Sun begins to fund JVM scripting languages

[tugwilson]

http://headius.blogspot.com/2006/09/jruby-steps-into-sun.html

Congratulations to our Hausmates:)


John Wilson
The Wilson Partnership
web http://www.wilson.co.uk
blog http://eek.ook.org



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[Tom Nichols]

Not to bash JRuby, but has Sun shown any 'official' support to the
Groovy project?  I would have thought Groovy has a lot more potential
in terms of interoperability, since it reuses Java standsrds such as
beans and servlets.  I've been wondering for a while (for real, no
flamewar intended) what does (J)Ruby have that Groovy doesn't?

On a similar note, I keep hearing a lot of different things about
Sun/Java6 supporting different scripting languages as the 'standard.'
Groovy has a JSR, J6SE will ship with Rhino (which is understandable,
I guess, since it's more lightweight than Groovy).  I heard something
about a PHP reference implementation on the Java scripting API, and
then BeanShell has a JSR as well.

Can someone straighten me out here?

Thanks.
-Tom


On 9/7/06, John Wilson <tug@...> wrote:

> http://headius.blogspot.com/2006/09/jruby-steps-into-sun.html
>
> Congratulations to our Hausmates:)
>
>
> John Wilson
> The Wilson Partnership
> web http://www.wilson.co.uk
> blog http://eek.ook.org
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from this list please visit:
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>     http://xircles.codehaus.org/manage_email
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[Jochen Theodorou]

Tom Nichols schrieb:

> Not to bash JRuby, but has Sun shown any 'official' support to the
> Groovy project?  I would have thought Groovy has a lot more potential
> in terms of interoperability, since it reuses Java standsrds such as
> beans and servlets.  I've been wondering for a while (for real, no
> flamewar intended) what does (J)Ruby have that Groovy doesn't?
>
> On a similar note, I keep hearing a lot of different things about
> Sun/Java6 supporting different scripting languages as the 'standard.'
> Groovy has a JSR, J6SE will ship with Rhino (which is understandable,
> I guess, since it's more lightweight than Groovy).  I heard something
> about a PHP reference implementation on the Java scripting API, and
> then BeanShell has a JSR as well.
>
> Can someone straighten me out here?

my last information was, that Sun doesn't want to support any of these
officially to not to side with any of them and make the others angry...

Now that looks like a lie to me. Ok, they decided different.

I see also negative effects for groovy, because which company should
support Beanshell or Groovy now, when Sun is putting their attention on
JRuby... Or to say it different... what should I answer a CEO when I am
asking for financial support, when he asks me why he should support
Groovy, when Sun does support JRuby? I really don't know what I should
say here :(

bye blackdrag

--
Jochen Theodorou
Groovy Tech Lead
http://blackdragsview.blogspot.com/

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[Vladimir Olenin]

I think Sun might not want to support a very promising competitor. In my
opinion, BeanShell and the such are just 'add-ons' on top of Java API.
Groovy is pretty much language in its own rights with its own SDK. Isn't
Groovy the only language that has its own compiler? (source code to
bytecode, without intermediate Java files)

-----Original Message-----
From: Tom Nichols [mailto:tmnichols@...]
Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2006 2:36 PM
To: user@...
Subject: Re: [groovy-user] Sun begins to fund JVM scripting languages

Not to bash JRuby, but has Sun shown any 'official' support to the
Groovy project?  I would have thought Groovy has a lot more potential in
terms of interoperability, since it reuses Java standsrds such as beans
and servlets.  I've been wondering for a while (for real, no flamewar
intended) what does (J)Ruby have that Groovy doesn't?

On a similar note, I keep hearing a lot of different things about
Sun/Java6 supporting different scripting languages as the 'standard.'
Groovy has a JSR, J6SE will ship with Rhino (which is understandable, I
guess, since it's more lightweight than Groovy).  I heard something
about a PHP reference implementation on the Java scripting API, and then
BeanShell has a JSR as well.

Can someone straighten me out here?

Thanks.
-Tom


On 9/7/06, John Wilson <tug@...> wrote:

> http://headius.blogspot.com/2006/09/jruby-steps-into-sun.html
>
> Congratulations to our Hausmates:)
>
>
> John Wilson
> The Wilson Partnership
> web http://www.wilson.co.uk
> blog http://eek.ook.org
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from this list please visit:
>
>     http://xircles.codehaus.org/manage_email
>
>

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[Russel Winder]

There are many viewpoints on this news:

1.  It is a snub to Groovy and BeanShell -- Sun are making it clear that
Java and JRuby are the languages of choice.

2.  It is a vote of confidence in Groovy and BeanShell -- Sun, in their
attempt to ensure that the JVM is the only processor in the universe
feel that Groovy and BeanShell are doing fine and that others need
support.

3.  It is an attempt to stop Ruby and especially Ruby on Rails gaining
any traction and hitting Sun's Java EE licence revenue -- by making the
whole Ruby community forget about a Ruby virtual machine and stay with
interpretation and JVM hosting, Sun revenues will remain high.

4.  The JRuby guys managed to con Sun into funding their salaries for a
while so they can avoid `real work' -- good on them I wish I could do
something like that.

5.  The Groovy team has failed to get an advocate within the Sun
hierarchy and so has simply lost out because it has focused on technical
issue at the expense of political issues -- and documentation :-)

. . .

There are many more possible interpretations.  For those interested read
`The Prince' by Niccolo Machiavelli -- a most misunderstood and
misrepresented author.
--
Russel.
====================================================
Dr Russel Winder                [phone]
41 Buckmaster Road              [phone]
London SW11 1EN, UK             russel@...

[Michael Baehr-2]

That must feel like a low blow, but don't get discouraged!

But definitely Groovy needs a lobby in the US! Groovy evangelist anyone?

On 9/7/06, Jochen Theodorou <blackdrag@...> wrote:

> Tom Nichols schrieb:
> > Not to bash JRuby, but has Sun shown any 'official' support to the
> > Groovy project?  I would have thought Groovy has a lot more potential
> > in terms of interoperability, since it reuses Java standsrds such as
> > beans and servlets.  I've been wondering for a while (for real, no
> > flamewar intended) what does (J)Ruby have that Groovy doesn't?
> >
> > On a similar note, I keep hearing a lot of different things about
> > Sun/Java6 supporting different scripting languages as the 'standard.'
> > Groovy has a JSR, J6SE will ship with Rhino (which is understandable,
> > I guess, since it's more lightweight than Groovy).  I heard something
> > about a PHP reference implementation on the Java scripting API, and
> > then BeanShell has a JSR as well.
> >
> > Can someone straighten me out here?
>
> my last information was, that Sun doesn't want to support any of these
> officially to not to side with any of them and make the others angry...
>
> Now that looks like a lie to me. Ok, they decided different.
>
> I see also negative effects for groovy, because which company should
> support Beanshell or Groovy now, when Sun is putting their attention on
> JRuby... Or to say it different... what should I answer a CEO when I am
> asking for financial support, when he asks me why he should support
> Groovy, when Sun does support JRuby? I really don't know what I should
> say here :(
>
> bye blackdrag
>
> --
> Jochen Theodorou
> Groovy Tech Lead
> http://blackdragsview.blogspot.com/
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from this list please visit:
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[Jochen Theodorou]

Michael Baehr schrieb:
> That must feel like a low blow, but don't get discouraged!
>
> But definitely Groovy needs a lobby in the US! Groovy evangelist anyone?

lobby in the US... yes.. well... not so easy from europe. Most of the
developers are from europe. To be evangelist in the US you need money
for traveling and a job allowing you to do that. But you won't even get
a H class visa these days, because they have already given out all for
this year.

Additionally JRuby gets some of the momentum of the RoR hype.

If you have hints on how to create a lobby in the US please tell us!

bye blackdrag

--
Jochen Theodorou
Groovy Tech Lead
http://blackdragsview.blogspot.com/

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[glaforge]

There's a follow-up on Tim Bray's blog:
http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/200x/2006/09/07/JRuby-guys

On 9/7/06, John Wilson <tug@...> wrote:

> http://headius.blogspot.com/2006/09/jruby-steps-into-sun.html
>
> Congratulations to our Hausmates:)
>
>
> John Wilson
> The Wilson Partnership
> web http://www.wilson.co.uk
> blog http://eek.ook.org
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from this list please visit:
>
>     http://xircles.codehaus.org/manage_email
>
>

--
Guillaume Laforge
Groovy Project Manager
http://glaforge.free.fr/blog/groovy

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[Scott Hickey-3]

--- Jochen Theodorou <blackdrag@...> wrote:
snip
> I see also negative effects for groovy, because
> which company should
> support Beanshell or Groovy now, when Sun is putting
> their attention on
> JRuby...

Personally, from the perspective of a tech lead on
business app, I think all of the attention on being
directed at alternatives to Java on the JVM will only
help all of the languages in being adopted. It
legitimitizes (is that word?) the practice of running
other languages on top of the JVM, making it an easier
sell.

>Or to say it different... what should I
> answer a CEO when I am
> asking for financial support, when he asks me why he
> should support
> Groovy, when Sun does support JRuby? I really don't
> know what I should
> say here :(
>
> bye blackdrag

The conciseness, readability, peformance, etc... of
BeanShell, JRuby, Ruby, and Groovy are not identical.
All things being equal, Sun suppport of JRuby might
make a difference. But in real world project, things
are never equal. At least for my project, comparing
languages side by side with real application spoke
volumes. We read code much more often that we write
it. To my eye, Groovy easily stood out as the *best*
code noise reducer.

For example, the last time I looked (and believe me, I
looked!), you still had to *explicitly* declare
numbers to be BigDecimal in JRuby/Ruby/Python/Jython.
This is problematic. I attended an EJB3 demo where the
examples were defining money as floats or doubles. I
can't think of a single *business* property where it's
ok to use float or double.

Another simple example, constructors. I don't bother
with them in Groovy - at all. Even though parameters
may be optional in Ruby, the fact that I don't have
specify in the class in advance what properties I
might want to initialize when I create a new object is
huge. In the abstract, it doesn't sound like much. In
practice, it makes a big difference.

It's politically correct for those involved with the
project not flame other languages. But that doesn't
mean that there aren't important differences that show
up in non-trivial application code. For me, in
practice with a large code base, its the sum of these
differences that make Groovy stand out.

Having been a speaker and an attendee at various
Groovy presentations, I believe there are three things
that are necessary for broader Groovy adoption and
they have nothing to do with Sun:

1. finish Release 1.0
2. comprehensive docs
3. implement code complete in the IDE plugins



Scott

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[tugwilson]

On 7 Sep 2006, at 20:51, Michael Baehr wrote:

> That must feel like a low blow, but don't get discouraged!
>
> But definitely Groovy needs a lobby in the US! Groovy evangelist  
> anyone?


I don't feel it's a low blow at all.

JRuby is a two man operation which has no control over the language  
spec. Sun's sponsorship of JRuby gives Sun no control over the  
language at all.

The effect is just to, hopefully, help he progress of JRuby. This is  
not a zero sum game. To a large extent a boost to one JVM scripting  
language is a boost to all.

Groovy is different:

We have complete control over the language spec - see the big threads  
today on groovy-dev for evidence of that:)

We are have a lager community of committers, some of whom really do  
not want to work for Sun Microsystems (no disrespect intended to Sun)

We are a lot further down the path of producing a first rate  
implementation (I think we have done amazingly well in the time we  
have been working and we have real world mission critical  
applications written in Groovy)

We have an active and very impressive set of projects which rely on  
Groovy - step forward the Grails crew!

So, in the sprit that the Groovy project has always had, of  
respecting and encouraging "competitors" I think it's very welome  
news that Sun is spending money on Dynamic languages for the JVM:)



John Wilson
The Wilson Partnership
web http://www.wilson.co.uk
blog http://eek.ook.org



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[Michael Baehr-2]

That's exactly the problem - Groovy is mostly an European thing!

I think the Americans invented the "not invented here" syndrome ...

By the way, I'm German, but l live a little bit closer to the US - in
Jamaica, to be exact.

On 9/7/06, Jochen Theodorou <blackdrag@...> wrote:

> Michael Baehr schrieb:
> > That must feel like a low blow, but don't get discouraged!
> >
> > But definitely Groovy needs a lobby in the US! Groovy evangelist anyone?
>
> lobby in the US... yes.. well... not so easy from europe. Most of the
> developers are from europe. To be evangelist in the US you need money
> for traveling and a job allowing you to do that. But you won't even get
> a H class visa these days, because they have already given out all for
> this year.
>
> Additionally JRuby gets some of the momentum of the RoR hype.
>
> If you have hints on how to create a lobby in the US please tell us!
>
> bye blackdrag
>
> --
> Jochen Theodorou
> Groovy Tech Lead
> http://blackdragsview.blogspot.com/
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from this list please visit:
>
>     http://xircles.codehaus.org/manage_email
>
>

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[tugwilson]

On 7 Sep 2006, at 21:09, Guillaume Laforge wrote:

> There's a follow-up on Tim Bray's blog:
> http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/200x/2006/09/07/JRuby-guys

We need to enlighten Tim a bit (he's a man I admire greatly but he  
needs to get out more!).

Does somebody fancy doing a groovy version of APE http://
www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/200x/2006/08/17/JRuby


John Wilson
The Wilson Partnership
web http://www.wilson.co.uk
blog http://eek.ook.org



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[Jochen Theodorou]

Scott Hickey schrieb:

> --- Jochen Theodorou <blackdrag@...> wrote:
> snip
>> I see also negative effects for groovy, because
>> which company should
>> support Beanshell or Groovy now, when Sun is putting
>> their attention on
>> JRuby...
>
> Personally, from the perspective of a tech lead on
> business app, I think all of the attention on being
> directed at alternatives to Java on the JVM will only
> help all of the languages in being adopted. It
> legitimitizes (is that word?) the practice of running
> other languages on top of the JVM, making it an easier
> sell.

of course any infrastructure the give JRuby would also help us. If they
efficiently solve their stack trace problem, we can do much more in
groovy. But it is not about the possibility of developing Groovy, it is
about politics and advertisement.

>> Or to say it different... what should I
>> answer a CEO when I am
>> asking for financial support, when he asks me why he
>> should support
>> Groovy, when Sun does support JRuby? I really don't
>> know what I should
>> say here :(
>
> The conciseness, readability, peformance, etc... of
> BeanShell, JRuby, Ruby, and Groovy are not identical.
> All things being equal, Sun suppport of JRuby might
> make a difference. But in real world project, things
> are never equal. At least for my project, comparing
> languages side by side with real application spoke
> volumes. We read code much more often that we write
> it. To my eye, Groovy easily stood out as the *best*
> code noise reducer.

sure, I would say that too. But there are also practical problems. With
Sun as employer they can work all other the world. it is not problem for
a Global Player to transfer their people. But getting a groovy developer
in the US is currently a problem.

> For example, the last time I looked (and believe me, I
> looked!), you still had to *explicitly* declare
> numbers to be BigDecimal in JRuby/Ruby/Python/Jython.
> This is problematic. I attended an EJB3 demo where the
> examples were defining money as floats or doubles. I
> can't think of a single *business* property where it's
> ok to use float or double.

hehe I wouldn't take an insurance form a company using floats or doubles ;)

> Another simple example, constructors. I don't bother
> with them in Groovy - at all. Even though parameters
> may be optional in Ruby, the fact that I don't have
> specify in the class in advance what properties I
> might want to initialize when I create a new object is
> huge. In the abstract, it doesn't sound like much. In
> practice, it makes a big difference.

I usually don't write constructors in Groovy, no need for it.

> It's politically correct for those involved with the
> project not flame other languages. But that doesn't
> mean that there aren't important differences that show
> up in non-trivial application code. For me, in
> practice with a large code base, its the sum of these
> differences that make Groovy stand out.
>
> Having been a speaker and an attendee at various
> Groovy presentations, I believe there are three things
> that are necessary for broader Groovy adoption and
> they have nothing to do with Sun:
>
> 1. finish Release 1.0
> 2. comprehensive docs
> 3. implement code complete in the IDE plugins

The problem is development time. If we had only 1 full time developer
for the core we could have groovy 1.0 out already. But we do not have.
And finding someone giving you a job to develop groovy is not easy. And
here comes Sun into play, and my question of the CEO. If Sun does so
gratefully fund JRuby, why should anyone else help Groovy? CEOs tend to
not to look at the joy of their developers. They ask: What does Groovy
for my company? And depending on the CEO that can be really problematic
to answer.

I am searching for arguments here. Of course I can tell them about
shorter code, about doing more in less time, about being able to better
express waht you want to say, about the extremly good integration in the
JVM. But you have to argue against static typing and refactoring
support. And if you tell them, that you can use Groovy for the
prototypes and later change the critical parts into Java without the nee
to change all and with the overall ability to make the prototype in a
very short time... they simply ask you why Java can't do this given the
good tools and such? When I tell them that static typing doesn't allow
closures and builders and that closures help to get a better desing of
the classes and builders allow DSLs, even hirarchic ones... Then they
often tell you that XML is already good, that it allows checks using the
schema or whatever and closures are just not important. And if Java gets
closures I might not be able to use them as argument at all. And much
more....

Sometimes it is like running against a wall... I learned that it is much
more easy to get developers on your side. Programming in groovy is much
more fun, than Java. I am even able to programm without IDE again. I
can't imangine to program Java without IDE. Or to say it short: I really
enjoy programming in Groovy, much more than in Java.

But politics is really not my case it seems.

bye blackdrag

--
Jochen Theodorou
Groovy Tech Lead
http://blackdragsview.blogspot.com/

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[Michael Baehr-2]

Ok, a wild idea - if Sun can sponsor the JRuby developers, why can't
the Groovy community sponsor the Groovy developers?


On 9/7/06, Jochen Theodorou <blackdrag@...> wrote:

> Michael Baehr schrieb:
> > That must feel like a low blow, but don't get discouraged!
> >
> > But definitely Groovy needs a lobby in the US! Groovy evangelist anyone?
>
> lobby in the US... yes.. well... not so easy from europe. Most of the
> developers are from europe. To be evangelist in the US you need money
> for traveling and a job allowing you to do that. But you won't even get
> a H class visa these days, because they have already given out all for
> this year.
>
> Additionally JRuby gets some of the momentum of the RoR hype.
>
> If you have hints on how to create a lobby in the US please tell us!
>
> bye blackdrag
>
> --
> Jochen Theodorou
> Groovy Tech Lead
> http://blackdragsview.blogspot.com/
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from this list please visit:
>
>     http://xircles.codehaus.org/manage_email
>
>

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[Eric Brown-13]

1. I really have high hopes for groovy. But I don't think it has the  
popularity or user-base of ruby and python yet. Correct me if I'm wrong.

2. Microsoft is embracing python for .net.

3. jython is way behind cpython (unlike jruby). (cpython is at 2.5  
while jython is still at 2.2-2.3) And it is my understanding that  
Python's creator, Guido, has indicated he thinks ironpython has much  
more performance potential than the way jython was written. That's  
just the view I've heard and I hope it is misinformed as I use jython  
all the time for testing my java stuff and find it plenty fast enough  
as an interpreter. (Though starting it with a large classpath is  
painfully slow.) jython is moving forward, but I don't think it has  
dedicated individuals like ironpython (.net/employed by microsoft)  
and jruby (employed by sun).

4. Sun has already implemented visualbasic. But I can't imagine java/
python/ruby/groovy developers moving to visualbasic (or even  
javascript) on top of java just to get dynamic languages. Python,  
ruby and groovy are interesting languages for reasons I have trouble  
explaining. (Maybe they're just fun?)

5. One thing that keeps me in jython and jirb is a decent interpreter  
with readline support. I don't like the way groovy or beanshell  
require 'go' or whatever to run what was recently typed in. In fact,  
I wish ipython could run jython -- that's the nicest interpreter  
environment I've seen. Please let me know if I'm just missing the  
boat on some groovy or beanshell interpreter environment I don't know  
about.

6. Rails is important and supporting jruby for that is interesting.  
Especially if we can eventually use groovy for rails classes.

7. I believe the jruby folks are looking to generate byte-codes in  
some instances. I don't really know though and groovy is certainly  
ahead there.

Cheers,
Eric


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[Tom Nichols]

I agree with John, in the sense that it's good to see dynamic
languages in general getting more formal support.

It seems that the .NET platform has had better dynamic support (they
have a 'dynamicMethod', which I think is equivalent to Java's proposed
'invokeDynamic').  I think formal support of dynamic languages is only
going to become more important both in the enterprise space, and to
attract new programmers

-Tom.

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[Jochen Theodorou]

Eric Brown schrieb:
> 1. I really have high hopes for groovy. But I don't think it has the
> popularity or user-base of ruby and python yet. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Among Java developers it is gaining more and more of a community. Just
look at the Java conferences and how many tracks are about JRuby,
Beanshell and Groovy.

> 2. Microsoft is embracing python for .net.
>
> 3. jython is way behind cpython (unlike jruby). (cpython is at 2.5 while
> jython is still at 2.2-2.3) And it is my understanding that Python's
> creator, Guido, has indicated he thinks ironpython has much more
> performance potential than the way jython was written. That's just the
> view I've heard and I hope it is misinformed as I use jython all the
> time for testing my java stuff and find it plenty fast enough as an
> interpreter.

yes that is the same I heard.

 > (Though starting it with a large classpath is painfully
> slow.) jython is moving forward, but I don't think it has dedicated
> individuals like ironpython (.net/employed by microsoft) and jruby
> (employed by sun).

slowly moving forward is not enough I think.

> 4. Sun has already implemented visualbasic. But I can't imagine
> java/python/ruby/groovy developers moving to visualbasic (or even
> javascript) on top of java just to get dynamic languages. Python, ruby
> and groovy are interesting languages for reasons I have trouble
> explaining. (Maybe they're just fun?)

It is easy to argument for Java against C and such.. the only reason I
say that makes it more easy to argument for JRuby than Groovy is the
community and the hype. Try to explain a CEO why to use Python instead
of Ruby... I don't think that this is an easy task.

> 5. One thing that keeps me in jython and jirb is a decent interpreter
> with readline support. I don't like the way groovy or beanshell require
> 'go' or whatever to run what was recently typed in. In fact, I wish
> ipython could run jython -- that's the nicest interpreter environment
> I've seen. Please let me know if I'm just missing the boat on some
> groovy or beanshell interpreter environment I don't know about.

We plan to remove the go statement since a long time. Sadly we where
unable to do that... lack of development time. the funny thing is, that
in 90% of all cases I think: " ahh... that's easy to implement, just to
this and that it will work" And it really is easy. Most of the code in
Groovy is well structure and understandable. But still you need to get
into this, still you need someone knowing the internals, still you need
time to do the job... an many people are afraid of the learning curve
needed to get into the copebase. On the other hand I am unsure about how
to make it more easy for people. A good documentation is as much work as
the code itself.

> 6. Rails is important and supporting jruby for that is interesting.
> Especially if we can eventually use groovy for rails classes.
>
> 7. I believe the jruby folks are looking to generate byte-codes in some
> instances. I don't really know though and groovy is certainly ahead there.

Yes, this might come inot play. In fact they have to do this if they
want to integrated JRuby more.

bye blackdrag

--
Jochen Theodorou
Groovy Tech Lead
http://blackdragsview.blogspot.com/

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[tugwilson]

On 7 Sep 2006, at 21:56, Eric Brown wrote:

> 1. I really have high hopes for groovy. But I don't think it has  
> the popularity or user-base of ruby and python yet. Correct me if  
> I'm wrong.

You are right, but if you substitute JRuby and Jython for Ruby and  
Python I would suggest that you are wrong:)

Dynamic languages on the JVM are rather exotic - The SUN folks should  
hang their head in shame that this is so. It's still not clear if  
transplanting languages like Ruby or Python is will be effective (I  
have my doubts) or if JVM specific languages like beanshell, pnuts or  
Groovy will be a more effective approach (you can guess my view!)


John Wilson
The Wilson Partnership
web http://www.wilson.co.uk
blog http://eek.ook.org



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[Edward Povazan]

Is it such a wild idea? I was just thinking about certain commercial projects
that 'sold' themselves into open source (I think $100k released Blender, there
are other examples out there).
But how big is the Groovy community? And how many big player are there for whom
a few thousand dollars is no big deal? Then again, the smaller amounts work too
if there are enough of us :)

-Ed

Michael Baehr wrote:

> Ok, a wild idea - if Sun can sponsor the JRuby developers, why can't
> the Groovy community sponsor the Groovy developers?
>
>
> On 9/7/06, Jochen Theodorou <blackdrag@...> wrote:
>> Michael Baehr schrieb:
>> > That must feel like a low blow, but don't get discouraged!
>> >
>> > But definitely Groovy needs a lobby in the US! Groovy evangelist
>> anyone?
>>
>> lobby in the US... yes.. well... not so easy from europe. Most of the
>> developers are from europe. To be evangelist in the US you need money
>> for traveling and a job allowing you to do that. But you won't even get
>> a H class visa these days, because they have already given out all for
>> this year.
>>
>> Additionally JRuby gets some of the momentum of the RoR hype.
>>
>> If you have hints on how to create a lobby in the US please tell us!
>>
>> bye blackdrag
>>
>> --
>> Jochen Theodorou
>> Groovy Tech Lead
>> http://blackdragsview.blogspot.com/
>>
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[Cédric Beust ♔-2]

Guys, I think you're reading way too much into this.

Tim likes the language and the product and he decided to hire the two developers.  That's it.  End of story.

Knowing how Sun works, I'm pretty sure there is nothing more to it, and it's certainly no sign that Sun is putting more weight behind Ruby or JRuby.

Having said that, the fact the it's taking so long to Groovy to come up with a 1.0 release has certainly contributed to making it look like a toy project to a lot of people.

--
Cedric