Should persuasion be left to marketers?

[Robert Hoekman Jr]

Purely philosophical question:

I've been studying social psychology a lot lately, and have become
incredibly interested in the persuasiveness of sites and applications—how to
make them more persuasive, what makes them so now, etc. But it makes me
wonder:

Should the persuasive elements of a site design be left to marketers?
Assuming you work for a company who has a marketing department and a UX team
that are separate from each other, how much should the UX team be involved
in the design of persuasive elements?

-r-
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[Will Evans-3]

Should there be a natural tension between those tasked with creating great
experiences and those charged with selling something?

On Sun, Jul 6, 2008 at 3:57 PM, Robert Hoekman Jr <robert@...> wrote:

> Purely philosophical question:
>
> I've been studying social psychology a lot lately, and have become
> incredibly interested in the persuasiveness of sites and applications—how
> to
> make them more persuasive, what makes them so now, etc. But it makes me
> wonder:
>
> Should the persuasive elements of a site design be left to marketers?
> Assuming you work for a company who has a marketing department and a UX
> team
> that are separate from each other, how much should the UX team be involved
> in the design of persuasive elements?
>
> -r-
>
>

--
~ will

"Where you innovate, how you innovate,
and what you innovate are design problems"

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Will Evans | User Experience Architect
tel [phone] | will@...
twitter: https://twitter.com/semanticwill
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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[live-7]

Applied social psychologists consider what is best for the group (or  
users in this case.)

Do you?

On Jul 6, 2008, at 1:03 PM, Will Evans wrote:

> Should there be a natural tension between those tasked with creating  
> great
> experiences and those charged with selling something?
>
> On Sun, Jul 6, 2008 at 3:57 PM, Robert Hoekman Jr <robert@...>  
> wrote:
>
>> Purely philosophical question:
>>
>> I've been studying social psychology a lot lately, and have become
>> incredibly interested in the persuasiveness of sites and  
>> applications—how
>> to
>> make them more persuasive, what makes them so now, etc. But it  
>> makes me
>> wonder:
>>
>> Should the persuasive elements of a site design be left to marketers?
>> Assuming you work for a company who has a marketing department and  
>> a UX
>> team
>> that are separate from each other, how much should the UX team be  
>> involved
>> in the design of persuasive elements?
>>
>> -r-
>>
>>
> --
> ~ will
>
> "Where you innovate, how you innovate,
> and what you innovate are design problems"
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Will Evans | User Experience Architect
> tel [phone] | will@...
> twitter: https://twitter.com/semanticwill
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ________________________________________________________________
> Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)!
> To post to this list ....... discuss@...
> Unsubscribe ................ http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe
> List Guidelines ............ http://www.ixda.org/guidelines
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[mark schraad-2]

IMHO - different tasks require different perspectives and different  
goals for the site. In my situation where we have consumers (users)  
that do not contribute to the profitability of the site other than to  
attract the eyeballs for advertising, the user experience group's  
mission is somewhat in conflict with that of the ad sales group and  
to even some extent with the SEO group. Our goal is to match up the  
site to consumer's research and buying process, not to force them  
into what the industry or advertiser might be driving. We believe  
that if the site is compelling, the users will find their way to it,  
and the CPM's will happen over the long run. The ad folks often want  
us to design pages to accommodate and attract the advertisers.  
Meanwhile the SEO staff is wanting to make the page optimal for  
search engines. While there are similarities, designing for SEO,  
designing for advertisers, and designing for users will render  
different pages. Each of these three groups needs to bring their  
expertise to the table... and let executive management take on that  
'god's eye' perspective and render judgement that balances those  
separate agendas.

One of the most disturbing trends that I see is designer's rolling  
over on the user experience. I see designers that are all too  
empathetic with the pure goals of profit and the business... trying  
to take a short cut to immediate and short term profit that only  
destroys brand awareness, consumer loyalty and inevitably, the longer  
term sustainability and profitability of the site. This trend can be  
seen sites like about.com (and plenty of others) that used to have  
great information and now focus on attracting visitors from search  
engines and deliver very little value to users.

Specific to your question, yes the design team should work to not  
only the constraints of the business, but the goals within reason.

In our case I am using some extensive background in consumer behavior  
(research primarily from the psych field) and mapping our sites'  
functionality to typical consumer behavior in our target market. It  
effects both the interactions and information architecture. So far it  
has helped in managing the business model in a way that works for  
both the consumer's goals, and the monetization goals of the business  
(paper and conference talk to come soon I hope).

Mark



On Jul 6, 2008, at 3:57 PM, Robert Hoekman Jr wrote:

> Purely philosophical question:
>
> I've been studying social psychology a lot lately, and have become
> incredibly interested in the persuasiveness of sites and  
> applications—how to
> make them more persuasive, what makes them so now, etc. But it  
> makes me
> wonder:
>
> Should the persuasive elements of a site design be left to marketers?
> Assuming you work for a company who has a marketing department and  
> a UX team
> that are separate from each other, how much should the UX team be  
> involved
> in the design of persuasive elements?
>
> -r-
> ________________________________________________________________
> Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)!
> To post to this list ....... discuss@...
> Unsubscribe ................ http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe
> List Guidelines ............ http://www.ixda.org/guidelines
> List Help .................. http://www.ixda.org/help

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[live-7]

References, please.

> In our case I am using some extensive background in consumer  
> behavior (research primarily from the psych field) and mapping our  
> sites' functionality to typical consumer behavior in our target  
> market.
>
> On Jul 6, 2008, at 3:57 PM, Robert Hoekman Jr wrote:
>
>> Purely philosophical question:
>>
>> I've been studying social psychology a lot lately, and have become
>> incredibly interested in the persuasiveness of sites and  
>> applications—how to
>> make them more persuasive, what makes them so now, etc. But it  
>> makes me
>> wonder:
>>
>> Should the persuasive elements of a site design be left to marketers?
>> Assuming you work for a company who has a marketing department and  
>> a UX team
>> that are separate from each other, how much should the UX team be  
>> involved
>> in the design of persuasive elements?
>>
>> -r-
>> ________________________________________________________________
>> Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)!
>> To post to this list ....... discuss@...
>> Unsubscribe ................ http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe
>> List Guidelines ............ http://www.ixda.org/guidelines
>> List Help .................. http://www.ixda.org/help
>
> ________________________________________________________________
> Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)!
> To post to this list ....... discuss@...
> Unsubscribe ................ http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe
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[mark schraad-2]

There is a nice bibliography to get you started in the wikipedia  
entry for consumer behavior. I follow the Engel model pretty closely,  
and contrast it to the 'funnel'. The funnel is a fine model if you  
are interested in selling. It simplifies the process and emphasizes  
the direct route to purchase, which is really not what the consumer  
does.... but the point of most sales initiatives is to get to the  
point of a purchase as fast and inexpensively as is possible. You can  
probably see the inherent conflict between the two.

Mark


On Jul 6, 2008, at 4:52 PM, live wrote:

>
> References, please.
>
>> In our case I am using some extensive background in consumer  
>> behavior (research primarily from the psych field) and mapping our  
>> sites' functionality to typical consumer behavior in our target  
>> market.
>>
>> On Jul 6, 2008, at 3:57 PM, Robert Hoekman Jr wrote:
>>
>>> Purely philosophical question:
>>>
>>> I've been studying social psychology a lot lately, and have become
>>> incredibly interested in the persuasiveness of sites and  
>>> applications—how to
>>> make them more persuasive, what makes them so now, etc. But it  
>>> makes me
>>> wonder:
>>>
>>> Should the persuasive elements of a site design be left to  
>>> marketers?
>>> Assuming you work for a company who has a marketing department  
>>> and a UX team
>>> that are separate from each other, how much should the UX team be  
>>> involved
>>> in the design of persuasive elements?
>>>
>>> -r-
>>> ________________________________________________________________
>>> Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)!
>>> To post to this list ....... discuss@...
>>> Unsubscribe ................ http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe
>>> List Guidelines ............ http://www.ixda.org/guidelines
>>> List Help .................. http://www.ixda.org/help
>>
>> ________________________________________________________________
>> Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)!
>> To post to this list ....... discuss@...
>> Unsubscribe ................ http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe
>> List Guidelines ............ http://www.ixda.org/guidelines
>> List Help .................. http://www.ixda.org/help
>

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[Jeremy Yuille-2]

Richard Ziade has an interesting take on the relationship between
marketing and IxD at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCeL5ByBwt0
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[Steve Baty]

Robert,

I'm detecting an undertone of cynicism in the references to 'persuasive'
generally in this thread, and I don't agree with that basic premise. Let me
be really clear: all commercial sites - and by that I mean a broad
definition of 'commercial' as being that where a transaction of some sort
occurs - should be designed as a balance between business and user
interests. As UX professionals we *should not* delegate authority for a
major component of the experience to another team - we should be just as
interested in the execution of those business imperatives as we are with the
user imperatives.

If mean 'persuasive' in a perjorative sense then I think this is an ethical
decision we would each need to make individually in the circumstances. For
example, if a company or client wishes the UX design to deliberately
obfuscate or misrepresent some information so as to increase the likelihood
of a conversion.

Regards
Steve

2008/7/7 Robert Hoekman Jr <robert@...>:

> ... But it makes me wonder:
>
> Should the persuasive elements of a site design be left to marketers?
> Assuming you work for a company who has a marketing department and a UX
> team
> that are separate from each other, how much should the UX team be involved
> in the design of persuasive elements?
>
> -r-
>

--
----------------------------------------------
Steve 'Doc' Baty B.Sc (Maths), M.EC, MBA
Principal Consultant
Meld Consulting
M: [phone]
E: stevebaty@...

UX Statistics: http://uxstats.blogspot.com

Member, UPA - www.upassoc.org
Member, IA Institute - www.iainstitute.org
Member, IxDA - www.ixda.org
Contributor - UXMatters - www.uxmatters.com
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[Paul Eisen]

Relevant to this topic, Andrew Chak - an interactive architect - wrote a book in 2003 on web site design, with the fundamental premise that the experience designer's role is to not simply react to what user's think they want in a usable manner, but also to choreograph persuasive online experiences that compel users to modify their goals to increase the value derived by both the user and the business. (I hope I did his thesis justice in my summary; I haven't been close to this book in a while.)

http://www.amazon.com/Submit-Now-Designing-Persuasive-VOICES/dp/0735711704/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1215398882&sr=8-1

Paul Eisen
Principal User Experience Architect
tandemseven

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[Daniel Szuc]

"Should the persuasive elements of a site design be left to
marketers?"

Suggest part of this answer rests with the users of the product. If
the product delights and if there is real value they help persuade
others to use it. A reasonable proportion of trying services like
flickr, twitter, gmail, delicious etc have come through invites and
word of mouth. The rest is just the cherry on top :) In fact, expect
users are becoming smarter and even less susceptible to marketing.

Side note -- We have asked Product Teams if they actually use the
product they are working on? AND If they are not using it, why not?
(there are often some interesting underlying reasons as to why)

rgds,
Dan


. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Posted from the new ixda.org
http://www.ixda.org/discuss?post=31083


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[Jeff Howard]

A while back, Dan Lockton's blog "Architectures of Control"
cataloged some approaches to shaping behavior:

http://architectures.danlockton.co.uk/2006/11/09/design-approaches-for-shaping-behaviour-sticks-and-carrots/
http://tinyurl.com/arch01

http://architectures.danlockton.co.uk/2007/01/10/shaping-behaviour-part-2/
http://tinyurl.com/arch02

He also highlighted the UK's now-defunct RED project on shaping
behavior:
http://architectures.danlockton.co.uk/2006/09/28/shaping-behaviour-at-the-design-council/
http://tinyurl.com/red2006

// jeff


. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Posted from the new ixda.org
http://www.ixda.org/discuss?post=31083


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[Chauncey Wilson]

This is a good discussion.  B. J. Fogg's book, Persuasive Technology:
Using Computers to Change What we Think and Do (2003) addresses the
issue of making our products persuasive.  He addresses questions of
ethics in Chapter 9.  He highlights a heuristic for analyzing the
ethics of persuasive technologies.  The persuasiveness of a product is
definately part of the user experience.  Much of the work in social
psychology on the principles of persuasion apply to computer
technologies. Nearly any product involves either implicit or explicit
persuasive design since you want people to read something, buy
something, change attitudes about something, etc.  If you are a
consultant and you list papers that people can access, that is
persuasiveness technology to get you to hire that consultant or use
the consultant's products or change your attitudes toward the
consultant's expertise.

You might want to read Robert Cialdini's book on persuasion where he
delves into the real world application of social psychological
principles of persuasion to show how we are all susceptible to those
principles.  His book is:

Cialdini, R. B. (2001). Influence: Science and Practice. Boston: Allyn
and Bacon.

Cialdini describes how persuasion is enhanced by "likability", for
example  -- we are more persuaded by a person or product that we like
because of attractiveness, simillarity to us in some way,
compliments, and even constant contact.  These are all things that we
try to design into our products.

Fogg created the term "captology" to refer to "computers and
persuasive technology" and he and his students have been doing project
on how to effectively apply principles of persuasion to the design of
computer products.  If you do a search on Captology, you'll find other
examples of persuasive design.

These same principles apply to the relationships that we have with our
colleagues and can be used to make our recommendations more
persuasive.  I wrote about this a few years ago in "interactions"
magazine (SIGCHI magazine).  This is a very important topic and worth
some discussion or perhaps a session at the IxDA conference in
Vancouver.

Chauncey

On Sun, Jul 6, 2008 at 8:40 PM, Steve Baty <stevebaty@...> wrote:

> Robert,
>
> I'm detecting an undertone of cynicism in the references to 'persuasive'
> generally in this thread, and I don't agree with that basic premise. Let me
> be really clear: all commercial sites - and by that I mean a broad
> definition of 'commercial' as being that where a transaction of some sort
> occurs - should be designed as a balance between business and user
> interests. As UX professionals we *should not* delegate authority for a
> major component of the experience to another team - we should be just as
> interested in the execution of those business imperatives as we are with the
> user imperatives.
>
> If mean 'persuasive' in a perjorative sense then I think this is an ethical
> decision we would each need to make individually in the circumstances. For
> example, if a company or client wishes the UX design to deliberately
> obfuscate or misrepresent some information so as to increase the likelihood
> of a conversion.
>
> Regards
> Steve
>
> 2008/7/7 Robert Hoekman Jr <robert@...>:
>
>> ... But it makes me wonder:
>>
>> Should the persuasive elements of a site design be left to marketers?
>> Assuming you work for a company who has a marketing department and a UX
>> team
>> that are separate from each other, how much should the UX team be involved
>> in the design of persuasive elements?
>>
>> -r-
>>
>
>
>
> --
> ----------------------------------------------
> Steve 'Doc' Baty B.Sc (Maths), M.EC, MBA
> Principal Consultant
> Meld Consulting
> M: [phone]
> E: stevebaty@...
>
> UX Statistics: http://uxstats.blogspot.com
>
> Member, UPA - www.upassoc.org
> Member, IA Institute - www.iainstitute.org
> Member, IxDA - www.ixda.org
> Contributor - UXMatters - www.uxmatters.com
> ________________________________________________________________
> Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)!
> To post to this list ....... discuss@...
> Unsubscribe ................ http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe
> List Guidelines ............ http://www.ixda.org/guidelines
> List Help .................. http://www.ixda.org/help
>

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[Chauncey Wilson]

There is a new book out that relates to this topic:

Goldstein, N. J., Martin, Steve, J., & Cialdinia, R. B. (2008). Yes!:
50 scientifically proven ways to be persuasive. New York, NY: Free
press.

The title seems a little hokey, but the authors have solid credentials
and each of the 50 chapters has footnotes to research.

Chauncey

On Mon, Jul 7, 2008 at 5:53 AM, Chauncey Wilson
<chauncey.wilson@...> wrote:

> This is a good discussion.  B. J. Fogg's book, Persuasive Technology:
> Using Computers to Change What we Think and Do (2003) addresses the
> issue of making our products persuasive.  He addresses questions of
> ethics in Chapter 9.  He highlights a heuristic for analyzing the
> ethics of persuasive technologies.  The persuasiveness of a product is
> definately part of the user experience.  Much of the work in social
> psychology on the principles of persuasion apply to computer
> technologies. Nearly any product involves either implicit or explicit
> persuasive design since you want people to read something, buy
> something, change attitudes about something, etc.  If you are a
> consultant and you list papers that people can access, that is
> persuasiveness technology to get you to hire that consultant or use
> the consultant's products or change your attitudes toward the
> consultant's expertise.
>
> You might want to read Robert Cialdini's book on persuasion where he
> delves into the real world application of social psychological
> principles of persuasion to show how we are all susceptible to those
> principles.  His book is:
>
> Cialdini, R. B. (2001). Influence: Science and Practice. Boston: Allyn
> and Bacon.
>
> Cialdini describes how persuasion is enhanced by "likability", for
> example  -- we are more persuaded by a person or product that we like
> because of attractiveness, simillarity to us in some way,
> compliments, and even constant contact.  These are all things that we
> try to design into our products.
>
> Fogg created the term "captology" to refer to "computers and
> persuasive technology" and he and his students have been doing project
> on how to effectively apply principles of persuasion to the design of
> computer products.  If you do a search on Captology, you'll find other
> examples of persuasive design.
>
> These same principles apply to the relationships that we have with our
> colleagues and can be used to make our recommendations more
> persuasive.  I wrote about this a few years ago in "interactions"
> magazine (SIGCHI magazine).  This is a very important topic and worth
> some discussion or perhaps a session at the IxDA conference in
> Vancouver.
>
> Chauncey
>
> On Sun, Jul 6, 2008 at 8:40 PM, Steve Baty <stevebaty@...> wrote:
>> Robert,
>>
>> I'm detecting an undertone of cynicism in the references to 'persuasive'
>> generally in this thread, and I don't agree with that basic premise. Let me
>> be really clear: all commercial sites - and by that I mean a broad
>> definition of 'commercial' as being that where a transaction of some sort
>> occurs - should be designed as a balance between business and user
>> interests. As UX professionals we *should not* delegate authority for a
>> major component of the experience to another team - we should be just as
>> interested in the execution of those business imperatives as we are with the
>> user imperatives.
>>
>> If mean 'persuasive' in a perjorative sense then I think this is an ethical
>> decision we would each need to make individually in the circumstances. For
>> example, if a company or client wishes the UX design to deliberately
>> obfuscate or misrepresent some information so as to increase the likelihood
>> of a conversion.
>>
>> Regards
>> Steve
>>
>> 2008/7/7 Robert Hoekman Jr <robert@...>:
>>
>>> ... But it makes me wonder:
>>>
>>> Should the persuasive elements of a site design be left to marketers?
>>> Assuming you work for a company who has a marketing department and a UX
>>> team
>>> that are separate from each other, how much should the UX team be involved
>>> in the design of persuasive elements?
>>>
>>> -r-
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> ----------------------------------------------
>> Steve 'Doc' Baty B.Sc (Maths), M.EC, MBA
>> Principal Consultant
>> Meld Consulting
>> M: [phone]
>> E: stevebaty@...
>>
>> UX Statistics: http://uxstats.blogspot.com
>>
>> Member, UPA - www.upassoc.org
>> Member, IA Institute - www.iainstitute.org
>> Member, IxDA - www.ixda.org
>> Contributor - UXMatters - www.uxmatters.com
>> ________________________________________________________________
>> Welcome to the Interaction Design Association (IxDA)!
>> To post to this list ....... discuss@...
>> Unsubscribe ................ http://www.ixda.org/unsubscribe
>> List Guidelines ............ http://www.ixda.org/guidelines
>> List Help .................. http://www.ixda.org/help
>>
>

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[Jared Spool]

On Jul 6, 2008, at 3:57 PM, Robert Hoekman Jr wrote:

> Should the persuasive elements of a site design be left to marketers?

It's curious to me that you immediately equate "persuasive elements"  
with marketing. Design (good or bad) is *all about* persuasion.  
Helping a user to see and click on the button that takes them to the  
next step is a persuasive act.

So, I'm assuming that most of the "persuasive elements" of the site's  
design are actually in the hands of the designer.

Now, over the years, we've looked at this topic closely. Here are some  
articles we've published on it from year's past:

   The Search for Seducible Moments (2002): http://tinyurl.com/6b695t

   Guiding Users with Persuasive Design - An Interview with Andrew  
Chak (2003): http://tinyurl.com/6lj4xg

   The Power of Persuasive Momentum (2005): http://tinyurl.com/64m2vy

   Thinking Beyond Conversion (2006): http://tinyurl.com/ht2bv

   The Conversion Funnel - Is Your Web App Successful: http://tinyurl.com/yy87uy

Persuasion is a critical part of design. In my opinion, it doesn't  
belong to any particular job title or company department, any more  
than any other part of the user experience does.

> Assuming you work for a company who has a marketing department and a  
> UX team
> that are separate from each other, how much should the UX team be  
> involved
> in the design of persuasive elements?

I think the assumption here is flawed. Our research into great  
experience design show that if you work for a company that has a  
marketing department that is so separated from the UX team that they  
aren't involved in all aspects of the site's design, it's unlikely  
you'll produce a great user experience on any dimension. Persuasion,  
at that point, is the least of your worries.

Jared

Jared M. Spool
User Interface Engineering
510 Turnpike St., Suite 102, North Andover, MA 01845
e: jspool@... p: [phone]
http://uie.com  Blog: http://uie.com/brainsparks

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[Peter Merholz]

I was just about to respond with almost exactly what Jared said,  
though with far fewer links to Jared's material.

Persuasion is inherent in design, particularly interaction design,  
particularly web design. Along with Jared's research, I suggest  
dipping into the work that BJ Fogg has been leading. Someone already  
mentioned his _Persuasive Technology_ book. More recently he's been  
researching mobile persuasion, which is quite interesting, because it  
intersects the personal (mobile device that becomes part of who *you*  
are) with the persuasive (others trying to get you to engage in  
certain ways).

http://www.mobilepersuasion.com/

The primary value that we as designers bring to business is the  
ability to create design interventions that encourage people to behave  
in ways that are both in the interest of user and in the interest of  
the business. Such efforts require persuasion.

In an attention economy, every business offering, be it a product or  
service, needs to persuade people that it is worth their time.  
Interaction design is a primary tool for that.

--peter

On Jul 7, 2008, at 7:05 AM, Jared Spool wrote:

>
> On Jul 6, 2008, at 3:57 PM, Robert Hoekman Jr wrote:
>
>> Should the persuasive elements of a site design be left to marketers?
>
> It's curious to me that you immediately equate "persuasive elements"  
> with marketing. Design (good or bad) is *all about* persuasion.  
> Helping a user to see and click on the button that takes them to the  
> next step is a persuasive act.
>
> So, I'm assuming that most of the "persuasive elements" of the  
> site's design are actually in the hands of the designer.
>
> Now, over the years, we've looked at this topic closely. Here are  
> some articles we've published on it from year's past:
>
>   ...

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[Thomas Petersen-2]

Good products sell themselves. So the better a company is at creating
any given product or service with as much thinking around those small
subtle points already in the conceptual stage the better.

Copy-writing should be at least something that you have an opinion
about even more so how to help the marketeer simplify his/her
messaging which I guess is as much an information design skill.

For instance if a bullet point paragraph contains two different
points maybe it is better to actually create two bullet points.


. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Posted from the new ixda.org
http://www.ixda.org/discuss?post=31083


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[Uday Gajendar-3]

On Jul 7, 2008, at 7:39 AM, Peter Merholz wrote:
> The primary value that we as designers bring to business is the  
> ability to create design interventions that encourage people to  
> behave in ways that are both in the interest of user and in the  
> interest of the business. Such efforts require persuasion.
>
> In an attention economy, every business offering, be it a product or  
> service, needs to persuade people that it is worth their time.  
> Interaction design is a primary tool for that.


Exactly! Design is an inherently persuasive activity, particularly if  
you follow the humanist rhetorical perspective of design, based upon  
classical argument...which is just persuading people! :-) And the  
perils of the Attention Economy reveals powerfully why (interaction /  
interface) design as a "persuasive art" is more critical now then ever  
before--for businesses and people alike.  Especially as digital  
experiences proliferate and expand from desktop to mobile to kiosk  
to... whatever else. The iTunes ecosystem (imho) is a brilliant  
example of how the simple, central argument of "digital music  
lifestyle" has permeated their visual, digital, and product design and  
marketing messaging (all driven by design) persuading people to adopt  
Apple's offerings and become loyal to it (altho some of it is due to  
technical lock-in, etc. ;-) hey, that's part of the persuasion too!  
All deliberately designed/choreographed to fit into seamless whole.

I touch upon rhetorical persuasion in a boxesandarrows article about  
rich digital product experiences: http://www.boxesandarrows.com/view/what-does-rich-mean

And of course Dick Buchanan has a far better explanation of this  
viewpoint:
http://id.bobulate.com/readings/gooddesign.pdf

Enjoy...

Uday Gajendar
Sr. Interaction Designer
Voice Technology Group
Cisco | San Jose



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[Robert Hoekman Jr]

Some responses to all your responses so far.

1. I've read both of Cialdini's books, as well as Submit Now (Chak).
2. I fully believe Marketing and IxD should work together, and that you
can't produce a great "experience" without this cooperation.
3. I realize persuasion is inherent to design.
4. As an IxD, I obsess over persuasiveness, and I strive to make my clients
obsess over it as well.

That said, I've noticed, in a 3rd-person sort of way, that I often imply a
split between an application and the surrounding content. As in, there are
application elements, and then there are the things that go on on "the
marketing pages". I don't know when or why I started doing this, and I'm not
sure I even believe there's a real difference—it's just something I've
noticed myself saying to others. Ultimately, I design both "sides", so the
split is unimportant at best, but having caught myself saying this, I wanted
to explore it.

So how have I been defining "marketing pages"? In an app with a structure
like Basecamp or Blinksale, let's say, the marketing pages are the homepage,
About Us, Learn More, testimonials, registration — things that exist purely
to encourage unregistered users to convert and to support conversion tasks.
Obviously, not every app has marketing pages, but you get the idea.

Yes, I design these things, and I'm confident in my ability to do it well,
so why am I asking if I think persuasive elements should be left to
Marketing? Well, because it seems like — and maybe I'm just dead wrong —
that marketers would/should know more about persuasion than IxDs. I mean,
their whole careers are about persuading people to do things they may or may
not realize they want to do, right? So it seems like they would need to be
masterful persuaders to succeed.

Granted, most of the marketers I've seen couldn't market their way out of a
cardboard box. But they should know a lot about persuasion, no?

-r-
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[Jared Spool]

On Jul 7, 2008, at 1:19 PM, Robert Hoekman Jr wrote:

> Granted, most of the marketers I've seen couldn't market their way  
> out of a
> cardboard box. But they should know a lot about persuasion, no?

I've said it before and I'll say it again:

People who aren't good at what they do produce crappy results.

If a marketer can't "market their way out of a cardboard box," why  
should they know anything useful about persuasion?

:)

Jared

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[mark schraad-2]

I hope I am not skewing or shifting the point of this argument. But I
think the question I am hearing Robert ask is. "who does the designer
work for?" Is it the user, or is it the business in general. And I
think the answer depends upon the business culture you are working on,
and to some extent whether you are an innie or an outie.

In my particular environment... it is left up to design to maintain
the user perspective. There are plenty of others here worrying about
shareholders, advertisers, revenue partners and search engines.

Personally, I like to wear the use advocacy hat when I am in the
meetings discussing the design problem or the solutions, but I have
the ability to get out my shareholder hat or my revenue hat when I
need to balance that perspective.

That you will influence or persuade in your design efforts is a given.
But what tact and what position will you operate from greatly
determines your success in this role, and the success of the product.

Mark



On Mon, Jul 7, 2008 at 1:19 PM, Robert Hoekman Jr <robert@...> wrote:

> Some responses to all your responses so far.
>
> 1. I've read both of Cialdini's books, as well as Submit Now (Chak).
> 2. I fully believe Marketing and IxD should work together, and that you
> can't produce a great "experience" without this cooperation.
> 3. I realize persuasion is inherent to design.
> 4. As an IxD, I obsess over persuasiveness, and I strive to make my clients
> obsess over it as well.
>
> That said, I've noticed, in a 3rd-person sort of way, that I often imply a
> split between an application and the surrounding content. As in, there are
> application elements, and then there are the things that go on on "the
> marketing pages". I don't know when or why I started doing this, and I'm not
> sure I even believe there's a real difference—it's just something I've
> noticed myself saying to others. Ultimately, I design both "sides", so the
> split is unimportant at best, but having caught myself saying this, I wanted
> to explore it.
>
> So how have I been defining "marketing pages"? In an app with a structure
> like Basecamp or Blinksale, let's say, the marketing pages are the homepage,
> About Us, Learn More, testimonials, registration — things that exist purely
> to encourage unregistered users to convert and to support conversion tasks.
> Obviously, not every app has marketing pages, but you get the idea.
>
> Yes, I design these things, and I'm confident in my ability to do it well,
> so why am I asking if I think persuasive elements should be left to
> Marketing? Well, because it seems like — and maybe I'm just dead wrong —
> that marketers would/should know more about persuasion than IxDs. I mean,
> their whole careers are about persuading people to do things they may or may
> not realize they want to do, right? So it seems like they would need to be
> masterful persuaders to succeed.
>
> Granted, most of the marketers I've seen couldn't market their way out of a
> cardboard box. But they should know a lot about persuasion, no?
>
> -r-

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