The water miser washing machine

[Alan B. Pearce-2]

>All the side-loaders ("Front loaders" in the UK) I have ever
>seen inside use a universal (brushed) AC motor and drive belt
>arrangement, though there may be some very modern ones that
>build the motor into the drum.

I believe LG market a washing machine in the UK, with a direct drive motor,
rather like the NZ made Fisher & Paykel ones.

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[Gerhard Fiedler]

Volker Soffel wrote:

>>> So it is $0.15/$0.046 = 3.26 times CHEAPER to heat water with gas
>>> than with electricity. Assuming electricity is 100% efficient and
>>> the gas heater is only 70%, then it is still 2.28 times cheaper to
>>> heat water using gas.
>
>> Given that a front-loader typically uses less than 20% of the water
>> that a top-loader uses (for the same cycle)... what's the outcome?
>
> Really? Where is that 20% number coming from, any references? The
> numbers I've seen are more in the range of 40% **less** water usage
> for front loaders compared to top loaders, which would mean a front
> loader uses 60% of the water of a top loader.

There is more than one factor involved. One is the washing principle. A
top loader fills up the whole drum, whereas a front loader only fills
the drum to less than a quarter. Hence the (estimated) 20% of water
consumption per wash cycle. The other is that typically top loaders
don't do more than one or at most two rinse cycles, whereas front
loaders usually have five or so. This brings the water consumption of
the front loaders up again, but those are cold cycles, so the additional
amount of water here doesn't count towards heat energy.

Gerhard
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[SME-2]

> I believe LG market a washing machine in the UK, with a direct drive motor,
> rather like the NZ made Fisher & Paykel ones.

LG just bought a ?20%? share in F&P.


  R
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[plpeter]

William "Chops" Westfield <westfw <at> mac.com> writes:
> There are also (perceived?) safety issues with gas, and it also  
> requires plumbing gas to a location that is frequently far away from  
> other gas uses in a household.  I don't think I've ever seen a gas  
> clothes dryer, although many of the places I've lived have used gas  
> for water and space heating...

Most gas safety issues are history since pilot lights were invented (precisely
for that reason). Most large installation (including laundromats) use gas fired
dryers and a common gas fired water heater (shared between all the machines).
This is a strong hint for washing machine makers who should start making
machines that connect to both cold and hot water lines and thus save on
electrical power (if the main house heating is not electrical). In fact they are
already making those but they are selling them to laundromats, hospitals, hotels
etc. I was surprised to see that the price premium of a semi-industrial coin-op
washer is quite low when compared with consumer washers with similar
characteristics. And it is a very sturdy and long-lived piece of equipment, AND
the washing cycle is much shorter because the machine does not need to load
water and heat it inside at a snail's pace using expensive electricity. Also all
the gimmicky 'green' 'holistic' 'cat sleeps on top' etc elements were missing
from the ad/marketing/sales pitch. Instead, support for over 10 years (parts and
manuals) was promised. And they were not even made in China. Unbelievable :) (as
unbelievable as the fact they are still using motor driven cam programmers which
seem to survive power glitches and occasional drenching for their rated 10 year
life)

Peter


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[Dwayne Reid]

At 11:31 AM 6/29/2009, Peter wrote:

>I was surprised to see that the price premium of a semi-industrial coin-op
>washer is quite low when compared with consumer washers with similar
>characteristics.

Can you provide the make & model of the machine that you are
describing?  Web links would be cool as well, if you have them handy.

I assume that those are particular units aren't available to me (I'm
in Canada) but it would at least let me see those units on the Web,
and perhaps find something comparable.

Our ancient top load washer still works well but it is getting
old.  I don't plan to replace it until I can't economically repair it
but its convenient to have information on suitable replacements
handy.  Yes - I fully expect our next washing machine to be a front-loader.

Thanks!

dwayne

PS - FWIW - I wind up fixing (or helping others fix) at least one
washing machine per year - usually more.  They are ALL old and all
have been easy to repair.  Specialized parts (pumps, clutches,
transmission parts) are readily available - that really surprised me
in at least a couple of cases.  The only front-load machines that I
have worked on have been Italian-made machines used in Dry-Cleaning
businesses - huge machines.  Also easy to repair!

dwayne

--
Dwayne Reid   <dwayner@...>
Trinity Electronics Systems Ltd    Edmonton, AB, CANADA
[phone] voice          [phone] fax
www.trinity-electronics.com
Custom Electronics Design and Manufacturing

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[plpeter]

Dwayne Reid <dwayner <at> planet.eon.net> writes:
> Can you provide the make & model of the machine that you are
> describing?  Web links would be cool as well, if you have them handy.

I don't remember the model but one brand that came up was "Speed Queen", and it
was front loading drum type. See:

http://www.speedqueen.com/home/about/

I am not affiliated to them in any way, and I have seen their and other NA
manufacturer's products working in laundromats in several countries, not just in
NA.

Peter




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[Chris McSweeny]

On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 6:31 PM, Peter<plpeter2006@...> wrote:
> This is a strong hint for washing machine makers who should start making
> machines that connect to both cold and hot water lines and thus save on
> electrical power (if the main house heating is not electrical).

You mean re-start, since my as I said before, my old machine had both
hot and cold fill (as they generally did back then).

Anyway, from my washing machine handbook:

"Benefits of cold fill
- Modern detergents are designed to give the best cleaning results at
low temperature. biological detergents contain enzymes which are
active between 30C and 53C giving greater results at lower
temperature.
- Cold water relaxes fabrics, whilst hot water can seal in stains.
- Improved stain removal with cold water.
- The most commonly used programme at present is 40C, which will take
on cold water even if hot and cold were available.
- You can heat the water required to finish the wash cycle, which
makes it more economical than taking water heated in a tank by an
immersion heater or gas boiler."

I'd imagine big commercial washing machines have rather different user
requirements to home ones.

Chris
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[Chris Smolinski]

>On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 6:31 PM, Peter<plpeter2006@...> wrote:
>>  This is a strong hint for washing machine makers who should start making
>>  machines that connect to both cold and hot water lines and thus save on
>>  electrical power (if the main house heating is not electrical).
>
>You mean re-start, since my as I said before, my old machine had both
>hot and cold fill (as they generally did back then).
>
>Anyway, from my washing machine handbook:
>
>"Benefits of cold fill
>- Modern detergents are designed to give the best cleaning results at
>low temperature. biological detergents contain enzymes which are
>active between 30C and 53C giving greater results at lower
>temperature.
>- Cold water relaxes fabrics, whilst hot water can seal in stains.
>- Improved stain removal with cold water.
>- The most commonly used programme at present is 40C, which will take
>on cold water even if hot and cold were available.
>- You can heat the water required to finish the wash cycle, which
>makes it more economical than taking water heated in a tank by an
>immersion heater or gas boiler."

FWIW, the water coming out of my tap is about 55F (13C).  We've tried
washing with cold water, with poor results (I can't remember if this
was with the old top loader or new front loader, maybe I should
repeat the tests).  We did find a noticeable improvement in cleaning
with the front loader (4 kids here, ages 2,4,5,6, subtract a year for
ages when we switched washers).




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---
Chris Smolinski
Black Cat Systems
http://www.blackcatsystems.com
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[Chris McSweeny]

On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 11:12 PM, Chris
Smolinski<csmolinski@...> wrote:
> FWIW, the water coming out of my tap is about 55F (13C).  We've tried
> washing with cold water, with poor results

Yes, but you don't wash with cold water with a cold fill machine. You
can heat up the cold water in the machine, you can't cool down the
hot.

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[cdenk]

Our 9 year old Maytag (USA) top loader has both hot and cold water
supplies, and a water saver. The front panel controls allow for
selection of both wash and rinse water temperatures. The water saver has
a hose (drain hose size) that goes to the bottom of the adjacent wash
tub sink. By selecting the water saver, wash water is pumped into the
sink. Wife washes cleaner items first, saves the wash water, then uses
that water for a later load of dirtier laundry like my workshop clothes.
This also saves soap, since much of the soap is still active. Hot or
cold water can be used to adjust the reused water temperature. The water
temperature settings include a hot warm and cold. The size of the load
also can be adjusted as small, medium, large, and extra large. The unit
has been very reliable, and with the flexibility of controls, we feel it
does and adequate job including overall economy.

Chris McSweeny wrote:

> On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 11:12 PM, Chris
> Smolinski<csmolinski@...> wrote:
>  
>> FWIW, the water coming out of my tap is about 55F (13C).  We've tried
>> washing with cold water, with poor results
>>    
>
> Yes, but you don't wash with cold water with a cold fill machine. You
> can heat up the cold water in the machine, you can't cool down the
> hot.
>
>  

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