tag:old.nabble.com,2006:forum-14150Nabble - Smalltalk2009-12-01T15:29:15ZSmalltalk home is <a href="http://www.smalltalk.org/" target="_top" rel="nofollow">here</a>.tag:old.nabble.com,2006:post-26601029Re: [vwnc] Platform priorities2009-12-01T15:29:15Z2009-12-01T15:29:15Zthomas.hawkerTravis,
<br><br>Thanks for the clarifications. I think the major/minor number and relation to VM<->VI compatibility got lost from previous messages.
<br><br>I'm a lot more comfortable with your idea, now. I don't think it's zany at all, but merely requires adequate "expectation management."
<br><br>Cheers!
<br>
<br>Tom Hawker
<br>--------------------------
<br>Senior Framework Developer
<br>--------------------------
<br>Home +1 (408) 274-4128
<br>Office +1 (408) 576-6591
<br>Mobile +1 (408) 835-3643
<br>
<br><br>-----Original Message-----
<br>From: <a href="http://old.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=26601029&i=0" target="_top" rel="nofollow">vwnc-bounces@...</a> [mailto:<a href="http://old.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=26601029&i=1" target="_top" rel="nofollow">vwnc-bounces@...</a>] On Behalf Of Travis Griggs
<br>Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 2009 3:16 PM
<br>To: VWNC List
<br>Subject: Re: [vwnc] Platform priorities
<br><br><br>On Dec 1, 2009, at 10:26 AM, <a href="http://old.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=26601029&i=2" target="_top" rel="nofollow">thomas.hawker@...</a> wrote:
<br><div class='shrinkable-quote'><br>> Travis,
<br>>
<br>> While I'm all for more frequent releases, especially for bug fixes
<br>> and incremental improvements and additions to the technology base, I
<br>> don't see that it will be practical to limit backward
<br>> compatibility. The problem with your approach is that, in order to
<br>> avoid major migration hassles, you have to move your code base every
<br>> new release, at worst every other release. Our enterprise client is
<br>> still running VW5i! We're planning on moving it to VW7.7 next year,
<br>> but the project is formidable. (We've already put more than a
<br>> couple of man-years on it and haven't yet gotten to a reliable,
<br>> testable code base.) With VW7.7 I have to rewrite all of my Store
<br>> extensions from VW7.6 because of the switchover to Glorp.
<br>>
<br>> Some level of backward compatibility is a must. We might not need
<br>> that much at the VM level, but we can't afford to do major platform
<br>> (hardware or software) upgrades more than once every three years.
<br>> The kind of effort involved requires significant scheduling and
<br>> planning - typically on the order of 9 months or so. If you had VW
<br>> releases every 6-9 months, we'd be 3+ releases behind every time we
<br>> scheduled a migration. Extensive BWC support would be essential!
</div><br>I think I didn't communicate the jst of this idea well enough. Using
<br>integral releases, I wouldn't see us doing much different from what we
<br>have from a BWC point of view. From release to release, we change
<br>stuff at the Smalltalk level, that requires changes in customer
<br>applications, or at least encourages it. We try to limit it where we
<br>can. What the integral version number buys us, is the freedom to
<br>break, or rather, change, the interface between image and VM.
<br>Currently, the goal is that if it's a 7.x VM, it should be able to run
<br>an image of the same version or previous 7.x vintage. Doing a series
<br>of integral releases would allow us to evolve the VM<->Image interface
<br>easier. I wouldn't expect it calling it 8,9,10 to be much different at
<br>the class library level, that 7.8, 7.9, 7.10 would be.
<br><br>And I reiterate it's just a zany idea.
<br><br>--
<br>Travis Griggs
<br>Objologist
<br>"It had better be a pretty good meeting, to be better than no meeting
<br>at all" - Boyd K Packer
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<br><a href="http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc" target="_top" rel="nofollow">http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc</a><br><p>From forum: <a href="http://old.nabble.com/VisualWorks-f14163.html" embed="fixTarget[14163]" target="_top" >VisualWorks</a></p>tag:old.nabble.com,2006:post-26601016Re: [vwnc] Platform priorities2009-12-01T15:24:43Z2009-12-01T15:24:43Zthomas.hawker<html>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=maroon face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:maroon'>OK, Paul, that makes a lot of sense.
I like the analogy, too. That wasn’t exactly the way I perceived
what happened, but that’s certainly a reasonable description of the
result.</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=maroon face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:maroon'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=maroon face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:maroon'>Now, while that explains what happened
to one solution to improve the GUI, let’s address the thread. Is
there a feasible, <i><span style='font-style:italic'>coordinated</span></i>
approach that covers all of the desired goals: improving Wrapper, better
GUI capabilities (alpha, anti-aliasing, fonts), improved tools, and so
on? You indicated you like submitting fixes and seeing them added;
my luck with that seems more limited.</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=maroon face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:maroon'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=maroon face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:maroon'>Since we all seem to want to complain, and
we all know Cincom’s resources are tight, perhaps we should ask the
question differently: What could be changed to helps us contribute
solutions (and get them included) to move things along? What is Cincom
willing to do to support that?</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=maroon face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:maroon'> </span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=navy face="Bernard MT Condensed"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Bernard MT Condensed";color:navy'>Cheers!</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=maroon face="Bookman Old Style"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:maroon'> </span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face="Arial Narrow"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial Narrow";color:navy'>Senior
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<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman"'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center tabindex=-1>
</span></font></div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> Paul Baumann
[mailto:<a href="http://old.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=26601016&i=0" target="_top" rel="nofollow">paul.baumann@...</a>] <br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, December 01, 2009
2:19 PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> THOMAS HAWKER
(IRIS2-ISD-OOCLL/SNT); <a href="http://old.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=26601016&i=1" target="_top" rel="nofollow">tgriggs@...</a>; <a href="http://old.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=26601016&i=2" target="_top" rel="nofollow">vwnc@...</a><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> RE: [vwnc] Platform
priorities</span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Bookman Old Style"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>In simple terms...</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman"'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>It is infeasible by common approach.</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman"'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>The way to eat an elephant is...one bite
at a time. The Widgetry elephant couldn't be swallowed in one sitting even with
several years of preparation. The problem wasn't that Sames needed more
time or encouragement, but that increasingly Cincom's customers were expected
to swallow really-really hard and Cincom finally came to realize that
they wouldn't. End result was that Cincom practically starved itself figuring
out how to consume that damn elephant in one sitting and decided to find
something else to eat instead.</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman"'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>In general...</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman"'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>Focus on finding solutions to the
small problems at hand; the bigger problems work
themselves out over time and opportunities become easier to exploit.
In an environment of Liberty, you don't need to risk for grand ambitions
because you have the daily satisfaction of having taken one step closer in
a direction that was demonstrably correct and practical. </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>Furthermore...</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>I want to see Cincom developers anxious to
fix problems and incorporate solutions instead of being stressed by a list
of scheduled requirements. The best code often comes from a useful but
complicated body of code that incrementally evolved into a work of art--to
a form not originally anticipated. Bad code comes from replacing one
complicated mass of code with another with some new forced twist--and then
needing to support both. Bad code happens from a legacy of resisting
refinements to "working" code.</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>When I send a fix to Cincom, I want
it released in product to customers within a month or two (this is why
open-source works; not because it is "free"). There is a cost
involved in sending code to Cincom instead of just hacking a workaround into
place. It is cheaper to just fix the problem here and hope Cincom never changes
code in a way that breaks a workaround. For several years now, that has
unfortunately been the most effective approach. Fix it and forget about wasting
time sharing or even communicating the fix. I'd encourage a system that makes
it more practical for me to share fixes with more than an excuse in
return.</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>Cincom doesn't need to eat the entire
elephant, but they do have to encourage others to join them at the table and
offer them a carving knife and a fork.</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><strong><b><font size=2 color="#333333" face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:#333333'>Paul Baumann</span></font></b></strong><font size=2 color="#333333" face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Arial;color:#333333'> </span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman"'> </span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman"'> </span></font></p>
<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman"'>
<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center tabindex=-1>
</span></font></div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
<a href="http://old.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=26601016&i=3" target="_top" rel="nofollow">vwnc-bounces@...</a> [mailto:<a href="http://old.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=26601016&i=4" target="_top" rel="nofollow">vwnc-bounces@...</a>] <b><span style='font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b><a href="http://old.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=26601016&i=5" target="_top" rel="nofollow">thomas.hawker@...</a><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, December 01, 2009
2:27 PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <a href="http://old.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=26601016&i=6" target="_top" rel="nofollow">thomas.hawker@...</a>;
<a href="http://old.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=26601016&i=7" target="_top" rel="nofollow">tgriggs@...</a>; <a href="http://old.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=26601016&i=8" target="_top" rel="nofollow">vwnc@...</a><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [vwnc] Platform
priorities</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=maroon face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:maroon'>I’ve spent the past couple of days
reading through this entire list. In terms of GUI upgrades, especially
for native widgets, could someone please explain why that is really so
infeasible? I must be dense, so could you use small words? </span></font><font size=2 color=maroon face=Wingdings><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Wingdings;color:maroon'>J</span></font><font size=2 color=maroon face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:maroon'> While it may
take a release or two to get there, it seems that we have all of the pieces [or
thought experiments] in place to do it:</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Bookman Old Style"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
<ol style='margin-top:0in' start=1 type=1>
<li class=MsoNormal style='color:maroon'><font size=2 color=maroon face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Move the GUI out of the
VM. Use Cairo as the base. This permits <i><span style='font-style:italic'>completely</span></i> headless images.</span></font>
</li>
<li class=MsoNormal style='color:maroon'><font size=2 color=maroon face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>For native widgets, do it all
by DLL, even direct access to X11, Quartz, or whatnot.</span></font> </li>
<li class=MsoNormal style='color:maroon'><font size=2 color=maroon face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>To facilitate this, resurrect
Widgetry or at least move to something with cleaner structural separation.</span></font>
</li>
<ol style='margin-top:0in' start=1 type=a>
<li class=MsoNormal style='color:maroon'><font size=2 color=maroon face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>A pane could
be an emulated pane or a native pane.</span></font> </li>
<li class=MsoNormal style='color:maroon'><font size=2 color=maroon face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Native artists
follow, which interface to the DLL calls to do what you want.</span></font>
</li>
<li class=MsoNormal style='color:maroon'><font size=2 color=maroon face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Native agents
and event interaction could be facilitated by some of the multi-threaded
VM discussions (such as that one by Eliot).</span></font> </li>
<li class=MsoNormal style='color:maroon'><font size=2 color=maroon face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Build
hierarchical and peer packages, so that you can move [gradually] to full
implementation while providing immediate functionality where you can. </span></font></li>
</ol>
<li class=MsoNormal style='color:maroon'><font size=2 color=maroon face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>I would add: give <i><span style='font-style:italic'>serious</span></i> thought on how to dynamically
memory-map segments to handle the chameleon effect (that is, map on
reference without saving).</span></font> </li>
</ol>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=maroon face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:maroon'>
</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=maroon face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:maroon'>I think one objective is to be able to
do this polymorphically: native and emulated widgets on the same window.
It can’t be such a hard thing, since an emulated widget is really nothing
more than a direct draw capability to the underlying window canvas. All
the drawing primitives ultimately do that, so the adjustments should come
naturally simply by moving behavior into the image. Where we have
“LookPolicy” we’d add “NativeUIPolicy” or
something.</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Bookman Old Style"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=maroon face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:maroon'>I’m not denying that this
wouldn’t take some significant work, but at this stage it could at least
be planned or prototyped. </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Bookman Old Style"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'> </span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=navy face="Bernard MT Condensed"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Bernard MT Condensed";color:navy'>Cheers!</span></font></p>
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<br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> <br />_______________________________________________
<br>vwnc mailing list
<br><a href="http://old.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=26601016&i=9" target="_top" rel="nofollow">vwnc@...</a>
<br><a href="http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc" target="_top" rel="nofollow">http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc</a><br><p>From forum: <a href="http://old.nabble.com/VisualWorks-f14163.html" embed="fixTarget[14163]" target="_top" >VisualWorks</a></p>tag:old.nabble.com,2006:post-26600915Re: [vwnc] Platform priorities2009-12-01T15:16:04Z2009-12-01T15:16:04ZTravis Griggs-3<br>On Dec 1, 2009, at 10:26 AM, <a href="http://old.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=26600915&i=0" target="_top" rel="nofollow">thomas.hawker@...</a> wrote:
<br><div class='shrinkable-quote'><br>> Travis,
<br>>
<br>> While I’m all for more frequent releases, especially for bug fixes
<br>> and incremental improvements and additions to the technology base, I
<br>> don’t see that it will be practical to limit backward
<br>> compatibility. The problem with your approach is that, in order to
<br>> avoid major migration hassles, you have to move your code base every
<br>> new release, at worst every other release. Our enterprise client is
<br>> still running VW5i! We’re planning on moving it to VW7.7 next year,
<br>> but the project is formidable. (We’ve already put more than a
<br>> couple of man-years on it and haven’t yet gotten to a reliable,
<br>> testable code base.) With VW7.7 I have to rewrite all of my Store
<br>> extensions from VW7.6 because of the switchover to Glorp.
<br>>
<br>> Some level of backward compatibility is a must. We might not need
<br>> that much at the VM level, but we can’t afford to do major platform
<br>> (hardware or software) upgrades more than once every three years.
<br>> The kind of effort involved requires significant scheduling and
<br>> planning – typically on the order of 9 months or so. If you had VW
<br>> releases every 6-9 months, we’d be 3+ releases behind every time we
<br>> scheduled a migration. Extensive BWC support would be essential!
</div><br>I think I didn't communicate the jst of this idea well enough. Using
<br>integral releases, I wouldn't see us doing much different from what we
<br>have from a BWC point of view. From release to release, we change
<br>stuff at the Smalltalk level, that requires changes in customer
<br>applications, or at least encourages it. We try to limit it where we
<br>can. What the integral version number buys us, is the freedom to
<br>break, or rather, change, the interface between image and VM.
<br>Currently, the goal is that if it's a 7.x VM, it should be able to run
<br>an image of the same version or previous 7.x vintage. Doing a series
<br>of integral releases would allow us to evolve the VM<->Image interface
<br>easier. I wouldn't expect it calling it 8,9,10 to be much different at
<br>the class library level, that 7.8, 7.9, 7.10 would be.
<br><br>And I reiterate it's just a zany idea.
<br><br>--
<br>Travis Griggs
<br>Objologist
<br>"It had better be a pretty good meeting, to be better than no meeting
<br>at all" - Boyd K Packer
<br><br><br><br>_______________________________________________
<br>vwnc mailing list
<br><a href="http://old.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=26600915&i=1" target="_top" rel="nofollow">vwnc@...</a>
<br><a href="http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc" target="_top" rel="nofollow">http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc</a><br><p>From forum: <a href="http://old.nabble.com/VisualWorks-f14163.html" embed="fixTarget[14163]" target="_top" >VisualWorks</a></p>tag:old.nabble.com,2006:post-26600337Re: [vwnc] Platform priorities2009-12-01T14:30:28Z2009-12-01T14:30:28ZAlan Knight-2<html>
<body>
<font size=3>At 02:26 PM 2009-12-01, <a href="http://old.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=26600337&i=0" target="_top" rel="nofollow">thomas.hawker@...</a>
wrote:</font><blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">
<ol>
<li><font size=2 color="#800000">Move the GUI out of the VM. Use
Cairo as the base. This permits <i>completely</i> headless
images.</font><font size=3> </blockquote>
</ol>At least on *nix type systems, completely headless images work just
fine now. That's why there are separate VMs with and without a suffix
"gui", although those without will dynamically link the
required gui libraries if not running headless. I'm not sure if that
works on Windows and MacOSX or if those have other couplings to the gui
libraries.<br>
</font></body>
<br>
<div>--</div>
<div>Alan Knight [|], Engineering Manager, Cincom Smalltalk</div>
<div><a href="http://old.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=26600337&i=1" target="_top" rel="nofollow">knight@...</a></div>
<div><a href="http://old.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=26600337&i=2" target="_top" rel="nofollow">aknight@...</a></div>
<div><a href="http://www.cincom.com/smalltalk" EUDORA=AUTOURL target="_top" rel="nofollow">
http://www.cincom.com/smalltalk</a></div>
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<br />_______________________________________________
<br>vwnc mailing list
<br><a href="http://old.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=26600337&i=3" target="_top" rel="nofollow">vwnc@...</a>
<br><a href="http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc" target="_top" rel="nofollow">http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc</a><br><p>From forum: <a href="http://old.nabble.com/VisualWorks-f14163.html" embed="fixTarget[14163]" target="_top" >VisualWorks</a></p>tag:old.nabble.com,2006:post-26600365Re: [vwnc] Platform priorities2009-12-01T14:29:37Z2009-12-01T14:29:37ZAlan Knight-2<html>
<body>
<font size=3>Yes, clients like you certainly get consideration. Please
note the first two sentences of Travis' question :-) <br><br>
At 04:09 PM 2009-12-01, Dmytryk, Igor wrote:<br><br>
</font><blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">
<font size=2 color="#0000FF">Travis,<br>
</font><font size=3> <br>
</font><font size=2 color="#0000FF">I share Tom's view. We are
generally a "quiet" CINCOM customer...but this thread makes me
nervous. We tend to defer VW migrations because of the extensive
effort required in the past (we are currently on 7.2). My concern
is that if previous "backward-compatible" releases were painful
for us, what extra effort may be needed for a
"non-backward-compatible" release? I would hope clients
like us get "consideration" during your release planning.<br>
</font><font size=3> <br>
</font><font size=2 color="#0000FF">Interesting discussion.<br>
</font><font size=3> <br>
</font><font size=2 color="#0000FF">Thanks,<br>
</font><font size=3> <br>
</font><font size=2 color="#0000FF">Igor Dmytryk<br>
Export Development Canada<br>
</font><font size=3> <br>
</font>
<dl>
<dd><font face="Tahoma" size=2>-----Original Message-----<br>
<dd>From:</b> <a href="http://old.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=26600365&i=0" target="_top" rel="nofollow">vwnc-bounces@...</a>
[<a href="http://old.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=26600365&i=1" target="_top" rel="nofollow">vwnc-bounces@...</a>] On Behalf Of
</b><a href="http://old.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=26600365&i=2" target="_top" rel="nofollow">thomas.hawker@...</a><br>
<dd>Sent:</b> Tuesday, December 01, 2009 1:26 PM<br>
<dd>To:</b> <a href="http://old.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=26600365&i=3" target="_top" rel="nofollow">tgriggs@...</a>; <a href="http://old.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=26600365&i=4" target="_top" rel="nofollow">vwnc@...</a><br>
<dd>Subject:</b> Re: [vwnc] Platform priorities<br><br>
</font>
<dd><font face="Courier New, Courier" size=2>Travis,<br>
</font><font size=3><br>
<dd> <br><br>
</font>
<dd><font face="Courier New, Courier" size=2>While Im all for more
frequent releases, especially for bug fixes and incremental improvements
and additions to the technology base, I dont see that it will be
practical to limit backward compatibility. The problem with your
approach is that, in order to avoid major migration hassles, you have to
move your code base every new release, at worst every other
release. Our enterprise client is still running VW5i! Were
planning on moving it to VW7.7 next year, but the project is
formidable. (Weve already put more than a couple of man-years on
it and havent yet gotten to a reliable, testable code base.) With
VW7.7 I have to rewrite all of my Store extensions from VW7.6 because of
the switchover to Glorp.<br>
</font><font size=3><br>
<dd> <br><br>
</font>
<dd><font face="Courier New, Courier" size=2>Some level of backward
compatibility is a must. We might not need that much at the VM
level, but we cant afford to do major platform (hardware or software)
upgrades more than once every three years. The kind of effort
involved requires significant scheduling and planning typically on the
order of 9 months or so. If you had VW releases every 6-9 months,
wed be 3+ releases behind every time we scheduled a migration.
Extensive BWC support would be essential!<br>
</font><font size=3><br>
<dd> <br><br>
</font>
<dd><font face="Courier New, Courier" size=2>Cheers!<br>
</font><font size=3><br>
<dd> <br><br>
</font>
<dd><font face="Courier New, Courier" size=2>Tom Hawker<br>
</font><font size=3><br>
</font>
<dd><font face="Courier New, Courier" size=2>
--------------------------<br>
</font><font size=3><br>
</font>
<dd><font face="Courier New, Courier" size=2>Senior Framework
Developer<br>
</font><font size=3><br>
</font>
<dd><font face="Courier New, Courier" size=2>
--------------------------<br>
</font><font size=3><br>
</font>
<dd><font face="Courier New, Courier" size=2>
Home +1 (408) 274-4128<br>
</font><font size=3><br>
</font>
<dd><font face="Courier New, Courier" size=2>
Office +1 (408) 576-6591<br>
</font><font size=3><br>
</font>
<dd><font face="Courier New, Courier" size=2>
Mobile +1 (408) 835-3643<br>
</font><font size=3><br>
<dd> <br><br>
<dd> <br><br>
</font>
<dd><font face="Courier New, Courier" size=2>-----Original
Message-----<br>
<dd>From: <a href="http://old.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=26600365&i=5" target="_top" rel="nofollow">vwnc-bounces@...</a>
[<a href="http://old.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=26600365&i=6" target="_top" rel="nofollow">vwnc-bounces@...</a>] On Behalf Of Travis Griggs<br>
<dd>Sent: Monday, November 30, 2009 4:52 PM<br>
<dd>To: VWNC List<br>
<dd>Subject: Re: [vwnc] Platform priorities<br>
</font><font size=3><br>
<dd> <br><br>
</font>
<dd><font face="Courier New, Courier" size=2>On Nov 30, 2009, at 2:04 PM,
Steven Kelly wrote:<br>
</font><font size=3><br>
<dd> <br><br>
</font>
<dd><font face="Courier New, Courier" size=2>> A major change in VM
graphics support would be a new major number, <br>
</font><font size=3><br>
</font>
<dd><font face="Courier New, Courier" size=2>> so there would be no
expectation of backwards compatibility. Some of <br>
</font><font size=3><br>
</font>
<dd><font face="Courier New, Courier" size=2>> the 7.* VMs have broken
backward compatibility anyway in some way.<br>
</font><font size=3><br>
<dd> <br><br>
</font>
<dd><font face="Courier New, Courier" size=2>So, I'm curious, just as a
thought experiment. I can completely <br>
</font><font size=3><br>
</font>
<dd><font face="Courier New, Courier" size=2>guarantee, that this is
completely Travis talking in a "what if" sort <br>
</font><font size=3><br>
</font>
<dd><font face="Courier New, Courier" size=2>of way, with absolutely no
prior discussion about this with any one <br>
</font><font size=3><br>
</font>
<dd><font face="Courier New, Courier" size=2>else from Cincom, so you
don't have to worry about what this portends.<br>
</font><font size=3><br>
<dd> <br><br>
</font>
<dd><font face="Courier New, Courier" size=2>What if the next few VW
releases, at *most* a year apart, possibly <br>
</font><font size=3><br>
</font>
<dd><font face="Courier New, Courier" size=2>less, were a series of
integral releases. VW 8, VW 9, VW 10, etc. They <br>
</font><font size=3><br>
</font>
<dd><font face="Courier New, Courier" size=2>wouldn't be backwards
compatible, they may require some work to <br>
</font><font size=3><br>
</font>
<dd><font face="Courier New, Courier" size=2>upgrade code, but it
couldn't be too bad, because the release cycle <br>
</font><font size=3><br>
</font>
<dd><font face="Courier New, Courier" size=2>was kept smaller
(incremental) and we have the onus of having to make <br>
</font><font size=3><br>
</font>
<dd><font face="Courier New, Courier" size=2>the IDE and other tools work
with any changes (eat our own dogfood). <br>
</font><font size=3><br>
</font>
<dd><font face="Courier New, Courier" size=2>But without the bw compat
constraint, progress might be made quicker.<br>
</font><font size=3><br>
<dd> <br><br>
</font>
<dd><font face="Courier New, Courier" size=2>Just curious.<br>
</font><font size=3><br>
<dd> <br><br>
</font>
<dd><font face="Courier New, Courier" size=2>--<br>
</font><font size=3><br>
</font>
<dd><font face="Courier New, Courier" size=2>Travis Griggs<br>
</font><font size=3><br>
</font>
<dd><font face="Courier New, Courier" size=2>Objologist<br>
</font><font size=3><br>
</font>
<dd><font face="Courier New, Courier" size=2>"An idea, like a ghost,
must be spoken to a little before it will <br>
</font><font size=3><br>
</font>
<dd><font face="Courier New, Courier" size=2>explain itself." -
Charles Dickens<br>
</font><font size=3><br>
<dd> <br><br>
</font>
<dd><font face="Courier New, Courier" size=2>
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<br><a href="http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc" target="_top" rel="nofollow">http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc</a><br><p>From forum: <a href="http://old.nabble.com/VisualWorks-f14163.html" embed="fixTarget[14163]" target="_top" >VisualWorks</a></p>tag:old.nabble.com,2006:post-26600189Re: [vwnc] Platform priorities2009-12-01T14:23:11Z2009-12-01T14:23:11ZJames Robertson-7<html><head></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">Umm, Thomas: how did you write this after explaining how critical backward compatibility is?<div><br></div><div>And to be clear, Widgetry is not being resurrected.</div><div><br></div><div><br><div>
<span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><div>James Robertson</div><div>Cincom Smalltalk Product Evangelist</div><div><a href="http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/blog/blogView" target="_top" rel="nofollow">http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/blog/blogView</a></div><div>Talk Small and Carry a Big Class Library</div><div><br class="khtml-block-placeholder"></div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"></span></span></div></span></span><br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
<br><div><div>On Dec 1, 2009, at 2:26 PM, <<a href="http://old.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=26600189&i=0" target="_top" rel="nofollow">thomas.hawker@...</a>> <<a href="http://old.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=26600189&i=1" target="_top" rel="nofollow">thomas.hawker@...</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="#606420"><div class="Section1"><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Bookman Old Style'; "><font size="2" color="maroon" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: maroon; ">I’ve spent the past couple of days reading through this entire list. In terms of GUI upgrades, especially for native widgets, could someone please explain why that is really so infeasible? I must be dense, so could you use small words? <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></font><font size="2" color="maroon" face="Wingdings"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Wingdings; color: maroon; ">J</span></font><font size="2" color="maroon" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: maroon; "> While it may take a release or two to get there, it seems that we have all of the pieces [or thought experiments] in place to do it:</span></font></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Bookman Old Style'; "><font size="2" color="maroon" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: maroon; "> </span></font></p><ol start="1" type="1" style="margin-bottom: 0in; margin-top: 0in; "><li class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Bookman Old Style'; color: maroon; "><font size="2" color="maroon" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; ">Move the GUI out of the VM. Use Cairo as the base. This permits<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i><span style="font-style: italic; ">completely</span></i><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>headless images.</span></font></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Bookman Old Style'; color: maroon; "><font size="2" color="maroon" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; ">For native widgets, do it all by DLL, even direct access to X11, Quartz, or whatnot.</span></font></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Bookman Old Style'; color: maroon; "><font size="2" color="maroon" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; ">To facilitate this, resurrect Widgetry or at least move to something with cleaner structural separation.</span></font></li><ol start="1" type="a" style="margin-bottom: 0in; margin-top: 0in; "><li class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Bookman Old Style'; color: maroon; "><font size="2" color="maroon" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; ">A pane could be an emulated pane or a native pane.</span></font></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Bookman Old Style'; color: maroon; "><font size="2" color="maroon" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; ">Native artists follow, which interface to the DLL calls to do what you want.</span></font></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Bookman Old Style'; color: maroon; "><font size="2" color="maroon" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; ">Native agents and event interaction could be facilitated by some of the multi-threaded VM discussions (such as that one by Eliot).</span></font></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Bookman Old Style'; color: maroon; "><font size="2" color="maroon" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; ">Build hierarchical and peer packages, so that you can move [gradually] to full implementation while providing immediate functionality where you can.</span></font></li></ol><li class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Bookman Old Style'; color: maroon; "><font size="2" color="maroon" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; ">I would add: give<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i><span style="font-style: italic; ">serious</span></i><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>thought on how to dynamically memory-map segments to handle the chameleon effect (that is, map on reference without saving).</span></font></li></ol><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Bookman Old Style'; "><font size="2" color="maroon" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: maroon; "> </span></font></p><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Bookman Old Style'; "><font size="2" color="maroon" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: maroon; ">I think one objective is to be able to do this polymorphically: native and emulated widgets on the same window. It can’t be such a hard thing, since an emulated widget is really nothing more than a direct draw capability to the underlying window canvas. All the drawing primitives ultimately do that, so the adjustments should come naturally simply by moving behavior into the image. Where we have “LookPolicy” we’d add “NativeUIPolicy” or something.</span></font></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Bookman Old Style'; "><font size="2" color="maroon" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: maroon; "> </span></font></p><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Bookman Old Style'; "><font size="2" color="maroon" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: maroon; ">I’m not denying that this wouldn’t take some significant work, but at this stage it could at least be planned or prototyped.</span></font></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Bookman Old Style'; "><font size="2" color="maroon" face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; color: maroon; "> </span></font></p><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Bookman Old Style'; "><font size="3" color="navy" face="Bernard MT Condensed"><span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Bernard MT Condensed'; color: navy; ">Cheers!</span></font></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Bookman Old Style'; "><font size="3" color="maroon" face="Bookman Old Style"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: maroon; "> </span></font></p></div><table class="MsoTableGrid" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" style="border-collapse: collapse; "><tbody><tr><td width="155" colspan="2" valign="top" style="width: 116.6pt; border-top-style: none; border-right-style: none; border-left-style: none; border-width: initial; border-color: initial; border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-color: windowtext; 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<br><a href="http://old.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=26600189&i=3" target="_top" rel="nofollow">vwnc@...</a>
<br><a href="http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc" target="_top" rel="nofollow">http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc</a><br><p>From forum: <a href="http://old.nabble.com/VisualWorks-f14163.html" embed="fixTarget[14163]" target="_top" >VisualWorks</a></p>tag:old.nabble.com,2006:post-26600144Re: [vwnc] Platform priorities2009-12-01T14:18:35Z2009-12-01T14:18:35ZPaul Baumann<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
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<div dir="ltr" align="left"><font color="#0000ff" size="2" face="Arial"><span class="046405219-01122009">In simple terms...</span></font></div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><font color="#0000ff" size="2" face="Arial"><span class="046405219-01122009"></span></font> </div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><font color="#0000ff" size="2" face="Arial"><span class="046405219-01122009">It is infeasible by common approach.</span></font></div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><font color="#0000ff" size="2" face="Arial"><span class="046405219-01122009"><span class="046405219-01122009"></span></span></font> </div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><font color="#0000ff" size="2" face="Arial"><span class="046405219-01122009"><span class="046405219-01122009">The way to eat an elephant is...one bite at a time. The Widgetry elephant
</span><font color="#0000ff" size="2" face="Arial"><span class="046405219-01122009">couldn't be swallowed in one sitting even with several years of preparation. The problem wasn't that Sames needed more time or encouragement, but that increasingly Cincom's
customers were expected to swallow really-really hard and Cincom finally came to realize that they wouldn't. End result was that Cincom practically starved itself figuring out how to consume that damn elephant in one sitting and decided to find something else
to eat instead.</span></font></span></font></div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><font color="#0000ff" size="2" face="Arial"><span class="046405219-01122009"><font color="#0000ff" size="2" face="Arial"><span class="046405219-01122009"></span></font></span></font><font color="#0000ff" size="2" face="Arial"><span class="046405219-01122009"></span></font> </div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><font color="#0000ff" size="2" face="Arial"><span class="046405219-01122009">In general...</span></font></div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><font color="#0000ff" size="2" face="Arial"><span class="046405219-01122009"></span></font> </div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><font color="#0000ff" size="2" face="Arial"><span class="046405219-01122009">Focus on finding solutions to the small problems at hand; the bigger problems work themselves out over time and opportunities become easier to exploit.
In an environment of Liberty, you don't need to risk for grand ambitions because you have the daily satisfaction of having taken one step closer in a direction that was demonstrably correct and practical.
</span></font></div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><font color="#0000ff" size="2" face="Arial"><span class="046405219-01122009"></span></font><font color="#0000ff" size="2" face="Arial"><span class="046405219-01122009"></span></font><font color="#0000ff" size="2" face="Arial">
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><font color="#0000ff" size="2" face="Arial"><span class="046405219-01122009">
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><font color="#0000ff" size="2" face="Arial"><span class="046405219-01122009"></span></font> </div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><font color="#0000ff" size="2" face="Arial"><span class="046405219-01122009">Furthermore...</span></font></div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><font color="#0000ff" size="2" face="Arial"><span class="046405219-01122009"></span></font> </div>
</span></font></div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><font color="#0000ff" size="2" face="Arial"><span class="046405219-01122009">I want to see Cincom developers anxious to fix problems and incorporate solutions instead of being stressed by a list of scheduled requirements. The best
code often comes from a useful but complicated body of code that incrementally evolved into a work of art--to a form not originally anticipated. Bad code comes from replacing one complicated mass of code with another with some new forced twist--and then needing
to support both. Bad code happens from a legacy of resisting refinements to "working" code.</span></font></div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><font color="#0000ff" size="2" face="Arial"><span class="046405219-01122009"></span></font> </div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><font color="#0000ff" size="2" face="Arial"><span class="046405219-01122009">When I send a fix to Cincom, I want it released in product to customers within a month or two (this is why open-source works; not because it is "free").
There is a cost involved in sending code to Cincom instead of just hacking a workaround into place. It is cheaper to just fix the problem here and hope Cincom never changes code in a way that breaks a workaround. For several years now, that has unfortunately
been the most effective approach. Fix it and forget about wasting time sharing or even communicating the fix. I'd encourage a system that makes it more practical for me to share fixes with more than an excuse in return.</span></font></div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><font color="#0000ff" size="2" face="Arial"><span class="046405219-01122009"></span></font> </div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><font color="#0000ff" size="2" face="Arial"><span class="046405219-01122009">Cincom doesn't need to eat the entire elephant, but they do have to encourage others to join them at the table and offer them a carving knife and a fork.</span></font></div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><font color="#0000ff" size="2" face="Arial"><span class="046405219-01122009"></span></font><font color="#0000ff" size="2" face="Arial"></font> </div>
</font></div>
<div align="left"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><strong><font color="#333333" face="Arial">Paul Baumann</font></strong></span><font color="#333333" size="2" face="Arial"> <br>
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<font size="2" face="Tahoma"><b>From:</b> <a href="http://old.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=26600144&i=0" target="_top" rel="nofollow">vwnc-bounces@...</a> [mailto:<a href="http://old.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=26600144&i=1" target="_top" rel="nofollow">vwnc-bounces@...</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b><a href="http://old.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=26600144&i=2" target="_top" rel="nofollow">thomas.hawker@...</a><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, December 01, 2009 2:27 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="http://old.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=26600144&i=3" target="_top" rel="nofollow">thomas.hawker@...</a>; <a href="http://old.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=26600144&i=4" target="_top" rel="nofollow">tgriggs@...</a>; <a href="http://old.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=26600144&i=5" target="_top" rel="nofollow">vwnc@...</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [vwnc] Platform priorities<br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="maroon" size="2" face="Arial"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: maroon; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">I’ve spent the past couple of days reading through this entire list. In terms of GUI upgrades, especially for native widgets, could
someone please explain why that is really so infeasible? I must be dense, so could you use small words?
</span></font><font color="maroon" size="2" face="Wingdings"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Wingdings; COLOR: maroon; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">J</span></font><font color="maroon" size="2" face="Arial"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: maroon; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> While
it may take a release or two to get there, it seems that we have all of the pieces [or thought experiments] in place to do it:</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="maroon" size="2" face="Arial"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: maroon; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></span></font> </p>
<ol style="MARGIN-TOP: 0in" type="1">
<li style="COLOR: maroon" class="MsoNormal"><font color="maroon" size="2" face="Arial"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Move the GUI out of the VM. Use Cairo as the base. This permits
<i><span style="FONT-STYLE: italic">completely</span></i> headless images.</span></font>
</li><li style="COLOR: maroon" class="MsoNormal"><font color="maroon" size="2" face="Arial"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">For native widgets, do it all by DLL, even direct access to X11, Quartz, or whatnot.</span></font>
</li><li style="COLOR: maroon" class="MsoNormal"><font color="maroon" size="2" face="Arial"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">To facilitate this, resurrect Widgetry or at least move to something with cleaner structural separation.</span></font>
<ol style="MARGIN-TOP: 0in" type="a">
<li style="COLOR: maroon" class="MsoNormal"><font color="maroon" size="2" face="Arial"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">A pane could be an emulated pane or a native pane.</span></font>
</li><li style="COLOR: maroon" class="MsoNormal"><font color="maroon" size="2" face="Arial"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Native artists follow, which interface to the DLL calls to do what you want.</span></font>
</li><li style="COLOR: maroon" class="MsoNormal"><font color="maroon" size="2" face="Arial"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Native agents and event interaction could be facilitated by some of the multi-threaded VM discussions (such as that one
by Eliot).</span></font> </li><li style="COLOR: maroon" class="MsoNormal"><font color="maroon" size="2" face="Arial"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Build hierarchical and peer packages, so that you can move [gradually] to full implementation while providing immediate
functionality where you can. </span></font></li></ol>
</li><li style="COLOR: maroon" class="MsoNormal"><font color="maroon" size="2" face="Arial"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">I would add: give
<i><span style="FONT-STYLE: italic">serious</span></i> thought on how to dynamically memory-map segments to handle the chameleon effect (that is, map on reference without saving).</span></font>
</li></ol>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="maroon" size="2" face="Arial"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: maroon; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">
</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="maroon" size="2" face="Arial"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: maroon; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">I think one objective is to be able to do this polymorphically: native and emulated widgets on the same window. It can’t be such
a hard thing, since an emulated widget is really nothing more than a direct draw capability to the underlying window canvas. All the drawing primitives ultimately do that, so the adjustments should come naturally simply by moving behavior into the image.
Where we have “LookPolicy” we’d add “NativeUIPolicy” or something.</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="maroon" size="2" face="Arial"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: maroon; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></span></font> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="maroon" size="2" face="Arial"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: maroon; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">I’m not denying that this wouldn’t take some significant work, but at this stage it could at least be planned or prototyped.
</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="maroon" size="2" face="Arial"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: maroon; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></span></font> </p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" size="3" face="Bernard MT Condensed"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Bernard MT Condensed'; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Cheers!</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="maroon" size="3" face="Bookman Old Style"><span style="COLOR: maroon; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></span></font> </p>
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<p style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" class="MsoNormal" align="center"><font color="maroon" size="4" face="Bernard MT Condensed"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Bernard MT Condensed'; COLOR: maroon; FONT-SIZE: 14pt">Tom Hawker</span></font></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><font color="navy" size="2" face="Arial Narrow"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial Narrow'; COLOR: navy; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Senior Framework Developer</span></font></p>
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<p style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" class="MsoNormal" align="center"><b><font color="#339933" size="1" face="Arial"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #339933; FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-WEIGHT: bold"><img src="http://old.nabble.com/attachment/26600144/1/image002.gif" width="36" height="15">The
Environment:</span></font></b></p>
<p style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" class="MsoNormal" align="center"><b><i><font color="maroon" size="1" face="Arial"><span style="FONT-STYLE: italic; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: maroon; FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-WEIGHT: bold">We take it personally</span></font></i></b></p>
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<pre>IMPORTANT NOTICE
Email from OOCL is confidential and may be legally privileged. If it is not
intended for you, please delete it immediately unread. The internet
cannot guarantee that this communication is free of viruses, interception
or interference and anyone who communicates with us by email is taken
to accept the risks in doing so. Without limitation, OOCL and its affiliates
accept no liability whatsoever and howsoever arising in connection with
the use of this email. Under no circumstances shall this email constitute
a binding agreement to carry or for provision of carriage services by OOCL,
which is subject to the availability of carrier's equipment and vessels and
the terms and conditions of OOCL's standard bill of lading which is also
available at http://www.oocl.com.</pre>
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<br><a href="http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc" target="_top" rel="nofollow">http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc</a><br><p>From forum: <a href="http://old.nabble.com/VisualWorks-f14163.html" embed="fixTarget[14163]" target="_top" >VisualWorks</a></p>tag:old.nabble.com,2006:post-26599254Re: [vwnc] Platform priorities2009-12-01T13:09:53Z2009-12-01T13:09:53ZDmytryk, Igor<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
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<DIV><SPAN class=110035220-01122009><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Travis,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=110035220-01122009><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=110035220-01122009><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>I
share Tom's view. We are generally a "quiet" CINCOM customer...but
this thread makes me nervous. We tend to defer VW migrations because of
the extensive effort required in the past (we are currently on
7.2). My concern is that if previous "backward-compatible"
releases were painful for us, what extra effort may be needed for a
"non-backward-compatible" release? I would hope clients like us
get "consideration" during your release planning.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=110035220-01122009><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=110035220-01122009><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Interesting discussion.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=110035220-01122009><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=110035220-01122009><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Thanks,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=110035220-01122009><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=110035220-01122009><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Igor
Dmytryk</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=110035220-01122009><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Export
Development Canada</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=110035220-01122009><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>
<a href="http://old.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=26599254&i=0" target="_top" rel="nofollow">vwnc-bounces@...</a> [mailto:<a href="http://old.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=26599254&i=1" target="_top" rel="nofollow">vwnc-bounces@...</a>] <B>On Behalf Of
</B><a href="http://old.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=26599254&i=2" target="_top" rel="nofollow">thomas.hawker@...</a><BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, December 01, 2009 1:26
PM<BR><B>To:</B> <a href="http://old.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=26599254&i=3" target="_top" rel="nofollow">tgriggs@...</a>; <a href="http://old.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=26599254&i=4" target="_top" rel="nofollow">vwnc@...</a><BR><B>Subject:</B> Re:
[vwnc] Platform priorities<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=Section1>
<P class=MsoPlainText><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Travis,</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoPlainText><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">While I’m all for more frequent releases, especially
for bug fixes and incremental improvements and additions to the technology
base, I don’t see that it will be practical to limit backward
compatibility. The problem with your approach is that, in order to avoid
major migration hassles, you have to move your code base every new release, at
worst every other release. Our enterprise client is still running
VW5i! We’re planning on moving it to VW7.7 next year, but the project is
formidable. (We’ve already put more than a couple of man-years on it and
haven’t yet gotten to a reliable, testable code base.) With VW7.7 I have
to rewrite all of my Store extensions from VW7.6 because of the switchover to
Glorp.</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoPlainText><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Some level of backward compatibility is a must.
We might not need that much at the VM level, but we can’t afford to do major
platform (hardware or software) upgrades more than once every three
years. The kind of effort involved requires significant scheduling and
planning – typically on the order of 9 months or so. If you had VW
releases every 6-9 months, we’d be 3+ releases behind every time we scheduled
a migration. Extensive BWC support would be essential!</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoPlainText><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Cheers!</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoPlainText><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Tom Hawker</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoPlainText><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">--------------------------</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoPlainText><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Senior Framework Developer</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoPlainText><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">--------------------------</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoPlainText><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Home +1 (408)
274-4128</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoPlainText><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Office +1 (408)
576-6591</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoPlainText><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Mobile +1 (408)
835-3643</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoPlainText><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">-----Original Message-----<BR>From:
<a href="http://old.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=26599254&i=5" target="_top" rel="nofollow">vwnc-bounces@...</a> [mailto:<a href="http://old.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=26599254&i=6" target="_top" rel="nofollow">vwnc-bounces@...</a>] On Behalf Of Travis
Griggs<BR>Sent: Monday, November 30, 2009 4:52 PM<BR>To: VWNC List<BR>Subject:
Re: [vwnc] Platform priorities</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoPlainText><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">On Nov 30, 2009, at 2:04 PM, Steven Kelly
wrote:</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoPlainText><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">> A major change in VM graphics support would be a
new major number, </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoPlainText><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">> so there would be no expectation of backwards
compatibility. Some of </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoPlainText><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">> the 7.* VMs have broken backward compatibility
anyway in some way.</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoPlainText><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">So, I'm curious, just as a thought experiment. I can
completely </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoPlainText><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">guarantee, that this is completely Travis talking in a
"what if" sort </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoPlainText><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">of way, with absolutely no prior discussion about this
with any one </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoPlainText><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">else from Cincom, so you don't have to worry about
what this portends.</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoPlainText><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">What if the next few VW releases, at *most* a year
apart, possibly </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoPlainText><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">less, were a series of integral releases. VW 8, VW 9,
VW 10, etc. They </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoPlainText><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">wouldn't be backwards compatible, they may require
some work to </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoPlainText><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">upgrade code, but it couldn't be too bad, because the
release cycle </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoPlainText><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">was kept smaller (incremental) and we have the onus of
having to make </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoPlainText><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">the IDE and other tools work with any changes (eat our
own dogfood). </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoPlainText><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">But without the bw compat constraint, progress might
be made quicker.</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoPlainText><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Just curious.</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoPlainText><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">--</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoPlainText><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Travis Griggs</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoPlainText><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Objologist</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoPlainText><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">"An idea, like a ghost, must be spoken to a little
before it will </SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoPlainText><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">explain itself." - Charles Dickens</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoPlainText><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN></FONT> </P>
<P class=MsoPlainText><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">_______________________________________________</SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoPlainText><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">vwnc mailing list</SPAN></FONT></P>
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<P class=MsoPlainText><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc</SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
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<br><a href="http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc" target="_top" rel="nofollow">http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc</a><br><p>From forum: <a href="http://old.nabble.com/VisualWorks-f14163.html" embed="fixTarget[14163]" target="_top" >VisualWorks</a></p>tag:old.nabble.com,2006:post-26597944Re: [vwnc] Platform priorities2009-12-01T11:26:31Z2009-12-01T11:26:31Zthomas.hawker<html>
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<div class=Section1>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=maroon face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:maroon'>I’ve spent the past couple of days
reading through this entire list. In terms of GUI upgrades, especially
for native widgets, could someone please explain why that is really so
infeasible? I must be dense, so could you use small words? </span></font><font size=2 color=maroon face=Wingdings><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
Wingdings;color:maroon'>J</span></font><font size=2 color=maroon face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:maroon'> While it may
take a release or two to get there, it seems that we have all of the pieces [or
thought experiments] in place to do it:</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=maroon face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:maroon'> </span></font></p>
<ol style='margin-top:0in' start=1 type=1>
<li class=MsoNormal style='color:maroon'><font size=2 color=maroon face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Move the GUI out of the VM.
Use Cairo as the base. This permits <i><span style='font-style:italic'>completely</span></i>
headless images.</span></font></li>
<li class=MsoNormal style='color:maroon'><font size=2 color=maroon face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>For native widgets, do it all
by DLL, even direct access to X11, Quartz, or whatnot.</span></font></li>
<li class=MsoNormal style='color:maroon'><font size=2 color=maroon face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>To facilitate this, resurrect
Widgetry or at least move to something with cleaner structural separation.</span></font></li>
<ol style='margin-top:0in' start=1 type=a>
<li class=MsoNormal style='color:maroon'><font size=2 color=maroon face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>A pane could
be an emulated pane or a native pane.</span></font></li>
<li class=MsoNormal style='color:maroon'><font size=2 color=maroon face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Native
artists follow, which interface to the DLL calls to do what you want.</span></font></li>
<li class=MsoNormal style='color:maroon'><font size=2 color=maroon face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Native agents
and event interaction could be facilitated by some of the multi-threaded
VM discussions (such as that one by Eliot).</span></font></li>
<li class=MsoNormal style='color:maroon'><font size=2 color=maroon face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Build
hierarchical and peer packages, so that you can move [gradually] to full
implementation while providing immediate functionality where you can. </span></font></li>
</ol>
<li class=MsoNormal style='color:maroon'><font size=2 color=maroon face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>I would add: give <i><span style='font-style:italic'>serious</span></i> thought on how to dynamically
memory-map segments to handle the chameleon effect (that is, map on reference
without saving).</span></font></li>
</ol>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=maroon face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:maroon'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=maroon face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:maroon'>I think one objective is to be able to
do this polymorphically: native and emulated widgets on the same
window. It can’t be such a hard thing, since an emulated widget is really
nothing more than a direct draw capability to the underlying window
canvas. All the drawing primitives ultimately do that, so the adjustments
should come naturally simply by moving behavior into the image. Where we
have “LookPolicy” we’d add “NativeUIPolicy” or
something.</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=maroon face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:maroon'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=maroon face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:maroon'>I’m not denying that this wouldn’t
take some significant work, but at this stage it could at least be planned or
prototyped. </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=maroon face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:maroon'> </span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=navy face="Bernard MT Condensed"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Bernard MT Condensed";color:navy'>Cheers!</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=maroon face="Bookman Old Style"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:maroon'> </span></font></p>
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<br><a href="http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc" target="_top" rel="nofollow">http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc</a><br><p>From forum: <a href="http://old.nabble.com/VisualWorks-f14163.html" embed="fixTarget[14163]" target="_top" >VisualWorks</a></p>tag:old.nabble.com,2006:post-26597356Re: [vwnc] Anybody seen lockups like these?2009-12-01T10:52:11Z2009-12-01T10:52:11ZPaul Baumann<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
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<div dir="ltr" align="left"><font color="#0000ff" size="2" face="Arial"><span class="150384516-01122009">Sorry, I just double checked the VM version and found I'd been running 7.5 Apr 16 2007 VM on this box for at least a year now. I thought I'd been using
the 7.6 Feb 14 2008 VM used elsewhere. It was the 7.5 VM that locked on me yesterday. No, no VM technology involved in this configuration.</span></font></div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><font color="#0000ff" size="2" face="Arial"><span class="150384516-01122009"></span></font> </div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><font color="#0000ff" size="2" face="Arial"><span class="150384516-01122009">The clock diff and affinity issues bring back memories. One of those issues had been complicating some very deep debugging I was doing last year. I tried
going back to 7.5 VM on this box and I never configured back to 7.6 even after the presumed 7.6c fix.</span></font></div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><font color="#0000ff" size="2" face="Arial"><span class="150384516-01122009"></span></font><font color="#0000ff" size="2" face="Arial"><span class="150384516-01122009"></span></font> </div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><font color="#0000ff" size="2" face="Arial"><span class="150384516-01122009">Dennis,</span></font></div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><font color="#0000ff" size="2" face="Arial"><span class="150384516-01122009"></span></font> </div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><font color="#0000ff" size="2" face="Arial"><span class="150384516-01122009">Back in Feb'08 I found that assigning affinity fixed VW performance issues that only seemed to happen on Intel hyper-threading processors. I wonder if both
are related to the same problem. Slow down waiting for an exaggerated future time value; freeze waiting for a past time value. The common factor being time reporting variances between HT core switches. VM technology (like VMWare or Xen) might be a another
variation of the same time-diff problem even if not on a HT processor. In any case, it looks like Andres thinks the problem should be fixed in 7.6c or later VM.</span></font></div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><font color="#0000ff" size="2" face="Arial"><span class="150384516-01122009"></span></font> </div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><strong><font color="#333333" face="Arial">Paul Baumann</font></strong></span><font color="#333333" size="2" face="Arial"> <br>
</font></div>
<div><font color="#0000ff" size="2" face="Arial"></font> </div>
<br>
<div dir="ltr" lang="en-us" class="OutlookMessageHeader" align="left">
<hr tabindex="-1">
<font size="2" face="Tahoma"><b>From:</b> Valloud, Andres [mailto:<a href="http://old.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=26597356&i=0" target="_top" rel="nofollow">avalloud@...</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, November 30, 2009 8:50 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Dennis Smith; Paul Baumann<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href="http://old.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=26597356&i=1" target="_top" rel="nofollow">vwnc@...</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: [vwnc] Anybody seen lockups like these?<br>
<b>Importance:</b> High<br>
</font><br>
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<div></div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><font color="#0000ff" size="2" face="Arial"><span class="143074901-01122009">I would be very interested in any information related to VM misbehavior controlled by core / cpu affinity. With that said, I'd suggest trying a 7.6c or
later VM.</span></font></div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><font color="#0000ff" size="2" face="Arial"><span class="143074901-01122009"></span></font> </div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><font color="#0000ff" size="2" face="Arial"><span class="143074901-01122009">Andres.</span></font></div>
<br>
<div dir="ltr" lang="en-us" class="OutlookMessageHeader" align="left">
<hr tabindex="-1">
<font size="2" face="Tahoma"><b>From:</b> <a href="http://old.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=26597356&i=2" target="_top" rel="nofollow">vwnc-bounces@...</a> [mailto:<a href="http://old.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=26597356&i=3" target="_top" rel="nofollow">vwnc-bounces@...</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Dennis Smith<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, November 30, 2009 4:46 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Paul Baumann<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href="http://old.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=26597356&i=4" target="_top" rel="nofollow">vwnc@...</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [vwnc] Anybody seen lockups like these?<br>
</font><br>
</div>
<div></div>
Any chance you were running on a multi-cpu VM-ware (or Xen) system?<br>
<br>
We had a problem like this with XEN that seemed related to clocks differing significantly<br>
from CPU to CPU and we had to use the affinity controls to keep the VW image on one CPU.<br>
<br>
Paul Baumann wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid:3FCC5C63F3371940900A2160FD399FD3F8F8F6A9@at-bp-ixmx-02.CPEX.com" type="cite">
<meta name="GENERATOR" content="MSHTML 8.00.6001.18828">
<div><font size="2" face="Arial"><span class="473203821-30112009">vwnt.exe (VW 7.6 VM) jumped to using 100% of one CPU core and could not be interrupted. No memory growth. I'd only clicked in a code browser window (perhaps involving a store query). Process
Explorer stack information for vwnt.exe showed this:</span></font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial">ntkrnlpa.exe+0x6e9ab<br>
ntkrnlpa.exe!MmIsDriverVerifying+0xbb0<br>
hal.dll+0x2ef2<br>
vwntoe.dll!registerInRt+0x2fb54<br>
</font></div>
<div><span class="473203821-30112009"><font size="2" face="Arial">Google searches suggest a driver problem. Not sure which driver or why now, but I'm glad my work was saved first.</font></span></div>
<div> </div>
<div align="left"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><strong><font color="#333333" face="Arial">Paul Baumann</font></strong></span><font color="#333333" size="2" face="Arial"> <br>
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<br><a href="http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc" target="_top" rel="nofollow">http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc</a><br><p>From forum: <a href="http://old.nabble.com/VisualWorks-f14163.html" embed="fixTarget[14163]" target="_top" >VisualWorks</a></p>tag:old.nabble.com,2006:post-26596889Re: [vwnc] Platform priorities2009-12-01T10:26:12Z2009-12-01T10:26:12Zthomas.hawker<html>
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<div class=Section1>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>Travis,</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>While I’m all for more frequent releases, especially for bug
fixes and incremental improvements and additions to the technology base, I don’t
see that it will be practical to limit backward compatibility. The
problem with your approach is that, in order to avoid major migration hassles,
you have to move your code base every new release, at worst every other release.
Our enterprise client is still running VW5i! We’re planning on
moving it to VW7.7 next year, but the project is formidable. (We’ve
already put more than a couple of man-years on it and haven’t yet gotten
to a reliable, testable code base.) With VW7.7 I have to rewrite all of
my Store extensions from VW7.6 because of the switchover to Glorp.</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>Some level of backward compatibility is a must. We might not need
that much at the VM level, but we can’t afford to do major platform
(hardware or software) upgrades more than once every three years. The
kind of effort involved requires significant scheduling and planning – typically
on the order of 9 months or so. If you had VW releases every 6-9 months,
we’d be 3+ releases behind every time we scheduled a migration. Extensive
BWC support would be essential!</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>Cheers!</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>Tom Hawker</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>--------------------------</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>Senior Framework Developer</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>--------------------------</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>Home +1 (408) 274-4128</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>Office +1 (408) 576-6591</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
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<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>-----Original Message-----<br>
From: <a href="http://old.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=26596889&i=0" target="_top" rel="nofollow">vwnc-bounces@...</a> [mailto:<a href="http://old.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=26596889&i=1" target="_top" rel="nofollow">vwnc-bounces@...</a>] On Behalf Of Travis
Griggs<br>
Sent: Monday, November 30, 2009 4:52 PM<br>
To: VWNC List<br>
Subject: Re: [vwnc] Platform priorities</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>On Nov 30, 2009, at 2:04 PM, Steven Kelly wrote:</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>> A major change in VM graphics support would be a new major
number, </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>> so there would be no expectation of backwards compatibility. Some
of </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>> the 7.* VMs have broken backward compatibility anyway in some way.</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>So, I'm curious, just as a thought experiment. I can completely </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>guarantee, that this is completely Travis talking in a "what
if" sort </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>of way, with absolutely no prior discussion about this with any
one </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>else from Cincom, so you don't have to worry about what this portends.</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>What if the next few VW releases, at *most* a year apart,
possibly </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>less, were a series of integral releases. VW 8, VW 9, VW 10, etc.
They </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>wouldn't be backwards compatible, they may require some work to </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>upgrade code, but it couldn't be too bad, because the release
cycle </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>was kept smaller (incremental) and we have the onus of having to
make </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>the IDE and other tools work with any changes (eat our own
dogfood). </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>But without the bw compat constraint, progress might be made quicker.</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>Just curious.</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>--</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>Travis Griggs</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>Objologist</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>"An idea, like a ghost, must be spoken to a little before it
will </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>explain itself." - Charles Dickens</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'> </span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>_______________________________________________</span></font></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
10.0pt'>vwnc mailing list</span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:
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<br><a href="http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc" target="_top" rel="nofollow">http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc</a><br><p>From forum: <a href="http://old.nabble.com/VisualWorks-f14163.html" embed="fixTarget[14163]" target="_top" >VisualWorks</a></p>tag:old.nabble.com,2006:post-26594040Re: [vwnc] Platform priorities2009-12-01T07:45:37Z2009-12-01T07:45:37ZMike HalesI would gladly trade a little more work in porting/upgrading to a new
release for an acceleration in progress in the base system. Especially
with regards to GUI and graphics.<br><br><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
What if the next few VW releases, at *most* a year apart, possibly<br>
less, were a series of integral releases. VW 8, VW 9, VW 10, etc. They<br>
wouldn't be backwards compatible, they may require some work to<br>
upgrade code, but it couldn't be too bad, because the release cycle<br>
was kept smaller (incremental) and we have the onus of having to make<br>
the IDE and other tools work with any changes (eat our own dogfood).<br>
But without the bw compat constraint, progress might be made quicker.<br>
<br></blockquote></div><br><br><br clear="all">Mike Hales<br>Engineering Manager<br>KnowledgeScape<br><a href="http://www.kscape.com" target="_top" rel="nofollow">www.kscape.com</a><br>
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<br><a href="http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc" target="_top" rel="nofollow">http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc</a><br><p>From forum: <a href="http://old.nabble.com/VisualWorks-f14163.html" embed="fixTarget[14163]" target="_top" >VisualWorks</a></p>tag:old.nabble.com,2006:post-26592061Re: [vwnc] Platform priorities2009-12-01T05:39:42Z2009-12-01T05:39:42ZMaarten Mostert<br>It would be really interesting to know what cincoms engineering team is thinking about this subject:
<br><br><a href="http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/vm-dev/2009-November/003405.html" target="_top" rel="nofollow">http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/vm-dev/2009-November/003405.html</a><br><br>If I understand this corrently (not sure though) this solution can theoretically be integrated int he VW and then
<br>provide a true solution for animations which as we all know are an integral part of modern UI's.
<br><br>@+Maarten,
<br><br><div class='shrinkable-quote'><br>> Message du 30/11/09 01:46
<br>> De : "Eliot Miranda"
<br>> A : "vwnc NC"
<br>> Copie à :
<br>> Objet : Re: [vwnc] Platform priorities
<br>>
<br>> On Sun, Nov 29, 2009 at 3:33 PM, Andre Schnoor wrote:
<br>>
<br>> >
<br>> > Am 29.11.2009 um 21:55 schrieb Eliot Miranda:
<br>> >
<br>> > And for that you get to discard the event queue road block in the VM and
<br>> > hook up to native event pumps. What would make that much easier is throwing
<br>> > away my overengineered and underperformant threaded FFI in place of David
<br>> > Simmons' architecture that I've recently implemented in Squeak. But that
<br>> > can be done independently in parallel.
<br>> >
<br>> > That'll be a huge step towards a much smaller much more focussed VM which
<br>> > doesn't get in the way of APIs and concentrates on providing effective fast
<br>> > and simple access to them.
<br>> >
<br>> >
<br>> > I absolutely agree, but, at least on the Mac this would need a natively
<br>> > multi-threaded VM, as all GUI code is required to run on the thread that
<br>> > owns the event loop. This can not be achieved with green threads.
<br>> >
<br>>
<br>> I'm not talking about green threads ;) See
<br>> <a href="http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/vm-dev/2009-November/003405.html" target="_top" rel="nofollow">http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/vm-dev/2009-November/003405.html</a><br>>
<br>>
<br>> > Andre
<br>> >
<br>> >
<br>>
<br>>
<br>> [ (pas de nom de fichier) (0.1 Ko) ]
</div><br><br>_______________________________________________
<br>vwnc mailing list
<br><a href="http://old.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=26592061&i=0" target="_top" rel="nofollow">vwnc@...</a>
<br><a href="http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc" target="_top" rel="nofollow">http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc</a><br><p>From forum: <a href="http://old.nabble.com/VisualWorks-f14163.html" embed="fixTarget[14163]" target="_top" >VisualWorks</a></p>tag:old.nabble.com,2006:post-26591058Re: [bug] backtrace shown upside-down2009-12-01T04:37:20Z2009-12-01T04:37:20ZGwenael Casaccio-2Issue status update for
<br><a href="http://smalltalk.gnu.org/project/issue/424" target="_top" rel="nofollow">http://smalltalk.gnu.org/project/issue/424</a><br>Post a follow up:
<br><a href="http://smalltalk.gnu.org/project/comments/add/424" target="_top" rel="nofollow">http://smalltalk.gnu.org/project/comments/add/424</a><br><br> Project: GNU Smalltalk
<br> Version: <none>
<br> Component: VisualGST
<br> Category: bug reports
<br> Priority: critical
<br> Assigned to: MrGwen
<br> Reported by: bonzinip
<br> Updated by: MrGwen
<br>-Status: active
<br>+Status: committed
<br><br>You will be no more puzzled ;)
<br><br><br><br><br>_______________________________________________
<br>help-smalltalk mailing list
<br><a href="http://old.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=26591058&i=0" target="_top" rel="nofollow">help-smalltalk@...</a>
<br><a href="http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/help-smalltalk" target="_top" rel="nofollow">http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/help-smalltalk</a><br><p>From forum: <a href="http://old.nabble.com/Gnu---Smalltalk-f1791.html" embed="fixTarget[1791]" target="_top" >Gnu - Smalltalk</a></p>tag:old.nabble.com,2006:post-26589760Re: [vwnc] [Bulk] Re: Does Cincom give up the Desktop ?2009-12-01T02:23:41Z2009-12-01T02:23:41ZMadhu-21<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=text/html;charset=iso-8859-1 http-equiv=Content-Type>
<META name=GENERATOR content="MSHTML 8.00.6001.18852"></HEAD>
<BODY style="PADDING-LEFT: 10px; PADDING-RIGHT: 10px; PADDING-TOP: 15px" id=MailContainerBody leftMargin=0 topMargin=0 bgColor=#ffffff CanvasTabStop="true" name="Compose message area">
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Verdana>>>>>I'm afraid that explanation
doesn't help me to understand what it is that you are having a problem
with.....</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV><FONT size=2 face=Verdana>
<DIV><BR>I completely agree ObjectStudio 8 supports ActiveX controls, its that
some ActiveX controls which were working in ObjectStudio Classic do not work
anymore with ObjectStudio 8. I had reported some of the problems to the
ObjectStudio mailing list.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>>>Designer:<BR>The designer had never been friendly for users. But
over the time I got used to<BR>it. Now with newer ObjectStudio versions, it has
become even more unfriendly.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>>>>>Could you be more specific?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><BR>Here are few specific examples:</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>For my tests, I used ObjectStudio 8.1 on Windows Vista Ultimate.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>1. Start ObjectStudio, create new controller, add a new static text to the
form, double click on it. You would observe that the current focus is in the
Name field and the name is not shown completely. Press 'Home' key, then it would
be shown.<BR>2. Start ObjectStudio, create new controller, add four buttons to
the form, holding the control key, click on each button to select all buttons.
You would observe that its not visible which buttons are selected and which are
not.<BR>3. Start ObjectStudio, create new controller, add four buttons to the
form, place them horizontally next to each other, now with the mouse try to
select the two buttons on to the right, you would observe that instead of
selecting the two buttons on the right, the two buttons on the left would be
selected (sometimes only the left most button is selected).</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>These problems might be small ones but they are quite annoying. Problems
like these started to appear from ObjectStudio 7.1.2 or 7.1.3 onwards.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><BR>>>IDE:<BR>In <A title="http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/userblogs/cincom/blogView?content=roadmap CTRL + Click to follow link" href="http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/userblogs/cincom/blogView?content=roadmap" target="_top" rel="nofollow">http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/userblogs/cincom/blogView?content=roadmap</A>
this<BR>was in the priority list for ObjectStudio 8: Update the look of the IDE
with<BR>modern widgets. I would have preferred the feel of IDE to be on the
priority list<BR>rather than the look of the IDE. From time to time, I work with
.net IDE, I still<BR>prefer ObjectStudio classic class browser over the nice
looking .net IDE.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>>>>>I believe that item is the same thing you're asking for 3
points earlier, updating the native widgets.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><BR>Not really. 3 points earlier I was talking about the end user
application look and this one is regarding the IDE. For me, in the case of IDE,
the first priority would be the feel and then the look. Here's an example of
what I mean: In the refactoring browser, copying some text to cliboard and then
using Ctrl+V to paste it in the browser would select the pasted text. One day I
saw James posted in one of his screencasts "Platform Faithful Pasting in VW",
then I asked if we can make the cursor to blink, Michael replied saying that its
there in public store but not integrated. In my opinion, these things should get
priority so that these are made available by default in ObjectStudio and for
existing ObjectStudio users, it would be closer to how they are used to work
with Classic versions.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Regards,<BR>Madhu.</DIV>
<DIV></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt Tahoma">
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #f5f5f5">
<DIV style="font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <a href="http://old.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=26589760&i=0" target="_top" rel="nofollow">knight@...</a> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Monday, November 30, 2009 11:30 PM</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <a href="http://old.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=26589760&i=1" target="_top" rel="nofollow">pom@...</a> ; <a href="http://old.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=26589760&i=2" target="_top" rel="nofollow">vwnc@...</a>
</DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Bulk] Re: [vwnc] Does Cincom give up the Desktop
?</DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>I'm afraid that explanation doesn't help me to understand what it
is that you are having a problem with. See below.<BR><BR><FONT size=3>My
intention was not to say that ObjectStudio 8 doesn't support ActiveX
controls.<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=cite cite="" type="cite">My intention in that matter was the
following:<BR><BR>Can existing customers get the latest ObjectStudio 8 /
VisualWorks and deploy<BR>their applications using ActiveX controls? The
answer is no.</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>It is? As far as I know, ObjectStudio 8 has
supported ActiveX controls all along. VisualWorks has not, but the 7.7 release
will.<BR><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=cite cite="" type="cite"><FONT size=3>Can new users get the
latest ObjectStudio 8 and try out ActiveX controls? The<BR>answer is
no.</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I don't understand this.<BR><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=cite cite="" type="cite"><FONT size=3>For ObjectStudio
Classic, the answer for both questions above is Yes. So my<BR>intention was to
say ActiveX controls do not work with ObjectStudio 8.<BR><BR>Since you said
its not obvious that X needs to be done, I would like to mention<BR>few
points:<BR><BR>GUI:<BR><BR>I guess Visual Works emulates the GUI, so I can
think of problems supporting<BR>different operating systems, but ObjectStudio
uses Windows native controls and<BR>still ObjectStudio doesn't even have the
look of Windows XP.</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Yes, we're well aware of that, and we
have a project underway to do a major reworking of the ObjectStudio widgets to
bring that up to speed. The issue there is primarily that the widgets were
written with Microsoft's preferred technology of the time (MFC) which they have
since deprecated, and the widgets really need to be pulled out of it. So that
work is in progress.<BR><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=cite cite="" type="cite"><FONT size=3>Modelling
tool:<BR><BR>I have been using ObjectStudio for over a decade now, and I never
really used<BR>Modelling tool, because every now and then debugger used to pop
up. Today, in our<BR>application, we have around 3000 to 4000 classes and as
an existing customer, I<BR>would say that Modelling tool is not going to help
us in any way. Sometime in<BR>future, we plan to use Glorp, in that case too,
we would not use Modelling tool.<BR>In the cincomsmalltalk website<BR>(<A href="http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/userblogs/cincom/blogView?content=roadmap" eudora="autourl" target="_top" rel="nofollow">
http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/userblogs/cincom/blogView?content=roadmap</A> )
it was<BR>clearly mentioned that its for new users and this in on Cincom's
priority list.<BR>For us as existing customer this has no priority at
all.</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Using Glorp would not be a problem with the
Modelling tool. In fact, the revised Mapping tool will use Glorp, and it works
with the Modelling tool.<BR><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=cite cite="" type="cite"><FONT size=3>Designer:<BR><BR>The
designer had never been friendly for users. But over the time I got used
to<BR>it. Now with newer ObjectStudio versions, it has become even more
unfriendly.</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Could you be more specific?<BR><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=cite cite="" type="cite"><FONT size=3>IDE:<BR><BR>In <A href="http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/userblogs/cincom/blogView?content=roadmap" eudora="autourl" target="_top" rel="nofollow">http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/userblogs/cincom/blogView?content=roadmap</A>
this<BR>was in the priority list for ObjectStudio 8: Update the look of the
IDE with<BR>modern widgets. I would have preferred the feel of IDE to be on
the priority list<BR>rather than the look of the IDE. From time to time, I
work with .net IDE, I still<BR>prefer ObjectStudio classic class browser over
the nice looking .net IDE.</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I believe that item is the
same thing you're asking for 3 points earlier, updating the native
widgets.<BR><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=cite cite="" type="cite"><FONT size=3>Regards,<BR>Madhu.<BR><BR>On Fri 27/11/09 19:06 , Alan Knight
<a href="http://old.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=26589760&i=3" target="_top" rel="nofollow">aknight@...</a> sent:<div class='shrinkable-quote'><BR>> Responding to various different messages in
one...<BR>> <BR>> First off, thanks to everyone for the input. We
very much need ot<BR>> hear from people which things they feel are
important for us to be<BR>> working on. You may think it's obvious that X
needs to be done, but<BR>> there are quite a lot of large X's that need to
be done, and we still<BR>> have to pick and choose between them, with
limited resources.<BR>> <BR>> We certainly haven't given up on desktop
development. I actually<BR>> think we've done quite a bit with respect to
that recently, but<BR>> there's still obviously a great deal more. Updating
the look and feels<BR>> is something we really ought to have gotten to in
this release, but<BR>> didn't. With specific regard to Vista, there are
issues if we want to<BR>> make it look like Aero, which uses graphical
techniques that our<BR>> system currently can't do. Non-Aero Vista would, I
think, be fairly<BR>> easy, at least from what I see, because I run Vista
under VMWare and<BR>> it doesn't look all that different from XP. <BR>>
<BR>> Supporting those kinds of graphical techniques our system can't
do<BR>> is also obviously important. We've been moving forward, albeit
slowly,<BR>> on using Cairo to provide that. We expect to continue doing
so,<BR>> hopefully faster. I can give you some contact numbers for people
to<BR>> talk to regarding our staffing.<BR>> <BR>> On a few of the
specific points<BR>> - Fonts were mentioned a couple of times, once
regarding "ugly<BR>> fonts", which I interpret to mean "anti-aliased fonts
under X<BR>> Windows", and once urging us to use native fonts and not use
generic<BR>> substitutes. I think that might be a vote against using the
Pango<BR>> sister package to Cairo in order to achieve the former, but
maybe it<BR>> means something else. Fonts in general are something we know
needs<BR>> work, but are a pretty major piece of work that we haven't done
yet.<BR>> <BR>> - There was a mention of using MenuBuilder as the only
way to<BR>> build menus, removing other mechanisms. In general terms,
that sounds<BR>> like the sort of thing we're reluctant to do, because it
means that<BR>> people's older code won't run. We can do that where it's
necessary,<BR>> but it has to be well motivated before we impose additional
burden on<BR>> customers who want to update to newer versions. It's not
obvious to me<BR>> from the request what the expected benefit is of
disallowing the<BR>> others. The poster with 3000+ canvases in production
might not<BR>> appreciate having to redo all the menus.<BR>> <BR>> -
There was a mention of ActiveX support in ObjectStudio Classic<BR>> but not
in ObjectStudio 8 that makes it sound as if ObjectStudio 8<BR>> doesn't
support ActiveX controls. That's not the case. ObjectStudio 8<BR>> has full
support for ActiveX controls. And as of 7.7 VisualWorks also<BR>> has the
ability to embed ActiveX controls.<BR>> <BR>> Finally, the initial
message in this thread came after listening to<BR>> one of Jim's podcasts,
and referred both to Arden Thomas (our product<BR>> manager) and his
comments, but to a number of things Michael<BR>> Lucas-Smith had talked
about in other podcasts. I thinks it's<BR>> advisable not to put so much
weight on things in the podcasts. I<BR>> haven't listened to it myself, but
I suspect that Arden's comments<BR>> focused on major items and didn't
talk, for example, about the 250 or<BR>> so ARs that we have in this
release under the categories of GUI and<BR>> tools, most of which are
smaller, but still quite important. And that<BR>> doesn't count things like
the large amount of work on locales and<BR>> internationalization. I hope
that a few of our customers will find the<BR>> ability of users to
successfully enter and view characters in a much<BR>> wider range of
circumstances to be useful for desktop applications.<BR>> <BR>> In
general, comments in such forums shouldn't be taken as<BR>> commitments,
particularly comments from engineers about something<BR>> being important,
or easy. Unless the comment is of the form, "I have<BR>> been working on
and have almost finished..." then I'd call it<BR>> speculation, not a basis
for expecting something will necessarily be<BR>> done, or that that person
will be working on it.<BR>> -- Alan Knight [|], Engineering Manager, Cincom
Smalltalk<BR>> <a href="http://old.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=26589760&i=4" target="_top" rel="nofollow">knight@...</a> <a href="http://old.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=26589760&i=5" target="_top" rel="nofollow">aknight@...</a> <A href="http://www.cincom.com/smalltalk" eudora="autourl" target="_top" rel="nofollow">http://www.cincom.com/smalltalk</A> [1]<BR>> <BR>>
<BR>> Links:<BR>> ------<BR>> [1] <A href="http://www.cincom.com/smalltalk" eudora="autourl" target="_top" rel="nofollow">http://www.cincom.com/smalltalk</A><BR>> <BR>>
</div><BR><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>vwnc mailing
list<BR><a href="http://old.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=26589760&i=6" target="_top" rel="nofollow">vwnc@...</a><BR><A href="http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc" eudora="autourl" target="_top" rel="nofollow">http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc</A></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<DIV>--</DIV>
<DIV>Alan Knight [|], Engineering Manager, Cincom Smalltalk</DIV>
<DIV><a href="http://old.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=26589760&i=7" target="_top" rel="nofollow">knight@...</a></DIV>
<DIV><a href="http://old.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=26589760&i=8" target="_top" rel="nofollow">aknight@...</a></DIV>
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<br />_______________________________________________
<br>vwnc mailing list
<br><a href="http://old.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=26589760&i=9" target="_top" rel="nofollow">vwnc@...</a>
<br><a href="http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc" target="_top" rel="nofollow">http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc</a><br><p>From forum: <a href="http://old.nabble.com/VisualWorks-f14163.html" embed="fixTarget[14163]" target="_top" >VisualWorks</a></p>tag:old.nabble.com,2006:post-26589339Re: [vwnc] Platform priorities2009-12-01T01:53:25Z2009-12-01T01:53:25ZHolger KleinsorgenTravis Griggs wrote:
<br>> On Nov 30, 2009, at 2:04 PM, Steven Kelly wrote:
<br>>
<br><br>> What if the next few VW releases, at *most* a year apart, possibly
<br>> less, were a series of integral releases. VW 8, VW 9, VW 10, etc. They
<br>> wouldn't be backwards compatible, they may require some work to
<br>> upgrade code, but it couldn't be too bad, because the release cycle
<br>> was kept smaller (incremental) and we have the onus of having to make
<br>> the IDE and other tools work with any changes (eat our own dogfood).
<br>> But without the bw compat constraint, progress might be made quicker.
<br><br>If there are changes that are not backwards compatible, upgrading has to
<br>be worth the effort, either for our customers, or us as developers
<br>(perferably both ;). Changes are not bad. Backwards compatibility has a
<br>price, too.
<br><br>Besides, switching to a new VW release already means adjusting various
<br>packages. These are usually either development tools/extensions, or base
<br>patches.
<br><br>If the changes consist of code cleanups/changes that make it "just"
<br>easier for Cincom to implement other stuff, or just feel better, then
<br>answer would be probably "no", though. That doesn't mean that those
<br>changes are not welcome, or not necessary.
<br><br><br>Additionaly, to maintain the current stable release, this release model
<br>could be a accompanied by a "public patch repository":
<br><br>- upon release, the whole supported code base is published to a
<br>repository (read-only)
<br><br>- patches are published to this repository.
<br><br>This way, patches are more visible and easier to fetch than from the
<br>resoultion portal, which I strongly dislike because it's a totally
<br>seperate system.
<br><br>_______________________________________________
<br>vwnc mailing list
<br><a href="http://old.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=26589339&i=0" target="_top" rel="nofollow">vwnc@...</a>
<br><a href="http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc" target="_top" rel="nofollow">http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc</a><br><p>From forum: <a href="http://old.nabble.com/VisualWorks-f14163.html" embed="fixTarget[14163]" target="_top" >VisualWorks</a></p>tag:old.nabble.com,2006:post-26588970Re: [vwnc] Platform priorities2009-12-01T01:22:07Z2009-12-01T01:22:07ZAndre Schnoor<br>Am 01.12.2009 um 01:52 schrieb Travis Griggs:
<br><br>> What if the next few VW releases, at *most* a year apart, possibly
<br>> less, were a series of integral releases. VW 8, VW 9, VW 10, etc. They
<br>> wouldn't be backwards compatible, they may require some work to
<br>> upgrade code, but it couldn't be too bad, because the release cycle
<br>> was kept smaller (incremental) and we have the onus of having to make
<br>> the IDE and other tools work with any changes (eat our own dogfood).
<br>> But without the bw compat constraint, progress might be made quicker.
<br><br>That's a thought into the right direction, IMO.
<br><br>I always dreamt of a spin-off redone from scratch, based on the "best
<br>of" we currently have, getting rid of old stuff that gets in the way
<br>of a lean and modern Smalltalk platform. That would mean carrying
<br>everything to the current state of the art without worrying about
<br>backwards compatibility.
<br><br>Eventually existing VW apps could be ported/moved to that next
<br>generation platform incrementally. It shouldn't be too hard to fire up
<br>some tools that translate to new idioms.
<br><br>Andre
<br><br>_______________________________________________
<br>vwnc mailing list
<br><a href="http://old.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=26588970&i=0" target="_top" rel="nofollow">vwnc@...</a>
<br><a href="http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc" target="_top" rel="nofollow">http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc</a><br><p>From forum: <a href="http://old.nabble.com/VisualWorks-f14163.html" embed="fixTarget[14163]" target="_top" >VisualWorks</a></p>tag:old.nabble.com,2006:post-26588986Re: [vwnc] Platform priorities2009-12-01T01:15:06Z2009-12-01T01:15:06ZHolger KleinsorgenTravis Griggs wrote:
<br>> From a low level point of view, what you see in preview, is the basic
<br>> approach we *will* stick to with Cairo. We provide a precompiled DLL.
<br>> You don't have to download it, you don't have to compile it. It's
<br>> placed right next to your VM, so you don't even have to move it, other
<br>> than if you move the VM, you have to move the dll along with it.
<br>>
<br>> The CairoGraphics package might get integrated directly into
<br>> visual.im, or even base.im, who knows. But the C library will not be
<br>> compiled into the VM.
<br><br>dynamically linking the Cairo library is IMHO an advantage. If Cairo
<br>evolves (new features, bugfixes, performance improvements), we can
<br>immediately switch to the new version, instead of having to wait for the
<br>next VM build (which might include other "unwanted" changes).
<br><br>_______________________________________________
<br>vwnc mailing list
<br><a href="http://old.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=26588986&i=0" target="_top" rel="nofollow">vwnc@...</a>
<br><a href="http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc" target="_top" rel="nofollow">http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc</a><br><p>From forum: <a href="http://old.nabble.com/VisualWorks-f14163.html" embed="fixTarget[14163]" target="_top" >VisualWorks</a></p>tag:old.nabble.com,2006:post-26588980Re: [vwnc] Platform priorities2009-12-01T01:14:29Z2009-12-01T01:14:29ZSteven Kelly<div class='shrinkable-quote'>> Here is a list of supported platforms for VisualWorks 7.7. Or at least
<br>> close, I've probably got an error or two in here:
<br>>
<br>> Windows 2000+
<br>> MacOS X 10.4+
<br>> MaxOS X - X11
<br>> HP-UX 11.11+
<br>> IBM AIX 5.2+
<br>> Linux32/x86 (2.4 kernel, up to ancient versions of X11)+
<br>> Linux64/x86 (2.4 kernel, up to ancient versions of X11)+
<br>> Linux32/PPC (2.4 kernel, up to ancient versions of X11)+
<br>> Solaris/Sparc32 8+
<br>> Solaris/Sparc64 8+
<br>>
<br>>
<br>> We provide a turnkey precompiled library for Cairo for the first two
<br>> in the list. Getting that was not too hard, but it IS work. Work that
<br>> will go on. As we move into these other platforms, it gets harder.
</div><br>As long as Cairo was (is?) an experiment, it was fine to support only
<br>certain platforms. Whatever happens to Cairo, VW definitely needs a
<br>major overhaul of its graphics capabilities. For that to work, the new
<br>facilities need to completely replace the old ones. You simply don't
<br>have the resources to support two radically different graphics engines
<br>on every platform (I only presume to tell you this because I'm sure you
<br>know it anyway!).
<br><br>If Cairo is to be the new engine - and it looks the best bet at the
<br>moment - it would ideally work everywhere. Getting the X11 version
<br>working would probably cover most of the work for the remaining
<br>platforms, so the situation perhaps isn't as bad as it looks (based on
<br>what I understand of the similarities in current graphics code in the VM
<br>for those X11 platforms).
<br><br>If there is a real show-stopper in getting Cairo working on the *nix
<br>platforms, I suppose you'd have to consider keeping it in the VM, so you
<br>can better hide the difference between Cairo and non-Cairo platforms.
<br>The non-Cairo platforms simply wouldn't support alpha, antialiasing
<br>etc., and would draw gradient fills with a single colour.
<br><br>Steve
<br><br>_______________________________________________
<br>vwnc mailing list
<br><a href="http://old.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=26588980&i=0" target="_top" rel="nofollow">vwnc@...</a>
<br><a href="http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc" target="_top" rel="nofollow">http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc</a><br><p>From forum: <a href="http://old.nabble.com/VisualWorks-f14163.html" embed="fixTarget[14163]" target="_top" >VisualWorks</a></p>tag:old.nabble.com,2006:post-26588715current line not highlighted in debugger2009-12-01T01:11:59Z2009-12-01T01:11:59ZGwenael Casaccio-2Hi,
<br><br>There is the patch for the text highlight in the debugger in the
<br>attachment.
<br><br>Gwen
<br><br /><tt>[highlight.diff]</tt><br /><hr align="left" width="300" /><tt>diff --git a/Debugger/GtkDebugger.st b/Debugger/GtkDebugger.st
<br>index 374d59c..9b14723 100644
<br>--- a/Debugger/GtkDebugger.st
<br>+++ b/Debugger/GtkDebugger.st
<br>@@ -7,6 +7,14 @@ GtkMainWindow subclass: GtkDebugger [
<br> ^ nil
<br> ]
<br>
<br>+ GtkDebugger class >> open [
<br>+ <category: 'user interface'>
<br>+
<br>+ ^ super open
<br>+ resize: 1024@600;
<br>+ yourself
<br>+ ]
<br>+
<br> GtkDebugger class >> open: aString [
<br> <category: 'user interface'>
<br>
<br>@@ -20,7 +28,7 @@ GtkMainWindow subclass: GtkDebugger [
<br> GtkDebugger class >> debuggerClass [
<br> <category: 'debugging interface'>
<br>
<br>- ^nil
<br>+ ^ nil
<br> ]
<br>
<br> GtkDebugger class >> debuggingPriority [
<br>@@ -98,6 +106,7 @@ THE SOFTWARE OR THE USE OR OTHER DEALINGS IN THE SOFTWARE.';
<br>
<br> ^ (codeWidget := GtkSourceCodeWidget new)
<br> initialize;
<br>+ appendTag: #debug description: #('background' 'cyan4' 'foreground' 'NavyBlue' nil);
<br> mainWidget
<br> ]
<br>
<br>@@ -241,10 +250,6 @@ THE SOFTWARE OR THE USE OR OTHER DEALINGS IN THE SOFTWARE.';
<br> | package |
<br> package := PackageLoader packageAt: 'VisualGST'.
<br> self
<br>- "appendToolItem: ((GTK.GtkToolButton newFromStock: 'gtk-new')
<br>- connectSignal: 'clicked' to: OpenWorkspaceCommand selector: #execute userData: nil;
<br>- setTooltipText: 'Create a new workspace';
<br>- yourself);"
<br> appendToolItem: ((GTK.GtkToolButton newFromStock: 'gtk-save')
<br> connectSignal: 'clicked' to: SaveImageCommand selector: #execute userData: nil;
<br> setTooltipText: 'Save the image';
<br>@@ -410,6 +415,8 @@ THE SOFTWARE OR THE USE OR OTHER DEALINGS IN THE SOFTWARE.';
<br> selectedContext := debugger suspendedContext parentContextAt: (contextWidget numberOfContext - ((contextWidget model getPath: iter) getIndices value)).
<br> codeWidget sourceCode: selectedContext method methodSourceString.
<br> codeWidget object: selectedContext receiver.
<br>+ selectedContext currentLine printNl.
<br>+ codeWidget applyTag: #debug forLine: selectedContext currentLine.
<br> self updateInspectorWidget: selectedContext
<br> ]
<br>
<br>diff --git a/Extensions.st b/Extensions.st
<br>index e2fe45b..ffc5303 100644
<br>--- a/Extensions.st
<br>+++ b/Extensions.st
<br>@@ -271,7 +271,8 @@ Behavior extend [
<br> debuggerClass [
<br> <category: '*VisualGST'>
<br>
<br>- ^ VisualGST.GtkDebugger
<br>+ ^ nil
<br>+ "^ VisualGST.GtkDebugger"
<br> ]
<br> ]
<br>
<br>diff --git a/GtkSourceCodeWidget.st b/GtkSourceCodeWidget.st
<br>index bd742e3..06156f4 100644
<br>--- a/GtkSourceCodeWidget.st
<br>+++ b/GtkSourceCodeWidget.st
<br>@@ -340,11 +340,32 @@ GtkConcreteWidget subclass: GtkSourceCodeWidget [
<br> ]
<br>
<br> browseSenders [
<br>+ <category: 'browse'>
<br>+
<br> OpenSenderCommand on: self
<br> ]
<br>
<br> browseImplementors [
<br>+ <category: 'browse'>
<br>+
<br> OpenImplementorCommand on: self
<br> ]
<br>+
<br>+ appendTag: aSymbol description: anArray [
<br>+ <category: 'text buffer'>
<br>+
<br>+ codeBuffer
<br>+ createTag: aSymbol varargs: anArray
<br>+ ]
<br>+
<br>+ applyTag: aSymbol forLine: anInteger [
<br>+ <category: 'text buffer'>
<br>+
<br>+ | start end |
<br>+ start := codeBuffer getIterAtLine: anInteger.
<br>+ end := codeBuffer getIterAtLine: anInteger + 1.
<br>+ codeBuffer applyTagByName: aSymbol start: start end: end
<br>+ ]
<br>+
<br> ]
<br>
<br></tt><hr align="left" width="300" /><br />_______________________________________________
<br>help-smalltalk mailing list
<br><a href="http://old.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=26588715&i=0" target="_top" rel="nofollow">help-smalltalk@...</a>
<br><a href="http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/help-smalltalk" target="_top" rel="nofollow">http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/help-smalltalk</a><br><p>From forum: <a href="http://old.nabble.com/Gnu---Smalltalk-f1791.html" embed="fixTarget[1791]" target="_top" >Gnu - Smalltalk</a></p>tag:old.nabble.com,2006:post-26588706Re: [bug] error message printed to transcript, not debugger2009-12-01T01:09:48Z2009-12-01T01:09:48ZPaolo Bonzini-3Issue status update for
<br><a href="http://smalltalk.gnu.org/project/issue/433" target="_top" rel="nofollow">http://smalltalk.gnu.org/project/issue/433</a><br>Post a follow up:
<br><a href="http://smalltalk.gnu.org/project/comments/add/433" target="_top" rel="nofollow">http://smalltalk.gnu.org/project/comments/add/433</a><br><br> Project: GNU Smalltalk
<br> Version: <none>
<br> Component: VisualGST
<br> Category: bug reports
<br> Priority: critical
<br> Assigned to: MrGwen
<br> Reported by: bonzinip
<br> Updated by: bonzinip
<br>-Status: committed
<br>+Status: fixed
<br><br>thanks.
<br><br><br><br><br>_______________________________________________
<br>help-smalltalk mailing list
<br><a href="http://old.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=26588706&i=0" target="_top" rel="nofollow">help-smalltalk@...</a>
<br><a href="http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/help-smalltalk" target="_top" rel="nofollow">http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/help-smalltalk</a><br><p>From forum: <a href="http://old.nabble.com/Gnu---Smalltalk-f1791.html" embed="fixTarget[1791]" target="_top" >Gnu - Smalltalk</a></p>tag:old.nabble.com,2006:post-26588805Re: [vwnc] Platform priorities2009-12-01T01:09:43Z2009-12-01T01:09:43ZSteven KellyJames Robertson wrote 01 December 2009 04:04:
<br>> Bear in mind that way back in the day, we compiled the libraries for
<br>> Oracle and Sybase into the VM on Unix platforms. The problem with that
<br>> was that we often ended up a couple of release cycles behind those
<br>> vendors, and customers would wonder why they were stuck on a specific
<br>> DB library version.
<br>>
<br>> I fear that compiling the cairo libs into the VM would lead us to the
<br>> same place, and ultimately, back to the same shared library decision we
<br>> came to back then.
<br><br>In effect, the current Windows VM is equally locked in to the ancient Windows GDI library. Customers do indeed wonder why it hasn't been updated ;-).
<br><br>Currently we can choose between "vwnt.exe + vwntoe.dll" or a single visual.exe, which effectively includes the DLL. Maybe Cairo could work in a similar way? Those who want the latest and greatest could use vwnt.exe + vwntoe.dll + cairo.dll (supplied by Cincom, but download or compile your own if you like), but visual.exe would contain everything.
<br><br>Steve
<br><br>_______________________________________________
<br>vwnc mailing list
<br><a href="http://old.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=26588805&i=0" target="_top" rel="nofollow">vwnc@...</a>
<br><a href="http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc" target="_top" rel="nofollow">http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc</a><br><p>From forum: <a href="http://old.nabble.com/VisualWorks-f14163.html" embed="fixTarget[14163]" target="_top" >VisualWorks</a></p>tag:old.nabble.com,2006:post-26588704Re: [bug] set default window size for browsers2009-12-01T01:09:43Z2009-12-01T01:09:43ZPaolo Bonzini-3Issue status update for
<br><a href="http://smalltalk.gnu.org/project/issue/403" target="_top" rel="nofollow">http://smalltalk.gnu.org/project/issue/403</a><br>Post a follow up:
<br><a href="http://smalltalk.gnu.org/project/comments/add/403" target="_top" rel="nofollow">http://smalltalk.gnu.org/project/comments/add/403</a><br><br> Project: GNU Smalltalk
<br> Version: <none>
<br> Component: VisualGST
<br> Category: bug reports
<br> Priority: critical
<br> Assigned to: MrGwen
<br> Reported by: bonzinip
<br> Updated by: bonzinip
<br>-Status: committed
<br>+Status: fixed
<br><br>thanks.
<br><br><br><br><br>_______________________________________________
<br>help-smalltalk mailing list
<br><a href="http://old.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=26588704&i=0" target="_top" rel="nofollow">help-smalltalk@...</a>
<br><a href="http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/help-smalltalk" target="_top" rel="nofollow">http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/help-smalltalk</a><br><p>From forum: <a href="http://old.nabble.com/Gnu---Smalltalk-f1791.html" embed="fixTarget[1791]" target="_top" >Gnu - Smalltalk</a></p>tag:old.nabble.com,2006:post-26588814Re: [vwnc] Platform priorities2009-12-01T01:03:54Z2009-12-01T01:03:54ZSteven KellyTravis Griggs wrote:
<br>> What if the next few VW releases, at *most* a year apart, possibly
<br>> less, were a series of integral releases. VW 8, VW 9, VW 10, etc. They
<br>> wouldn't be backwards compatible, they may require some work to
<br>> upgrade code, but it couldn't be too bad, because the release cycle
<br>> was kept smaller (incremental) and we have the onus of having to make
<br>> the IDE and other tools work with any changes (eat our own dogfood).
<br>> But without the bw compat constraint, progress might be made quicker.
<br><br>The VM doesn't need to be backwards compatible. If the image isn't going
<br>to be backwards compatible with our code, we'd like to know about it
<br>early, so we can adjust our own development, or maybe have an influence
<br>on Cincom's decisions about backwards compatibility.
<br><br>The downside for Cincom would be when they need to back-port VM bug
<br>corrections to several versions, as part of supporting older VM
<br>versions. If you keep the VM build environments for each release, that
<br>shouldn't be a big problem.
<br><br>Steve
<br><br>_______________________________________________
<br>vwnc mailing list
<br><a href="http://old.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=26588814&i=0" target="_top" rel="nofollow">vwnc@...</a>
<br><a href="http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc" target="_top" rel="nofollow">http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc</a><br><p>From forum: <a href="http://old.nabble.com/VisualWorks-f14163.html" embed="fixTarget[14163]" target="_top" >VisualWorks</a></p>tag:old.nabble.com,2006:post-26587168Re: [vwnc] Platform priorities2009-11-30T22:08:05Z2009-11-30T22:08:05ZJoachim Geidel-2<br>Am 01.12.09 01:28 schrieb Steven Kelly:
<br>> Or would it be best to take this opportunity to rewrite the whole of the
<br>> GraphicsContext tree?
<br><br>Two years ago, I experimented with a CairoWrapper which would automagically
<br>render all its components with Cairo instead of the VM primitives. Some
<br>widgets need a couple of additional methods, and ComposedText would have to
<br>be rewritten (have a look at what happens during text layout, and you'll
<br>agree). My conclusion was that it would be feasible to switch over to Cairo
<br>without too much effort. Rewriting ComposedText and its neighborhood will be
<br>the most expensive part of this.
<br><br>The experimental code is in the public repository:
<br><br>CairoGraphics-Wrappers
<br>CairoGraphics-Wrappers-Examples
<br>CairoGraphics-Widgets
<br>CairoGraphics-Windows
<br><br>This was done with VW 7.5 and Cairo 1.4. I don't know if the code is
<br>compatible with the latest versions of VW, CairoGraphics and the Cairo
<br>library.
<br><br>The experiment went as far as switching a whole image to Cairo :-) by
<br>evaluating
<br><br> CairoGraphics.UseCairoForAllWindows := true.
<br><br>If you search the archives of vwnc for the subject "Cairofying VisualWorks"
<br>of Oct 28, 2007, you'll find my summary of the experiment and a screenshot
<br>of a Refactoring Browser drawn with Cairo.
<br><br>Cheers,
<br>Joachim Geidel
<br>
<br><br><br>_______________________________________________
<br>vwnc mailing list
<br><a href="http://old.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=26587168&i=0" target="_top" rel="nofollow">vwnc@...</a>
<br><a href="http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc" target="_top" rel="nofollow">http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc</a><br><p>From forum: <a href="http://old.nabble.com/VisualWorks-f14163.html" embed="fixTarget[14163]" target="_top" >VisualWorks</a></p>tag:old.nabble.com,2006:post-26585599Re: [vwnc] Platform priorities2009-11-30T18:15:06Z2009-11-30T18:15:06ZTravis Griggs-3On Nov 30, 2009, at 3:42 PM, Travis Griggs wrote:
<br><br>>>
<br>>> I'm delighted to see the work on Cairo and OpenGL, and hope
<br>>> functionality like that makes its way into the base graphics system
<br>>> of VW soon. IMHO having bolt-on DLLs etc. doesn't work for the cross
<br>>> platform story: downloading and maybe even compiling 3rd party DLLs
<br>>> for several different platforms is acceptable for preview code, but
<br>>> not in production - at least not for a core component of the system
<br>>> like graphics.
<br><br>And here's my other off the wall disavowed question. In the continued
<br>interest of "tuning" some of the great feedback we've been getting on
<br>this and other threads.
<br><br>Here is a list of supported platforms for VisualWorks 7.7. Or at least
<br>close, I've probably got an error or two in here:
<br><br>Windows 2000+
<br>MacOS X 10.4+
<br>MaxOS X - X11
<br>HP-UX 11.11+
<br>IBM AIX 5.2+
<br>Linux32/x86 (2.4 kernel, up to ancient versions of X11)+
<br>Linux64/x86 (2.4 kernel, up to ancient versions of X11)+
<br>Linux32/PPC (2.4 kernel, up to ancient versions of X11)+
<br>Solaris/Sparc32 8+
<br>Solaris/Sparc64 8+
<br><br><br>We provide a turnkey precompiled library for Cairo for the first two
<br>in the list. Getting that was not too hard, but it IS work. Work that
<br>will go on. As we move into these other platforms, it gets harder.
<br>Since people don't do snazzy desktop development of ANY sort of AIX,
<br>especially 5.2 (2004), then there's not a lot of support for getting
<br>Cairo compiled there. I'm sure it's doable, but it gets harder and
<br>harder as we move in to these platforms. E.g, Cairo working Solaris
<br>10, is something a number of people have demonstrated is doable, doing
<br>it on 8, is a tougher proposition.
<br><br>Given the enthusiasm to see Cairo integrated to a higher degree, how
<br>much effort does Cincom put into making it work on these other
<br>platforms? Which ones? Do we consign some of them to only headless/
<br>server environments? Do we support it on just some platforms, which
<br>means we won't use it at all in any of our core tools probably, and
<br>therefore we won't "eat our own dogfood" as well?
<br><br>--
<br>Travis Griggs
<br>Objologist
<br>For every adage, there is an equal and contrary un-adage
<br><br>_______________________________________________
<br>vwnc mailing list
<br><a href="http://old.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=26585599&i=0" target="_top" rel="nofollow">vwnc@...</a>
<br><a href="http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc" target="_top" rel="nofollow">http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc</a><br><p>From forum: <a href="http://old.nabble.com/VisualWorks-f14163.html" embed="fixTarget[14163]" target="_top" >VisualWorks</a></p>tag:old.nabble.com,2006:post-26585513Re: [vwnc] Platform priorities2009-11-30T18:03:35Z2009-11-30T18:03:35ZJames Robertson-7<html><head></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div>Bear in mind that way back in the day, we compiled the libraries for Oracle and Sybase into the VM on Unix platforms. The problem with that was that we often ended up a couple of release cycles behind those vendors, and customers would wonder why they were stuck on a specific DB library version.</div><div><br></div><div>I fear that compiling the cairo libs into the VM would lead us to the same place, and ultimately, back to the same shared library decision we came to back then.</div><div><br></div><div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#000000"><br></font><blockquote type="cite">The CairoGraphics package might get integrated directly into<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">visual.im, or even base.im, who knows. But the C library will not be<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">compiled into the VM. <br></blockquote><br>:-(. <br><br><blockquote type="cite">The drawback of this, is that you get away from the "it's just one<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">executable" model. Which we didn't have anyway because of the image.<br></blockquote><br>At least on Windows we do, with reshacker and visual.exe.<br><br><blockquote type="cite">Alan pointed out to me that MPL actually might allow us to link the<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">cairo libs with the VM. Would have to do some more research, but it<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">might be possible. Still not sure it's desirable from all pov, but<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">it's interesting.<br></blockquote><br>:-). It would certainly bear looking at!<br><br>Do you intend for the VM to continue to do drawing the old way (e.g. GDI<br>on Windows), so Cairo will remain an optional add-on - quite possibly<br>requiring different calls to use? <br><br>Or since Cairo is a superset of the VM's current graphics support, and<br>following similar logic to Eliot and Andre earlier, would it be<br>relatively easy (or at least efficient) to completely replace the<br>current graphics primitives with Cairo?<br><br>Or would it be best to take this opportunity to rewrite the whole of the<br>GraphicsContext tree? Either just with a more modern approach and Cairo<br>primitives, or to move many things up from the VM to the image?<br><br>Cheers,<br>Steve<br><br>_______________________________________________<br>vwnc mailing list<br><a href="http://old.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=26585513&i=0" target="_top" rel="nofollow">vwnc@...</a><br>http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc<br></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><br></div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 12px; "><div>James Robertson</div><div>Cincom Smalltalk Product Evangelist</div><div><a href="http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/blog/blogView" target="_top" rel="nofollow">http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/blog/blogView</a></div><div>Talk Small and Carry a Big Class Library</div><div><br class="khtml-block-placeholder"></div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"></span><blockquote type="cite"><div><br></div></blockquote></div><br></body></html><br />_______________________________________________
<br>vwnc mailing list
<br><a href="http://old.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=26585513&i=1" target="_top" rel="nofollow">vwnc@...</a>
<br><a href="http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc" target="_top" rel="nofollow">http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc</a><br><p>From forum: <a href="http://old.nabble.com/VisualWorks-f14163.html" embed="fixTarget[14163]" target="_top" >VisualWorks</a></p>tag:old.nabble.com,2006:post-26585362Re: [vwnc] Anybody seen lockups like these?2009-11-30T17:50:09Z2009-11-30T17:50:09ZValloud, Andres<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD><TITLE></TITLE>
<META content="text/html; charset=us-ascii" http-equiv=Content-Type>
<META name=GENERATOR content="MSHTML 8.00.6001.18852"></HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=#ffffff text=#000000>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial><SPAN class=143074901-01122009>I would be very interested in any information related
to VM misbehavior controlled by core / cpu affinity. With that said, I'd
suggest trying a 7.6c or later VM.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial><SPAN class=143074901-01122009></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial><SPAN class=143074901-01122009>Andres.</SPAN></FONT></DIV><BR>
<DIV dir=ltr lang=en-us class=OutlookMessageHeader align=left>
<HR tabIndex=-1>
<FONT size=2 face=Tahoma><B>From:</B> <a href="http://old.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=26585362&i=0" target="_top" rel="nofollow">vwnc-bounces@...</a>
[mailto:<a href="http://old.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=26585362&i=1" target="_top" rel="nofollow">vwnc-bounces@...</a>] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Dennis
Smith<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, November 30, 2009 4:46 PM<BR><B>To:</B> Paul
Baumann<BR><B>Cc:</B> <a href="http://old.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=26585362&i=2" target="_top" rel="nofollow">vwnc@...</a><BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [vwnc] Anybody
seen lockups like these?<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>Any chance you were running on a multi-cpu VM-ware (or Xen)
system?<BR><BR>We had a problem like this with XEN that seemed related to clocks
differing significantly<BR>from CPU to CPU and we had to use the affinity
controls to keep the VW image on one CPU.<BR><BR>Paul Baumann wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE cite=mid:3FCC5C63F3371940900A2160FD399FD3F8F8F6A9@at-bp-ixmx-02.CPEX.com type="cite">
<META name=GENERATOR content="MSHTML 8.00.6001.18828">
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial><SPAN class=473203821-30112009>vwnt.exe (VW 7.6
VM) jumped to using 100% of one CPU core and could not be
interrupted. No memory growth. I'd only clicked in a code browser window
(perhaps involving a store query). Process Explorer stack information for
vwnt.exe showed this:</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>ntkrnlpa.exe+0x6e9ab<BR>ntkrnlpa.exe!MmIsDriverVerifying+0xbb0<BR>hal.dll+0x2ef2<BR>vwntoe.dll!registerInRt+0x2fb54<BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=473203821-30112009><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Google searches
suggest a driver problem. Not sure which driver or why now, but I'm glad
my work was saved first.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV align=left><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><STRONG><FONT color=#333333 face=Arial>Paul Baumann</FONT></STRONG></SPAN><FONT color=#333333 size=2 face=Arial> <BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt"></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 9pt"></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV><BR>
<HR>
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</PRE></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><PRE class=moz-signature cols="72">--
Dennis Smith +1 416.798.7948
Cherniak Software Development Corporation Fax: +1 416.798.0948
509-2001 Sheppard Avenue East <a href="http://old.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=26585362&i=4" target="_top" rel="nofollow">dennis@...</a>
Toronto, ON M2J 4Z8 <A class=moz-txt-link-freetext href="sip:dennis@CherniakSoftware.com" target="_top" rel="nofollow">sip:dennis@...</A>
Canada <A class=moz-txt-link-freetext href="http://www.CherniakSoftware.com" target="_top" rel="nofollow">http://www.CherniakSoftware.com</A>
Entrance off Yorkland Blvd south of Sheppard Ave east of the DVP</PRE></BODY></HTML>
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<br><a href="http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc" target="_top" rel="nofollow">http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc</a><br><p>From forum: <a href="http://old.nabble.com/VisualWorks-f14163.html" embed="fixTarget[14163]" target="_top" >VisualWorks</a></p>tag:old.nabble.com,2006:post-26585016Re: [vwnc] Platform priorities2009-11-30T17:08:13Z2009-11-30T17:08:13ZRandy Coulman<br><div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Nov 30, 2009 at 4:52 PM, Travis Griggs <span dir="ltr"><<a href="http://old.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=26585016&i=0" target="_top" rel="nofollow">tgriggs@...</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
<br>
What if the next few VW releases, at *most* a year apart, possibly<br>
less, were a series of integral releases. VW 8, VW 9, VW 10, etc. They<br>
wouldn't be backwards compatible, they may require some work to<br>
upgrade code, but it couldn't be too bad, because the release cycle<br>
was kept smaller (incremental) and we have the onus of having to make<br>
the IDE and other tools work with any changes (eat our own dogfood).<br>
But without the bw compat constraint, progress might be made quicker.<br>
<br clear="all"></blockquote></div><br>We tend to keep VMs and images in sync, so this wouldn't be a problem for us. As long as the porting effort was reasonably small, we'd even be able to keep up, I think.<br>
<br>Randy<br>-- <br>Randy Coulman<br><a href="http://old.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=26585016&i=1" target="_top" rel="nofollow">rcoulman@...</a><br>
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<br><a href="http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc" target="_top" rel="nofollow">http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc</a><br><p>From forum: <a href="http://old.nabble.com/VisualWorks-f14163.html" embed="fixTarget[14163]" target="_top" >VisualWorks</a></p>tag:old.nabble.com,2006:post-26585018Re: [vwnc] Platform priorities2009-11-30T17:06:14Z2009-11-30T17:06:14ZDennis smith-4<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
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We'll take that as a cincom commitment of course :)<br>
<br>
I guess it depends on what you mean by "not backwards compatible".<br>
With more than 1000 GUI's, painted not built with code, and with some
code-built GUI bits,<br>
we were definitely concerned about the work that we foresaw with
Widgetry, but were mentally planning<br>
for it.<br>
<br>
So again, it depends (for me) on exactly how its "not bw".<br>
<br>
We will of course live with whatever comes ...<br>
<br>
Travis Griggs wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid:16F05131-5011-442D-AA1E-322F7F59FF13@cincom.com" type="cite">
<pre wrap="">On Nov 30, 2009, at 2:04 PM, Steven Kelly wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">A major change in VM graphics support would be a new major number,
so there would be no expectation of backwards compatibility. Some of
the 7.* VMs have broken backward compatibility anyway in some way.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><!---->
So, I'm curious, just as a thought experiment. I can completely
guarantee, that this is completely Travis talking in a "what if" sort
of way, with absolutely no prior discussion about this with any one
else from Cincom, so you don't have to worry about what this portends.
What if the next few VW releases, at *most* a year apart, possibly
less, were a series of integral releases. VW 8, VW 9, VW 10, etc. They
wouldn't be backwards compatible, they may require some work to
upgrade code, but it couldn't be too bad, because the release cycle
was kept smaller (incremental) and we have the onus of having to make
the IDE and other tools work with any changes (eat our own dogfood).
But without the bw compat constraint, progress might be made quicker.
Just curious.
--
Travis Griggs
Objologist
"An idea, like a ghost, must be spoken to a little before it will
explain itself." - Charles Dickens
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</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
Dennis Smith +1 416.798.7948
Cherniak Software Development Corporation Fax: +1 416.798.0948
509-2001 Sheppard Avenue East <a href="http://old.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=26585018&i=1" target="_top" rel="nofollow">dennis@...</a>
Toronto, ON M2J 4Z8 <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="sip:dennis@CherniakSoftware.com" target="_top" rel="nofollow">sip:dennis@...</a>
Canada <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.CherniakSoftware.com" target="_top" rel="nofollow">http://www.CherniakSoftware.com</a>
Entrance off Yorkland Blvd south of Sheppard Ave east of the DVP</pre>
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<br><a href="http://old.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=26585018&i=2" target="_top" rel="nofollow">vwnc@...</a>
<br><a href="http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc" target="_top" rel="nofollow">http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc</a><br><p>From forum: <a href="http://old.nabble.com/VisualWorks-f14163.html" embed="fixTarget[14163]" target="_top" >VisualWorks</a></p>tag:old.nabble.com,2006:post-26584911Re: [vwnc] Platform priorities2009-11-30T16:52:02Z2009-11-30T16:52:02ZTravis Griggs-3On Nov 30, 2009, at 2:04 PM, Steven Kelly wrote:
<br><br>> A major change in VM graphics support would be a new major number,
<br>> so there would be no expectation of backwards compatibility. Some of
<br>> the 7.* VMs have broken backward compatibility anyway in some way.
<br><br>So, I'm curious, just as a thought experiment. I can completely
<br>guarantee, that this is completely Travis talking in a "what if" sort
<br>of way, with absolutely no prior discussion about this with any one
<br>else from Cincom, so you don't have to worry about what this portends.
<br><br>What if the next few VW releases, at *most* a year apart, possibly
<br>less, were a series of integral releases. VW 8, VW 9, VW 10, etc. They
<br>wouldn't be backwards compatible, they may require some work to
<br>upgrade code, but it couldn't be too bad, because the release cycle
<br>was kept smaller (incremental) and we have the onus of having to make
<br>the IDE and other tools work with any changes (eat our own dogfood).
<br>But without the bw compat constraint, progress might be made quicker.
<br><br>Just curious.
<br><br>--
<br>Travis Griggs
<br>Objologist
<br>"An idea, like a ghost, must be spoken to a little before it will
<br>explain itself." - Charles Dickens
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<br><a href="http://old.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=26584911&i=0" target="_top" rel="nofollow">vwnc@...</a>
<br><a href="http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc" target="_top" rel="nofollow">http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc</a><br><p>From forum: <a href="http://old.nabble.com/VisualWorks-f14163.html" embed="fixTarget[14163]" target="_top" >VisualWorks</a></p>tag:old.nabble.com,2006:post-26584947Re: [vwnc] Anybody seen lockups like these?2009-11-30T16:45:53Z2009-11-30T16:45:53ZDennis smith-4<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
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Any chance you were running on a multi-cpu VM-ware (or Xen) system?<br>
<br>
We had a problem like this with XEN that seemed related to clocks
differing significantly<br>
from CPU to CPU and we had to use the affinity controls to keep the VW
image on one CPU.<br>
<br>
Paul Baumann wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid:3FCC5C63F3371940900A2160FD399FD3F8F8F6A9@at-bp-ixmx-02.CPEX.com" type="cite">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; ">
<meta name="GENERATOR" content="MSHTML 8.00.6001.18828">
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"><span class="473203821-30112009">vwnt.exe
(VW 7.6 VM) jumped to using 100% of one CPU core and could not be
interrupted. No memory growth. I'd only clicked in a code browser
window (perhaps involving a store query). Process Explorer stack
information for vwnt.exe showed this:</span></font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">ntkrnlpa.exe+0x6e9ab<br>
ntkrnlpa.exe!MmIsDriverVerifying+0xbb0<br>
hal.dll+0x2ef2<br>
vwntoe.dll!registerInRt+0x2fb54<br>
</font></div>
<div><span class="473203821-30112009"><font face="Arial" size="2">Google
searches suggest a driver problem. Not sure which driver or why now,
but I'm glad my work was saved first.</font></span></div>
<div> </div>
<div align="left"><span style="font-size: 10pt;"><strong><font color="#333333" face="Arial">Paul Baumann</font></strong></span><font color="#333333" face="Arial" size="2"> <br>
</font></div>
<div><span style="font-size: 9pt;"></span> </div>
<div><span style="font-size: 9pt;"></span> </div>
<div> </div>
<br>
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<font color="Gray" face="Arial" size="1">This message may contain
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</pre>
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<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
Dennis Smith +1 416.798.7948
Cherniak Software Development Corporation Fax: +1 416.798.0948
509-2001 Sheppard Avenue East <a href="http://old.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=26584947&i=1" target="_top" rel="nofollow">dennis@...</a>
Toronto, ON M2J 4Z8 <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="sip:dennis@CherniakSoftware.com" target="_top" rel="nofollow">sip:dennis@...</a>
Canada <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.CherniakSoftware.com" target="_top" rel="nofollow">http://www.CherniakSoftware.com</a>
Entrance off Yorkland Blvd south of Sheppard Ave east of the DVP</pre>
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<br><a href="http://old.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=26584947&i=2" target="_top" rel="nofollow">vwnc@...</a>
<br><a href="http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc" target="_top" rel="nofollow">http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc</a><br><p>From forum: <a href="http://old.nabble.com/VisualWorks-f14163.html" embed="fixTarget[14163]" target="_top" >VisualWorks</a></p>tag:old.nabble.com,2006:post-26584805Re: [vwnc] Platform priorities2009-11-30T16:32:45Z2009-11-30T16:32:45ZTerry Raymond<div class='shrinkable-quote'><br>> -----Original Message-----
<br>> From: <a href="http://old.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=26584805&i=0" target="_top" rel="nofollow">vwnc-bounces@...</a> [mailto:<a href="http://old.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=26584805&i=1" target="_top" rel="nofollow">vwnc-bounces@...</a>] On Behalf Of Travis Griggs
<br>> Sent: Monday, November 30, 2009 6:42 PM
<br>> To: VWNC List
<br>> Subject: Re: [vwnc] Platform priorities
<br>>
<br>>
<br>> On Nov 30, 2009, at 2:04 PM, Steven Kelly wrote:
<br>>
<br>> > I'm delighted to see the work on Cairo and OpenGL, and hope
<br>> > functionality like that makes its way into the base graphics system
<br>> > of VW soon. IMHO having bolt-on DLLs etc. doesn't work for the cross
<br>> > platform story: downloading and maybe even compiling 3rd party DLLs
<br>> > for several different platforms is acceptable for preview code, but
<br>> > not in production - at least not for a core component of the system
<br>> > like graphics.
<br>>
<br>> I'm not entirely sure I'm understanding correctly Steven, apologies if
<br>> I'm responding to a misinterpretation of your text.
<br>>
<br>> From a low level point of view, what you see in preview, is the basic
<br>> approach we *will* stick to with Cairo. We provide a precompiled DLL.
<br>> You don't have to download it, you don't have to compile it. It's
<br>> placed right next to your VM, so you don't even have to move it, other
<br>> than if you move the VM, you have to move the dll along with it.
<br>>
<br>> The CairoGraphics package might get integrated directly into
<br>> visual.im, or even base.im, who knows. But the C library will not be
<br>> compiled into the VM. Cairo is licensed under both LGPL and MPL. These
<br>> allow us to do what ever we want with them, make money, change, etc.
<br>> We have to make any changes we apply to the compile publicly available
<br>> (which we haven't, but we have contributed our end-to-end build
<br>> instructions back to said community). *IF* we were to link to the VM,
<br>> we would have to make that publicly available as well.
<br>>
<br>> The drawback of this, is that you get away from the "it's just one
<br>> executable" model. Which we didn't have anyway because of the image.
</div><br>Except for those of us who compress the image and put it into the exe.
<br><div class='shrinkable-quote'><br>> --
<br>> Travis Griggs
<br>> Objologist
<br>> "It had better be a pretty good meeting, to be better than no meeting
<br>> at all" - Boyd K Packer
<br>>
<br>>
<br>> _______________________________________________
<br>> vwnc mailing list
<br>> <a href="http://old.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=26584805&i=2" target="_top" rel="nofollow">vwnc@...</a>
<br>> <a href="http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc" target="_top" rel="nofollow">http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc</a></div><br>Terry
<br>
<br>===========================================================
<br>Terry Raymond
<br>Crafted Smalltalk
<br>80 Lazywood Ln.
<br>Tiverton, RI 02878
<br>(401) 624-4517 <a href="http://old.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=26584805&i=3" target="_top" rel="nofollow">traymond@...</a>
<br><<a href="http://www.craftedsmalltalk.com" target="_top" rel="nofollow">http://www.craftedsmalltalk.com</a>>
<br>===========================================================
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<br><a href="http://old.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=26584805&i=4" target="_top" rel="nofollow">vwnc@...</a>
<br><a href="http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc" target="_top" rel="nofollow">http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc</a><br><p>From forum: <a href="http://old.nabble.com/VisualWorks-f14163.html" embed="fixTarget[14163]" target="_top" >VisualWorks</a></p>tag:old.nabble.com,2006:post-26584757Re: [vwnc] Platform priorities2009-11-30T16:28:14Z2009-11-30T16:28:14ZSteven KellyTravis Griggs wrote 01 December 2009 01:42:
<div class='shrinkable-quote'><br>> On Nov 30, 2009, at 2:04 PM, Steven Kelly wrote:
<br>>
<br>> > I'm delighted to see the work on Cairo and OpenGL, and hope
<br>> > functionality like that makes its way into the base graphics system
<br>> > of VW soon. IMHO having bolt-on DLLs etc. doesn't work for the cross
<br>> > platform story: downloading and maybe even compiling 3rd party DLLs
<br>> > for several different platforms is acceptable for preview code, but
<br>> > not in production - at least not for a core component of the system
<br>> > like graphics.
<br>>
<br>> From a low level point of view, what you see in preview, is the basic
<br>> approach we *will* stick to with Cairo. We provide a precompiled DLL.
<br>> You don't have to download it, you don't have to compile it.
</div><br>That's certainly better than having to find and download Cairo libs for
<br>all the platforms, and make sure they all work the same. Having updates
<br>to Cairo libs coming via a similar process to updates to VMs would seem
<br>about right for most cases.
<br><br>> The CairoGraphics package might get integrated directly into
<br>> visual.im, or even base.im, who knows. But the C library will not be
<br>> compiled into the VM.
<br><br>:-(.
<br><br>> The drawback of this, is that you get away from the "it's just one
<br>> executable" model. Which we didn't have anyway because of the image.
<br><br>At least on Windows we do, with reshacker and visual.exe.
<br><br>> Alan pointed out to me that MPL actually might allow us to link the
<br>> cairo libs with the VM. Would have to do some more research, but it
<br>> might be possible. Still not sure it's desirable from all pov, but
<br>> it's interesting.
<br><br>:-). It would certainly bear looking at!
<br><br>Do you intend for the VM to continue to do drawing the old way (e.g. GDI
<br>on Windows), so Cairo will remain an optional add-on - quite possibly
<br>requiring different calls to use?
<br><br>Or since Cairo is a superset of the VM's current graphics support, and
<br>following similar logic to Eliot and Andre earlier, would it be
<br>relatively easy (or at least efficient) to completely replace the
<br>current graphics primitives with Cairo?
<br><br>Or would it be best to take this opportunity to rewrite the whole of the
<br>GraphicsContext tree? Either just with a more modern approach and Cairo
<br>primitives, or to move many things up from the VM to the image?
<br><br>Cheers,
<br>Steve
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<br><a href="http://old.nabble.com/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=post&post=26584757&i=0" target="_top" rel="nofollow">vwnc@...</a>
<br><a href="http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc" target="_top" rel="nofollow">http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc</a><br><p>From forum: <a href="http://old.nabble.com/VisualWorks-f14163.html" embed="fixTarget[14163]" target="_top" >VisualWorks</a></p>tag:old.nabble.com,2006:post-26584284Re: [vwnc] Platform priorities2009-11-30T15:51:34Z2009-11-30T15:51:34ZTravis Griggs-3<br>On Nov 30, 2009, at 3:42 PM, Travis Griggs wrote:
<br><div class='shrinkable-quote'><br>>
<br>> On Nov 30, 2009, at 2:04 PM, Steven Kelly wrote:
<br>>
<br>>> I'm delighted to see the work on Cairo and OpenGL, and hope
<br>>> functionality like that makes its way into the base graphics system
<br>>> of VW soon. IMHO having bolt-on DLLs etc. doesn't work for the cross
<br>>> platform story: downloading and maybe even compiling 3rd party DLLs
<br>>> for several different platforms is acceptable for preview code, but
<br>>> not in production - at least not for a core component of the system
<br>>> like graphics.
<br>>
<br>> I'm not entirely sure I'm understanding correctly Steven, apologies if
<br>> I'm responding to a misinterpretation of your text.
<br>>
<br>> From a low level point of view, what you see in preview, is the basic
<br>> approach we *will* stick to with Cairo. We provide a precompiled DLL.
<br>> You don't have to download it, you don't have to compile it. It's
<br>> placed right next to your VM, so you don't even have to move it, other
<br>> than if you move the VM, you have to move the dll along with it.
<br>>
<br>> The CairoGraphics package might get integrated directly into
<br>> visual.im, or even base.im, who knows. But the C library will not be
<br>> compiled into the VM. Cairo is licensed under both LGPL and MPL. These
<br>> allow us to do what ever we want with them, make money, change, etc.
<br>> We have to make any changes we apply to the compile publicly available
<br>> (which we haven't, but we have contributed our end-to-end build
<br>> instructions back to said community). *IF* we were to link to the VM,
<br>> we would have to make that publicly available as well.
<br>>
<br>> The drawback of this, is that you get away from the "it's just one
<br>> executable" model. Which we didn't have anyway because of the image.
</div><br><br>Alan pointed out to me that MPL actually might allow us to link the
<br>cairo libs with the VM. Would have to do some more research, but it
<br>might be possible. Still not sure it's desirable from all pov, but
<br>it's interesting.
<br><br>--
<br>Travis Griggs
<br>Objologist
<br>Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright
<br>until you hear them speak...
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