Some to-do notes on Label tool

[Bill Kendrick]

FYI, playing with the Label tool last night, I corrected a few issues,
and made a list of other changes I'd like to see before I even start
thinking about "it's good enough for a release":

* FIX: Label is not applied when active and user hits Save
* ADD: Highlight selectable labels when selection option is active
* ADD: Use Hand mouse shape when hovering over a selectable label
* CHG: Once a label is selected, deactivate selection option
* CHG: When changing away from Label tool, deactivate selection option
* ADD: Figure out how to manage choosing labels when they overlap
* CHK: Make sure it only saves what it needs to

(chg = change, chk = check)


If anyone else has played with it (esp. since my commits from around
Oct. 10, 06:00 UTC) and has other suggestions or concerns, please let's
talk about them here!

Thanks!

And big thanks to Bruno for implementing the initial code, and to Pere
for doing the initial integration (merging into tuxpaint.c over a year
after the fact).

--
-bill!
Sent from my computer

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[Albert Cahalan-2]

On Sat, Oct 10, 2009 at 12:01 PM, Bill Kendrick <nbs@...> wrote:

> If anyone else has played with it (esp. since my commits from around
> Oct. 10, 06:00 UTC) and has other suggestions or concerns, please let's
> talk about them here!

I know nothing about it, but I can still discuss it. :-)

I hope this doesn't get confused with the text tool.

I hope the label can serve as a filename. Character restrictions
would be helpful. There are many characters banned by Win32,
and plenty that are at least undesirable for Linux and OS X.

I hope the label is displayed in the UI, but not on the canvas.
When not full screen, it could go on the title bar or program icon.
For printing, it should go outside of the kid's work.

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[Bill Kendrick]

On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 12:05:37AM -0400, Albert Cahalan wrote:
> On Sat, Oct 10, 2009 at 12:01 PM, Bill Kendrick <nbs@...> wrote:
>
> > If anyone else has played with it (esp. since my commits from around
> > Oct. 10, 06:00 UTC) and has other suggestions or concerns, please let's
> > talk about them here!
>
> I know nothing about it, but I can still discuss it. :-)
>
> I hope this doesn't get confused with the text tool.

This tool is for creating text on the canvas, just like Text tool,
except they 'float above' the picture.  They aren't affected by Magic
effects, can't b painted or stamped over, and can be moved and
edited at a later time.

This kind of functionality has been requested _numerous_ times by
various schoolteachers over the years.  The Text tool plus Undo/Redo or
fiddling with the Eraser tool was not sufficient for a lot of their
students.

How to make this tool obvious and usable is something I'm concerned
about.  Thinking about it right now, it might make sense to just ditch
the regular "Text" tool, and provide a specific "blit onto my painting"
button, to finalize the text.

The text will be unaffected by other tools, and can be edited and
moved after the fact, which is very useful.  If a kid REALLY wants to
blur the text, they can do an equivalent of Gimp's "Discard Text Information".


> I hope the label can serve as a filename. Character restrictions
> would be helpful. There are many characters banned by Win32,
> and plenty that are at least undesirable for Linux and OS X.

This would be an Import/Export or Open/Save As... feature, which has
also been requested.  But at this point, teachers are usually happy
enough once we tell them where the files get stored.

Being able to provide titles for images (separate from naming the
files; but metadata that can be added to the picture) would ALSO be
a nice feature.  (Think the plaque below a painting at a museum.)

-bill!

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[Albert Cahalan]

On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 1:36 AM, Bill Kendrick <nbs@...> wrote:
> On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 12:05:37AM -0400, Albert Cahalan wrote:

>> I hope this doesn't get confused with the text tool.
>
> This tool is for creating text on the canvas, just like Text tool,
> except they 'float above' the picture.  They aren't affected by Magic
> effects, can't b painted or stamped over, and can be moved and
> edited at a later time.
>
> This kind of functionality has been requested _numerous_ times by
> various schoolteachers over the years.  The Text tool plus Undo/Redo or
> fiddling with the Eraser tool was not sufficient for a lot of their
> students.

It's not a good idea merely because teachers request it.
Teachers might not realize the UI confusion that may result,
trading one set of problems for another. Teachers certainly
have no clue about the performance (CPU use) situation.

I have a feeling this "feature" should be disabled by default.

> How to make this tool obvious and usable is something I'm concerned
> about.  Thinking about it right now, it might make sense to just ditch
> the regular "Text" tool, and provide a specific "blit onto my painting"
> button, to finalize the text.

I doubt it, but...

That "blit onto my painting" operation could be a mouse click in
the drawing area. Think of the tool as being a stamp tool that
generates the stamp as you type. Each time you click, your text
gets placed into the drawing. When you type, the stamp outline
changes.

> The text will be unaffected by other tools, and can be edited and
> moved after the fact, which is very useful.  If a kid REALLY wants to
> blur the text, they can do an equivalent of Gimp's "Discard Text Information".

Ugh.

I hope you realize that teachers (mostly not the same teachers)
will now be complaining that blur doesn't work on label text!

>> I hope the label can serve as a filename. Character restrictions
>> would be helpful. There are many characters banned by Win32,
>> and plenty that are at least undesirable for Linux and OS X.
>
> This would be an Import/Export or Open/Save As... feature, which has
> also been requested.  But at this point, teachers are usually happy
> enough once we tell them where the files get stored.

Not really. I'm not suggesting anything related to directory
structure. The default label is the date/time code currently
used for a filename, and it could be changed.

Right now it's very hard to find an image in that directory.
I go in there with bash and... how am I supposed to guess
which file is my kid's drawing?

> Being able to provide titles for images (separate from naming the
> files; but metadata that can be added to the picture) would ALSO be
> a nice feature.  (Think the plaque below a painting at a museum.)

It's simpler if this is all one-and-the-same. The print dialog can get
an option to add the title/filename/label above or below the image.

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[Bill Kendrick]

On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 02:21:54AM -0400, Albert Cahalan wrote:
> It's not a good idea merely because teachers request it.
> Teachers might not realize the UI confusion that may result,
> trading one set of problems for another. Teachers certainly
> have no clue about the performance (CPU use) situation.

I think enough teachers have requested it, and I trust that they'll be
able to explain it to their students.


> I have a feeling this "feature" should be disabled by default.

I agree that it should be something that can be turned off, and it
already is.


<snip>
> That "blit onto my painting" operation could be a mouse click in
> the drawing area.

Right now, since we don't do much in the way of click+drag for moving or
placing objects, clicking elsewhere in the drawing is used to move the
Text or Label.


> Think of the tool as being a stamp tool that
> generates the stamp as you type. Each time you click, your text
> gets placed into the drawing. When you type, the stamp outline
> changes.

I'm not sure what the point of that is.  It sounds more-or-less like the
current Text tool.


> I hope you realize that teachers (mostly not the same teachers)
> will now be complaining that blur doesn't work on label text!

Without delving into a realm that even GIMP doesn'thave yet (layer-based
filter effects), I'm not seeing a way of keeping everyone happy. :)

("I want to blur it, but then I want to go back and edit what it says and
change the font size."  Not going to happen.)


<snip>
> Not really. I'm not suggesting anything related to directory
> structure. The default label is the date/time code currently
> used for a filename, and it could be changed.

I think an Import/Export system might be best.  And something not even
necessarily part of Tux Paint proper.


> Right now it's very hard to find an image in that directory.
> I go in there with bash and... how am I supposed to guess
> which file is my kid's drawing?

When it comes to dealing with graphics, I'm noticing I move more and more
away from the command-line. ;)  (e.g., Dolphin or Gwenview; or back in the
day, XV)


> > Being able to provide titles for images (separate from naming the
> > files; but metadata that can be added to the picture) would ALSO be
> > a nice feature.  (Think the plaque below a painting at a museum.)
>
> It's simpler if this is all one-and-the-same. The print dialog can get
> an option to add the title/filename/label above or below the image.

That's a nice idea...  (of course, then you get people wanting different
fonts, or positions, or can we add the kid's name, etc.  Then I start
thinking _this_ doesn't belong in Tux Paint, but in Tux Print, which I
never got far with.)

-bill!

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[Albert Cahalan-2]

On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 12:48 PM, Bill Kendrick <nbs@...> wrote:
> On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 02:21:54AM -0400, Albert Cahalan wrote:

>> It's not a good idea merely because teachers request it.
>> Teachers might not realize the UI confusion that may result,
>> trading one set of problems for another. Teachers certainly
>> have no clue about the performance (CPU use) situation.
>
> I think enough teachers have requested it, and I trust that they'll be
> able to explain it to their students.

Sure, **those** teachers. There are other teachers too.
There are also parents, kids with no adult to explain, etc.

>> That "blit onto my painting" operation could be a mouse click in
>> the drawing area.
...
>> Think of the tool as being a stamp tool that
>> generates the stamp as you type. Each time you click, your text
>> gets placed into the drawing. When you type, the stamp outline
>> changes.
>
> I'm not sure what the point of that is.  It sounds more-or-less like the
> current Text tool.

Nope. With the current tool, text is (well, appears to be) placed
on the canvas immediately. Clicking lets you move it, despite the
fact that it has been placed on the canvas. This makes text odd.
Writing text in multiple places is hard because you tend to end
up just moving your text when you try to start in a new spot.

I'm suggesting that typing modifies a stamp outline. It doesn't go
onto the canvas. When the stamp outline is what you like, you
then stamp it in all the places you want it.

The consistancy with the stamp tool could reduce the total
effort required for learning to use Tux Paint.

>> Not really. I'm not suggesting anything related to directory
>> structure. The default label is the date/time code currently
>> used for a filename, and it could be changed.
>
> I think an Import/Export system might be best.  And something
> not even necessarily part of Tux Paint proper.

If it's not in Tux Paint proper, it doesn't exist.

External tools work for the most organized and sophisticated
computer teachers. They don't work for kids.

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[Caroline Ford-2]

We NEED a parent friendly import option. Very common complaint.

Sent from a mobile device.

On 12 Oct 2009, at 20:27, Albert Cahalan  
<albert@...> wrote:

> On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 12:48 PM, Bill Kendrick <nbs@...> wrote:
>> On Mon, Oct 12, 2009 at 02:21:54AM -0400, Albert Cahalan wrote:
>
>>> It's not a good idea merely because teachers request it.
>>> Teachers might not realize the UI confusion that may result,
>>> trading one set of problems for another. Teachers certainly
>>> have no clue about the performance (CPU use) situation.
>>
>> I think enough teachers have requested it, and I trust that they'll  
>> be
>> able to explain it to their students.
>
> Sure, **those** teachers. There are other teachers too.
> There are also parents, kids with no adult to explain, etc.
>
>>> That "blit onto my painting" operation could be a mouse click in
>>> the drawing area.
> ...
>>> Think of the tool as being a stamp tool that
>>> generates the stamp as you type. Each time you click, your text
>>> gets placed into the drawing. When you type, the stamp outline
>>> changes.
>>
>> I'm not sure what the point of that is.  It sounds more-or-less  
>> like the
>> current Text tool.
>
> Nope. With the current tool, text is (well, appears to be) placed
> on the canvas immediately. Clicking lets you move it, despite the
> fact that it has been placed on the canvas. This makes text odd.
> Writing text in multiple places is hard because you tend to end
> up just moving your text when you try to start in a new spot.
>
> I'm suggesting that typing modifies a stamp outline. It doesn't go
> onto the canvas. When the stamp outline is what you like, you
> then stamp it in all the places you want it.
>
> The consistancy with the stamp tool could reduce the total
> effort required for learning to use Tux Paint.
>
>>> Not really. I'm not suggesting anything related to directory
>>> structure. The default label is the date/time code currently
>>> used for a filename, and it could be changed.
>>
>> I think an Import/Export system might be best.  And something
>> not even necessarily part of Tux Paint proper.
>
> If it's not in Tux Paint proper, it doesn't exist.
>
> External tools work for the most organized and sophisticated
> computer teachers. They don't work for kids.
>
> ---
> ---
> ---
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> Come build with us! The BlackBerry(R) Developer Conference in SF, CA
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> developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and  
> stay
> ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9 - 12, 2009. Register now!
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> Tuxpaint-devel mailing list
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[Pere Pujal i Carabantes-2]

Hi! Newly here. Hope is not to late to reply this mail.

El ds 10 de 10 de 2009 a les 09:01 -0700, en Bill Kendrick va escriure:
> FYI, playing with the Label tool last night, I corrected a few issues,
> and made a list of other changes I'd like to see before I even start
> thinking about "it's good enough for a release":
>
> * FIX: Label is not applied when active and user hits Save
> * ADD: Highlight selectable labels when selection option is active
> * ADD: Use Hand mouse shape when hovering over a selectable label
> * CHG: Once a label is selected, deactivate selection option
> * CHG: When changing away from Label tool, deactivate selection option

Why?  Now it is consistent with other tools like Magic.
Clic on magic, select any tool fullscreen capable and select fullscreen,
going away from this tool or from magic and returning to this tool
recovers the fullscreen setting. The same happens now with the select
option in label.

> * ADD: Figure out how to manage choosing labels when they overlap
> * CHK: Make sure it only saves what it needs to
>
* FIX: Label is applied as plain text when hitting CTRL+P

> (chg = change, chk = check)
>
>
> If anyone else has played with it (esp. since my commits from around
> Oct. 10, 06:00 UTC) and has other suggestions or concerns, please let's
> talk about them here!
>
I will see what I can do on them...

> Thanks!
>
> And big thanks to Bruno for implementing the initial code,

I think Bruno was doing the filesystem's dialog, still not merged.
The label text was done by Arunodai Vudem, and was mentored by Mark.
http://code.google.com/p/tuxpaint-text/people/list


> and to Pere
> for doing the initial integration (merging into tuxpaint.c over a year
> after the fact).

You are welcome. Really I am just beginning to learn programming ad
Tuxpaint is a great program to play and learn :)

Yours
Pere


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[Pere Pujal i Carabantes-2]

El dg 18 de 10 de 2009 a les 14:21 +0200, en/na Pere Pujal i Carabantes
va escriure:

> * FIX: Label is applied as plain text when hitting CTRL+P

Sorry, this was when clicking on the Print button, a fix is in CVS.

Pere



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