio, I would need to set the -B and -b and check the boxes so that
it uses the large number????


I am happy now.... It took  ME more than 2 hours....  no lie... .....

It might take you less... and if you are lucky and you choose wisely...
(True...I am a bit sleepy.... I have been working 18-20 hours per day on The Audio Programming Book - which I am delivering to MIT Press in 10 days (waiting for the foreword from Max Mathews - and tweeking things here and there........  and it's AMAZING!!!!! -
with a lot of Csound in there too!  - plus..... MusicV (a working version for all platforms! - a gift from Max Mathews)
plus  (cmusic - workin version for all platforms!  a gift from F. Richard Moore) .... and of course.....

And by the way..........  when I get it running..........  Where are the cool sounds!

I know where they are - the Csound Catalog, cSounds.com, Csound Book, Csound Journal, etc.... but.... will a beginner know where to go... and what to do....

after ALL this, I am afraid that a PRO - a colleage from Berklee let's say.... blows off his family time on Sunday night - and after 2 hours....
Toot 1 - a sine wave........................

Sorry...

EMPTY TRASH

UNINSTALL

MOVE ON....

-dB

a "nightmare to install for beginners" (or PROFESSIONALS especially) version of Csound5 for Windows!!  uuuuuugggggggghhhhhhhh





On Jul 2, 2009, at 7:10 PM, DavidW wrote:

> Fran,
> I am pleased that you don't have problems doing an install that suits you. And that you enjoy using it.
> Thus, the difficulties we are discussing need not concern you.
>
> Bbuild difficulties and usage difficulties are different - I think it is best not to confuse them.
>
> D
> On 03/07/2009, at 8:55 AM, francibal wrote:
>
>>
>> Dear all,
>> I'm a beginner, and i have no knowledge in programming, but i work with a pc
>> windows (xp-vista),
>> and i never had problems. I have installed many different versions, and both
>> float and double, and many times i have disinstalled and again, but always
>> it were all ok. And i'm not so able with a pc.
>> Csound is not so easy at begin, but with a little bit (and with a great help
>> from You), one can understand how to work. A new frontend would be really a
>> pleasure. I use scite(!), and i'm studying emacs
>> (thanks Mr Rollandin!), and for me it is sufficient. Maybe more experienced
>> users, like most of You, have some differents problems, I suppose.
>>
>> Only for report, from a lovers of csound,
>>
>> ciao, and thanks for all,
>>
>> fran.

>> --View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Score-Alignment-Utility-tp24227460p24315191.html

>> Sent from the Csound - General mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>
>>
>>
>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@... with body "unsubscribe csound"
>
> ________________________________________________
> David Worrall.
> - Experimental Polymedia:      worrall.avatar.com.au
> - Sonification: www.sonifiction.com.au
> - Education for Financial Independence: www.mindthemarkets.com.au
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Send bugs reports to this list.
> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@... with body "unsubscribe csound"

Send bugs reports to this list.
To unsubscribe, send email sympa@... with body "unsubscribe csound"



     


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[jpff-2]

OpenSuSE has 21 packages relating to Csound, including Blue, csound-devel,
csound-GUI etc.  Not sure how to list them all, but..  5.06 on
opensuse.org and 5.09 on packman
==John ff

> For debian, a link to packages.debian.org/csound should suffice.
> Similarly, for ubuntu a link to packages.ubuntu.com/csound is enough
> too. I do not know a canonical address for fedora packages,
> unfortunately.
>
> Some wording like this should be good (I suck at this, so feel free to
> edit):
>
> Linux users my be able to get the latest version of csound from their
> distribution's repositories.
>
> And then put a list of distributions with known canonical addresses.
>
> Saludos,
> Felipe Sateler
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 13:25, Dr. Richard
> Boulanger<rboulanger@...> wrote:
>> Felipe,
>>
>> I love your idea -
>>
>> Get Csound NOW... 1 link for each platform.
>>
>> (happy to host those 1 link clean/simple/beginner versions at
>> cSounds.com
>> even... if this helps)
>>
>> Please email me the info you want me to add, the exact info and links
>> you  would like me to add, about about the Linux versions at cSounds.com
>>
>> -dB
>>
>>
>> On Jul 6, 2009, at 10:06 PM, Felipe Sateler wrote:
>>
>>> In Debian, we do not set any environment variables, because
>>> OPCODEDIR64 is hardcoded to the installation path of the plugins (one
>>> of the advantages of here, we don't have to guess were the plugins
>>> will be installed). We only provide the double version of csound: my
>>> tests suggest that doubles are faster on 64bit, and I prefer to
>>> optimize for these computers (32bit will slowly go away).
>>>
>>> I wouldn't personally bother with any other env var, their use cases
>>> are limited (a default of . should be OK, ie search from the current
>>> working directory).
>>>
>>>
>>> I think that the easiest way to avoid most of all these problems for
>>> begginers is to make a choice for them. A link "Get csound now!" which
>>> points to a *single* binary for each platform would go a long way, as
>>> suggested somewhere in this thread.
>>>
>>> I would like to use the opportunity to ask Dr B to put in the download
>>> page some information regarding packages for linux users. Debian and
>>> Ubuntu users can get csound from the repositories, and I think Fedora
>>> users too.
>>>
>>> On 05/07/2009, Michael Gogins <michael.gogins@...> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> There are many environment variables. I think there should be a
>>>> sensible default for each.
>>>>
>>>> Also, is there a Linux default for both 32 bit and 64 bit sample
>>>> builds of Csound?
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Mike
>>>>
>>>> On 7/4/09, Felipe Sateler <fsateler@...> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Doesn't csound have a default path for all of the env variables? For
>>>>> opcodes in linux there is...
>>>>>
>>>>> On 04/07/2009, Michael Gogins <michael.gogins@...> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> OK, no environment variables. Then Csound must search specific paths
>>>>>> for plugin opcodes, samples, and so on.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I would prefer this myself.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>> Mike
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 7/4/09, jpff <jpff@...> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?St=E9phane" == =?ISO-8859-1?Q?St=E9phane
>>>>>>>>>>>> Rollandin?=
>>>>>>>>>>>> <lecteur@...> writes:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> No environment variables; no installer; different versions of
>>>>>>>>> Csound
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> can
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> coexist without problems.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> =?ISO-8859-1?Q?St=E9phane> We have been asking for this for ages...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> =?ISO-8859-1?Q?St=E9phane> Stef
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So have I (re environment variables) .....
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ==John ffitch
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@... with body
>>>>>>> "unsubscribe
>>>>>>> csound"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Michael Gogins
>>>>>> Irreducible Productions
>>>>>> http://www.michael-gogins.com
>>>>>> Michael dot Gogins at gmail dot com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@... with body
>>>>>> "unsubscribe
>>>>>> csound"
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>>
>>>>> Saludos,
>>>>> Felipe Sateler
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>>>>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@... with body
>>>>> "unsubscribe
>>>>> csound"
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Michael Gogins
>>>> Irreducible Productions
>>>> http://www.michael-gogins.com
>>>> Michael dot Gogins at gmail dot com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>>>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@... with body
>>>> "unsubscribe
>>>> csound"
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Saludos,
>>> Felipe Sateler
>>>
>>>
>>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@... with body
>>> "unsubscribe
>>> csound"
>>
>>
>>
>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@... with body "unsubscribe
>> csound"
>>
>
>
> Send bugs reports to this list.
> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@... with body "unsubscribe
> csound"
>
>
>

Send bugs reports to this list.
To unsubscribe, send email sympa@... with body "unsubscribe csound"

[csounder]

Thanks Art.

I have massively appreciated ALL your efforts toward making Csound  
*just work* on the OLPC and on Windows too!!!

The reason this came up - I have a blind Csound student this semester  
who is using a PC with the Jaws program to read his screen.
Alone, there was no way that he could find a working combination of  
Csound to run on his laptop.
So, with the help of my best student assistant (a Mac-based Csound  
expert), it took them HOURS to set up his PC.
He brought the unit to my office and we spent three hours with his  
*bits of this version - pieces of that version - this frontEnd does  
this only* setup*

- so I went home and tried myself on a clean machine.  (and I tried to  
report that experience below - in someone's shoes)

The thing is - now that it's finally working on my PC - I will never  
have that days worth of problems again.  From now on any install  
should work,
but... I think I might have more patience and vested interest than the  
average professional or student.... and I think most others would have
moved on.

What I discovered was that there are so many places to get lost along  
the way it's incredible....  even when you get it running....

I can appreciate now, even in my classes where I am there to hold  
hands, that if you have no one there by your side,
it's pretty difficult to know which way to go.

I do hope that we can come up with a better and more intuitive  
solution (collection) getting started process for ALL platforms.

-Rick


On Jul 8, 2009, at 10:40 AM, Art Hunkins wrote:

> Right on, Rick!
>
> Art Hunkins
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dr. Richard Boulanger" <richardboulanger@...
> >
> To: <csound@...>
> Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 12:07 AM
> Subject: [PMX:####] [Csnd] Re: WE Desperately NEED a Simple  
> Installer/Build for Windowswith QuteCsound (was: Building Python API
>
>
>> OK.
>>
>> On a clean XP machine, I tried to be a new user and get the latest  
>> version of Csound running.
>>
>> So... like a pro who doesn't know, but hears it's the bomb....
>>
>> After an hour of trial and error, and hunt and hope, i finally got  
>> it running!  (with QuteCsound as the frontEnd)
>>
>> No way would a beginner (or worse - a seasoned pro - put up with  
>> this)
>>
>> Here's what happens
>>
>> Go to cSounds.com to find *almost everything Csound*
>>
>> First thing in the news is QuteCsound.
>> ? what's that ?  Not sure I want something that's Cute?  I want to  
>> make some serious BEATS!!!!  MAN....
>> But OK... maybe they call Csound Cute Csound now....
>>
>> Go to download
>>
>> Hummmm... there are 2 versions  Double and Float???  Hummmm
>> - I use Logic Pro and Ableton Live and Audacity - and they have  
>> never asked me about double or float.
>>
>> OK - I will download both
>>
>> I will install one - doesn't work - not too cute
>> I install the other - oesn't work - not cute at ALL...
>>
>> But wait... Back to cSounds.com... Oh.. there's a download tab/
>> link,,,
>>
>> Ah..  here I find Canonical Csound5 - ALL PLATFORMS - cool, but  
>> what does canonical mean? build in echo?  No commercial  software  
>> uses this term - and I have EVERY commercial program on my PC!
>> (i even paid for 1 of them)
>>
>> Csound Page at Sourceforge - what?  what's sourceforge..
>>
>> OK... I go....
>>
>>
>> Download the latest Csound5.10 for Windows  (a binary?  what's  
>> that?   I never got the Reason 4.0 *binary*
>>
>> Worse... again 4 versions  5.9, 5,10 f, d, huh?
>>
>> - but which version float or double?
>> Install
>>
>>
>> Now here's where the fun begins (and beginners GIVE UP) (if they  
>> haven't already)
>>
>> - Dialog appears... you don't have Python  ?  What?  I want Csound?
>> but it says.... you can keep installing...
>>
>> great.
>>
>> Keep installing
>>
>> then... what do I click on to run Csound - why not try csound....
>>
>> NOPE...   doesn't run without Python...
>>
>> Then why the @!!@$#@%$#@!#  did you let me install it if it won't  
>> run without python?
>>
>>
>> Maybe it does...
>>
>> Now to find Python?
>>
>> And this is not easy... there are dozens of versions of Python...  
>> I downloaded 6 or 7
>> Finally, one installed... (time is passing... no C sound .... no  
>> sound....
>>
>> OK.
>>
>> Python is installed - not even sure what version - just whatever  
>> one would install...
>>
>> OK...
>>
>> Then... install Csound again.
>>
>> Hum??? Should I uninstall first to be on the safe side?
>> Did I install 2 versions or one over the other?
>>
>> OK....
>>
>> install Csound float
>>
>> YEAH... no dialog box complaining about Python... (maybe I got it)
>>
>> (((( Has it almost taken you 1 hour to read this email yet)))))  -  
>> because I do know how cool Csound is.... I do know it's worth  
>> it.... but....
>> I am about ready to give up...
>>
>> Why?
>>
>> Welll ... in the csound folder is csound, winsound, csound5gui,  
>> blah  blah blh.. - which door to I chose?
>>
>> I chose Csound... makes sense,,,  I am installing Csound...
>>
>> terminal appears.... some text wizzes by.... terminal disappears.!
>>
>> OK... I try winSound....
>>
>> - it doesn't make any sound?  it needs an orc or sco and there are  
>> none to be found - and how would a beginner know that he needed them?
>>
>> And forget navigating to a folder - uuuuggggghhhh I can't find the  
>> desktop at alll....
>>
>> OK... so I try  csound5gui... oh this is a little better ... looks  
>> like a transport here and an editor....
>>
>> BUT where are the orchestras?
>>
>> So.... NO SOUND..... well... in my mind Csound is the most amazing  
>> synth... but not in my speakers!
>>
>> So....  I had heard that QuteSound was the way to work with  
>> Csound....
>>
>> launch the version I installed
>>
>> NOPE... seems I installed the double version of QuteCsound - and  
>> (and  why has it got the name Csound in it ... if there is NO  
>> Csound in it...
>> It's a cute launcher, quteHost... QuteWrapper  ????
>>
>> Just confused....
>>
>> So, I install another version o QuteCsound - and
>>
>> It launches - AMAZING...
>>
>> but where is the sound????
>>
>> Oh wait there is a menu - with examples....  - I go to one, I  
>> select it... I push on the transport...
>>
>> NOPE - wrong Audio Driver  Wrong Hardware Setup....
>>
>> I choose the right hardware setup
>>
>> I click on the transport................
>>
>>
>> Sound!!!!!! SOUND!!!!!!  (CRAPPY CRAPPPYYYYYY  CRAPPPPPPPY sound -  
>> because this is a PC laptop my brother gave me - (I'm a mac guy you  
>> see)
>> AN Expert actually
>>
>> And I am setting it up for him.....  he's taking this class at  
>> Berklee with the Dr. B.  guy....
>>
>> Well.... How would I know, as a beginner... to get rid of all that  
>> chatter and breakup in the audio, I would need to set the -B and -
>> b  and check the boxes so that
>> it uses the large number????
>>
>>
>> I am happy now.... It took  ME more than 2 hours....  no lie... .....
>>
>> It might take you less... and if you are lucky and you choose  
>> wisely...
>> (True...I am a bit sleepy.... I have been working 18-20 hours per  
>> day  on The Audio Programming Book - which I am delivering to MIT  
>> Press in  10 days (waiting for the foreword from Max Mathews - and  
>> tweeking  things here and there........  and it's AMAZING!!!!! -
>> with a lot of Csound in there too!  - plus..... MusicV (a working  
>> version for all platforms! - a gift from Max Mathews)
>> plus  (cmusic - workin version for all platforms!  a gift from F.  
>> Richard Moore) .... and of course.....
>>
>> And by the way..........  when I get it running..........  Where  
>> are  the cool sounds!
>>
>> I know where they are - the Csound Catalog, cSounds.com, Csound  
>> Book, Csound Journal, etc.... but.... will a beginner know where to  
>> go...  and what to do....
>>
>> after ALL this, I am afraid that a PRO - a colleage from Berklee  
>> let's say.... blows off his family time on Sunday night - and after  
>> 2  hours....
>> Toot 1 - a sine wave........................
>>
>> Sorry...
>>
>> EMPTY TRASH
>>
>> UNINSTALL
>>
>> MOVE ON....
>>
>> -dB
>>
>> a "nightmare to install for beginners" (or PROFESSIONALS  
>> especially) version of Csound5 for Windows!!  uuuuuugggggggghhhhhhhh
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Jul 2, 2009, at 7:10 PM, DavidW wrote:
>>
>>> Fran,
>>> I am pleased that you don't have problems doing an install that  
>>> suits you. And that you enjoy using it.
>>> Thus, the difficulties we are discussing need not concern you.
>>>
>>> Bbuild difficulties and usage difficulties are different - I  
>>> think  it is best not to confuse them.
>>>
>>> D
>>> On 03/07/2009, at 8:55 AM, francibal wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Dear all,
>>>> I'm a beginner, and i have no knowledge in programming, but i  
>>>> work  with a pc
>>>> windows (xp-vista),
>>>> and i never had problems. I have installed many different  
>>>> versions,  and both
>>>> float and double, and many times i have disinstalled and again,  
>>>> but always
>>>> it were all ok. And i'm not so able with a pc.
>>>> Csound is not so easy at begin, but with a little bit (and with  
>>>> a  great help
>>>> from You), one can understand how to work. A new frontend would  
>>>> be really a
>>>> pleasure. I use scite(!), and i'm studying emacs
>>>> (thanks Mr Rollandin!), and for me it is sufficient. Maybe more  
>>>> experienced
>>>> users, like most of You, have some differents problems, I suppose.
>>>>
>>>> Only for report, from a lovers of csound,
>>>>
>>>> ciao, and thanks for all,
>>>>
>>>> fran.
>>>> --
>>>> View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Score-Alignment-Utility-tp24227460p24315191.html
>>>> Sent from the Csound - General mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>>>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@... with body  
>>>> "unsubscribe csound"
>>>
>>> ________________________________________________
>>> David Worrall.
>>> - Experimental Polymedia:   worrall.avatar.com.au
>>> - Sonification: www.sonifiction.com.au
>>> - Education for Financial Independence: www.mindthemarkets.com.au
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@... with body  
>>> "unsubscribe csound"
>>
>>
>>
>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@... with body  
>> "unsubscribe csound"
>
>
>
> Send bugs reports to this list.
> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@... with body  
> "unsubscribe csound"

Send bugs reports to this list.
To unsubscribe, send email sympa@... with body "unsubscribe csound"

[csounder]

I would be happy to work at getting those pages back in place at cSounds.com - for all platforms. (And I would be happy to have

the help of a windows person.... a mac person... and a linux person... to get me the documents and links that would work best.)

There is already a section at SourceForge with lots of info - would that ALSO be the place for THIS info.

The Getting Started - Pages (and maybe in the manual too?)

-dB

On Jul 8, 2009, at 12:35 PM, ze luis wrote:

Yes, I do agree with Mark on this.
I'm a Mac user, and I did had some troubles installing qutecsound (no problems at all with Csound 5.10) but beeing a teacher, and most of my students use XP or Vista, it has been a pain to correctly instal csound 5.10 and, for example Qutecsound! - it doesn't have to be necessarely a simpler installer - but it should have a link or something to a  step by step/ how to

---

From: mark jamerson <bass_pilot@...>
To: csound@...
Sent: Monday, July 6, 2009 2:43:43 PM
Subject: [Csnd] Re: Re: WE Desperately NEED a Simple Installer/Build for Windowswith QuteCsound (was: Building Python API


  

      As a relatively recent (a few years) beginner to the realm of Csound, I would like to make a suggestion regarding the csounds.com website issue that Dr. B brings up.  I agree with his discovery that the first page is not exactly aimed at the beginner. I think it might help to have some sort of "Get Started With Csound" link that is highly visible.  The link would then go to a page that has links to one version of Csound for each OS, and one version of Python.  I think we should restrict the beginner's choice as much as possible.  Take out the choice of float or double, and let them make that choice when they are more familiar with the world of csound.  I also think that the Csound we offer to beginner's should be the core Csound that has recently been discussed( This could also eliminate the need for python) .  Something like a demo version, with a note telling the beginner that they can get more out of Csound later if they choose.  I also think
the beginner version of Csound should include QuteCsound (The appropriate version to match the only Csound we offer them).  I only recently checked out QuteCsound, and I think it is highly accessible and user-friendly.  I never found that with winsound or csound5gui, and wound up using WinXound instead.  
      
      Basically my main point is that I think we need to create a portal for the beginners to be funnelled through that is limited in scope so as not to confuse them in the beginning.  

                                                Mark 


----- Original Message ----
From: Dr. Richard Boulanger <richardboulanger@...>
To: csound@...
Sent: Sunday, July 5, 2009 11:07:59 PM
Subject: [Csnd] Re: WE Desperately NEED a Simple Installer/Build for Windowswith QuteCsound (was: Building Python API

OK.

On a clean XP machine, I tried to be a new user and get the latest version of Csound running.

So... like a pro who doesn't know, but hears it's the bomb....

After an hour of trial and error, and hunt and hope, i finally got it running!  (with QuteCsound as the frontEnd)

No way would a beginner (or worse - a seasoned pro - put up with this)

Here's what happens

Go to cSounds.com to find *almost everything Csound*

First thing in the news is QuteCsound.
? what's that ?  Not sure I want something that's Cute?  I want to make some serious BEATS!!!!  MAN....
But OK... maybe they call Csound Cute Csound now....

Go to download

Hummmm... there are 2 versions  Double and Float???  Hummmm
- I use Logic Pro and Ableton Live and Audacity - and they have never asked me about double or float.

OK - I will download both

I will install one - doesn't work - not too cute
I install the other - oesn't work - not cute at ALL...

But wait... Back to cSounds.com... Oh.. there's a download tab/link,,,

Ah..  here I find Canonical Csound5 - ALL PLATFORMS    
- cool, but what does canonical mean? build in echo?  No commercial software uses this term - and I have EVERY commercial program on my PC!
(i even paid for 1 of them)

Csound Page at Sourceforge - what?  what's sourceforge..

OK... I go....


Download the latest Csound5.10 for Windows  (a binary?  what's that?  I never got the Reason 4.0 *binary*

Worse... again 4 versions  5.9, 5,10 f, d, huh?

- but which version float or double?
Install


Now here's where the fun begins (and beginners GIVE UP) (if they haven't already)

- Dialog appears... you don't have Python  ?  What?  I want Csound?
but it says.... you can keep installing...

great.

Keep installing

then... what do I click on to run Csound - why not try csound....

NOPE...  doesn't run without Python...

Then why the @!!@$#@%$#@!#  did you let me install it if it won't run without python?


Maybe it does...

Now to find Python?

And this is not easy... there are dozens of versions of Python...  I downloaded 6 or 7
Finally, one installed... (time is passing... no C sound .... no sound....

OK.

Python is installed - not even sure what version - just whatever one would install...

OK...

Then... install Csound again.

Hum??? Should I uninstall first to be on the safe side?
Did I install 2 versions or one over the other?

OK....

install Csound float

YEAH... no dialog box complaining about Python... (maybe I got it)

(((( Has it almost taken you 1 hour to read this email yet)))))  - because I do know how cool Csound is.... I do know it's worth it.... but....
I am about ready to give up...

Why?

Welll ... in the csound folder is csound, winsound, csound5gui, blah blah blh.. - which door to I chose?

I chose Csound... makes sense,,,  I am installing Csound...

terminal appears.... some text wizzes by.... terminal disappears.!

OK... I try winSound....

- it doesn't make any sound?  it needs an orc or sco and there are none to be found - and how would a beginner know that he needed them?

And forget navigating to a folder - uuuuggggghhhh I can't find the desktop at alll....

OK... so I try  csound5gui... oh this is a little better ... looks like a transport here and an editor....

BUT where are the orchestras?

So.... NO SOUND..... well... in my mind Csound is the most amazing synth... but not in my speakers!

So....  I had heard that QuteSound was the way to work with Csound....

launch the version I installed

NOPE... seems I installed the double version of QuteCsound - and (and why has it got the name Csound in it ... if there is NO Csound in it...
It's a cute launcher, quteHost... QuteWrapper  ????

Just confused....

So, I install another version o QuteCsound - and

It launches - AMAZING...

but where is the sound????

Oh wait there is a menu - with examples....  - I go to one, I select it... I push on the transport...

NOPE - wrong Audio Driver  Wrong Hardware Setup....

I choose the right hardware setup

I click on the transport................


Sound!!!!!! SOUND!!!!!!  (CRAPPY CRAPPPYYYYYY  CRAPPPPPPPY sound - because this is a PC laptop my brother gave me - (I'm a mac guy you see)
AN Expert actually

And I am setting it up for him.....  he's taking this class at Berklee with the Dr. B.  guy....

Well.... How would I know, as a beginner... to get rid of all that chatter and breakup in the audio, I would need to set the -B and -b and check the boxes so that
it uses the large number????


I am happy now.... It took  ME more than 2 hours....  no lie... .....

It might take you less... and if you are lucky and you choose wisely...
(True...I am a bit sleepy.... I have been working 18-20 hours per day on The Audio Programming Book - which I am delivering to MIT Press in 10 days (waiting for the foreword from Max Mathews - and tweeking things here and there........  and it's AMAZING!!!!! -
with a lot of Csound in there too!  - plus..... MusicV (a working version for all platforms! - a gift from Max Mathews)
plus  (cmusic - workin version for all platforms!  a gift from F. Richard Moore) .... and of course.....

And by the way..........  when I get it running..........  Where are the cool sounds!

I know where they are - the Csound Catalog, cSounds.com, Csound Book, Csound Journal, etc.... but.... will a beginner know where to go... and what to do....

after ALL this, I am afraid that a PRO - a colleage from Berklee let's say.... blows off his family time on Sunday night - and after 2 hours....
Toot 1 - a sine wave........................

Sorry...

EMPTY TRASH

UNINSTALL

MOVE ON....

-dB

a "nightmare to install for beginners" (or PROFESSIONALS especially) version of Csound5 for Windows!!  uuuuuugggggggghhhhhhhh





On Jul 2, 2009, at 7:10 PM, DavidW wrote:

> Fran,
> I am pleased that you don't have problems doing an install that suits you. And that you enjoy using it.
> Thus, the difficulties we are discussing need not concern you.
> 
> Bbuild difficulties and usage difficulties are different - I think it is best not to confuse them.
> 
> D
> On 03/07/2009, at 8:55 AM, francibal wrote:
> 
>> 
>> Dear all,
>> I'm a beginner, and i have no knowledge in programming, but i work with a pc
>> windows (xp-vista),
>> and i never had problems. I have installed many different versions, and both
>> float and double, and many times i have disinstalled and again, but always
>> it were all ok. And i'm not so able with a pc.
>> Csound is not so easy at begin, but with a little bit (and with a great help
>> from You), one can understand how to work. A new frontend would be really a
>> pleasure. I use scite(!), and i'm studying emacs
>> (thanks Mr Rollandin!), and for me it is sufficient. Maybe more experienced
>> users, like most of You, have some differents problems, I suppose.
>> 
>> Only for report, from a lovers of csound,
>> 
>> ciao, and thanks for all,
>> 
>> fran.

>> --View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Score-Alignment-Utility-tp24227460p24315191.html

>> Sent from the Csound - General mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Send bugs reports to this list.
>> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@... with body "unsubscribe csound"
> 
> ________________________________________________
> David Worrall.
> - Experimental Polymedia:      worrall.avatar.com.au
> - Sonification: www.sonifiction.com.au
> - Education for Financial Independence: www.mindthemarkets.com.au
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Send bugs reports to this list.
> To unsubscribe, send email sympa@... with body "unsubscribe csound"

Send bugs reports to this list.
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