Some thoughts

[Shari-9]

Hi my name is Shari, and I've been a member of this group for a long while (actually forgot). I joined drupal.org over 2 years ago. I've started and stopped working with Drupal over and over. I am however recommitting myself to actually sticking with it. I plan to do this by investing my time & money, and that means also giving back to the community. However it's been my experience in the past, and again that although it's everywhere that Drupal wants people to join in, and to make Drupal user friendly, this isn't my experience.

I joined the documentation originally because this is the 1st thing anyone new sees, if it doesn't make someone feel included & that it is understandable, they're gone.

Out of the CMS's that are out there that I've tried and looked into I chose Drupal originally for 2 reasons.
1. It can grow as my experience grows.
2. People actually answered my questions in the forum.

I've walked away from Drupal for 2 main reasons.
1. Documentation is way over my head.
2. Outside of the forum, it feels unfriendly.

I got started today by looking for something I could do, and went with the Documentation Issues for D7. Review and update the Installation guide. So started at the installation instructions and downloading D7. Right off the bat, I noticed it saying "This documentation focuses on performing tasks at the command line." Maybe I missed something but, that right there is not user friendly. I've installed Drupal any number of times, and I still don't know what the command line is. Most people who know nothing about Drupal and want to install it, are going to start with the Installation Guide, and right off it's made Drupal feel like if your not a programmer or someone who is familiar with the "back end" of a system you should turn around.

So I wondered where should I discuss this, I jumped into the IRC channel posted just that question "Where is the best place to discuss documentation?" There were 25 people sitting in the channel, I waited over 25 minutes and never received a response. Why are you in the channel if your not going to chat?

Unfriendly feeling... again.

If Drupal truly intends to appeal to people outside the "geek" community, this is the 1st thing that needs to be addressed.

What can I, what is the 1st step, I can take towards making that happen? Do I post a comment to the issue about my thoughts on it. Do I go into the IRC channel, do I post to this mailing list. Where does the discussion begin, and happen?

I'm willing to do something, I just need a bit of help getting there.

Shari
WebWeaver64 @ Drupal.org

--
Pending work: http://drupal.org/project/issues/documentation/
List archives: http://lists.drupal.org/pipermail/documentation/

[Jennifer Hodgdon]

Hi Shari,

Welcome back to the Documentation list! This is a good place to
discuss the issues of friendliness you are bringing up.

Regarding IRC, many people leave themselves connected to IRC even
though they're not really following it; I don't really know why,
unless they are just trying to make a log (maybe there's a better
way). So I'm sorry you had that experience! Hopefully you will find
this email list to be more welcoming than IRC was.

We are also having some "sprints" in the next few weeks, which are
times you can guarantee that some other people will actually be on
IRC: See http://drupal.org/node/540308 The documentation people do
tend to be fairly friendly when we're actually on IRC.

Regarding your specific concern with the Installation guide, I totally
agree with what you said -- Drupal can definitely be installed without
access to the command line. The best forum for discussing specific
concerns about specific pieces of documentation is not this list,
however, but the Documentation Issue Queue. Specifically, the issue
about the installation guide for Drupal 7 is:
     http://drupal.org/node/538054
Please put your concerns in a comment there.

Regards,
     Jennifer

--
Jennifer Hodgdon * Poplar ProductivityWare
www.poplarware.com
Drupal, WordPress, and custom Web programming

--
Pending work: http://drupal.org/project/issues/documentation/
List archives: http://lists.drupal.org/pipermail/documentation/

[adept digital evolution]

On 08-07-2009 3:57 PM, Shari wrote:
> Hi my name is Shari, and I've been a member of this group for a long
> while (actually forgot). I joined drupal.org over 2 years ago. I've
> started and stopped working with Drupal over and over. I am however
> recommitting myself to actually sticking with it. I plan to do this by
> investing my time & money, and that means also giving back to the
> community. However it's been my experience in the past, and again that
> although it's everywhere that Drupal wants people to join in, and to
> make Drupal user friendly, this isn't my experience.

Shari, I'm coming from exactly the same experience. While I do have a
strong technical background, stronger than perhaps 98% of the general
public, I am not a programmer. But someone with my level of exposure
(slightly more teckie than yours) should not have a hard time with a
simple installation and in the past I have.

So I am also committing to working on the D7 installation guide.
> I got started today by looking for something I could do, and went with
> the Documentation Issues for D7. Review and update the Installation
> guide. So started at the installation instructions and downloading D7.
> Right off the bat, I noticed it saying "This documentation focuses on
> performing tasks at the command line."

I use an ftp client program that I believe can handle everything one
needs to do for an installation, without asking Windows users to use the
command line (Command prompt on Windows, Terminal on Mac and Linux) ...  
without having to learn to "ssh" to a remote server (most of us use web
hosts in another city or even country, right, as opposed to sitting
right in a room with their web servers?) etc.

> Maybe I missed something but, that right there is not user friendly.

I agree. With all appreciation and all due respect to Tom Geller who
took the first swipe through creating the D7 guide, I would like to see
the docs discuss  using ssh (for the more technical audience) or a
friendly ftp client (for folks like you and me) to install on a computer
one does not sit in front of.

Please tell me if this is not the case with you, or if you simply do not
agree, but I would think that among those who like us are not
programmers, we are not trying to serve a Drupal site from our home
computer. We need to understand how to upload and install Drupal on a
computer "somewhere else on the internet". True? Or is this a
misconception of mine colored by my own situation (although I must say
that of the hundred or so colleagues I have in my - technical - field,
very few of them maintain their own web servers in their office)

> I've installed Drupal any number of times, and I still don't know what
> the command line is. Most people who know nothing about Drupal and
> want to install it, are going to start with the Installation Guide,
> and right off it's made Drupal feel like if your not a programmer or
> someone who is familiar with the "back end" of a system you should
> turn around.

i agree that docs in the past tend to make one turn tail and run. So
perhaps you and I can provide the perspective that's needed to be "user
testers" and to help revise the docs to be completely understandable and
usable by folks like us (who are, I had thought anyhow, the target
"market" for Drupal ... "no need to know web programming" etc)
>
> So I wondered where should I discuss this, I jumped into the IRC
> channel posted just that question "Where is the best place to discuss
> documentation?" There were 25 people sitting in the channel, I waited
> over 25 minutes and never received a response. Why are you in the
> channel if your not going to chat?
>
> Unfriendly feeling... again.

i have found this list to be very supportive of newbie doc contributors
like us. At least here you've found me, who doesn't know PHP from MSG, lol.

>
> If Drupal truly intends to appeal to people outside the "geek"
> community, this is the 1st thing that needs to be addressed.

hear, hear! I think the folks here know this. It seems to be on the
scale of a passionate misson on this list and under Addi's leadership.
(If you don't know who she is you will soon.)

I know, because I have felt it myself, that it can seem like trying to
break into a clique when jumping into an OS project. (For example, "who
is Addi?")  I don't for a second believe that is the intention of the
people here, but it can just _feel_ that way because other folks already
know each other, are familiar with efforts that are underway, already
understand the do's and don'ts of modifying site content, and all of
that. But we'll catch up, and so far my experience is that those who
have been on this project a while are patient and friendly.

>
> What can I, what is the 1st step, I can take towards making that
> happen? Do I post a comment to the issue about my thoughts on it. Do I
> go into the IRC channel, do I post to this mailing list. Where does
> the discussion begin, and happen?
>

Addi (the lead for this D7 docs project) has told me, when i asked the
same kind of question, that most folks actually open an Issue for
discussions like this. It's another twist in the more-than-odd Drupal
semantics. In my entire 25-year-long career in computer applications, an
"Issue" has always been a big, and, in some systems, might be a feature
request. But not a simple topic for discussion.

But since you asked here I'm answering here and I'm sure nobody will
spank us! (right?)

I have a proposition for you, Shari. This weekend I will be setting up a
test site to install D7 and will be making mods or, more likely for now,
comments against the text that Tom (Geller) started. My intent is to
provide alternative or supplemental text where the instructions are
confusing, or where they might be made easier by explaining how to
accomplish an installation using more user-friendly tools. When I am
done I will contact you and ask you to try installing again with my new
notes and mods added to the instructions.

I am planning to get my site set up tonight and to run through the docs
by tomorrow night or very early Sunday.

Are you game?

ilyse
(kazar @ drupal.org)
--
Pending work: http://drupal.org/project/issues/documentation/
List archives: http://lists.drupal.org/pipermail/documentation/

[Shai Gluskin-2]

Shari and to Ilyse also.

Jennifer and Ilyse addressed a lot of what you said and I agree with them.

I'm really glad you posted. Sherri, I really appreciate your returning to Drupal and your willingness to "hang in there."

Just to clear up a couple things. The command line is not for people who have web servers at home. I don't know any developers with web servers at home. Some Drupal developers do like working on local installs of sites (on their own computer) while in development. But those sites are not accessible to the web.). For most web hosting accounts, even the super cheap ones, you can get command line access to your remote server by logging into it from your own computer via "SSH" (see below).

I agree with you about the instructions that there should be a version that is completely without command line.

However, I want to empower you to consider working at the command line... even if you don't consider yourself a geek.

I'm about to tell you what the command line is and how to get there...

But I first want to say that I'm a rabbi by training and I just starting coding a couple of years ago (I'm 51 years old). I still mostly build my Drupal sites by turning on modules, clicking settings etc all through the browser. However, for some stuff like installing and updating sites... I have found working at the command line absolutely liberating. (Just one example... when you install Drupal at your web hosting company while being logged in to the command line at your remote host... you are moving files from the drupal.org server to your web host's server. The files never go through your home Internet connection or touch your computer. It takes about 15 seconds to install Drupal core this way, and it is extremely reliable. After that... FTP looks pretty pathetic. And it really isn't hard to do, see below.)

My willingness to get a little bit geeky, in small increments, and with a lot of help... have been very rewarding.

On a Mac you get to the "command-line" simply by opening up the application "Terminal." Terminal is found in the Utilities folder inside the "Applications" folder. By simply opening the Terminal application... you are at the command line.

If you are on a PC, I think the best way to start is by downloading a free program called PuTTY. I know for sure that is what you use for the SSH part, getting access to your remote server. Here is where you get PuTTY: http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/putty/

When you make a choice in a graphical user interface, you are sending a command. With the "command line" you simply send those commands directly. There are certain advantages for doing certain things that way.

The main command you need to know is the one you use to navigate around your computer or a remote computer like your web server: cd nameoffolder
Replace "nameoffolder" with the name of the folder you want to move into.
"cd"  stands for change directory.. To go "up" a level (go outside the 'folder' you are currently in), you type: cd ../
or to go up two levels: cd ../../
Also helpful is: ls
which lists all the files in your current directory.

I'll try to send later a good web site that has a very simplified command line cheat sheet.

You typically get access to your web server via the following: ssh webacccountusername@... and then you are prompted for the password.
Replace webaccountusername with your hosting account user name and example.com with your domain name. You need to have SSH enabled on your web hosting account if it isn't already. Submit a help ticket to your web host

You paste the following command to download Drupal, to either your own computer or to your remote host:

cvs -z6 -d:pserver:anonymous:anonymous@...:/cvs/drupal co -r DRUPAL-6-13 drupal

That entire drupal installation will be inside a folder called, "drupal." You need to get the entire contents of that directory into the public root level of your web site. I often do that with FTP cause the GUI on my FTP software makes that easy. So FTP software is good for some things.

NOTE (this applies to FTP installations as well): Avoid problems by not installing Drupal into a sub-directory on your server. Or if you do, hopefully you'll know how to create a sub-domain on your server so that Drupal thinks you are at the domain root even if you aren't.

Notice  the "6-13" part in the command above. Later, when 6.14 comes out, and you want to install that for a new web site, you replace the "6.13" with "6.14"

To update your current site when 6.14 comes you navigate to inside the main drupal directory on your server and paste:

cvs update -r DRUPAL-6-14 -dP

and voila, your site is updated (in about 3 seconds). Always go to example.com/update.php logged in as user/1 (the person who created the site initially) after you update the Drupal core or modules files. (Replace example.com with your domain name).

I didn't put this all here to dismiss AT ALL your seeing the need to have instructions that are 100% FTP oriented. I just wanted to hopefully encourage you to try the command line (as someone who came to the command line very late in life) and I want to debunk the idea that it is only for geeks.

Have a great weekend...

Shai

On Fri, Aug 7, 2009 at 3:57 PM, Shari <webweaver64@...> wrote:

Hi my name is Shari, and I've been a member of this group for a long while (actually forgot). I joined drupal.org over 2 years ago. I've started and stopped working with Drupal over and over. I am however recommitting myself to actually sticking with it. I plan to do this by investing my time & money, and that means also giving back to the community. However it's been my experience in the past, and again that although it's everywhere that Drupal wants people to join in, and to make Drupal user friendly, this isn't my experience.

I joined the documentation originally because this is the 1st thing anyone new sees, if it doesn't make someone feel included & that it is understandable, they're gone.

Out of the CMS's that are out there that I've tried and looked into I chose Drupal originally for 2 reasons.
1. It can grow as my experience grows.
2. People actually answered my questions in the forum.

I've walked away from Drupal for 2 main reasons.
1. Documentation is way over my head.
2. Outside of the forum, it feels unfriendly.

I got started today by looking for something I could do, and went with the Documentation Issues for D7. Review and update the Installation guide. So started at the installation instructions and downloading D7. Right off the bat, I noticed it saying "This documentation focuses on performing tasks at the command line." Maybe I missed something but, that right there is not user friendly. I've installed Drupal any number of times, and I still don't know what the command line is. Most people who know nothing about Drupal and want to install it, are going to start with the Installation Guide, and right off it's made Drupal feel like if your not a programmer or someone who is familiar with the "back end" of a system you should turn around.

So I wondered where should I discuss this, I jumped into the IRC channel posted just that question "Where is the best place to discuss documentation?" There were 25 people sitting in the channel, I waited over 25 minutes and never received a response. Why are you in the channel if your not going to chat?

Unfriendly feeling... again.

If Drupal truly intends to appeal to people outside the "geek" community, this is the 1st thing that needs to be addressed.

What can I, what is the 1st step, I can take towards making that happen? Do I post a comment to the issue about my thoughts on it. Do I go into the IRC channel, do I post to this mailing list. Where does the discussion begin, and happen?

I'm willing to do something, I just need a bit of help getting there.

Shari
WebWeaver64 @ Drupal.org

--
Pending work: http://drupal.org/project/issues/documentation/
List archives: http://lists.drupal.org/pipermail/documentation/

--
Pending work: http://drupal.org/project/issues/documentation/
List archives: http://lists.drupal.org/pipermail/documentation/

[Lynette-6]

Hi Shari!

> Regarding IRC, many people leave themselves connected to IRC even though
> they're not really following it; I don't really know why, unless they
> are just trying to make a log (maybe there's a better way).


Honestly, I've been using various chat-type clients for so long that
it's ingrained in me to just leave it connected - I don't turn off my
computer, why should I turn off my chat clients (especially when I hang
out in 5 or 6 channels and reconnecting all those? bleh)? I'm used to
people being able to reach me in whatever fashion and leave me messages
- I know a number of people who are the same way.

There's also a lot of people who don't actively participate for various
reasons (I showed up about 10 minutes after you left this morning after
getting home from my kid's class) and there's plenty of times that
people are on but just not paying attention. Don't take it personal :)
There's often 300 people in -support and sometimes you still can't get
an answer. ;)

I hope you find something you really can excel at in the docs.
Installation and new user documentation is some of the most important
stuff we have.

And Shai - you totally should put that tutorial up in the newbie guide. ;)



--
Pending work: http://drupal.org/project/issues/documentation/
List archives: http://lists.drupal.org/pipermail/documentation/

[Shari-9]

{snipped for brevity}
Jennifer Hodgdon wrote the following, On 8/7/2009 4:06 PM:

Regarding IRC, many people leave themselves connected to IRC even though they're not really following it;

Don't know who sets up the auto responder, but maybe include.. you might see lots of people listed who are not really here. If you don't get a response try again or visit the _____

We are also having some "sprints" in the next few weeks,

I'm going to do my best to participate.

Please put your concerns in a comment there.

Will do

Jennifer, thank you for your response. It was everything I needed 8-)
Shari

--
Pending work: http://drupal.org/project/issues/documentation/
List archives: http://lists.drupal.org/pipermail/documentation/

[Shai Gluskin-2]

Sheri and Elyse,

I'd offer to be in IRC or available by email as you install your site... but I turn off my computer for 25 hours starting in about 45 minutes to observe the Jewish sabbath. This is a great respite from all my screen time. But if it were another time, I would be available.

In the instructions I wrote, I mentioned that long cvs command to download a fresh Drupal install. I mentioned you use that command to download to your computer or the web hosts computer. Presumably you want to do that at your web host's computer... and you need to be logged into that computer via SSH in order to do that.

Good luck with your install,

best,

Shai

On Fri, Aug 7, 2009 at 5:53 PM, Shai Gluskin <shai@...> wrote:

Shari and to Ilyse also.

Jennifer and Ilyse addressed a lot of what you said and I agree with them.

I'm really glad you posted. Sherri, I really appreciate your returning to Drupal and your willingness to "hang in there."

Just to clear up a couple things. The command line is not for people who have web servers at home. I don't know any developers with web servers at home. Some Drupal developers do like working on local installs of sites (on their own computer) while in development. But those sites are not accessible to the web.). For most web hosting accounts, even the super cheap ones, you can get command line access to your remote server by logging into it from your own computer via "SSH" (see below).

I agree with you about the instructions that there should be a version that is completely without command line.

However, I want to empower you to consider working at the command line... even if you don't consider yourself a geek.

I'm about to tell you what the command line is and how to get there...

But I first want to say that I'm a rabbi by training and I just starting coding a couple of years ago (I'm 51 years old). I still mostly build my Drupal sites by turning on modules, clicking settings etc all through the browser. However, for some stuff like installing and updating sites... I have found working at the command line absolutely liberating. (Just one example... when you install Drupal at your web hosting company while being logged in to the command line at your remote host... you are moving files from the drupal.org server to your web host's server. The files never go through your home Internet connection or touch your computer. It takes about 15 seconds to install Drupal core this way, and it is extremely reliable. After that... FTP looks pretty pathetic. And it really isn't hard to do, see below.)

My willingness to get a little bit geeky, in small increments, and with a lot of help... have been very rewarding.

On a Mac you get to the "command-line" simply by opening up the application "Terminal." Terminal is found in the Utilities folder inside the "Applications" folder. By simply opening the Terminal application... you are at the command line.

If you are on a PC, I think the best way to start is by downloading a free program called PuTTY. I know for sure that is what you use for the SSH part, getting access to your remote server. Here is where you get PuTTY: http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/putty/

When you make a choice in a graphical user interface, you are sending a command. With the "command line" you simply send those commands directly. There are certain advantages for doing certain things that way.

The main command you need to know is the one you use to navigate around your computer or a remote computer like your web server: cd nameoffolder
Replace "nameoffolder" with the name of the folder you want to move into.
"cd"  stands for change directory.. To go "up" a level (go outside the 'folder' you are currently in), you type: cd ../
or to go up two levels: cd ../../
Also helpful is: ls
which lists all the files in your current directory.

I'll try to send later a good web site that has a very simplified command line cheat sheet.

You typically get access to your web server via the following: ssh webacccountusername@... and then you are prompted for the password.
Replace webaccountusername with your hosting account user name and example.com with your domain name. You need to have SSH enabled on your web hosting account if it isn't already. Submit a help ticket to your web host

You paste the following command to download Drupal, to either your own computer or to your remote host:

cvs -z6 -d:pserver:anonymous:anonymous@...:/cvs/drupal co -r DRUPAL-6-13 drupal

That entire drupal installation will be inside a folder called, "drupal." You need to get the entire contents of that directory into the public root level of your web site. I often do that with FTP cause the GUI on my FTP software makes that easy. So FTP software is good for some things.

NOTE (this applies to FTP installations as well): Avoid problems by not installing Drupal into a sub-directory on your server. Or if you do, hopefully you'll know how to create a sub-domain on your server so that Drupal thinks you are at the domain root even if you aren't.

Notice  the "6-13" part in the command above. Later, when 6.14 comes out, and you want to install that for a new web site, you replace the "6.13" with "6.14"

To update your current site when 6.14 comes you navigate to inside the main drupal directory on your server and paste:

cvs update -r DRUPAL-6-14 -dP

and voila, your site is updated (in about 3 seconds). Always go to example.com/update.php logged in as user/1 (the person who created the site initially) after you update the Drupal core or modules files. (Replace example.com with your domain name).

I didn't put this all here to dismiss AT ALL your seeing the need to have instructions that are 100% FTP oriented. I just wanted to hopefully encourage you to try the command line (as someone who came to the command line very late in life) and I want to debunk the idea that it is only for geeks.

Have a great weekend...

Shai

On Fri, Aug 7, 2009 at 3:57 PM, Shari <webweaver64@...> wrote:

Hi my name is Shari, and I've been a member of this group for a long while (actually forgot). I joined drupal.org over 2 years ago. I've started and stopped working with Drupal over and over. I am however recommitting myself to actually sticking with it. I plan to do this by investing my time & money, and that means also giving back to the community. However it's been my experience in the past, and again that although it's everywhere that Drupal wants people to join in, and to make Drupal user friendly, this isn't my experience.

I joined the documentation originally because this is the 1st thing anyone new sees, if it doesn't make someone feel included & that it is understandable, they're gone.

Out of the CMS's that are out there that I've tried and looked into I chose Drupal originally for 2 reasons.
1. It can grow as my experience grows.
2. People actually answered my questions in the forum.

I've walked away from Drupal for 2 main reasons.
1. Documentation is way over my head.
2. Outside of the forum, it feels unfriendly.

I got started today by looking for something I could do, and went with the Documentation Issues for D7. Review and update the Installation guide. So started at the installation instructions and downloading D7. Right off the bat, I noticed it saying "This documentation focuses on performing tasks at the command line." Maybe I missed something but, that right there is not user friendly. I've installed Drupal any number of times, and I still don't know what the command line is. Most people who know nothing about Drupal and want to install it, are going to start with the Installation Guide, and right off it's made Drupal feel like if your not a programmer or someone who is familiar with the "back end" of a system you should turn around.

So I wondered where should I discuss this, I jumped into the IRC channel posted just that question "Where is the best place to discuss documentation?" There were 25 people sitting in the channel, I waited over 25 minutes and never received a response. Why are you in the channel if your not going to chat?

Unfriendly feeling... again.

If Drupal truly intends to appeal to people outside the "geek" community, this is the 1st thing that needs to be addressed.

What can I, what is the 1st step, I can take towards making that happen? Do I post a comment to the issue about my thoughts on it. Do I go into the IRC channel, do I post to this mailing list. Where does the discussion begin, and happen?

I'm willing to do something, I just need a bit of help getting there.

Shari
WebWeaver64 @ Drupal.org

--
Pending work: http://drupal.org/project/issues/documentation/
List archives: http://lists.drupal.org/pipermail/documentation/

--
Pending work: http://drupal.org/project/issues/documentation/
List archives: http://lists.drupal.org/pipermail/documentation/

[Steve Dondley-5]

And let me play devil's advocate here.

You may find some people who are willing to hold your hand for some
length of time for free, but they will be few and far between. You
should have no expectations of that and count your blessings when you
do.

To really succeed, you need to be self-motivated and develop a love
for the pleasure you feel when you stop banging your head walls for
several hours. The 25 min. you spent waiting for an answer form others
could have been hunting around on drupal.org finding an answer and
googling what the command line was.

So what I'm saying is, you need to get over the "unfriendly" feeling
you have when someone doesn't immediately respond to your question.
You are owed nothing.

My advice is to just put your head down, work hard, bang your head on
the wall, take pleasure when you figure something out, find something
else to do if you get stuck, contribute when you get a chance, and
count your blessing when you find someone who takes the time to give
you advice. But the bottom line is, free advice and a helping hand
will take you maybe 20% of the way there. The rest has to come from
within.

On Fri, Aug 7, 2009 at 5:10 PM, adept digital evolution<techlists@...> wrote:

> On 08-07-2009 3:57 PM, Shari wrote:
>>
>> Hi my name is Shari, and I've been a member of this group for a long while
>> (actually forgot). I joined drupal.org over 2 years ago. I've started and
>> stopped working with Drupal over and over. I am however recommitting myself
>> to actually sticking with it. I plan to do this by investing my time &
>> money, and that means also giving back to the community. However it's been
>> my experience in the past, and again that although it's everywhere that
>> Drupal wants people to join in, and to make Drupal user friendly, this isn't
>> my experience.
>
> Shari, I'm coming from exactly the same experience. While I do have a strong
> technical background, stronger than perhaps 98% of the general public, I am
> not a programmer. But someone with my level of exposure (slightly more
> teckie than yours) should not have a hard time with a simple installation
> and in the past I have.
>
> So I am also committing to working on the D7 installation guide.
>>
>> I got started today by looking for something I could do, and went with the
>> Documentation Issues for D7. Review and update the Installation guide. So
>> started at the installation instructions and downloading D7. Right off the
>> bat, I noticed it saying "This documentation focuses on performing tasks at
>> the command line."
>
> I use an ftp client program that I believe can handle everything one needs
> to do for an installation, without asking Windows users to use the command
> line (Command prompt on Windows, Terminal on Mac and Linux) ...  without
> having to learn to "ssh" to a remote server (most of us use web hosts in
> another city or even country, right, as opposed to sitting right in a room
> with their web servers?) etc.
>
>> Maybe I missed something but, that right there is not user friendly.
>
> I agree. With all appreciation and all due respect to Tom Geller who took
> the first swipe through creating the D7 guide, I would like to see the docs
> discuss  using ssh (for the more technical audience) or a friendly ftp
> client (for folks like you and me) to install on a computer one does not sit
> in front of.
>
> Please tell me if this is not the case with you, or if you simply do not
> agree, but I would think that among those who like us are not programmers,
> we are not trying to serve a Drupal site from our home computer. We need to
> understand how to upload and install Drupal on a computer "somewhere else on
> the internet". True? Or is this a misconception of mine colored by my own
> situation (although I must say that of the hundred or so colleagues I have
> in my - technical - field, very few of them maintain their own web servers
> in their office)
>
>> I've installed Drupal any number of times, and I still don't know what the
>> command line is. Most people who know nothing about Drupal and want to
>> install it, are going to start with the Installation Guide, and right off
>> it's made Drupal feel like if your not a programmer or someone who is
>> familiar with the "back end" of a system you should turn around.
>
> i agree that docs in the past tend to make one turn tail and run. So perhaps
> you and I can provide the perspective that's needed to be "user testers" and
> to help revise the docs to be completely understandable and usable by folks
> like us (who are, I had thought anyhow, the target "market" for Drupal ...
> "no need to know web programming" etc)
>>
>> So I wondered where should I discuss this, I jumped into the IRC channel
>> posted just that question "Where is the best place to discuss
>> documentation?" There were 25 people sitting in the channel, I waited over
>> 25 minutes and never received a response. Why are you in the channel if your
>> not going to chat?
>>
>> Unfriendly feeling... again.
>
> i have found this list to be very supportive of newbie doc contributors like
> us. At least here you've found me, who doesn't know PHP from MSG, lol.
>
>>
>> If Drupal truly intends to appeal to people outside the "geek" community,
>> this is the 1st thing that needs to be addressed.
>
> hear, hear! I think the folks here know this. It seems to be on the scale of
> a passionate misson on this list and under Addi's leadership. (If you don't
> know who she is you will soon.)
>
> I know, because I have felt it myself, that it can seem like trying to break
> into a clique when jumping into an OS project. (For example, "who is Addi?")
>  I don't for a second believe that is the intention of the people here, but
> it can just _feel_ that way because other folks already know each other, are
> familiar with efforts that are underway, already understand the do's and
> don'ts of modifying site content, and all of that. But we'll catch up, and
> so far my experience is that those who have been on this project a while are
> patient and friendly.
>
>>
>> What can I, what is the 1st step, I can take towards making that happen?
>> Do I post a comment to the issue about my thoughts on it. Do I go into the
>> IRC channel, do I post to this mailing list. Where does the discussion
>> begin, and happen?
>>
>
> Addi (the lead for this D7 docs project) has told me, when i asked the same
> kind of question, that most folks actually open an Issue for discussions
> like this. It's another twist in the more-than-odd Drupal semantics. In my
> entire 25-year-long career in computer applications, an "Issue" has always
> been a big, and, in some systems, might be a feature request. But not a
> simple topic for discussion.
>
> But since you asked here I'm answering here and I'm sure nobody will spank
> us! (right?)
>
> I have a proposition for you, Shari. This weekend I will be setting up a
> test site to install D7 and will be making mods or, more likely for now,
> comments against the text that Tom (Geller) started. My intent is to provide
> alternative or supplemental text where the instructions are confusing, or
> where they might be made easier by explaining how to accomplish an
> installation using more user-friendly tools. When I am done I will contact
> you and ask you to try installing again with my new notes and mods added to
> the instructions.
>
> I am planning to get my site set up tonight and to run through the docs by
> tomorrow night or very early Sunday.
>
> Are you game?
>
> ilyse
> (kazar @ drupal.org)
> --
> Pending work: http://drupal.org/project/issues/documentation/
> List archives: http://lists.drupal.org/pipermail/documentation/
>

--
Prometheus Labor Communications, Inc.
http://prometheuslabor.com
413-572-1300

Communicate or Die: American Labor Unions and the Internet
http://communicateordie.com
--
Pending work: http://drupal.org/project/issues/documentation/
List archives: http://lists.drupal.org/pipermail/documentation/

[Shari-9]

{snipped for brevity}

adept digital evolution wrote the following, On 8/7/2009 4:10 PM:

I use an ftp client program that I believe can handle everything one needs to do for an installation

Yes exactly what I was thinking.

With all appreciation and all due respect to Tom Geller

amen! I am appreciative of everything that has gone before. I just want to build on it.

I have a proposition for you, Shari. [snip] When I am done I will contact you and ask you to try installing again with my new notes and mods added to the instructions.

yep, I'm willing, my direct email is webweaver64 @ yahoo.com I will go to the issue suggested and add my thoughts, and when your done, will give it a go!

Thanks!
Shari

--
Pending work: http://drupal.org/project/issues/documentation/
List archives: http://lists.drupal.org/pipermail/documentation/

[Shari-9]

Thanks Shai, this is on my list of "to learns" so if you have a good cheater sheet I'd appreciate it :)

Shai Gluskin wrote the following, On 8/7/2009 4:53 PM:

:::shari's head explodes::::

The main command you need to know is the one you use to navigate around your computer or a remote computer like your web server: cd nameoffolder
Replace "nameoffolder" with the name of the folder you want to move into.
"cd"  stands for change directory.. To go "up" a level (go outside the 'folder' you are currently in), you type: cd ../
or to go up two levels: cd ../../
Also helpful is: ls
which lists all the files in your current directory.

Actually I used to work in dos (many moons ago), so this shouldn't be an issue for me, but for some reason, my head just doesn't want to go there ;-)
Shari

--
Pending work: http://drupal.org/project/issues/documentation/
List archives: http://lists.drupal.org/pipermail/documentation/

[Shai Gluskin-2]

Steve,

I think it is a big leap to assume that Sheri just sat at her computer waiting around for someone to answer her on IRC. I'm sure she wasn't wasting her time. But that doesn't mean it was fun. And it would certainly be confusing.

Your post implied like she is waiting to be served. I think her approach is the opposite. She wants to help. She wants to become a part of this open source community... but like anyone joining a new community, it can be hard learning the language etc.

And as for those of us "already here." I think there is a huge benefit when we are reflective enough to look at our methods to try to be more welcoming. Drupal has been so good because it keeps changing. If the Drupal community isn't open to self-reflection about what it means to welcome new blood, then I believe the quality of the software will actually falter.

Drupal has grown so much. I believe there are significant problems in how the community is "scaling." There isn't precedent for such a large open source community. Dries' leadership is absolutely welcoming, rewarding based on merit, self-reflective, self-critical... but I don't think that leadership gets to other levels. But that's getting us somewhere else.

I've run into a bunch of people who check in to open source/Drupal, feeling like they have something coming to them. It seems like your email was addressing one of them. Nothing in Sheri or Elyse's email communicates that kind of entitlement.

best,

Shai

On Fri, Aug 7, 2009 at 6:04 PM, Steve Dondley <s@...> wrote:

And let me play devil's advocate here.

You may find some people who are willing to hold your hand for some
length of time for free, but they will be few and far between. You
should have no expectations of that and count your blessings when you
do.

To really succeed, you need to be self-motivated and develop a love
for the pleasure you feel when you stop banging your head walls for
several hours. The 25 min. you spent waiting for an answer form others
could have been hunting around on drupal.org finding an answer and
googling what the command line was.

So what I'm saying is, you need to get over the "unfriendly" feeling
you have when someone doesn't immediately respond to your question.
You are owed nothing.

My advice is to just put your head down, work hard, bang your head on
the wall, take pleasure when you figure something out, find something
else to do if you get stuck, contribute when you get a chance, and
count your blessing when you find someone who takes the time to give
you advice. But the bottom line is, free advice and a helping hand
will take you maybe 20% of the way there. The rest has to come from
within.

On Fri, Aug 7, 2009 at 5:10 PM, adept digital evolution<techlists@...> wrote:
> On 08-07-2009 3:57 PM, Shari wrote:
>>
>> Hi my name is Shari, and I've been a member of this group for a long while
>> (actually forgot). I joined drupal.org over 2 years ago. I've started and
>> stopped working with Drupal over and over. I am however recommitting myself
>> to actually sticking with it. I plan to do this by investing my time &
>> money, and that means also giving back to the community. However it's been
>> my experience in the past, and again that although it's everywhere that
>> Drupal wants people to join in, and to make Drupal user friendly, this isn't
>> my experience.
>
> Shari, I'm coming from exactly the same experience. While I do have a strong
> technical background, stronger than perhaps 98% of the general public, I am
> not a programmer. But someone with my level of exposure (slightly more
> teckie than yours) should not have a hard time with a simple installation
> and in the past I have.
>
> So I am also committing to working on the D7 installation guide.
>>
>> I got started today by looking for something I could do, and went with the
>> Documentation Issues for D7. Review and update the Installation guide. So
>> started at the installation instructions and downloading D7. Right off the
>> bat, I noticed it saying "This documentation focuses on performing tasks at
>> the command line."
>
> I use an ftp client program that I believe can handle everything one needs
> to do for an installation, without asking Windows users to use the command
> line (Command prompt on Windows, Terminal on Mac and Linux) ...  without
> having to learn to "ssh" to a remote server (most of us use web hosts in
> another city or even country, right, as opposed to sitting right in a room
> with their web servers?) etc.
>
>> Maybe I missed something but, that right there is not user friendly.
>
> I agree. With all appreciation and all due respect to Tom Geller who took
> the first swipe through creating the D7 guide, I would like to see the docs
> discuss  using ssh (for the more technical audience) or a friendly ftp
> client (for folks like you and me) to install on a computer one does not sit
> in front of.
>
> Please tell me if this is not the case with you, or if you simply do not
> agree, but I would think that among those who like us are not programmers,
> we are not trying to serve a Drupal site from our home computer. We need to
> understand how to upload and install Drupal on a computer "somewhere else on
> the internet". True? Or is this a misconception of mine colored by my own
> situation (although I must say that of the hundred or so colleagues I have
> in my - technical - field, very few of them maintain their own web servers
> in their office)
>
>> I've installed Drupal any number of times, and I still don't know what the
>> command line is. Most people who know nothing about Drupal and want to
>> install it, are going to start with the Installation Guide, and right off
>> it's made Drupal feel like if your not a programmer or someone who is
>> familiar with the "back end" of a system you should turn around.
>
> i agree that docs in the past tend to make one turn tail and run. So perhaps
> you and I can provide the perspective that's needed to be "user testers" and
> to help revise the docs to be completely understandable and usable by folks
> like us (who are, I had thought anyhow, the target "market" for Drupal ...
> "no need to know web programming" etc)
>>
>> So I wondered where should I discuss this, I jumped into the IRC channel
>> posted just that question "Where is the best place to discuss
>> documentation?" There were 25 people sitting in the channel, I waited over
>> 25 minutes and never received a response. Why are you in the channel if your
>> not going to chat?
>>
>> Unfriendly feeling... again.
>
> i have found this list to be very supportive of newbie doc contributors like
> us. At least here you've found me, who doesn't know PHP from MSG, lol.
>
>>
>> If Drupal truly intends to appeal to people outside the "geek" community,
>> this is the 1st thing that needs to be addressed.
>
> hear, hear! I think the folks here know this. It seems to be on the scale of
> a passionate misson on this list and under Addi's leadership. (If you don't
> know who she is you will soon.)
>
> I know, because I have felt it myself, that it can seem like trying to break
> into a clique when jumping into an OS project. (For example, "who is Addi?")
>  I don't for a second believe that is the intention of the people here, but
> it can just _feel_ that way because other folks already know each other, are
> familiar with efforts that are underway, already understand the do's and
> don'ts of modifying site content, and all of that. But we'll catch up, and
> so far my experience is that those who have been on this project a while are
> patient and friendly.
>
>>
>> What can I, what is the 1st step, I can take towards making that happen?
>> Do I post a comment to the issue about my thoughts on it. Do I go into the
>> IRC channel, do I post to this mailing list. Where does the discussion
>> begin, and happen?
>>
>
> Addi (the lead for this D7 docs project) has told me, when i asked the same
> kind of question, that most folks actually open an Issue for discussions
> like this. It's another twist in the more-than-odd Drupal semantics. In my
> entire 25-year-long career in computer applications, an "Issue" has always
> been a big, and, in some systems, might be a feature request. But not a
> simple topic for discussion.
>
> But since you asked here I'm answering here and I'm sure nobody will spank
> us! (right?)
>
> I have a proposition for you, Shari. This weekend I will be setting up a
> test site to install D7 and will be making mods or, more likely for now,
> comments against the text that Tom (Geller) started. My intent is to provide
> alternative or supplemental text where the instructions are confusing, or
> where they might be made easier by explaining how to accomplish an
> installation using more user-friendly tools. When I am done I will contact
> you and ask you to try installing again with my new notes and mods added to
> the instructions.
>
> I am planning to get my site set up tonight and to run through the docs by
> tomorrow night or very early Sunday.
>
> Are you game?
>
> ilyse
> (kazar @ drupal.org)
> --
> Pending work: http://drupal.org/project/issues/documentation/
> List archives: http://lists.drupal.org/pipermail/documentation/
>

--
Prometheus Labor Communications, Inc.
http://prometheuslabor.com
413-572-1300

Communicate or Die: American Labor Unions and the Internet
http://communicateordie.com

--
Pending work: http://drupal.org/project/issues/documentation/
List archives: http://lists.drupal.org/pipermail/documentation/

--
Pending work: http://drupal.org/project/issues/documentation/
List archives: http://lists.drupal.org/pipermail/documentation/

[Shari-9]

Shai Gluskin wrote the following, On 8/7/2009 5:00 PM:

Sheri and Elyse,

I'd offer to be in IRC or available by email as you install your site... but I turn off my computer for 25 hours starting in about 45 minutes to observe the Jewish sabbath.

Thank you, may it be peaceful
Shari

--
Pending work: http://drupal.org/project/issues/documentation/
List archives: http://lists.drupal.org/pipermail/documentation/

[Shai Gluskin-2]

Sheri and all,

Here is my favorite cheat sheet. It doesn't have a lot of stuff... but that is sort of the advantage, and the way it is laid out it was easy to figure out the syntax. It's meant for downloading and printing:

http://fosswire.com/post/2007/08/unixlinux-command-cheat-sheet/

best,

Shai

On Fri, Aug 7, 2009 at 5:59 PM, Lynette <esmerel@...> wrote:

Hi Shari!

Regarding IRC, many people leave themselves connected to IRC even though they're not really following it; I don't really know why, unless they are just trying to make a log (maybe there's a better way).

Honestly, I've been using various chat-type clients for so long that it's ingrained in me to just leave it connected - I don't turn off my computer, why should I turn off my chat clients (especially when I hang out in 5 or 6 channels and reconnecting all those? bleh)? I'm used to people being able to reach me in whatever fashion and leave me messages - I know a number of people who are the same way.

There's also a lot of people who don't actively participate for various reasons (I showed up about 10 minutes after you left this morning after getting home from my kid's class) and there's plenty of times that people are on but just not paying attention. Don't take it personal :) There's often 300 people in -support and sometimes you still can't get an answer. ;)

I hope you find something you really can excel at in the docs. Installation and new user documentation is some of the most important stuff we have.

And Shai - you totally should put that tutorial up in the newbie guide. ;)

--
Pending work: http://drupal.org/project/issues/documentation/
List archives: http://lists.drupal.org/pipermail/documentation/

--
Pending work: http://drupal.org/project/issues/documentation/
List archives: http://lists.drupal.org/pipermail/documentation/

[Shari-9]

Yikes! umm Steve, I didn't ask for help with Drupal, or free help of any kind other then how I could HELP with the documentation.

Steve Dondley wrote the following, On 8/7/2009 5:04 PM:

And let me play devil's advocate here.

You may find some people who are willing to hold your hand for some
length of time for free, but they will be few and far between. You
should have no expectations of that and count your blessings when you
do.
  

I don't. I was responding to the call for people to help Drupal.

To really succeed, you need to be self-motivated and develop a love
for the pleasure you feel when you stop banging your head walls for
several hours. The 25 min. you spent waiting for an answer form others
could have been hunting around on drupal.org finding an answer and
googling what the command line was.
  

And this is why people say what they say about Drupal.
Isn't the documentation for the self-motivated? I didn't sit and wait, I'm a multitasker from way back. I wasn't looking for command line, I was looking where to post suggestions for the documentation as requested in the issue. I didn't know where to put that information.

So what I'm saying is, you need to get over the "unfriendly" feeling
you have when someone doesn't immediately respond to your question.
You are owed nothing.
  

your right. I'm not owed anything, however I don't have to get over anything. I was responding to Drupal.org request for contributing back. >From what I've read, and heard, and seen, there is a movement to change the publics view of Drupal. If you actually read my email I asked what I could do, and made an observation. If the intent of the community isn't to become more inclusive and user friendly, then hey sorry I offered to help. I'll just continue on learning it for myself.

My advice is to just put your head down, work hard, bang your head on
the wall, take pleasure when you figure something out, find something
else to do if you get stuck, contribute when you get a chance, and
count your blessing when you find someone who takes the time to give
you advice. But the bottom line is, free advice and a helping hand
will take you maybe 20% of the way there. The rest has to come from
within.

Again, I wasn't asking for free advice or a helping hand for Drupal, but for a way for ME to help in the documentation of Drupal.

Steve, I'm very happy with the responses I've received. Yours however really wasn't appropriate, nor even applied to what I was asking. I hope you day turns out better then this email indicates. Maybe you should quit bagging your head against the wall and take a break. I think I may have hit a nerve and that wasn't my intention.

Shari

--
Pending work: http://drupal.org/project/issues/documentation/
List archives: http://lists.drupal.org/pipermail/documentation/

[Steve Dondley-5]

> Your post implied like she is waiting to be served. I think her approach is
> the opposite. She wants to help. She wants to become a part of this open
> source community... but like anyone joining a new community, it can be hard
> learning the language etc.

I'm trying to help her develop a thicker skin. It's a needed trait.
I'm willing to bet that the non-technical people who succeeded with
Drupal didn't feel unwelcome or take it personally when someone didn't
leap to help them when they asked a question. If she doesn't get
discouraged the next time someone doesn't immediately jump in to
answer her questions, she will get further.
--
Pending work: http://drupal.org/project/issues/documentation/
List archives: http://lists.drupal.org/pipermail/documentation/

[Laura Scott-2]

On Aug 7, 2009, at Fri 8/7/09 4:39pm, Shari wrote:

> Again, I wasn't asking for free advice or a helping hand for Drupal,  
> but for a way for ME to help in the documentation of Drupal.

Hi Shari, I would like to add that you are an ideal person to help on  
the documentation. Once this stuff becomes old hat, it can be more  
difficult to anticipate the questions novices have. Your perspectives  
are very helpful in the endeavor!

Laura
--
Pending work: http://drupal.org/project/issues/documentation/
List archives: http://lists.drupal.org/pipermail/documentation/

[Shari-9]

Hi Lynette, I wasn't really meaning to complain but to share an observation. I do IRC chatting, I wasn't upset or anything really, just wanted to share how it could be felt, and to make an observation. As my subject stated just to give "Some thoughts."

I actually know that even though people show up as "in the room" that doesn't mean they are. For someone completely new to both Drupal & IRC, it could leave them feeling left out. Hence why I then suggested something be added to the auto responder. It's easy to forget what being the newbie is like, so while I was re-feeling it wanted to share.

I don't expect someone to be on the channel and able to answer my question the minute I connect. I actually left off when I left to go close some real life windows due to rain. ;-)

I was frustrated because I wanted to help, and actually couldn't find an outlet to do that. I have, and did, and now can.
All better now,
Shari


--
Pending work: http://drupal.org/project/issues/documentation/
List archives: http://lists.drupal.org/pipermail/documentation/

[Steve Dondley-5]

I'm not going to get into a point by point rebuttal over my advice.
You can choose to ignore it and this will be my last post on this. But
you stated:

"I've walked away from Drupal for 2 main reasons.
1. Documentation is way over my head.
2. Outside of the forum, it feels unfriendly."

All I'm saying is that if you really want to stick to it this time
around and have success contributing, then develop a thicker skin.
Don't take things personally if your aren't treated like a rock star
because you want to help the community. That is all.


On Fri, Aug 7, 2009 at 6:39 PM, Shari<webweaver64@...> wrote:

> Yikes! umm Steve, I didn't ask for help with Drupal, or free help of any
> kind other then how I could HELP with the documentation.
>
> Steve Dondley wrote the following, On 8/7/2009 5:04 PM:
>
> And let me play devil's advocate here.
>
> You may find some people who are willing to hold your hand for some
> length of time for free, but they will be few and far between. You
> should have no expectations of that and count your blessings when you
> do.
>
>
> I don't. I was responding to the call for people to help Drupal.
>
> To really succeed, you need to be self-motivated and develop a love
> for the pleasure you feel when you stop banging your head walls for
> several hours. The 25 min. you spent waiting for an answer form others
> could have been hunting around on drupal.org finding an answer and
> googling what the command line was.
>
>
> And this is why people say what they say about Drupal.
> Isn't the documentation for the self-motivated? I didn't sit and wait, I'm a
> multitasker from way back. I wasn't looking for command line, I was looking
> where to post suggestions for the documentation as requested in the issue. I
> didn't know where to put that information.
>
> So what I'm saying is, you need to get over the "unfriendly" feeling
> you have when someone doesn't immediately respond to your question.
> You are owed nothing.
>
>
> your right. I'm not owed anything, however I don't have to get over
> anything. I was responding to Drupal.org request for contributing back.
> >From what I've read, and heard, and seen, there is a movement to change the
> publics view of Drupal. If you actually read my email I asked what I could
> do, and made an observation. If the intent of the community isn't to become
> more inclusive and user friendly, then hey sorry I offered to help. I'll
> just continue on learning it for myself.
>
> My advice is to just put your head down, work hard, bang your head on
> the wall, take pleasure when you figure something out, find something
> else to do if you get stuck, contribute when you get a chance, and
> count your blessing when you find someone who takes the time to give
> you advice. But the bottom line is, free advice and a helping hand
> will take you maybe 20% of the way there. The rest has to come from
> within.
>
> Again, I wasn't asking for free advice or a helping hand for Drupal, but for
> a way for ME to help in the documentation of Drupal.
>
> Steve, I'm very happy with the responses I've received. Yours however really
> wasn't appropriate, nor even applied to what I was asking. I hope you day
> turns out better then this email indicates. Maybe you should quit bagging
> your head against the wall and take a break. I think I may have hit a nerve
> and that wasn't my intention.
>
> Shari
>
> --
> Pending work: http://drupal.org/project/issues/documentation/
> List archives: http://lists.drupal.org/pipermail/documentation/
>

--
Prometheus Labor Communications, Inc.
http://prometheuslabor.com
413-572-1300

Communicate or Die: American Labor Unions and the Internet
http://communicateordie.com
--
Pending work: http://drupal.org/project/issues/documentation/
List archives: http://lists.drupal.org/pipermail/documentation/

[adept digital evolution]

On 08-07-2009 6:43 PM, Steve Dondley wrote:
> If she doesn't get
> discouraged the next time someone doesn't immediately jump in to
> answer her questions, she will get further.
>  


she didn't get discouraged and slink off. she took the time to find this
project's list and posted a thoughtful honest message for us to read.

ilyse
--
Pending work: http://drupal.org/project/issues/documentation/
List archives: http://lists.drupal.org/pipermail/documentation/

[Steve Dondley-5]

> she didn't get discouraged and slink off. she took the time to find this
> project's list and posted a thoughtful honest message for us to read.

Per her original post, she did slink off, twice before. And I offered
advice so she doesn't slink off a third time.

>
> ilyse
> --
> Pending work: http://drupal.org/project/issues/documentation/
> List archives: http://lists.drupal.org/pipermail/documentation/
>



--
Prometheus Labor Communications, Inc.
http://prometheuslabor.com
413-572-1300

Communicate or Die: American Labor Unions and the Internet
http://communicateordie.com
--
Pending work: http://drupal.org/project/issues/documentation/
List archives: http://lists.drupal.org/pipermail/documentation/