Should we move to git? How about now?

[Bharat Mediratta]

We've been toying with the idea of moving to Git for some time now.  I
did some reading, went and got an account on github and set up a repository:

http://github.com/bharatman/gallery3/tree/master

Notes:
* This is a clean svn export of r20902
* There's no revision history here from svn
* There's no branching, tagging or vendor branch strategy in place

Why Git?  It offers low-cost forking, which means that it would be much
easier for people to maintain their own version of Gallery that supports
Postgres or Windows, etc and we don't have to do much more than just
make it easy for them.

Why GitHub and not sf.net's git offering?  It looks like github has more
momentum in the Git hosting arena than sourceforge does.  We should go
where the community is.

Why now?  Why not.  We should do it sometime and there'll never be a
good time.  Might as well just bite the bullet and get it over with.

Why just Gallery 3?  We could import everything.  But why bother?  It
would be *very* slow (remember the CVS to SVN migration?) and we'll
always have the svn history on sf.net to fall back on, and as far as I'm
concerned, Gallery 3 is a huge new chapter in the Gallery book so we
should take this opportunity to make a change.  We could probably do
some tricks to move it all over-- I'll experiment with it.

How do you use git?  It's pretty easy, coming from Subversion.  Here's a
crash course:  http://git.or.cz/course/svn.html

We're going to have to have a strategy for vendor branches.  I'll fool
around with getting that right.  I estimate that it'll be about 6 hours
of work to get everything squared away, including at least some of the
various docs.  For most of our regular committers, we'll set it up so
that you just do a merge back to the github repo just like you did with
subversion.

thoughts?
-Bharat

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Register Now for Creativity and Technology (CaT), June 3rd, NYC. CaT
is a gathering of tech-side developers & brand creativity professionals. Meet
the minds behind Google Creative Lab, Visual Complexity, Processing, &
iPhoneDevCamp asthey present alongside digital heavyweights like Barbarian
Group, R/GA, & Big Spaceship. http://www.creativitycat.com 
__[ g a l l e r y - d e v e l ]_________________________

[ list info/archive --> http://gallery.sf.net/lists.php ]
[ gallery info/FAQ/download --> http://gallery.sf.net ]

[Romain LE DISEZ-5]

If you choose to move to git, isn't it the opportunity to review the
organisation of the website ?

Currently, IMHO, it is difficult to find someting. There are
gallery.menalto.com, codex.gallery2.org, multiple tracker (sf.net,
Trac), multiple code browser (sf.net, fisheye3.cenqua.com), ...

Could you think of something like gallery-project.org (it is available)
which will host the website, the forum, the git repo and a Redmine. So
it will be clear and easy to find what we search for.

With your own domain, you can even think to create subdomains of
forge.gallery-project.org for the most important project/branch around
Gallery, like a forge.

Greetings.

Le jeudi 21 mai 2009 à 18:41 -0700, Bharat Mediratta a écrit :

> We've been toying with the idea of moving to Git for some time now.  I
> did some reading, went and got an account on github and set up a repository:
>
> http://github.com/bharatman/gallery3/tree/master
>
> Notes:
> * This is a clean svn export of r20902
> * There's no revision history here from svn
> * There's no branching, tagging or vendor branch strategy in place
>
> Why Git?  It offers low-cost forking, which means that it would be much
> easier for people to maintain their own version of Gallery that supports
> Postgres or Windows, etc and we don't have to do much more than just
> make it easy for them.
>
> Why GitHub and not sf.net's git offering?  It looks like github has more
> momentum in the Git hosting arena than sourceforge does.  We should go
> where the community is.
>
> Why now?  Why not.  We should do it sometime and there'll never be a
> good time.  Might as well just bite the bullet and get it over with.
>
> Why just Gallery 3?  We could import everything.  But why bother?  It
> would be *very* slow (remember the CVS to SVN migration?) and we'll
> always have the svn history on sf.net to fall back on, and as far as I'm
> concerned, Gallery 3 is a huge new chapter in the Gallery book so we
> should take this opportunity to make a change.  We could probably do
> some tricks to move it all over-- I'll experiment with it.
>
> How do you use git?  It's pretty easy, coming from Subversion.  Here's a
> crash course:  http://git.or.cz/course/svn.html
>
> We're going to have to have a strategy for vendor branches.  I'll fool
> around with getting that right.  I estimate that it'll be about 6 hours
> of work to get everything squared away, including at least some of the
> various docs.  For most of our regular committers, we'll set it up so
> that you just do a merge back to the github repo just like you did with
> subversion.
>
> thoughts?
> -Bharat
>

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Register Now for Creativity and Technology (CaT), June 3rd, NYC. CaT
is a gathering of tech-side developers & brand creativity professionals. Meet
the minds behind Google Creative Lab, Visual Complexity, Processing, &
iPhoneDevCamp asthey present alongside digital heavyweights like Barbarian
Group, R/GA, & Big Spaceship. http://www.creativitycat.com 
__[ g a l l e r y - d e v e l ]_________________________

[ list info/archive --> http://gallery.sf.net/lists.php ]
[ gallery info/FAQ/download --> http://gallery.sf.net ]

[Jens A. Tkotz]

Hi,

_i_ do not see a big if not any relation to the change to a different sourcecode handling tool.

Don't get me wrong, your ideas are great, but are a complete different tasks, or?


Regards,

Jens


Romain LE DISEZ schrieb:

> If you choose to move to git, isn't it the opportunity to review the
> organisation of the website ?
>
> Currently, IMHO, it is difficult to find someting. There are
> gallery.menalto.com, codex.gallery2.org, multiple tracker (sf.net,
> Trac), multiple code browser (sf.net, fisheye3.cenqua.com), ...
>
> Could you think of something like gallery-project.org (it is available)
> which will host the website, the forum, the git repo and a Redmine. So
> it will be clear and easy to find what we search for.
>
> With your own domain, you can even think to create subdomains of
> forge.gallery-project.org for the most important project/branch around
> Gallery, like a forge.
>
> Greetings.
>
> Le jeudi 21 mai 2009 à 18:41 -0700, Bharat Mediratta a écrit :
>> We've been toying with the idea of moving to Git for some time now.  I
>> did some reading, went and got an account on github and set up a repository:
>>
>> http://github.com/bharatman/gallery3/tree/master
>>
>> Notes:
>> * This is a clean svn export of r20902
>> * There's no revision history here from svn
>> * There's no branching, tagging or vendor branch strategy in place
>>
>> Why Git?  It offers low-cost forking, which means that it would be much
>> easier for people to maintain their own version of Gallery that supports
>> Postgres or Windows, etc and we don't have to do much more than just
>> make it easy for them.
>>
>> Why GitHub and not sf.net's git offering?  It looks like github has more
>> momentum in the Git hosting arena than sourceforge does.  We should go
>> where the community is.
>>
>> Why now?  Why not.  We should do it sometime and there'll never be a
>> good time.  Might as well just bite the bullet and get it over with.
>>
>> Why just Gallery 3?  We could import everything.  But why bother?  It
>> would be *very* slow (remember the CVS to SVN migration?) and we'll
>> always have the svn history on sf.net to fall back on, and as far as I'm
>> concerned, Gallery 3 is a huge new chapter in the Gallery book so we
>> should take this opportunity to make a change.  We could probably do
>> some tricks to move it all over-- I'll experiment with it.
>>
>> How do you use git?  It's pretty easy, coming from Subversion.  Here's a
>> crash course:  http://git.or.cz/course/svn.html
>>
>> We're going to have to have a strategy for vendor branches.  I'll fool
>> around with getting that right.  I estimate that it'll be about 6 hours
>> of work to get everything squared away, including at least some of the
>> various docs.  For most of our regular committers, we'll set it up so
>> that you just do a merge back to the github repo just like you did with
>> subversion.
>>
>> thoughts?
>> -Bharat
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Register Now for Creativity and Technology (CaT), June 3rd, NYC. CaT
> is a gathering of tech-side developers & brand creativity professionals. Meet
> the minds behind Google Creative Lab, Visual Complexity, Processing, &
> iPhoneDevCamp asthey present alongside digital heavyweights like Barbarian
> Group, R/GA, & Big Spaceship. http://www.creativitycat.com 
> __[ g a l l e r y - d e v e l ]_________________________
>
> [ list info/archive --> http://gallery.sf.net/lists.php ]
> [ gallery info/FAQ/download --> http://gallery.sf.net ]

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Register Now for Creativity and Technology (CaT), June 3rd, NYC. CaT
is a gathering of tech-side developers & brand creativity professionals. Meet
the minds behind Google Creative Lab, Visual Complexity, Processing, &
iPhoneDevCamp asthey present alongside digital heavyweights like Barbarian
Group, R/GA, & Big Spaceship. http://www.creativitycat.com 
__[ g a l l e r y - d e v e l ]_________________________

[ list info/archive --> http://gallery.sf.net/lists.php ]
[ gallery info/FAQ/download --> http://gallery.sf.net ]

[Jens A. Tkotz]

Hi Bart,

you just offer one reason - in this mail - right?
Thats the forking thing.
I am no expert in GIT, i just have to use it, because horde4 uses it.

Are there other advantages which makes you want to move over to git?
Do you saw disadvantages so far?
Is there a similar thing like a revision or version number other than this cryptic
"d81585e339eda749a6c58b5a2cdf361d61d548af" ?

Regards,

Jens


Bharat Mediratta schrieb:

> We've been toying with the idea of moving to Git for some time now.  I
> did some reading, went and got an account on github and set up a repository:
>
> http://github.com/bharatman/gallery3/tree/master
>
> Notes:
> * This is a clean svn export of r20902
> * There's no revision history here from svn
> * There's no branching, tagging or vendor branch strategy in place
>
> Why Git?  It offers low-cost forking, which means that it would be much
> easier for people to maintain their own version of Gallery that supports
> Postgres or Windows, etc and we don't have to do much more than just
> make it easy for them.
>
> Why GitHub and not sf.net's git offering?  It looks like github has more
> momentum in the Git hosting arena than sourceforge does.  We should go
> where the community is.
>
> Why now?  Why not.  We should do it sometime and there'll never be a
> good time.  Might as well just bite the bullet and get it over with.
>
> Why just Gallery 3?  We could import everything.  But why bother?  It
> would be *very* slow (remember the CVS to SVN migration?) and we'll
> always have the svn history on sf.net to fall back on, and as far as I'm
> concerned, Gallery 3 is a huge new chapter in the Gallery book so we
> should take this opportunity to make a change.  We could probably do
> some tricks to move it all over-- I'll experiment with it.
>
> How do you use git?  It's pretty easy, coming from Subversion.  Here's a
> crash course:  http://git.or.cz/course/svn.html
>
> We're going to have to have a strategy for vendor branches.  I'll fool
> around with getting that right.  I estimate that it'll be about 6 hours
> of work to get everything squared away, including at least some of the
> various docs.  For most of our regular committers, we'll set it up so
> that you just do a merge back to the github repo just like you did with
> subversion.
>
> thoughts?
> -Bharat
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Register Now for Creativity and Technology (CaT), June 3rd, NYC. CaT
> is a gathering of tech-side developers & brand creativity professionals. Meet
> the minds behind Google Creative Lab, Visual Complexity, Processing, &
> iPhoneDevCamp asthey present alongside digital heavyweights like Barbarian
> Group, R/GA, & Big Spaceship. http://www.creativitycat.com 
> __[ g a l l e r y - d e v e l ]_________________________
>
> [ list info/archive --> http://gallery.sf.net/lists.php ]
> [ gallery info/FAQ/download --> http://gallery.sf.net ]

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Register Now for Creativity and Technology (CaT), June 3rd, NYC. CaT
is a gathering of tech-side developers & brand creativity professionals. Meet
the minds behind Google Creative Lab, Visual Complexity, Processing, &
iPhoneDevCamp asthey present alongside digital heavyweights like Barbarian
Group, R/GA, & Big Spaceship. http://www.creativitycat.com 
__[ g a l l e r y - d e v e l ]_________________________

[ list info/archive --> http://gallery.sf.net/lists.php ]
[ gallery info/FAQ/download --> http://gallery.sf.net ]

[Romain LE DISEZ-5]

Le vendredi 22 mai 2009 à 14:27 +0200, Jens A. Tkotz a écrit :
> Don't get me wrong, your ideas are great, but are a complete different tasks, or?

Sure, there is no relation between changing the VCS and restructuring
the website.

But, it could be a good starting point : take a server, a clean domain,
and put the VCS on it. Later in time you could add the project
management application, and finally migrate the website.

I suggest it because I really feel lost when I'm on the website.

How is hosted the website for now. Is it a dedicated or mutualised
server ? Can you connect to it to install an application ?

Greetings.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Register Now for Creativity and Technology (CaT), June 3rd, NYC. CaT
is a gathering of tech-side developers & brand creativity professionals. Meet
the minds behind Google Creative Lab, Visual Complexity, Processing, &
iPhoneDevCamp asthey present alongside digital heavyweights like Barbarian
Group, R/GA, & Big Spaceship. http://www.creativitycat.com 
__[ g a l l e r y - d e v e l ]_________________________

[ list info/archive --> http://gallery.sf.net/lists.php ]
[ gallery info/FAQ/download --> http://gallery.sf.net ]

[Andy Staudacher-3]

I have no experience with git & github yet, but going with distributed source control for Gallery 3 makes a lot of sense.

I'm all for it, but have some questions.

I'm unfamiliar with github...

- Will there be another blessed master tree or is "http://github.com/bharatman/gallery3/tree/master" the official Gallery 3 source tree?

- If it's indeed http://github.com/bharatman/gallery3/tree/master, does that mean that you'll be the only maintainer of the master tree, picking up changes from other developers' master trees?

- For now, we'll continue committing to SF's svn and then sometime next week or so we'll do the migration and stop committing g3 stuff to svn?

 - Andy

On Fri, May 22, 2009 at 3:41 AM, Bharat Mediratta <bharat@...> wrote:

We've been toying with the idea of moving to Git for some time now.  I
did some reading, went and got an account on github and set up a repository:

http://github.com/bharatman/gallery3/tree/master

Notes:
* This is a clean svn export of r20902
* There's no revision history here from svn
* There's no branching, tagging or vendor branch strategy in place

Why Git?  It offers low-cost forking, which means that it would be much
easier for people to maintain their own version of Gallery that supports
Postgres or Windows, etc and we don't have to do much more than just
make it easy for them.

Why GitHub and not sf.net's git offering?  It looks like github has more
momentum in the Git hosting arena than sourceforge does.  We should go
where the community is.

Why now?  Why not.  We should do it sometime and there'll never be a
good time.  Might as well just bite the bullet and get it over with.

Why just Gallery 3?  We could import everything.  But why bother?  It
would be *very* slow (remember the CVS to SVN migration?) and we'll
always have the svn history on sf.net to fall back on, and as far as I'm
concerned, Gallery 3 is a huge new chapter in the Gallery book so we
should take this opportunity to make a change.  We could probably do
some tricks to move it all over-- I'll experiment with it.

How do you use git?  It's pretty easy, coming from Subversion.  Here's a
crash course:  http://git.or.cz/course/svn.html

We're going to have to have a strategy for vendor branches.  I'll fool
around with getting that right.  I estimate that it'll be about 6 hours
of work to get everything squared away, including at least some of the
various docs.  For most of our regular committers, we'll set it up so
that you just do a merge back to the github repo just like you did with
subversion.

thoughts?
-Bharat

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Register Now for Creativity and Technology (CaT), June 3rd, NYC. CaT
is a gathering of tech-side developers & brand creativity professionals. Meet
the minds behind Google Creative Lab, Visual Complexity, Processing, &
iPhoneDevCamp asthey present alongside digital heavyweights like Barbarian
Group, R/GA, & Big Spaceship. http://www.creativitycat.com
__[ g a l l e r y - d e v e l ]_________________________

[ list info/archive --> http://gallery.sf.net/lists.php ]
[ gallery info/FAQ/download --> http://gallery.sf.net ]

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Register Now for Creativity and Technology (CaT), June 3rd, NYC. CaT
is a gathering of tech-side developers & brand creativity professionals. Meet
the minds behind Google Creative Lab, Visual Complexity, Processing, &
iPhoneDevCamp asthey present alongside digital heavyweights like Barbarian
Group, R/GA, & Big Spaceship. http://www.creativitycat.com 
__[ g a l l e r y - d e v e l ]_________________________

[ list info/archive --> http://gallery.sf.net/lists.php ]
[ gallery info/FAQ/download --> http://gallery.sf.net ]

[Chris Kelly-2]

Romain LE DISEZ wrote:

> Le vendredi 22 mai 2009 à 14:27 +0200, Jens A. Tkotz a écrit :
>> Don't get me wrong, your ideas are great, but are a complete different tasks, or?
>
> Sure, there is no relation between changing the VCS and restructuring
> the website.
>
> But, it could be a good starting point : take a server, a clean domain,
> and put the VCS on it. Later in time you could add the project
> management application, and finally migrate the website.
>
> I suggest it because I really feel lost when I'm on the website.
>
> How is hosted the website for now. Is it a dedicated or mutualised
> server ? Can you connect to it to install an application ?

We (Gallery) own http://www.galleryproject.org/.   Theres a
long term plan for some consistency in our web presences
that has been delayed by Gallery 3 and working through
different systems for project management (sf.net trackers,
Chandler, trac).  Right now, the top priority is  getting
Gallery 3 out the door and everyone with time to spare is
busy working on that.

-Chris

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Register Now for Creativity and Technology (CaT), June 3rd, NYC. CaT
is a gathering of tech-side developers & brand creativity professionals. Meet
the minds behind Google Creative Lab, Visual Complexity, Processing, &
iPhoneDevCamp asthey present alongside digital heavyweights like Barbarian
Group, R/GA, & Big Spaceship. http://www.creativitycat.com 
__[ g a l l e r y - d e v e l ]_________________________

[ list info/archive --> http://gallery.sf.net/lists.php ]
[ gallery info/FAQ/download --> http://gallery.sf.net ]

[Romain LE DISEZ-5]

Le vendredi 22 mai 2009 à 10:33 -0400, Chris Kelly a écrit :
> We (Gallery) own http://www.galleryproject.org/.   Theres a
> long term plan for some consistency in our web presences
> that has been delayed by Gallery 3 and working through
> different systems for project management (sf.net trackers,
> Chandler, trac).

Fine. That's a good news.

> Right now, the top priority is  getting
> Gallery 3 out the door and everyone with time to spare is
> busy working on that.

Sure, I understand that. What is a cool website if there is nothing to
download ? :-D

I will be happy to help if you need it. I'm a sysadmin, I work for a
french hosting company.

Greetings.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Register Now for Creativity and Technology (CaT), June 3rd, NYC. CaT
is a gathering of tech-side developers & brand creativity professionals. Meet
the minds behind Google Creative Lab, Visual Complexity, Processing, &
iPhoneDevCamp asthey present alongside digital heavyweights like Barbarian
Group, R/GA, & Big Spaceship. http://www.creativitycat.com 
__[ g a l l e r y - d e v e l ]_________________________

[ list info/archive --> http://gallery.sf.net/lists.php ]
[ gallery info/FAQ/download --> http://gallery.sf.net ]

[Jake Conner]

I am also happy to help with any redesign/refurbishment/reimagining of  
the Gallery project site.

Jake


On May 22, 2009, at 10:39 AM, Romain LE DISEZ wrote:

> Le vendredi 22 mai 2009 à 10:33 -0400, Chris Kelly a écrit :
>> We (Gallery) own http://www.galleryproject.org/.   Theres a
>> long term plan for some consistency in our web presences
>> that has been delayed by Gallery 3 and working through
>> different systems for project management (sf.net trackers,
>> Chandler, trac).
>
> Fine. That's a good news.
>
>> Right now, the top priority is  getting
>> Gallery 3 out the door and everyone with time to spare is
>> busy working on that.
>
> Sure, I understand that. What is a cool website if there is nothing to
> download ? :-D
>
> I will be happy to help if you need it. I'm a sysadmin, I work for a
> french hosting company.
>
> Greetings.
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Register Now for Creativity and Technology (CaT), June 3rd, NYC. CaT
> is a gathering of tech-side developers & brand creativity  
> professionals. Meet
> the minds behind Google Creative Lab, Visual Complexity, Processing, &
> iPhoneDevCamp asthey present alongside digital heavyweights like  
> Barbarian
> Group, R/GA, & Big Spaceship. http://www.creativitycat.com
> __[ g a l l e r y - d e v e l ]_________________________
>
> [ list info/archive --> http://gallery.sf.net/lists.php ]
> [ gallery info/FAQ/download --> http://gallery.sf.net ]

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Register Now for Creativity and Technology (CaT), June 3rd, NYC. CaT
is a gathering of tech-side developers & brand creativity professionals. Meet
the minds behind Google Creative Lab, Visual Complexity, Processing, &
iPhoneDevCamp asthey present alongside digital heavyweights like Barbarian
Group, R/GA, & Big Spaceship. http://www.creativitycat.com 
__[ g a l l e r y - d e v e l ]_________________________

[ list info/archive --> http://gallery.sf.net/lists.php ]
[ gallery info/FAQ/download --> http://gallery.sf.net ]

[Chad Kieffer-3]

I'm all for this. Like Andy, my questions focus on admin and workflow  
changes. Before the move, I'd just like to see a recommended workflow  
developed which highlights the signicant changes from our current  
SF.net SVN workflow and tools.

On May 21, 2009, at 7:41 PM, Bharat Mediratta <bharat@...>  
wrote:

>
> We've been toying with the idea of moving to Git for some time now.  I
> did some reading, went and got an account on github and set up a  
> repository:
>
> http://github.com/bharatman/gallery3/tree/master
>
> Notes:
> * This is a clean svn export of r20902
> * There's no revision history here from svn
> * There's no branching, tagging or vendor branch strategy in place
>
> Why Git?  It offers low-cost forking, which means that it would be  
> much
> easier for people to maintain their own version of Gallery that  
> supports
> Postgres or Windows, etc and we don't have to do much more than just
> make it easy for them.
>
> Why GitHub and not sf.net's git offering?  It looks like github has  
> more
> momentum in the Git hosting arena than sourceforge does.  We should go
> where the community is.
>
> Why now?  Why not.  We should do it sometime and there'll never be a
> good time.  Might as well just bite the bullet and get it over with.
>
> Why just Gallery 3?  We could import everything.  But why bother?  It
> would be *very* slow (remember the CVS to SVN migration?) and we'll
> always have the svn history on sf.net to fall back on, and as far as  
> I'm
> concerned, Gallery 3 is a huge new chapter in the Gallery book so we
> should take this opportunity to make a change.  We could probably do
> some tricks to move it all over-- I'll experiment with it.
>
> How do you use git?  It's pretty easy, coming from Subversion.  
> Here's a
> crash course:  http://git.or.cz/course/svn.html
>
> We're going to have to have a strategy for vendor branches.  I'll fool
> around with getting that right.  I estimate that it'll be about 6  
> hours
> of work to get everything squared away, including at least some of the
> various docs.  For most of our regular committers, we'll set it up so
> that you just do a merge back to the github repo just like you did  
> with
> subversion.
>
> thoughts?
> -Bharat
>
> ---
> ---
> ---
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Register Now for Creativity and Technology (CaT), June 3rd, NYC. CaT
> is a gathering of tech-side developers & brand creativity  
> professionals. Meet
> the minds behind Google Creative Lab, Visual Complexity, Processing, &
> iPhoneDevCamp asthey present alongside digital heavyweights like  
> Barbarian
> Group, R/GA, & Big Spaceship. http://www.creativitycat.com
> __[ g a l l e r y - d e v e l ]_________________________
>
> [ list info/archive --> http://gallery.sf.net/lists.php ]
> [ gallery info/FAQ/download --> http://gallery.sf.net ]

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Register Now for Creativity and Technology (CaT), June 3rd, NYC. CaT
is a gathering of tech-side developers & brand creativity professionals. Meet
the minds behind Google Creative Lab, Visual Complexity, Processing, &
iPhoneDevCamp asthey present alongside digital heavyweights like Barbarian
Group, R/GA, & Big Spaceship. http://www.creativitycat.com 
__[ g a l l e r y - d e v e l ]_________________________

[ list info/archive --> http://gallery.sf.net/lists.php ]
[ gallery info/FAQ/download --> http://gallery.sf.net ]

[Bharat Mediratta]

Romain LE DISEZ wrote:
 > If you choose to move to git, isn't it the opportunity to review the
 > organisation of the website ?

Argh, you're hijacking the thread.

Let us separate these two conversations.  Reorganizing our website
presence is a fine idea, but it will take a *lot* of effort.  I am not
particularly motivated to work on that.  Anybody who is motivated to
work on that, please self-organize and put together a proposal for how
it will work so that we can discuss that.  Let's put all discussion of
that in a different thread.

-Bharat

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Register Now for Creativity and Technology (CaT), June 3rd, NYC. CaT
is a gathering of tech-side developers & brand creativity professionals. Meet
the minds behind Google Creative Lab, Visual Complexity, Processing, &
iPhoneDevCamp asthey present alongside digital heavyweights like Barbarian
Group, R/GA, & Big Spaceship. http://www.creativitycat.com 
__[ g a l l e r y - d e v e l ]_________________________

[ list info/archive --> http://gallery.sf.net/lists.php ]
[ gallery info/FAQ/download --> http://gallery.sf.net ]

[Bharat Mediratta]

Jens A. Tkotz wrote:
> Are there other advantages which makes you want to move over to git?
> Do you saw disadvantages so far?
> Is there a similar thing like a revision or version number other than
> this cryptic "d81585e339eda749a6c58b5a2cdf361d61d548af" ?

Ease of fork maintenance is the main reason to do this.  It allows us to
  choose to *not* support configurations like Postgres, Windows, etc
while still offering a relatively easy path for people who do.  If you
want Gallery 3 to run on Windows, you can easily fork and maintain your
own Gallery3+Windows distribution and if it gathers steam, we can easily
grab changes you've made and pull them back into the main distribution.

It would be much simpler for Romain to start innovating in his
Gallery3+Postgres branch, and if he does something cool that we want
(like his recently proposed theming patchs) we could just grab those
from his fork and roll them back in.  And anybody else who wants to use
Gallery3+Postgres would have a fork to track.

Andy Staudacher wrote:
> - Will there be another blessed master tree or is "http://github.com/bharatman/gallery3/tree/master" the official Gallery 3 source tree?
> - If it's indeed http://github.com/bharatman/gallery3/tree/master, does that mean that you'll be the only maintainer of the master tree, picking up changes from other developers' master trees?

We can use bharatman/gallery3 as the master.  I can grant all existing
svn committers "repository collaborator" status and then I believe you
can just commit back to my master repo.  It would be just like what we
have now.

> - For now, we'll continue committing to SF's svn and then sometime next week or so we'll do the migration and stop committing g3 stuff to svn?

That's what I was thinking.

Chad says:
> I'm all for this. Like Andy, my questions focus on admin and workflow  
> changes. Before the move, I'd just like to see a recommended workflow  
> developed which highlights the signicant changes from our current  
> SF.net SVN workflow and tools.

The basic workflow (if you're not doing branch merges, rollbacks,
working with vendor branches) will be the same.  If today you have a
Gallery3 tree in /var/www/gallery3/trunk, here's what you'd do to change
to git:

   $ cd /var/www
   $ mv gallery3 gallery3.old              # move old stuff away
   $ git@...:bharatman/gallery3.git # get the code (10 sec)
   $ emacs README                          # make a change
   $ git commit -m "changed!" README       # commit it to local repo
   $ git push                              # send your changes to github

There's a difference here in that with git you're actually dealing with
your own local git repo.  Your commits go to your repo.  It's only when
you do "git push" that you send your local changes back upstream to the
server.

I will update the vendor policies and document them so they'll be cut
and paste, like we have now.  We don't yet have solid branch/tag
policies for Gallery 3, so we can come up with something new there
pretty easily.

-Bharat

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Register Now for Creativity and Technology (CaT), June 3rd, NYC. CaT
is a gathering of tech-side developers & brand creativity professionals. Meet
the minds behind Google Creative Lab, Visual Complexity, Processing, &
iPhoneDevCamp asthey present alongside digital heavyweights like Barbarian
Group, R/GA, & Big Spaceship. http://www.creativitycat.com 
__[ g a l l e r y - d e v e l ]_________________________

[ list info/archive --> http://gallery.sf.net/lists.php ]
[ gallery info/FAQ/download --> http://gallery.sf.net ]

[Bharat Mediratta]

Bharat Mediratta wrote:
...
>    $ cd /var/www
>    $ mv gallery3 gallery3.old              # move old stuff away
>    $ git@...:bharatman/gallery3.git # get the code (10 sec)

Ooops, that should be:

   git clone git@...:bharatman/gallery3.git

>    $ emacs README                          # make a change
>    $ git commit -m "changed!" README       # commit it to local repo
>    $ git push                              # send your changes to github

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Register Now for Creativity and Technology (CaT), June 3rd, NYC. CaT
is a gathering of tech-side developers & brand creativity professionals. Meet
the minds behind Google Creative Lab, Visual Complexity, Processing, &
iPhoneDevCamp asthey present alongside digital heavyweights like Barbarian
Group, R/GA, & Big Spaceship. http://www.creativitycat.com 
__[ g a l l e r y - d e v e l ]_________________________

[ list info/archive --> http://gallery.sf.net/lists.php ]
[ gallery info/FAQ/download --> http://gallery.sf.net ]

[Bharat Mediratta]

Bharat Mediratta wrote:
> Bharat Mediratta wrote:
> ...
>>    $ cd /var/www
>>    $ mv gallery3 gallery3.old              # move old stuff away
>>    $ git@...:bharatman/gallery3.git # get the code (10 sec)
>
> Ooops, that should be:
>
>    git clone git@...:bharatman/gallery3.git

Two updates:

1) The folks at GitHub were nice enough to evict the squatter on my
desired username so now my username is "bharat" and the url is:

    http://github.com/bharat/gallery3/tree/master

So the git command would be:

    [committers] git clone git@...:bharatman/gallery3.git
    [public]     git clone git://github.com/bharat/gallery3.git

2) I've also figured out how to import just the gallery3 hierarchy from
svn such that we keep track of the history of the files including author
information so now if you look at the repository it has all our
historical information in it, eg:

http://github.com/bharat/gallery3/commits/master/core/views/form.html.php


I believe that we can now switch Gallery 3 over to Git easily at any
time.  Since most of the team seems to be in favor of it (modulo some
education) I'd like to do this *before* we do the beta 1 launch so that
we can get all beta 1 users using git instead of subversion.

** If you have a problem with this SPEAK UP NOW **

In the meantime, I'm going to experiment with pushing the vendor branch
over and figure out the proper process for making that work.

-Bharat

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Register Now for Creativity and Technology (CaT), June 3rd, NYC. CaT
is a gathering of tech-side developers & brand creativity professionals. Meet
the minds behind Google Creative Lab, Visual Complexity, Processing, &
iPhoneDevCamp asthey present alongside digital heavyweights like Barbarian
Group, R/GA, & Big Spaceship. http://www.creativitycat.com 
__[ g a l l e r y - d e v e l ]_________________________

[ list info/archive --> http://gallery.sf.net/lists.php ]
[ gallery info/FAQ/download --> http://gallery.sf.net ]

[Tim Almdal]

A couple of thoughts:
1) Is this all done through the free account with with github?
2) It wasn't clear how you/we control access to the repository
3) Is there a facility for the "commit" emails that we currently get from svn
4) How do we find out if there is a useful patch in a non-committer's git repository?
5) Can we create a url like git.gallery.menalto.com that redirects to the public respository?
6) Have u found a reasonable emacs plugin in yet? :-)

I finally figured out to merges and reverts and ur going to change that on me :-(.  But that's alright don't hold up progress for me.

I think its a great idea.  If we ever get re-involved with SoC, giving students their own repository makes a lot of sense.

Bharat Mediratta wrote:

Bharat Mediratta wrote:
  

Bharat Mediratta wrote:
...
    

   $ cd /var/www
   $ mv gallery3 gallery3.old              # move old stuff away
   $ git@... # get the code (10 sec)
      

Ooops, that should be:

   git clone git@...
    

Two updates:

1) The folks at GitHub were nice enough to evict the squatter on my 
desired username so now my username is "bharat" and the url is:

    http://github.com/bharat/gallery3/tree/master

So the git command would be:

    [committers] git clone git@...
    [public]     git clone git://github.com/bharat/gallery3.git

2) I've also figured out how to import just the gallery3 hierarchy from 
svn such that we keep track of the history of the files including author 
information so now if you look at the repository it has all our 
historical information in it, eg:

http://github.com/bharat/gallery3/commits/master/core/views/form.html.php


I believe that we can now switch Gallery 3 over to Git easily at any 
time.  Since most of the team seems to be in favor of it (modulo some 
education) I'd like to do this *before* we do the beta 1 launch so that 
we can get all beta 1 users using git instead of subversion.

** If you have a problem with this SPEAK UP NOW **

In the meantime, I'm going to experiment with pushing the vendor branch 
over and figure out the proper process for making that work.

-Bharat

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Register Now for Creativity and Technology (CaT), June 3rd, NYC. CaT
is a gathering of tech-side developers & brand creativity professionals. Meet
the minds behind Google Creative Lab, Visual Complexity, Processing, & 
iPhoneDevCamp asthey present alongside digital heavyweights like Barbarian
Group, R/GA, & Big Spaceship. http://www.creativitycat.com 
__[ g a l l e r y - d e v e l ]_________________________

[ list info/archive --> http://gallery.sf.net/lists.php ]
[ gallery info/FAQ/download --> http://gallery.sf.net ]

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 
Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.37/2129 - Release Date: 05/22/09 17:56:00

  

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Register Now for Creativity and Technology (CaT), June 3rd, NYC. CaT
is a gathering of tech-side developers & brand creativity professionals. Meet
the minds behind Google Creative Lab, Visual Complexity, Processing, &
iPhoneDevCamp asthey present alongside digital heavyweights like Barbarian
Group, R/GA, & Big Spaceship. http://www.creativitycat.com 
__[ g a l l e r y - d e v e l ]_________________________

[ list info/archive --> http://gallery.sf.net/lists.php ]
[ gallery info/FAQ/download --> http://gallery.sf.net ]

[Bharat Mediratta]

Tim Almdal wrote:
> A couple of thoughts:
> 1) Is this all done through the free account with with github?

Yes.  For now.  Though I'll probably get a paid account so that we
support GitHub.

> 2) It wasn't clear how you/we control access to the repository

Right now it's my tree, so it's controlled through my account.  We might
get a shared account, but realistically it's not that important because
each copy of the repository is effectively the same, which is the
essential underlying philosophy of distributed revision control systems.
   Anybody can set up their own fork, and any fork can become canonical
if we say it is.

> 3) Is there a facility for the "commit" emails that we currently get
> from svn

I'm (nearly) sure that there is.  There are APIs on both the github and
the CIA.vc side

http://cia.vc/doc/clients/
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=github+irc+bot&btnG=Search&aq=f&oq=&aqi=
http://develop.github.com/

> 4) How do we find out if there is a useful patch in a non-committer's
> git repository?

They tell us.  Or if they're on github and they've forked us instead of
cloning, they'll show up on the fork queue:

http://github.com/bharat/gallery3/forkqueue

> 5) Can we create a url like git.gallery.menalto.com that redirects to
> the public respository?

Yes.  But I'm guessing that this would cause more confusion than it helps.

> 6) Have u found a reasonable emacs plugin in yet? :-)

No, but apparently you did and posted it in irc :-)
http://tsgates.cafe24.com/git/git-emacs.html

> I finally figured out to merges and reverts and ur going to change that
> on me :-(.  But that's alright don't hold up progress for me.
>
> I think its a great idea.  If we ever get re-involved with SoC, giving
> students their own repository makes a lot of sense.

Well, I can't let you actually *catch up* can I?  Noooo I have to keep
you down :-)

-Bharat

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Register Now for Creativity and Technology (CaT), June 3rd, NYC. CaT
is a gathering of tech-side developers & brand creativity professionals. Meet
the minds behind Google Creative Lab, Visual Complexity, Processing, &
iPhoneDevCamp asthey present alongside digital heavyweights like Barbarian
Group, R/GA, & Big Spaceship. http://www.creativitycat.com 
__[ g a l l e r y - d e v e l ]_________________________

[ list info/archive --> http://gallery.sf.net/lists.php ]
[ gallery info/FAQ/download --> http://gallery.sf.net ]

[Jakob Hilden]

I think it would generally be a good decision to move to git.

In addition to the advantages already mentioned, I think github.com is a
very nice code hosting service with great community features.  And with
git you have a local copy of the repository so e.g. comparing revisions
is much faster than with subversion.

The one big downside that I see is the client plugin support for git.
For example, I'm using Aptana (based on Eclipse) which has awesome
subversion support, but right now there is not stable git plugin for
Eclipse afaik.
But I'm not the biggest committer, so this shouldn't hold us back.

I think it will also be an additional hurdle for people that want to
test the latest version of Gallery or use it directly from the
repository.  An SVN client will be already available or very easy to get
on pretty much any webserver, but a git client might not be (yet).  It's
not a super difficult hurdle to overcome, but it's another hurdle and it
might reduce the number of eyes on the new features in Gallery.
This might be something to think about.

--Jakob



Bharat Mediratta wrote:

> Bharat Mediratta wrote:
>> Bharat Mediratta wrote:
>> ...
>>>    $ cd /var/www
>>>    $ mv gallery3 gallery3.old              # move old stuff away
>>>    $ git@...:bharatman/gallery3.git # get the code (10 sec)
>> Ooops, that should be:
>>
>>    git clone git@...:bharatman/gallery3.git
>
> Two updates:
>
> 1) The folks at GitHub were nice enough to evict the squatter on my
> desired username so now my username is "bharat" and the url is:
>
>     http://github.com/bharat/gallery3/tree/master
>
> So the git command would be:
>
>     [committers] git clone git@...:bharatman/gallery3.git
>     [public]     git clone git://github.com/bharat/gallery3.git
>
> 2) I've also figured out how to import just the gallery3 hierarchy from
> svn such that we keep track of the history of the files including author
> information so now if you look at the repository it has all our
> historical information in it, eg:
>
> http://github.com/bharat/gallery3/commits/master/core/views/form.html.php
>
>
> I believe that we can now switch Gallery 3 over to Git easily at any
> time.  Since most of the team seems to be in favor of it (modulo some
> education) I'd like to do this *before* we do the beta 1 launch so that
> we can get all beta 1 users using git instead of subversion.
>
> ** If you have a problem with this SPEAK UP NOW **
>
> In the meantime, I'm going to experiment with pushing the vendor branch
> over and figure out the proper process for making that work.
>
> -Bharat
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Register Now for Creativity and Technology (CaT), June 3rd, NYC. CaT
> is a gathering of tech-side developers & brand creativity professionals. Meet
> the minds behind Google Creative Lab, Visual Complexity, Processing, &
> iPhoneDevCamp asthey present alongside digital heavyweights like Barbarian
> Group, R/GA, & Big Spaceship. http://www.creativitycat.com 
> __[ g a l l e r y - d e v e l ]_________________________
>
> [ list info/archive --> http://gallery.sf.net/lists.php ]
> [ gallery info/FAQ/download --> http://gallery.sf.net ]

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Register Now for Creativity and Technology (CaT), June 3rd, NYC. CaT
is a gathering of tech-side developers & brand creativity professionals. Meet
the minds behind Google Creative Lab, Visual Complexity, Processing, &
iPhoneDevCamp asthey present alongside digital heavyweights like Barbarian
Group, R/GA, & Big Spaceship. http://www.creativitycat.com 
__[ g a l l e r y - d e v e l ]_________________________

[ list info/archive --> http://gallery.sf.net/lists.php ]
[ gallery info/FAQ/download --> http://gallery.sf.net ]

[Bharat Mediratta]

Jakob Hilden wrote:
> The one big downside that I see is the client plugin support for git.
> For example, I'm using Aptana (based on Eclipse) which has awesome
> subversion support, but right now there is not stable git plugin for
> Eclipse afaik.
> But I'm not the biggest committer, so this shouldn't hold us back.

I use the Emacs SVN integration.  Haven't looked at git integration, but
I imagine it's good and if it's not good now, it will be soon.  Git is
picking up stream *fast*.

> I think it will also be an additional hurdle for people that want to
> test the latest version of Gallery or use it directly from the
> repository.  An SVN client will be already available or very easy to get
> on pretty much any webserver, but a git client might not be (yet).  It's
> not a super difficult hurdle to overcome, but it's another hurdle and it
> might reduce the number of eyes on the new features in Gallery.
> This might be something to think about.

On the flip side, you can get the latest code as a zip file instantly
with this url:

   http://github.com/bharat/gallery3/zipball/master

Which basically means that we can kill all of our nightly archives.
It's going to be a a pain for our users to tell us what version of the
code they're using since the revision id right now is
bdc62c7e5f30a0e057a64a638d9e7755d909fdb6 but I think that's a hurdle
that we can overcome over time.

I believe we're at the point where we can migrate to git right now.
I've figured out a plan for vendor branches and have successfully done a
complete vendor merge of Kohana into our tree successfully.  So modulo
the small stuff I'll send out a plan for the migration.

-Bharat

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Register Now for Creativity and Technology (CaT), June 3rd, NYC. CaT
is a gathering of tech-side developers & brand creativity professionals. Meet
the minds behind Google Creative Lab, Visual Complexity, Processing, &
iPhoneDevCamp asthey present alongside digital heavyweights like Barbarian
Group, R/GA, & Big Spaceship. http://www.creativitycat.com 
__[ g a l l e r y - d e v e l ]_________________________

[ list info/archive --> http://gallery.sf.net/lists.php ]
[ gallery info/FAQ/download --> http://gallery.sf.net ]

[Andy Staudacher-3]

On Sat, May 23, 2009 at 5:01 AM, Jakob Hilden <jakobhilden@...> wrote:

I think it would generally be a good decision to move to git.

In addition to the advantages already mentioned, I think github.com is a
very nice code hosting service with great community features.  And with
git you have a local copy of the repository so e.g. comparing revisions
is much faster than with subversion.

- github vs. SF, that's one of the two points I'm not entirely sure about.

What do we get from github that we don't get from SF's git offering?

We know SF very well. It's not perfect. But if there's no compelling reason to switch, I'm not too excited about adding yet another service site to our tool-belt.

After all, we wouldn't abandon SF completely, would we? trac is still there and SF's release serving is still a great service.

- The other minor nitpick: I'd prefer if the master tree was under an impersonal / shared account.

a) I think it could simplify things over time. E.g. in case multiple github project admins (or however it works there) are needed.

b) It would be nice, if the git URL had "gallery" in it instead of the username of its creator.

But maybe that's not the way github organizes things. I don't know.

 - Andy

The one big downside that I see is the client plugin support for git.
For example, I'm using Aptana (based on Eclipse) which has awesome
subversion support, but right now there is not stable git plugin for
Eclipse afaik.
But I'm not the biggest committer, so this shouldn't hold us back.

I think it will also be an additional hurdle for people that want to
test the latest version of Gallery or use it directly from the
repository.  An SVN client will be already available or very easy to get
on pretty much any webserver, but a git client might not be (yet).  It's
not a super difficult hurdle to overcome, but it's another hurdle and it
might reduce the number of eyes on the new features in Gallery.
This might be something to think about.

--Jakob

Bharat Mediratta wrote:
> Bharat Mediratta wrote:
>> Bharat Mediratta wrote:
>> ...
>>>    $ cd /var/www
>>>    $ mv gallery3 gallery3.old              # move old stuff away
>>>    $ git@...:bharatman/gallery3.git # get the code (10 sec)
>> Ooops, that should be:
>>
>>    git clone git@...:bharatman/gallery3.git
>
> Two updates:
>
> 1) The folks at GitHub were nice enough to evict the squatter on my
> desired username so now my username is "bharat" and the url is:
>
>     http://github.com/bharat/gallery3/tree/master
>
> So the git command would be:
>
>     [committers] git clone git@...:bharatman/gallery3.git
>     [public]     git clone git://github.com/bharat/gallery3.git
>
> 2) I've also figured out how to import just the gallery3 hierarchy from
> svn such that we keep track of the history of the files including author
> information so now if you look at the repository it has all our
> historical information in it, eg:
>
> http://github.com/bharat/gallery3/commits/master/core/views/form.html.php
>
>
> I believe that we can now switch Gallery 3 over to Git easily at any
> time.  Since most of the team seems to be in favor of it (modulo some
> education) I'd like to do this *before* we do the beta 1 launch so that
> we can get all beta 1 users using git instead of subversion.
>
> ** If you have a problem with this SPEAK UP NOW **
>
> In the meantime, I'm going to experiment with pushing the vendor branch
> over and figure out the proper process for making that work.
>
> -Bharat
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Register Now for Creativity and Technology (CaT), June 3rd, NYC. CaT
> is a gathering of tech-side developers & brand creativity professionals. Meet
> the minds behind Google Creative Lab, Visual Complexity, Processing, &
> iPhoneDevCamp asthey present alongside digital heavyweights like Barbarian
> Group, R/GA, & Big Spaceship. http://www.creativitycat.com
> __[ g a l l e r y - d e v e l ]_________________________
>
> [ list info/archive --> http://gallery.sf.net/lists.php ]
> [ gallery info/FAQ/download --> http://gallery.sf.net ]

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Register Now for Creativity and Technology (CaT), June 3rd, NYC. CaT
is a gathering of tech-side developers & brand creativity professionals. Meet
the minds behind Google Creative Lab, Visual Complexity, Processing, &
iPhoneDevCamp asthey present alongside digital heavyweights like Barbarian
Group, R/GA, & Big Spaceship. http://www.creativitycat.com
__[ g a l l e r y - d e v e l ]_________________________

[ list info/archive --> http://gallery.sf.net/lists.php ]
[ gallery info/FAQ/download --> http://gallery.sf.net ]

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Register Now for Creativity and Technology (CaT), June 3rd, NYC. CaT
is a gathering of tech-side developers & brand creativity professionals. Meet
the minds behind Google Creative Lab, Visual Complexity, Processing, &
iPhoneDevCamp asthey present alongside digital heavyweights like Barbarian
Group, R/GA, & Big Spaceship. http://www.creativitycat.com 
__[ g a l l e r y - d e v e l ]_________________________

[ list info/archive --> http://gallery.sf.net/lists.php ]
[ gallery info/FAQ/download --> http://gallery.sf.net ]

[Bharat Mediratta]

Andy Staudacher wrote:
> - github vs. SF, that's one of the two points I'm not entirely sure about.
> What do we get from github that we don't get from SF's git offering?

A few things:
1) Github is more of a social center than SF.net.  All they do is git
hosting and they do it really well with a very large array of tools for
tracking and self servicing your git tree.

> We know SF very well. It's not perfect. But if there's no compelling
> reason to switch, I'm not too excited about adding yet another service
> site to our tool-belt.
> After all, we wouldn't abandon SF completely, would we? trac is still
> there and SF's release serving is still a great service.

I have no problem with having our source code elsewhere.  And because
git is decentralized, we could easily move the code to sf.net in the future.

> - The other minor nitpick: I'd prefer if the master tree was under an
> impersonal / shared account.
> a) I think it could simplify things over time. E.g. in case multiple
> github project admins (or however it works there) are needed.
> b) It would be nice, if the git URL had "gallery" in it instead of the
> username of its creator.

Looks like rails and others do it with a role account:
  http://github.com/rails/rails/tree
  http://github.com/mangos/mangos/tree/master

But capistrano and others are based on the owner:
  http://github.com/jamis/capistrano/tree/master
  http://github.com/madrobby/scriptaculous/tree
  http://github.com/edavis10/redmine/tree

I've created a role account for us, and pushed our test code into it.
You can see it here:

  http://github.com/gallery/gallery3/tree/master

Creating this tree took a few minutes (create an account, create a repo,
remote add it to my repo and push to it).  It's pretty straightforward.
   We can trivially push to sf.net's github the same way.

I'm not sure what the downsides to this will be, yet.  If we follow our
current model, then everybody is a collaborator in the main repo and
pushes to it directly so there's no issues.

Most people would just log into github as themselves to deal with the
site.  Only people who are doing actual administration on the main repo
(eg me, ckdake, etc) would have to occasionally log in as the role
account to take care of stuff like adding more collaborators etc.

Non project members would have their own repo there, so we'd pull from
them as before, no problem.

-Bharat

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Register Now for Creativity and Technology (CaT), June 3rd, NYC. CaT
is a gathering of tech-side developers & brand creativity professionals. Meet
the minds behind Google Creative Lab, Visual Complexity, Processing, &
iPhoneDevCamp asthey present alongside digital heavyweights like Barbarian
Group, R/GA, & Big Spaceship. http://www.creativitycat.com 
__[ g a l l e r y - d e v e l ]_________________________

[ list info/archive --> http://gallery.sf.net/lists.php ]
[ gallery info/FAQ/download --> http://gallery.sf.net ]