Stupid MUA Behavior (Trash)

[Jeffrey D. Means]

Why is it that when using Evolution as a MUA with IMAP when I delete a piece of mail I have to take a 4 step process to actually delete the trash:
1: Pressing delete places it in the Evolution Trash folder for the IMAP account
2: Expunging the IMAP Account/IMAP/Trash folder moves it to my IMAP Account/Inbox/Trash folder
3: Deleting the items in the IMAP Account/Inbox/Trash folder
4: Finally now I can / have to expunge the Inbox/Trash as well

This is not how I expect the delete process to work (Let me know if this really is the expected behavior, I can't imagine that it is though.)  I have two solutions to this process:
1: Remove the Evolution catch folder Trash for accounts that are IMAP
2: When expunging the Evolution Trash folder actually delete the mail rather than telling the IMAP server to delete the mail (Probably not possible because of constraints / compatibility issues on the IMAP server)

Jeffrey D. Means                                            meaje@...
Owner / CIO for MeansPC                          http://www.meanspc.com/
Custom Web Development For Your Needs.                 [phone]

- The stupidity of a stupid person is exercised in a restricted
field; the stupidity of an intelligent individual has a much broader
diffusion, and far greater effect, aided  as it is by the element
of surprise.

- WTO + WIPO = DMCA? http://www.anti-dmca.org
- Fight Internet Censorship! http://www.eff.org
= This is not about Napster or DVDs. It's about your Freedom. http://www.anti-dmca.org

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and available via: 
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[Jeffrey Stedfast]

On Tue, 2005-08-23 at 07:45 -0600, Jeffrey D. Means wrote:
> Why is it that when using Evolution as a MUA with IMAP when I delete a
> piece of mail I have to take a 4 step process to actually delete the
> trash:
> 1: Pressing delete places it in the Evolution Trash folder for the
> IMAP account

hitting delete on a message in, say, INBOX, just flags the message as
deleted (this is how IMAP works, and in fact, all other mail clients)

> 2: Expunging the IMAP Account/IMAP/Trash folder moves it to my IMAP
> Account/Inbox/Trash folder

no idea what you are saying here as this makes no sense.

if you Expunge in INBOX (or whatever folder you deleted a message from),
it removes it from the server (and virtual Trash folder as well)
permanently.

> 3: Deleting the items in the IMAP Account/Inbox/Trash folder

no need... and in fact can't. a message in the Trash folder is already
marked as Deleted.

> 4: Finally now I can / have to expunge the Inbox/Trash as well

eh? the message was completely wiped from the server at step 2...


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[Jeffrey D. Means]

On Tue, 2005-08-23 at 10:09 -0400, Jeffrey Stedfast wrote:
> On Tue, 2005-08-23 at 07:45 -0600, Jeffrey D. Means wrote:
> > Why is it that when using Evolution as a MUA with IMAP when I delete a
> > piece of mail I have to take a 4 step process to actually delete the
> > trash:
> > 1: Pressing delete places it in the Evolution Trash folder for the
> > IMAP account
>
> hitting delete on a message in, say, INBOX, just flags the message as
> deleted (this is how IMAP works, and in fact, all other mail clients)

True it does flag it as deleted but it places it in the Evolution/Trash
folder under the IMAP account which you have to expunge to get the
message moved to the Account/Inbox/Trash folder where you again have to
flag it as deleted then expunge that folder to actually delete the
message.

I only found this to be true after wondering where I had tied up 500MB
of space in my Maildir on the server I run.  It turned out I had over 1
million messages going back over the past year that were flagged as
deleted but not expunged from my IMAP trash folder.  As I just proved
that you really have to delete the message in a 4 step process as I
outlined earlier.  Also you have to expunge _each_ folder individually
to ensure that the message really is removed from the folder not just
marked deleted (this is probably IMAP standard behavior.)  The software
I am running is courier-IMAP with qmail behind it.

>
> > 2: Expunging the IMAP Account/IMAP/Trash folder moves it to my IMAP
> > Account/Inbox/Trash folder
>
> no idea what you are saying here as this makes no sense.
>
> if you Expunge in INBOX (or whatever folder you deleted a message from),
> it removes it from the server (and virtual Trash folder as well)
> permanently.
>
> > 3: Deleting the items in the IMAP Account/Inbox/Trash folder
>
> no need... and in fact can't. a message in the Trash folder is already
> marked as Deleted.
>
> > 4: Finally now I can / have to expunge the Inbox/Trash as well
>
> eh? the message was completely wiped from the server at step 2...
>
>

Jeffrey D. Means

meaje@...
Owner / CIO for MeansPC                          http://www.meanspc.com/
Custom Web Development For Your Needs.                 [phone]

- The stupidity of a stupid person is exercised in a restricted
field; the stupidity of an intelligent individual has a much broader
diffusion, and far greater effect, aided  as it is by the element
of surprise.

- WTO + WIPO = DMCA? http://www.anti-dmca.org
- Fight Internet Censorship! http://www.eff.org
= This is not about Napster or DVDs. It's about your Freedom.
http://www.anti-dmca.org

My Public PGP Key ID is: 0x81F00126
and available via:  
http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x81F00126




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[Jeffrey Stedfast]

Jeffrey D. Means wrote:

On Tue, 2005-08-23 at 10:09 -0400, Jeffrey Stedfast wrote:
  

On Tue, 2005-08-23 at 07:45 -0600, Jeffrey D. Means wrote:
    

Why is it that when using Evolution as a MUA with IMAP when I delete a
piece of mail I have to take a 4 step process to actually delete the
trash:
1: Pressing delete places it in the Evolution Trash folder for the
IMAP account
      

hitting delete on a message in, say, INBOX, just flags the message as
deleted (this is how IMAP works, and in fact, all other mail clients)
    

True it does flag it as deleted but it places it in the Evolution/Trash
folder under the IMAP account which you have to expunge to get the
message moved to the Account/Inbox/Trash folder where you again have to
flag it as deleted then expunge that folder to actually delete the
message.
  

it sounds to me that the heart of your problems is to be blamed on the IMAP server (Courier IMAP most likely) which implements its own Trash folder by moving messages which have been expunged (expunge == removed permanently, hence why this server "feature" is crack) and placing it in its own Trash folder behind Evolution's back.

I only found this to be true after wondering where I had tied up 500MB
of space in my Maildir on the server I run.  It turned out I had over 1
million messages going back over the past year that were flagged as
deleted but not expunged from my IMAP trash folder.  As I just proved
that you really have to delete the message in a 4 step process as I
outlined earlier.  Also you have to expunge _each_ folder individually
to ensure that the message really is removed from the folder not just
marked deleted (this is probably IMAP standard behavior.)  The software
I am running is courier-IMAP with qmail behind it.
  

aha, just as I suspected... Courier-IMAP. Not surprised in the least...

this is only a problem with Courier-IMAP because it doesn't actually comply with the IMAP specifications, it makes stuff up as it goes along (not only does it not implement the IMAP protocol properly - we have many workarounds already in the code - but it also extends IMAP in ways that are completely on crack)


My suggestion: get a real IMAP server like Cyrus, Dovecot, uw.imap, etc. Stay well away from Courier...

With any proper IMAP server, it's a 2-step process. Delete message in folder. Expunge folder (or Empty Trash whuich expunges all the IMAP account's folders). All gone.

Jeff


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[Paul Leyland]

> Message: 3
> Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 10:09:16 -0400
> From: Jeffrey Stedfast <fejj@...>
> Subject: Re: [Evolution] Stupid MUA Behavior (Trash)
> To: "Jeffrey D. Means" <meaje@...>
> Cc: "evolution@..." <evolution@...>
> Message-ID: <1124806156.21765.7.camel@...>
> Content-Type: text/plain
>
> On Tue, 2005-08-23 at 07:45 -0600, Jeffrey D. Means wrote:
> > Why is it that when using Evolution as a MUA with IMAP when I delete a
> > piece of mail I have to take a 4 step process to actually delete the
> > trash:
> > 1: Pressing delete places it in the Evolution Trash folder for the
> > IMAP account
>
> hitting delete on a message in, say, INBOX, just flags the message as
> deleted (this is how IMAP works, and in fact, all other mail clients)

I'm not entirely sure if you meant what you wrote there, or whether you
meant that it's how all mail clients of an IMAP server behave.

I'm still smarting over losing 11 days of mail through a combination of
incompetence and unfamiliarity with an email client.   When on vacation
a few weeks ago I didn't have proper net access and was reduced to using
a web-mail client to read my accumulated mail.  I tried to mark and
delete all the spam but succeeded in marking and deleting everything.
There was no undelete function  8-(

An urgent mail to my ISP's helldesk revealed that they considered a RAID
array adequate backup.  They were concerned only about hardware
reliability and (apparently) don't take any precautions against
software-inflicted data corruption.


Paul


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[Anders.Naslund]

 Please note that some webmail clients work with pop (and "leave messages on server" feature so You can pick them up later).
When You delete from one of those...it's expunged, not deleted.
A true IMAP works as decribed...

/A

-----Original Message-----
From: evolution-bounces@... [mailto:evolution-bounces@...] On Behalf Of Paul Leyland
Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2005 6:27 PM
To: evolution@...
Cc: fejj@...
Subject: Re: [Evolution] Stupid MUA Behavior (Trash)

> Message: 3
> Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 10:09:16 -0400
> From: Jeffrey Stedfast <fejj@...>
> Subject: Re: [Evolution] Stupid MUA Behavior (Trash)
> To: "Jeffrey D. Means" <meaje@...>
> Cc: "evolution@..." <evolution@...>
> Message-ID: <1124806156.21765.7.camel@...>
> Content-Type: text/plain
>
> On Tue, 2005-08-23 at 07:45 -0600, Jeffrey D. Means wrote:
> > Why is it that when using Evolution as a MUA with IMAP when I delete
> > a piece of mail I have to take a 4 step process to actually delete
> > the
> > trash:
> > 1: Pressing delete places it in the Evolution Trash folder for the
> > IMAP account
>
> hitting delete on a message in, say, INBOX, just flags the message as
> deleted (this is how IMAP works, and in fact, all other mail clients)

I'm not entirely sure if you meant what you wrote there, or whether you meant that it's how all mail clients of an IMAP server behave.

I'm still smarting over losing 11 days of mail through a combination of
incompetence and unfamiliarity with an email client.   When on vacation
a few weeks ago I didn't have proper net access and was reduced to using a web-mail client to read my accumulated mail.  I tried to mark and delete all the spam but succeeded in marking and deleting everything.
There was no undelete function  8-(

An urgent mail to my ISP's helldesk revealed that they considered a RAID array adequate backup.  They were concerned only about hardware reliability and (apparently) don't take any precautions against software-inflicted data corruption.


Paul


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[Ron Johnson]

On Tue, 2005-08-23 at 11:19 -0400, Jeffrey Stedfast wrote:

>
>
> Jeffrey D. Means wrote:
> > On Tue, 2005-08-23 at 10:09 -0400, Jeffrey Stedfast wrote:
> >  
> > > On Tue, 2005-08-23 at 07:45 -0600, Jeffrey D. Means wrote:
> > >    
> > > > Why is it that when using Evolution as a MUA with IMAP when I delete a
> > > > piece of mail I have to take a 4 step process to actually delete the
> > > > trash:
> > > > 1: Pressing delete places it in the Evolution Trash folder for the
> > > > IMAP account
> > > >      
> > > hitting delete on a message in, say, INBOX, just flags the message as
> > > deleted (this is how IMAP works, and in fact, all other mail clients)
> > >    
> >
> > True it does flag it as deleted but it places it in the Evolution/Trash
> > folder under the IMAP account which you have to expunge to get the
> > message moved to the Account/Inbox/Trash folder where you again have to
> > flag it as deleted then expunge that folder to actually delete the
> > message.
> >  
>
> it sounds to me that the heart of your problems is to be blamed on the
> IMAP server (Courier IMAP most likely) which implements its own Trash
> folder by moving messages which have been expunged (expunge == removed
> permanently, hence why this server "feature" is crack) and placing it
> in its own Trash folder behind Evolution's back.
>
> > I only found this to be true after wondering where I had tied up 500MB
> > of space in my Maildir on the server I run.  It turned out I had over 1
> > million messages going back over the past year that were flagged as
> > deleted but not expunged from my IMAP trash folder.  As I just proved
> > that you really have to delete the message in a 4 step process as I
> > outlined earlier.  Also you have to expunge _each_ folder individually
> > to ensure that the message really is removed from the folder not just
> > marked deleted (this is probably IMAP standard behavior.)  The software
> > I am running is courier-IMAP with qmail behind it.
> >  
>
> aha, just as I suspected... Courier-IMAP. Not surprised in the
> least...
>
> this is only a problem with Courier-IMAP because it doesn't actually
> comply with the IMAP specifications, it makes stuff up as it goes
> along (not only does it not implement the IMAP protocol properly - we
> have many workarounds already in the code - but it also extends IMAP
> in ways that are completely on crack)
>
>
> My suggestion: get a real IMAP server like Cyrus, Dovecot, uw.imap,
> etc. Stay well away from Courier...
>
> With any proper IMAP server, it's a 2-step process. Delete message in
> folder. Expunge folder (or Empty Trash whuich expunges all the IMAP
> account's folders). All gone.

I use Courier-IMAP, and I *promise* you that deleting is a 2-step
process!

You have to reconfigure Courier to do it, though.  In Debian, the
file /etc/courier/imapd has this option, which you must set:
  IMAP_MOVE_EXPUNGE_TO_TRASH=0

I "uncheck" Hide Deleted Messages, so that they can be undeleted,
and, because of IMAP_MOVE_EXPUNGE_TO_TRASH=0, Actions->"Empty
Trash" permanently zaps emails.

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson, LA USA
PGP Key ID 8834C06B I prefer encrypted mail.

"Do you really think the Moon is not there when you're not
looking?"
Einstein, on quantum mechanics



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[Ron Johnson]

On Tue, 2005-08-23 at 17:27 +0100, Paul Leyland wrote:

> > Message: 3
> > Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 10:09:16 -0400
> > From: Jeffrey Stedfast <fejj@...>
> > Subject: Re: [Evolution] Stupid MUA Behavior (Trash)
> > To: "Jeffrey D. Means" <meaje@...>
> > Cc: "evolution@..." <evolution@...>
> > Message-ID: <1124806156.21765.7.camel@...>
> > Content-Type: text/plain
> >
> > On Tue, 2005-08-23 at 07:45 -0600, Jeffrey D. Means wrote:

[snip]
>
> I'm still smarting over losing 11 days of mail through a combination of
> incompetence and unfamiliarity with an email client.   When on vacation
> a few weeks ago I didn't have proper net access and was reduced to using
> a web-mail client to read my accumulated mail.  I tried to mark and
> delete all the spam but succeeded in marking and deleting everything.
> There was no undelete function  8-(

Fetchmail+an_MTA+IMAP+Apache+a_webmail_app lets you have control.

> An urgent mail to my ISP's helldesk revealed that they considered a RAID
> array adequate backup.  They were concerned only about hardware
> reliability and (apparently) don't take any precautions against
> software-inflicted data corruption.

Time to get a new ISP!

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson, LA USA
PGP Key ID 8834C06B I prefer encrypted mail.

"He used statistics the way a drunkard uses lampposts - for
support, not illumination."
Andrew Lang



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[Paul Leyland]

> Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 13:53:05 -0500
> From: Ron Johnson <ron.l.johnson@...>
>
> On Tue, 2005-08-23 at 17:27 +0100, Paul Leyland wrote:
 
> > I'm still smarting over losing 11 days of mail through a combination of
> > incompetence and unfamiliarity with an email client.   When on vacation
> > a few weeks ago I didn't have proper net access and was reduced to using
> > a web-mail client to read my accumulated mail.  I tried to mark and
> > delete all the spam but succeeded in marking and deleting everything.
> > There was no undelete function  8-(

> Fetchmail+an_MTA+IMAP+Apache+a_webmail_app lets you have control.

I'm sure it does.  Pray tell me how to persuade an internet cafe located
in a small fishing port in one of the more remote parts of the country to
install it for me on a system that normally runs XP and IE.

I had a laptop with me, but no phoneline and no cellphone coverage.
Rural Cornwall is a rather remote part of the country!

> > An urgent mail to my ISP's helldesk revealed that they considered a RAID
> > array adequate backup.  They were concerned only about hardware
> > reliability and (apparently) don't take any precautions against
> > software-inflicted data corruption.

> Time to get a new ISP!

I've been giving serious thought to that.

This is now getting rather off-topic, so I'll try to draw this thread to
a close now.

Cheers,
        Paul


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[Jeffrey D. Means]

On Tue, 2005-08-23 at 11:19 -0400, Jeffrey Stedfast wrote:

Jeffrey D. Means wrote:

On Tue, 2005-08-23 at 10:09 -0400, Jeffrey Stedfast wrote:
  

On Tue, 2005-08-23 at 07:45 -0600, Jeffrey D. Means wrote:
    

Why is it that when using Evolution as a MUA with IMAP when I delete a
piece of mail I have to take a 4 step process to actually delete the
trash:
1: Pressing delete places it in the Evolution Trash folder for the
IMAP account
      

hitting delete on a message in, say, INBOX, just flags the message as
deleted (this is how IMAP works, and in fact, all other mail clients)
    

True it does flag it as deleted but it places it in the Evolution/Trash
folder under the IMAP account which you have to expunge to get the
message moved to the Account/Inbox/Trash folder where you again have to
flag it as deleted then expunge that folder to actually delete the
message.
  

it sounds to me that the heart of your problems is to be blamed on the IMAP server (Courier IMAP most likely) which implements its own Trash folder by moving messages which have been expunged (expunge == removed permanently, hence why this server "feature" is crack) and placing it in its own Trash folder behind Evolution's back.

I only found this to be true after wondering where I had tied up 500MB
of space in my Maildir on the server I run.  It turned out I had over 1
million messages going back over the past year that were flagged as
deleted but not expunged from my IMAP trash folder.  As I just proved
that you really have to delete the message in a 4 step process as I
outlined earlier.  Also you have to expunge _each_ folder individually
to ensure that the message really is removed from the folder not just
marked deleted (this is probably IMAP standard behavior.)  The software
I am running is courier-IMAP with qmail behind it.
  

aha, just as I suspected... Courier-IMAP. Not surprised in the least...

this is only a problem with Courier-IMAP because it doesn't actually comply with the IMAP specifications, it makes stuff up as it goes along (not only does it not implement the IMAP protocol properly - we have many workarounds already in the code - but it also extends IMAP in ways that are completely on crack)


My suggestion: get a real IMAP server like Cyrus, Dovecot, uw.imap, etc. Stay well away from Courier...

With any proper IMAP server, it's a 2-step process. Delete message in folder. Expunge folder (or Empty Trash whuich expunges all the IMAP account's folders). All gone.

Jeff

Thanks for the advice I will look into implementing this advice as I don't enjoy dealing w/ software that does not implement well defined standards...
--Jeff

Jeffrey D. Means                                            meaje@...
Owner / CIO for MeansPC                          http://www.meanspc.com/
Custom Web Development For Your Needs.                 [phone]

- The stupidity of a stupid person is exercised in a restricted
field; the stupidity of an intelligent individual has a much broader
diffusion, and far greater effect, aided  as it is by the element
of surprise.

- WTO + WIPO = DMCA? http://www.anti-dmca.org
- Fight Internet Censorship! http://www.eff.org
= This is not about Napster or DVDs. It's about your Freedom. http://www.anti-dmca.org

My Public PGP Key ID is: 0x81F00126
and available via: 
http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x81F00126

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