The arrow of time is the easiest computational direction for life in the manifold

[Alberto G. Corona]

Hi,
THis is my third post in this group. The other three were about four
years ago, when this list was allocated in eskimo.org. Here an then I
knew Bruno and some others. In the meantime,  I remained deeply
interested in life, the universe and everythng, and this is literal,
because I remained convinced that life, and the phenomenon that
generates it, Evolution with Natural Selection, is the key to
understand the concrete nature of the mathematical universe in which
we live.  For this reason I have been learning about evolution, and
deeply related phenomena such are the real nature of enthropy and
computation.

Now I thing that I have my puzzle starting to be completed. It is not
all of my own. I just mix pieces, but I think that no one has
formulated it before in clear terms by mixing these pieces togeter.
Let me share something I wrote not much time ago. Sorry for the
extension:

http://ilevolucionista.blogspot.com/2008/09/entrophy-arrow-of-time-and-life.html

The Arrow of time is, at last, a common subjective experience
experimented by living beings. According with the laws of physics,
time is just a dimension.. or not even that . The solutions of the
equations of General Relativity are cuasy arbitrary four dimensional
manifolds.where time is just a local dimension. That is, can be
approximately suppossed that in a certain point, the time  could be
considered as a dimension, but the direction of this dimension can
change from point to point. Superstring theory suggest even more
bizarre 11-dimensional, geometrical figures. No intuition about the
arrow of time or any other subjective experience can be extracted from
phisical theories.

The only natural law that lthat links with subjective experience is
the anthropic principle applied to life in general. Life imposes
strong restrictions in the particular form that our Universe (or
portion of Universe) has in the infinite sea of optional solutions of
General Relativity and String Theory. These restrictions also applies
to the initial conditions. of this universe. The observed increase of
entropy with time in our visible universe means that it started with a
very improbable configuration. But this reasoning is circular: If we
try to elucidate what really is the arrow of time, we can not use
concepts that presupose a certain direction of the arrow of time !!

The quesition, reformulated in strict physical terms is as such: In
the four or eleven-dimensional manifold described by the equations of
relativty or the superstring theory respectively, why our lifes
follows a line from less to more probable configurations of matter,
that is, from less to more entrophy, that is, from less microstates to
more microstates for each observable state?. Why ?

This last view in terms of micro-states is the key for the
explanation: causes are in the side of less microstates. Effects are
in the side of more microstates, because there are less causes than
effects. In the other side, life is all about prediction of the
future. An organism can not make use of the environment for its own
ends if he can not predict what will follow at the chemical,
biological, instinctive or rational levels. Computationally, it is
much more easy to simulate the evolution of a system where entrophy
increse than in the opposite direction. The precision demanded for a
reverse simulation is much higuer: The calculus of the fragmentation
of a glass is not very difficult. Essentially, the results are not
very different using a precission or another. But a reverse simuation
from a broken glass never will reach the re-composition of the glass,
no matter how precise the measure of the real position of the pieces
from a real case were introduced in the simulation.

But the fact is that in our univese, glasses do recompose themselves,
the flame of the candles do recombines liberating oxygen and make grow
the candle, objects lighter than water sink. Why? because these events
exist in our space time; Just go in the reverse time dimension in our
space-time manifold  to see them. The laws of physics permits them.
They are just reversible chemical reactions, reversible object
collisions at the particle or macroscopic level.

In terms of our perception of time, the outcomes we see happens just
because they are cuasi-infinitely probable and the reverse
counterparts, cuasi infinitely improbalbe. But, that is also an
illlusion of the arrow of time, because , In terms of time-agnostic
spacetime manifold reasoning, our life vector in space-time go along
the increase of entrophy, not the other way around. That is: the
outcomes of probability laws are a consequience of our trajectory in
space time. Why our life follow this direction?. The reason is
computational, as I said before.

The essence of life is to identify risks and opportunities, that is,
to identify causes to react accordingly in order to achive efffects
that permit survival and reproduction, while maintaining the internal
disorder controlled. This happens at all levels of life. From the
chemical to the neuronal level, the living beings look at the present
to predict the effects in the phisical direction of entropy increase.
life can not operate in other but in such direction, because this is
the computable direction.

Computation is done at all levels. chemically a cell computes by
generating proteins triggered by an stimulus, these proteins will aid
the cell to cope with what will come nest, either engulf food in the
protoplasma and diggest it or to expell toxins to scape from a
predator. For this reason life chooses the esasy path in the universe-
manifold: because computationally it is easier.

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[Stathis Papaioannou-2]

2009/1/24 Alberto G.Corona <agocorona@...>:

> But the fact is that in our univese, glasses do recompose themselves,
> the flame of the candles do recombines liberating oxygen and make grow
> the candle, objects lighter than water sink. Why? because these events
> exist in our space time; Just go in the reverse time dimension in our
> space-time manifold  to see them. The laws of physics permits them.
> They are just reversible chemical reactions, reversible object
> collisions at the particle or macroscopic level.
>
> In terms of our perception of time, the outcomes we see happens just
> because they are cuasi-infinitely probable and the reverse
> counterparts, cuasi infinitely improbalbe. But, that is also an
> illlusion of the arrow of time, because , In terms of time-agnostic
> spacetime manifold reasoning, our life vector in space-time go along
> the increase of entrophy, not the other way around. That is: the
> outcomes of probability laws are a consequience of our trajectory in
> space time. Why our life follow this direction?. The reason is
> computational, as I said before.

The question is often asked, why does time seem to progress in the
increasing entropy direction? But if time were in fact progressing in
the decreasing entropy direction, we would know no different. For
example, if we were living in a simulation where 2009 is run first and
2008 is run second according to an external clock, we would not be
able to tell from within the simulation. The real arrow of time
question should be: why does entropy increase in the same direction in
every observed part of the universe? For only if the glass shattering
occurred in a direction different to that of the mind of the observer
would something unusual be noticed.


--
Stathis Papaioannou

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[Brent Meeker-2]

Stathis Papaioannou wrote:

> 2009/1/24 Alberto G.Corona <agocorona@...>:
>
>> But the fact is that in our univese, glasses do recompose themselves,
>> the flame of the candles do recombines liberating oxygen and make grow
>> the candle, objects lighter than water sink. Why? because these events
>> exist in our space time; Just go in the reverse time dimension in our
>> space-time manifold  to see them. The laws of physics permits them.
>> They are just reversible chemical reactions, reversible object
>> collisions at the particle or macroscopic level.
>>
>> In terms of our perception of time, the outcomes we see happens just
>> because they are cuasi-infinitely probable and the reverse
>> counterparts, cuasi infinitely improbalbe. But, that is also an
>> illlusion of the arrow of time, because , In terms of time-agnostic
>> spacetime manifold reasoning, our life vector in space-time go along
>> the increase of entrophy, not the other way around. That is: the
>> outcomes of probability laws are a consequience of our trajectory in
>> space time. Why our life follow this direction?. The reason is
>> computational, as I said before.
>
> The question is often asked, why does time seem to progress in the
> increasing entropy direction? But if time were in fact progressing in
> the decreasing entropy direction, we would know no different. For
> example, if we were living in a simulation where 2009 is run first and
> 2008 is run second according to an external clock, we would not be
> able to tell from within the simulation. The real arrow of time
> question should be: why does entropy increase in the same direction in
> every observed part of the universe?

Right.  It's generally thought that the direction of increasing entropy is
defined by the expansion of the universe since the expansion increases the
available states for matter.  But it's hard to show that this must also
determine the radiation arrow of time.

But at the micro-level of QM there is presumably no change in entropy, the
evolution is unitary.  So then the question becomes: Why the approximately
classical world, in which the coarse-gained entropy does increase?

Brent

>For only if the glass shattering
> occurred in a direction different to that of the mind of the observer
> would something unusual be noticed.
>
>


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[Jesse Mazer]

Some parts of this message have been removed. Learn more about Nabble's security policy.

>
> Right. It's generally thought that the direction of increasing entropy is
> defined by the expansion of the universe since the expansion increases the
> available states for matter. But it's hard to show that this must also
> determine the radiation arrow of time.

On the contrary, no physicist I have seen talking about the arrow of time believes that it's defined by the direction of expansion--in fact, many of them make a point of saying that idea doesn't work because if the universe is sufficiently dense that it begins to contract again at some point in the future, there's no reason to expect the arrow of time to suddenly reverse in the contracting phase.

Jesse

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[Alberto G. Corona]

> The question is often asked, why does time seem to progress in the
> increasing entropy direction? But if time were in fact progressing in
> the decreasing entropy direction, we would know no different. For
> example, if we were living in a simulation where 2009 is run first and
> 2008 is run second

The key here is that neiter our universe is simulated nor time has
meaning outside our psichology. There are simulaton, but this
simulation is carried out  by us, the living beings. We are the ones
that simulate in advance the events along a direction fo the manifold
in order to advance actions for the next point in this coordinate.
Why? because we need to planify furter actions in order to grow and
reproduce in succesive progression in this direction. This progression
along this direction is what we perceive as time.

Because living beings are the ones that must simulate in advance what
comes next, at the chemical, instinctive, rational level, this
iimposes very serious computational restrictions to the direction of
time. Simply, the reverse simulation , along the enthropy increase
demands infinite or near infinite resources computational resources.
It is also possible simulate in any lateral direction, any direction
in the manifold, but I hipotesize that they are also very heavy to
calculate. Thinking in terms of Natural Selection: The living beings
that tried to progress along other directions are extinct, They needed
too much computational resources!!!. Or even never appeared in the
first place!.

For this reason, the perception of time, enthrophy and probability,
and the initial conditions of the universe are a byproduct of this
restriction of computability in living beiings.

 living beings are like fractals that grow, reproduce and die along
the temporal coordinate. There are two ways to express a trajectory ,
and here I use the Max Tegmark coined frog/bird view; The frog view is
time dependent and uses the input of the previus step, wich is the
view of computers, living beings and us, and the other is the bird
view that contemplates the manifold or part of a manifold  . The first
type of beings strugle for anticipating the next step,. The second see
the enlarged mandelbrot figure of all our life, and this figure is
part of the manifold described maybe by a single formula The M formula
or whatever may be the grand unification theory.

This is not so difficult to understand: This is the difference between
the expression of a integral in mathematical terms versus the step
that a computer must perform along the integrration coordinate to
calculate its numerical value.



>according to an external clock, we would not be
> able to tell from within the simulation. The real arrow of time
> question should be: why does entropy increase in the same direction in
> every observed part of the universe? For only if the glass shattering
> occurred in a direction different to that of the mind of the observer
> would something unusual be noticed.
>
> --
> Stathis Papaioannou
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[Alberto G. Corona]

Brent:

I tried to clarify my point of view  in my previous response. This is
my answer to these questions.

On Jan 25, 5:53 am, Brent Meeker <meeke...@...> wrote:

> Stathis Papaioannou wrote:
> > 2009/1/24 Alberto G.Corona <agocor...@...>:
>
> >> But the fact is that in our univese, glasses do recompose themselves,
> >> the flame of the candles do recombines liberating oxygen and make grow
> >> the candle, objects lighter than water sink. Why? because these events
> >> exist in our space time; Just go in the reverse time dimension in our
> >> space-time manifold  to see them. The laws of physics permits them.
> >> They are just reversible chemical reactions, reversible object
> >> collisions at the particle or macroscopic level.
>
> >> In terms of our perception of time, the outcomes we see happens just
> >> because they are cuasi-infinitely probable and the reverse
> >> counterparts, cuasi infinitely improbalbe. But, that is also an
> >> illlusion of the arrow of time, because , In terms of time-agnostic
> >> spacetime manifold reasoning, our life vector in space-time go along
> >> the increase of entrophy, not the other way around. That is: the
> >> outcomes of probability laws are a consequience of our trajectory in
> >> space time. Why our life follow this direction?. The reason is
> >> computational, as I said before.
>
> > The question is often asked, why does time seem to progress in the
> > increasing entropy direction? But if time were in fact progressing in
> > the decreasing entropy direction, we would know no different. For
> > example, if we were living in a simulation where 2009 is run first and
> > 2008 is run second according to an external clock, we would not be
> > able to tell from within the simulation. The real arrow of time
> > question should be: why does entropy increase in the same direction in
> > every observed part of the universe?
>
> Right.  It's generally thought that the direction of increasing entropy is
> defined by the expansion of the universe since the expansion increases the
> available states for matter.  But it's hard to show that this must also
> determine the radiation arrow of time.
>
> But at the micro-level of QM there is presumably no change in entropy, the
> evolution is unitary.  So then the question becomes: Why the approximately
> classical world, in which the coarse-gained entropy does increase?
>
> Brent
>
> >For only if the glass shattering
> > occurred in a direction different to that of the mind of the observer
> > would something unusual be noticed.

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[ronaldheld]

Bruno
 Have you seen this:
V. Walsh, "A theory of magnitude:common cortical metrics of time, spce
and quantity", trends in Cognitive Sciences, 7, 483 (2003)
  This was a one reference in a  paper on time I just read today( Time
and Causation http://arxiv.org/abs/0902.0559
                              Ronald

On Jan 25, 3:02 am, "Alberto G.Corona" <agocor...@...> wrote:

> Brent:
>
> I tried to clarify my point of view  in my previous response. This is
> my answer to these questions.
>
> On Jan 25, 5:53 am, Brent Meeker <meeke...@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Stathis Papaioannou wrote:
> > > 2009/1/24 Alberto G.Corona <agocor...@...>:
>
> > >> But the fact is that in our univese, glasses do recompose themselves,
> > >> the flame of the candles do recombines liberating oxygen and make grow
> > >> the candle, objects lighter than water sink. Why? because these events
> > >> exist in our space time; Just go in the reverse time dimension in our
> > >> space-time manifold  to see them. The laws of physics permits them.
> > >> They are just reversible chemical reactions, reversible object
> > >> collisions at the particle or macroscopic level.
>
> > >> In terms of our perception of time, the outcomes we see happens just
> > >> because they are cuasi-infinitely probable and the reverse
> > >> counterparts, cuasi infinitely improbalbe. But, that is also an
> > >> illlusion of the arrow of time, because , In terms of time-agnostic
> > >> spacetime manifold reasoning, our life vector in space-time go along
> > >> the increase of entrophy, not the other way around. That is: the
> > >> outcomes of probability laws are a consequience of our trajectory in
> > >> space time. Why our life follow this direction?. The reason is
> > >> computational, as I said before.
>
> > > The question is often asked, why does time seem to progress in the
> > > increasing entropy direction? But if time were in fact progressing in
> > > the decreasing entropy direction, we would know no different. For
> > > example, if we were living in a simulation where 2009 is run first and
> > > 2008 is run second according to an external clock, we would not be
> > > able to tell from within the simulation. The real arrow of time
> > > question should be: why does entropy increase in the same direction in
> > > every observed part of the universe?
>
> > Right.  It's generally thought that the direction of increasing entropy is
> > defined by the expansion of the universe since the expansion increases the
> > available states for matter.  But it's hard to show that this must also
> > determine the radiation arrow of time.
>
> > But at the micro-level of QM there is presumably no change in entropy, the
> > evolution is unitary.  So then the question becomes: Why the approximately
> > classical world, in which the coarse-gained entropy does increase?
>
> > Brent
>
> > >For only if the glass shattering
> > > occurred in a direction different to that of the mind of the observer
> > > would something unusual be noticed.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

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[Bruno Marchal]

Ronald,

Thanks for the reference. Of course Lobo implicitly assume  
physicalism, so we cannot really built from that.

I guess you know that Gödel is the first one showing that there exist  
solutions of Einstein's GR equations with closed time loop.
Circling computations exist (trivially) in the universal deployment  
too, but they are eliminated in the ultimate measure because the set  
of such loops are countable. You can always bet you are not belonging  
to such loop. I would say (assuming comp).

Best,

Bruno

On 04 Feb 2009, at 19:25, ronaldheld wrote:

>
> Bruno
> Have you seen this:
> V. Walsh, "A theory of magnitude:common cortical metrics of time, spce
> and quantity", trends in Cognitive Sciences, 7, 483 (2003)
>  This was a one reference in a  paper on time I just read today( Time
> and Causation http://arxiv.org/abs/0902.0559
>                              Ronald
>
> On Jan 25, 3:02 am, "Alberto G.Corona" <agocor...@...> wrote:
>> Brent:
>>
>> I tried to clarify my point of view  in my previous response. This is
>> my answer to these questions.
>>
>> On Jan 25, 5:53 am, Brent Meeker <meeke...@...> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> Stathis Papaioannou wrote:
>>>> 2009/1/24 Alberto G.Corona <agocor...@...>:
>>
>>>>> But the fact is that in our univese, glasses do recompose  
>>>>> themselves,
>>>>> the flame of the candles do recombines liberating oxygen and  
>>>>> make grow
>>>>> the candle, objects lighter than water sink. Why? because these  
>>>>> events
>>>>> exist in our space time; Just go in the reverse time dimension  
>>>>> in our
>>>>> space-time manifold  to see them. The laws of physics permits  
>>>>> them.
>>>>> They are just reversible chemical reactions, reversible object
>>>>> collisions at the particle or macroscopic level.
>>
>>>>> In terms of our perception of time, the outcomes we see happens  
>>>>> just
>>>>> because they are cuasi-infinitely probable and the reverse
>>>>> counterparts, cuasi infinitely improbalbe. But, that is also an
>>>>> illlusion of the arrow of time, because , In terms of time-
>>>>> agnostic
>>>>> spacetime manifold reasoning, our life vector in space-time go  
>>>>> along
>>>>> the increase of entrophy, not the other way around. That is: the
>>>>> outcomes of probability laws are a consequience of our  
>>>>> trajectory in
>>>>> space time. Why our life follow this direction?. The reason is
>>>>> computational, as I said before.
>>
>>>> The question is often asked, why does time seem to progress in the
>>>> increasing entropy direction? But if time were in fact  
>>>> progressing in
>>>> the decreasing entropy direction, we would know no different. For
>>>> example, if we were living in a simulation where 2009 is run  
>>>> first and
>>>> 2008 is run second according to an external clock, we would not be
>>>> able to tell from within the simulation. The real arrow of time
>>>> question should be: why does entropy increase in the same  
>>>> direction in
>>>> every observed part of the universe?
>>
>>> Right.  It's generally thought that the direction of increasing  
>>> entropy is
>>> defined by the expansion of the universe since the expansion  
>>> increases the
>>> available states for matter.  But it's hard to show that this must  
>>> also
>>> determine the radiation arrow of time.
>>
>>> But at the micro-level of QM there is presumably no change in  
>>> entropy, the
>>> evolution is unitary.  So then the question becomes: Why the  
>>> approximately
>>> classical world, in which the coarse-gained entropy does increase?
>>
>>> Brent
>>
>>>> For only if the glass shattering
>>>> occurred in a direction different to that of the mind of the  
>>>> observer
>>>> would something unusual be noticed.- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
> >

http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/




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