Shale Status

[Bernhard Slominski]

Thanks Paul, good idea!

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Paul Spencer [mailto:paulsp@...]
Gesendet: Montag, 4. Februar 2008 23:39
An: user@...
Betreff: Re: Shale Status


Bernhard,
I suggest you post this to the developer's list.

Paul Spencer

Bernhard Slominski wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I make a small presentation about Shale in the JSF Days in Vienna, for that I'd like to have some information about the current status of Shale.
> I just went through the maillist, but it's a bit difficult to find hard facts.
>
> So my questions are the following
>
> - Next Shale relaese
> Right now there is no plan for a Shale 1.0.5 release right?
> Corresponding thread: http://markmail.org/message/nagpn7igxeowjtx6?q=org%2Eapache%2Eshale%2Edev
>
> - What goes where?
> There was this thread: http://markmail.org/message/3ws5fzthj2yfdjjp?q=org%2Eapache%2Eshale%2Edev+list:org%2Eapache%2Eshale%2Edev
> But there was no final decision on what goes where, so is it still open, or is there a decision?
>
> - Shale itsself
> Will it disappear as an Apache Top Level project?
>
> Cheers
>
> Bernhard
>

[Gary%20VanMatre]

>From: "Bernhard Slominski" <bernhard.slominski@...>
>
> Thanks Paul, good idea!
>
> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: Paul Spencer [mailto:paulsp@...]
> Gesendet: Montag, 4. Februar 2008 23:39
> An: user@...
> Betreff: Re: Shale Status
>
>
> Bernhard,
> I suggest you post this to the developer's list.
>
> Paul Spencer
>
> Bernhard Slominski wrote:
> > Hi all,
> >
> > I make a small presentation about Shale in the JSF Days in Vienna, for that
> I'd like to have some information about the current status of Shale.
> > I just went through the maillist, but it's a bit difficult to find hard facts.
> >

Say, weren't you working on a Shale in Action book at one time.  Maybe I've confused the name.

> > So my questions are the following
> >
> > - Next Shale relaese
> > Right now there is no plan for a Shale 1.0.5 release right?
> > Corresponding thread:
> http://markmail.org/message/nagpn7igxeowjtx6?q=org%2Eapache%2Eshale%2Edev 
> >
> > - What goes where?
> > There was this thread:
> http://markmail.org/message/3ws5fzthj2yfdjjp?q=org%2Eapache%2Eshale%2Edev+list:o 
> rg%2Eapache%2Eshale%2Edev
> > But there was no final decision on what goes where, so is it still open, or is
> there a decision?
> >
> > - Shale itsself
> > Will it disappear as an Apache Top Level project?
> >

At this point, I'd rather not see Shale merge with Myfaces.  Myfaces is really only interested in the test library and they would rather not support any of the other libraries.  I'm all in favor of consolidating some of these ideas but it would not be responsible to just drop support.  Admittedly, there has not been much recent activity amongst the shale committers but more than nonexistent.

Myfaces is already a very large community.  I think a better plan would be to grow the shale community with volunteers that have an itch to scratch.  Shale is a project that is not sponsored by a company and not an RI implementation so our volunteers are contributing primarily on their own time.

The vision of Shale was to provide feature addons to JSF.  We will be seeing forms of these features added to the next versions of the JSF spec so as time passes they will be less desirable.  However, I have to believe there are fresh ideas out there looking for a home.
 
I don't think I can answer you question about when the next shale release will be.  I think it depends on when we can coordinate the efforts.

> > Cheers
> >
> > Bernhard
> >


Gary

>

[Bernhard Slominski]

Gary, thanks for the answer.

> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: Gary VanMatre [mailto:gvanmatre@...]
> Gesendet: Dienstag, 5. Februar 2008 16:08
> An: dev@...
> Betreff: Re: Shale Status
>
>
> Say, weren't you working on a Shale in Action book at one
> time.  Maybe I've confused the name.
>

I was working on this that's right and I already finished 5 chapters, problem is that some co-authors didn't finish their stuff, also right now the future od Shale itsself is really unsure, so at the minute I don't see a chance that someone will publish the book.
Even though I think I should do something with the 5 chapters, maybe I release it as a blog or I pass it to the community, I guess there will be some interest.

> The vision of Shale was to provide feature addons to JSF.  We will be seeing forms of these features added to the next versions of the JSF spec so as time > passes they will be less desirable.  However, I have to believe there are fresh ideas out there looking for a home.
 
> I don't think I can answer you question about when the next shale release will be.  I think it depends on when we can coordinate the efforts.

I think we are still suffering from the "loss" of Craig, but in gerneral I guess Shale should not disappear, it is useful and people want and need the stuff which is in Shale, question is really is the developper and user community strong enough to keep Shale alive?
I see what feedback I can get from the presentation.

Bernhard

[Gary%20VanMatre]

>From: "Bernhard Slominski" <bernhard.slominski@...>
>
> Gary, thanks for the answer.
>
> > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> > Von: Gary VanMatre [mailto:gvanmatre@...]
> > Gesendet: Dienstag, 5. Februar 2008 16:08
> > An: dev@...
> > Betreff: Re: Shale Status
> >
> >
> > Say, weren't you working on a Shale in Action book at one
> > time. Maybe I've confused the name.
> >
>
> I was working on this that's right and I already finished 5 chapters, problem is
> that some co-authors didn't finish their stuff, also right now the future od
> Shale itsself is really unsure, so at the minute I don't see a chance that
> someone will publish the book.
> Even though I think I should do something with the 5 chapters, maybe I release
> it as a blog or I pass it to the community, I guess there will be some interest.
>

Shale might be a good home for that information :-).  Or, at least a wiki link to wherever it rests.

> > The vision of Shale was to provide feature addons to JSF. We will be seeing
> forms of these features added to the next versions of the JSF spec so as time >
> passes they will be less desirable. However, I have to believe there are fresh
> ideas out there looking for a home.
>
> > I don't think I can answer you question about when the next shale release will
> be. I think it depends on when we can coordinate the efforts.
>
> I think we are still suffering from the "loss" of Craig, but in gerneral I guess
> Shale should not disappear, it is useful and people want and need the stuff
> which is in Shale, question is really is the developper and user community
> strong enough to keep Shale alive?
> I see what feedback I can get from the presentation.
>

There is not doubt that Craig's inactivity has been a factor.  I don't think that I'm going out on a limb by saying that 85 percent of Shale was Craig's craftsmanship and I have great respect for him and his work.
 
He has invested allot into Shale.  He obviously must have much bigger fish to fry for the time and my bet is that whatever has his time will have a driving influence on technology.


> Bernhard
>

Gary

[Bernhard Slominski]

>
> There is not doubt that Craig's inactivity has been a factor.
>  I don't think that I'm going out on a limb by saying that 85
> percent of Shale was Craig's craftsmanship and I have great
> respect for him and his work.
>  
> He has invested allot into Shale.  He obviously must have
> much bigger fish to fry for the time and my bet is that
> whatever has his time will have a driving influence on technology.
>

Gary, don't get me wrong, I'm not blaming Craig, he did a great job on various areas, I think we don't have to mention the influence he had on web deveopment.
But exactly for that reason Craig is really hard to "replace".
As I said I hope his work in Shale will go on, it should not get lost.

Bernhard

[mario.buonopane]

Please, don't let Shale dead. I'm a user of Shale and like me there are
a lot of persons. If we can do something for Shale, please tell us what
we can do.

Ciao, Mario

-----Original Message-----
From: Bernhard Slominski [mailto:bernhard.slominski@...]
Sent: 5 febbraio 2008 17.19
To: dev@...
Subject: AW: AW: Shale Status

>
> There is not doubt that Craig's inactivity has been a factor.
>  I don't think that I'm going out on a limb by saying that 85
> percent of Shale was Craig's craftsmanship and I have great
> respect for him and his work.
>  
> He has invested allot into Shale.  He obviously must have
> much bigger fish to fry for the time and my bet is that
> whatever has his time will have a driving influence on technology.
>

Gary, don't get me wrong, I'm not blaming Craig, he did a great job on
various areas, I think we don't have to mention the influence he had on
web deveopment.
But exactly for that reason Craig is really hard to "replace".
As I said I hope his work in Shale will go on, it should not get lost.

Bernhard





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[Greg Reddin-4]

Shale is an open source project. It will never *die* unless the ASF
dies or kills it and nobody copies the code over to some other
repository. That's one of the main reasons we like open source. It's
not dependent on the existence of any person, company, or
organization.

It's funny how the discussion that occurred here and on the MyFaces
list has created all this buzz about "Shale is dying" and all that
crap. The biggest problem we have (and I'm part of the problem) is
that new people are not stepping up to the plate to contribute to the
development process and many of the existing committers are doing
other things and not contributing as much to the project.

Of course, the project has reached a level of stability where no
contribution is required to make the codebase inherently useful. Also
similar architectures like Seam and Facelets are taking some
Shale(ish) concepts and implementing them in other ways (with
corporate support) thus making parts of Shale redundant. As Gary said
some of the concepts of Shale are being introduced at spec level for
the next gen of JSF and might make Shale even more redundant. So the
motivation for people to step in and sling code is not necessarily
huge - especially given some of the barriers to entry that are
inherent in open source.

I know the tone of this message is a bit short, but please don't
detect any sense of anger or frustration in my thoughts. I'm just
trying to explain that "inactivity != death". We're not like an infant
whose arms and legs are always in motion unless he's asleep. We're
more like old guys who sit on the porch and don't move unless our beer
glass is empty :-) If we all stop committing for 6 months or even a
year it does not mean the project is not being supported. In fact I'm
using parts of it in production every day. You can bet if I find a bug
I'll fix it - I just haven't found any yet in the stuff I'm using. The
fact that I haven't committed to any of the other parts just means my
time has been spent on other things (like watching an infant
constantly move his arms and legs for no particular reason).

I guess the bottom line is that Shale is not dead. If anybody is
unhappy with a lack of activity then, by all means, we welcome
activity.

Greg

[samju]

Sorry I am not on the Dev list. but I would like to mention that McGraw-Hill
Education will release a Book written by Holmes, James under the name
"Shale" Complete Reference?. they speak about The ultimate Struts 2
resourceHere is the first definitive text on Java' s newest and most modern
Web application framework--Struts 2.0.
Bernhard I am ready to work , if you are looking for co-authors.

Sam Julian

Bernhard Slominski wrote:

>
> Gary, thanks for the answer.
>
>> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
>> Von: Gary VanMatre [mailto:gvanmatre@...]
>> Gesendet: Dienstag, 5. Februar 2008 16:08
>> An: dev@...
>> Betreff: Re: Shale Status
>>
>>
>> Say, weren't you working on a Shale in Action book at one
>> time.  Maybe I've confused the name.
>>
>
> I was working on this that's right and I already finished 5 chapters,
> problem is that some co-authors didn't finish their stuff, also right now
> the future od Shale itsself is really unsure, so at the minute I don't see
> a chance that someone will publish the book.
> Even though I think I should do something with the 5 chapters, maybe I
> release it as a blog or I pass it to the community, I guess there will be
> some interest.
>
>> The vision of Shale was to provide feature addons to JSF.  We will be
>> seeing forms of these features added to the next versions of the JSF spec
>> so as time > passes they will be less desirable.  However, I have to
>> believe there are fresh ideas out there looking for a home.
>  
>> I don't think I can answer you question about when the next shale release
>> will be.  I think it depends on when we can coordinate the efforts.
>
> I think we are still suffering from the "loss" of Craig, but in gerneral I
> guess Shale should not disappear, it is useful and people want and need
> the stuff which is in Shale, question is really is the developper and user
> community strong enough to keep Shale alive?
> I see what feedback I can get from the presentation.
>
> Bernhard
>
>
>

--
View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Shale-Status-tp15284955p15306344.html
Sent from the Shale - Dev mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

[samju]

I could not resist to post.
You talk about
* motivation. What do You think about new subproject Shale-RCP?
* Seam similar architecture. Which  Shale concepts did Seam implemented?
Was Shale created to elaborate JCreator?

Sam Julian


Greg Reddin-4 wrote:

>
> Shale is an open source project. It will never *die* unless the ASF
> dies or kills it and nobody copies the code over to some other
> repository. That's one of the main reasons we like open source. It's
> not dependent on the existence of any person, company, or
> organization.
>
> It's funny how the discussion that occurred here and on the MyFaces
> list has created all this buzz about "Shale is dying" and all that
> crap. The biggest problem we have (and I'm part of the problem) is
> that new people are not stepping up to the plate to contribute to the
> development process and many of the existing committers are doing
> other things and not contributing as much to the project.
>
> Of course, the project has reached a level of stability where no
> contribution is required to make the codebase inherently useful. Also
> similar architectures like Seam and Facelets are taking some
> Shale(ish) concepts and implementing them in other ways (with
> corporate support) thus making parts of Shale redundant. As Gary said
> some of the concepts of Shale are being introduced at spec level for
> the next gen of JSF and might make Shale even more redundant. So the
> motivation for people to step in and sling code is not necessarily
> huge - especially given some of the barriers to entry that are
> inherent in open source.
>
> I know the tone of this message is a bit short, but please don't
> detect any sense of anger or frustration in my thoughts. I'm just
> trying to explain that "inactivity != death". We're not like an infant
> whose arms and legs are always in motion unless he's asleep. We're
> more like old guys who sit on the porch and don't move unless our beer
> glass is empty :-) If we all stop committing for 6 months or even a
> year it does not mean the project is not being supported. In fact I'm
> using parts of it in production every day. You can bet if I find a bug
> I'll fix it - I just haven't found any yet in the stuff I'm using. The
> fact that I haven't committed to any of the other parts just means my
> time has been spent on other things (like watching an infant
> constantly move his arms and legs for no particular reason).
>
> I guess the bottom line is that Shale is not dead. If anybody is
> unhappy with a lack of activity then, by all means, we welcome
> activity.
>
> Greg
>
>

--
View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Shale-Status-tp15284955p15306356.html
Sent from the Shale - Dev mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

[Greg Reddin-4]

On Feb 6, 2008 4:12 AM, samju <julsamusa@...> wrote:
>
> * Seam similar architecture. Which  Shale concepts did Seam implemented?
> Was Shale created to elaborate JCreator?

Seam implements the annotations piece which is also in play for JSF
2.0. I think Seam also implements some of the concepts in the
ActionController. I can't remember about the Remoting. Some of the
ideas of the Dialog components are also present in Seam, but I don't
think they've taken it as far.

Greg

[Bernhard Slominski]

> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: Greg Reddin [mailto:gredbug@...]
> Gesendet: Dienstag, 5. Februar 2008 18:39
> An: dev@...
> Betreff: Re: AW: Shale Status
>

> We're not like an infant
> whose arms and legs are always in motion unless he's asleep. We're
> more like old guys who sit on the porch and don't move unless our beer
> glass is empty :-)

Greg, that's great!
Well maybe there is some step between the baby the and old man, so some movement without getting beer (hard to think though)!

Seriously: I think this question has been answered
> - Shale itsself
> Will it disappear as an Apache Top Level project?

Shale is used, is needed and is not dead!

Bernhard