Thinking about organizing a special women-oriented event

[Margarita Manterola]

Hi!

This is not exactly related to Debian, but it came up while talking to
another girl about Debian Women. I've been thinking about this for a
few days, and I'd like to receive comments or opinions from people
here.  Feel free to give me your opinion on any of the subjects below.

I'm thinking of organizing a local (i.e. in Argentina) Free Software
event, where all the speakers are women, and somehow try to advertise
this event so that it's clear that it's specially oriented towards
women, but obviously men will also be welcome at the event.  Before
you ask (this has been the most FAQ), yes, there are enough women in
the region to hold such event.

One of the conflicts that first came up when thinking about this
event, is the name.  Any descriptive names like "Women and Free
Software" sound boring and not something that would bring too many
people.  Other "fun" names like "/bin/chicas" (chicas ~ chix) might
not be too good to describe it either.  So, what I've thought up to
now (I'm still open for better suggestions) is to hold this event in
the frame of the Ada Lovelace Day, which would take care of the name,
and -I think- would also scare some trolls away. But unfortunately
does not convey the "Free" software idea.

Another conflict that came to my mind was about the content. At the
first moment, I had though it'd be nice to have a very tech oriented
event, with very high levels in the contents of the talks, to show
that women are as capable as men on delivering good technical content.
 But then, after thinking more about it, I came to realize that if we
want to reach out to women that aren't yet involved in Free Software,
we might need to include some introductory talks as well, and thus I'm
not certain any more of what kind of event it would be.

And finally, I've been thinking about getting sponsors for the event,
since it'd be nice to be able to pay the travel costs for women that
live in different cities, but then I came to realize that this event
might not be as appealing to common sponsors as the normal Free
Software events, and thus I wonder how I should approach them, or if I
should try to approach different sponsors than the common Free
Software ones.

Well that's it, I'd be delighted to hear your opinions about all this.

--
Besos,
Marga


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[Chris Jones-54]

Some parts of this message have been removed. Learn more about Nabble's security policy.

Hello Marga,

I'm not sure if this will help but I was thinking you could gain some ideas from these events:

http://www.ableconf.com/wiki/index.php?title=Women_in_technology

Grace Hopper Celebration of Women in Computing! http://gracehopper.org/2009/

Have a great Day!
Christina

 

---

"Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance you must keep moving."

 - Albert Einstein

"Life is not about waiting for the storms to pass...it's about learning how to dance in the rain."

---

From: Margarita Manterola <margamanterola@...>
To: debian-women <debian-women@...>
Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2009 10:56:49 AM
Subject: Thinking about organizing a special women-oriented event

Hi!

This is not exactly related to Debian, but it came up while talking to
another girl about Debian Women. I've been thinking about this for a
few days, and I'd like to receive comments or opinions from people
here.  Feel free to give me your opinion on any of the subjects below.

I'm thinking of organizing a local (i.e. in Argentina) Free Software
event, where all the speakers are women, and somehow try to advertise
this event so that it's clear that it's specially oriented towards
women, but obviously men will also be welcome at the event.  Before
you ask (this has been the most FAQ), yes, there are enough women in
the region to hold such event.

One of the conflicts that first came up when thinking about this
event, is the name.  Any descriptive names like "Women and Free
Software" sound boring and not something that would bring too many
people.  Other "fun" names like "/bin/chicas" (chicas ~ chix) might
not be too good to describe it either.  So, what I've thought up to
now (I'm still open for better suggestions) is to hold this event in
the frame of the Ada Lovelace Day, which would take care of the name,
and -I think- would also scare some trolls away. But unfortunately
does not convey the "Free" software idea.

Another conflict that came to my mind was about the content. At the
first moment, I had though it'd be nice to have a very tech oriented
event, with very high levels in the contents of the talks, to show
that women are as capable as men on delivering good technical content.
But then, after thinking more about it, I came to realize that if we
want to reach out to women that aren't yet involved in Free Software,
we might need to include some introductory talks as well, and thus I'm
not certain any more of what kind of event it would be.

And finally, I've been thinking about getting sponsors for the event,
since it'd be nice to be able to pay the travel costs for women that
live in different cities, but then I came to realize that this event
might not be as appealing to common sponsors as the normal Free
Software events, and thus I wonder how I should approach them, or if I
should try to approach different sponsors than the common Free
Software ones.

Well that's it, I'd be delighted to hear your opinions about all this.

--
Besos,
Marga


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[Serafeim Zanikolas]

Hi Marga -- great idea!

On Thu, Aug 20, 2009 at 02:56:49PM -0300, Margarita Manterola wrote [edited]:
> Another conflict that came to my mind was about the content. At the
> first moment, I had though it'd be nice to have a very tech oriented
> event, with very high levels in the contents of the talks, to show
> that women are as capable as men on delivering good technical content.
>  But then, after thinking more about it, I came to realize that if we
> want to reach out to women that aren't yet involved in Free Software,
> we might need to include some introductory talks as well, and thus I'm
> not certain any more of what kind of event it would be.

How about a mixture? A few empowering ones (``I did it, so _you_ can too!''),
a few technical introductions, and some advanced (perhaps allocated a bit more
time so that people can interrupt and ask for more elaborate explanations when
necessary).

All three kinds have their purpose and are complementary. Even highly
technical talks that are not fully understood can be inspirational when one
can identify with the speaker.

For the first kind, I think it'd be great to have ``How I became a contributor
in project X'' from several speakers, each one breaking down a different kind
of stereotype and/or representing a different kind of contribution.

Finally, IMO at least as important as the talks is the opportunity to meet
friendly committers that are offering to sponsor/mentor newcomers.

Cheers,
Serafeim

ps. I assume you're familiar with Christian Perrier's excellent (except for
the silly title) ``Contributing to Debian for dummies''

--
debtags-organised WNPP bugs: http://members.hellug.gr/serzan/wnpp


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[Holger Levsen-2]

Hi Marga,

On Donnerstag, 20. August 2009, Margarita Manterola wrote:
> I'm thinking of organizing a local (i.e. in Argentina) Free Software
> event, where all the speakers are women, and somehow try to advertise
> this event so that it's clear that it's specially oriented towards
> women, but obviously men will also be welcome at the event.

Why? It's not obvious to me. I think not having any men there would attract
some women who would otherwise not joiin.


regards,
        Holger

[Margarita Manterola]

On Mon, Aug 24, 2009 at 12:13 PM, Holger Levsen<holger@...> wrote:

> On Donnerstag, 20. August 2009, Margarita Manterola wrote:
>> I'm thinking of organizing a local (i.e. in Argentina) Free Software
>> event, where all the speakers are women, and somehow try to advertise
>> this event so that it's clear that it's specially oriented towards
>> women, but obviously men will also be welcome at the event.
>
> Why? It's not obvious to me. I think not having any men there would attract
> some women who would otherwise not joiin.

My original idea was to have a technical event with useful talks.
It'd be a shame to go through the effort of gathering quite a number
of regional women for an event, and then make it so that only a group
of people (women) can attend.

If it were to be only a "what is free software" event, I agree that it
could be women-only.  But I'm not sure it's healthy either.  One thing
is to try to show women that they can participate in free software, a
different thing is to show a fictitious world where all attendees are
women.

--
Besos,
Marga


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[gaba]

I went to a few women-only techie events and I really enjoyed them. I
heard many more women talking and chatting that I usually do in any other
techie conf and I think it also has to do with how men tend to take
iniative more than women sometimes.

When I was talking with Margarita (we met in Argentina last week) I was
refering to the she's geeky conference [0] . I think that those kind of
events are inclusive and help recognize ourselves in the other women that
attend and are doing interesting stuff. It's the same reason on why we go
on creating e-groups like this one and others (devchix, linuxchix,etc).

salu,
gaba


[0] http://shesgeeky.org/

> On Mon, Aug 24, 2009 at 12:13 PM, Holger Levsen<holger@...>
> wrote:
>
>> On Donnerstag, 20. August 2009, Margarita Manterola wrote:
>>> I'm thinking of organizing a local (i.e. in Argentina) Free Software
>>> event, where all the speakers are women, and somehow try to advertise
>>> this event so that it's clear that it's specially oriented towards
>>> women, but obviously men will also be welcome at the event.
>>
>> Why? It's not obvious to me. I think not having any men there would
>> attract
>> some women who would otherwise not joiin.
>
> My original idea was to have a technical event with useful talks.
> It'd be a shame to go through the effort of gathering quite a number
> of regional women for an event, and then make it so that only a group
> of people (women) can attend.
>
> If it were to be only a "what is free software" event, I agree that it
> could be women-only.  But I'm not sure it's healthy either.  One thing
> is to try to show women that they can participate in free software, a
> different thing is to show a fictitious world where all attendees are
> women.
>
> --
> Besos,
> Marga
>
>
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[Holger Levsen]

Hi,

On Montag, 24. August 2009, Margarita Manterola wrote:
> It'd be a shame to go through the effort of gathering quite a number
> of regional women for an event, and then make it so that only a group
> of people (women) can attend.

Poor men indeed!

> One thing
> is to try to show women that they can participate in free software, a
> different thing is to show a fictitious world where all attendees are
> women.

I dont think that would be the effect / a sensible message neither. I rather
envision more involvement from women who otherwise would be "silent
observers", even more involvement from women who are already active, also
less wasted time due to male-centric discussions on topics, etc. Plus other
effects I'm too busy to imagine now ;-)

And, by all means do what you envision - I just wondered since it absolutly
wasnt (and isnt) obvious to me.


regards,
        Holger

[Jordi Gutiérrez Hermoso]

2009/8/24 Holger Levsen <holger@...>:
> Why? It's not obvious to me. I think not having any men there would attract
> some women who would otherwise not joiin.

So...

Could Caster Semenya go to the event or not? ;-)

- Jordi G. H.


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[Miriam Ruiz-2]

2009/8/24 Jordi Gutiérrez Hermos <jordigh@...>:
> 2009/8/24 Holger Levsen <holger@...>:
>> Why? It's not obvious to me. I think not having any men there would attract
>> some women who would otherwise not joiin.
>
> So...
>
> Could Caster Semenya go to the event or not? ;-)

I think those kind of jokes are out of place here

Greetings,
Miry


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[Holger Levsen]

Hi,

Actually I dont think it's a joke, but (hope it is "just") a pointless, stupid
comment, made without much thought. (I assume trying to be $whatever
("funny"?, dont care. Poor Caster (for being the object of so much crap).)

Of course most women-only events are also open to those "few" who for whatever
reason cannot fit into the binary men/women scheme.


regards,
        Holger

[mosca-2]

Hi all

As explained to Margarita in a private email, I'll be glad to attend this event.
Unfortunately I'm living in Paris and It represents a very far trip.

For this reason I suggest we organize a similar event in Paris to gather debian
women from European countries. It will be much easier for them to travel to
Paris than to Buenos Aires...

If any people is interested in starting the event calendar and/or discuss this
point, feel free to contact me.

regards
BZ

Selon Holger Levsen <debian@...>:

> Hi,
>
> Actually I dont think it's a joke, but (hope it is "just") a pointless,
> stupid
> comment, made without much thought. (I assume trying to be $whatever
> ("funny"?, dont care. Poor Caster (for being the object of so much crap).)
>
> Of course most women-only events are also open to those "few" who for
> whatever
> reason cannot fit into the binary men/women scheme.
>
>
> regards,
> Holger
>
>

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[Narrira Lemos]

Hi,

Let me introduce myself first.
My name is Narrira, but people usually call me as Nah. I'm from Brasil and part of some tech collectives based on here. I used to be part of debian user group of my local city - but couldn't get involved with that; I am already involved with some other (mainly www.naxanta.org).

While I was in the "debian user group" we also had thought to make a event for women - and we had this conversation of "can men go?"; I don't think it is easy to decide, but I also agree that many women (including me) can get more involved in conversations at tech events where are only women (or less men). But, anyway, if it will be an event open for men, you can't limit men access - and It can become another event with more men than women.

But I'd love to go to this event if it'll really happen in Argentina! The trip is not that far and flight bookings are not so expensive. It would be great. I know some other girls that would be very happy to go there as well, and maybe make a speech.

Sorry for the bad english - I have to practice, this is my first email for the list.

greetz,
nah.

2009/8/25 <binz75015@...>

Hi all

As explained to Margarita in a private email, I'll be glad to attend this event.
Unfortunately I'm living in Paris and It represents a very far trip.

For this reason I suggest we organize a similar event in Paris to gather debian
women from European countries. It will be much easier for them to travel to
Paris than to Buenos Aires...

If any people is interested in starting the event calendar and/or discuss this
point, feel free to contact me.

regards
BZ

[Ana Guerrero-3]

On Mon, Aug 24, 2009 at 01:52:21PM -0500, Jordi Gutiérrez Hermos wrote:
> 2009/8/24 Holger Levsen <holger@...>:
> > Why? It's not obvious to me. I think not having any men there would attract
> > some women who would otherwise not joiin.
>
> So...
>
> Could Caster Semenya go to the event or not? ;-)
>

I fail to see who is this funny or on-topic?
Keep such "jokes" out of here.

Ana


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[Anne Ghisla Insubriae]

Il giorno mar, 25/08/2009 alle 16.20 +0200, Ana Guerrero ha scritto:

> On Mon, Aug 24, 2009 at 01:52:21PM -0500, Jordi Gutiérrez Hermos wrote:
> > 2009/8/24 Holger Levsen <holger@...>:
> > > Why? It's not obvious to me. I think not having any men there would attract
> > > some women who would otherwise not joiin.
> >
> > So...
> >
> > Could Caster Semenya go to the event or not? ;-)
> >
>
> I fail to see who is this funny or on-topic?
> Keep such "jokes" out of here.

my 2 cents: I agree with Ana. These jokes are hard to understand
properly on written communication. So I can't get if it is just an
innocent joke or, as it is so common among men who fear women raise of
awareness (but can't understand why), a way to reduce importance of what
women do and think by laughing at them.

best regards to all,
Anne

>
> Ana
>
>

[Miriam Ruiz-2]

2009/8/25 Anne Ghisla <a.ghisla@...>:

> Il giorno mar, 25/08/2009 alle 16.20 +0200, Ana Guerrero ha scritto:
>> On Mon, Aug 24, 2009 at 01:52:21PM -0500, Jordi Gutiérrez Hermos wrote:
>> > 2009/8/24 Holger Levsen <holger@...>:
>> > > Why? It's not obvious to me. I think not having any men there would attract
>> > > some women who would otherwise not joiin.
>> >
>> > So...
>> >
>> > Could Caster Semenya go to the event or not? ;-)
>> >
>>
>> I fail to see who is this funny or on-topic?
>> Keep such "jokes" out of here.
>
> my 2 cents: I agree with Ana. These jokes are hard to understand
> properly on written communication. So I can't get if it is just an
> innocent joke or, as it is so common among men who fear women raise of
> awareness (but can't understand why), a way to reduce importance of what
> women do and think by laughing at them.

It is by no means an innocent joke. I'll explain the context, for
those who are not familiar with it. Caster Semenya [1] is a South
African middle-distance runner who has been recently accused -at least
in Spanish Speaking media [2]- of "being too similar to a man". She
has been harshly and cruelly harassed and laughed at in different
media for having a high level of testosterone [3] (3 times more than
the average woman, 10 times less than the average man), up to a point
where the International Association of Athletics Federations (IAAF)
had to conduct a gender verification test.

That joke, in my opinion, has different levels of evilness at once:
1) It is offtopic, childish and disruptive of the the topic thas was
being discussed ("Hey! I'm here! Pay me attention!"), to a point
where, as Anne says (but probably the writer is not doing consciously)
the whole matter being discussed is reduced in importance
2) It is cruel against a young woman (18 y.o.) who is being severely
attacked about her sexuality for "not being female enough", and who
has feelings that should be respected [4].
3) As Holger says, it takes out of the equation everyone who does not
clearly fit into one of the stereotypical male-female roles
4) It is not funny at all

Greetings,
Miry

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caster_Semenya
[2] http://www.dosmanzanas.com/2009/08/borchornoso-tratamiento-de-algunos-medios-al-caso-de-caster-semenya-la-atleta-sudafricana-cuya-feminidad-se-ha-puesto-en-duda.html
[3] http://tvnz.co.nz/othersports-news/revelations-ahead-gender-test-results-2942837
[4] http://blogs.20minutos.es/salud_y_deporte/post/2009/08/23/aay-quao-pasa-con-sentimientos-caster-semenya-


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[Jordi Gutiérrez Hermoso]

2009/8/25 Anne Ghisla <a.ghisla@...>:

> Il giorno mar, 25/08/2009 alle 16.20 +0200, Ana Guerrero ha scritto:
>> On Mon, Aug 24, 2009 at 01:52:21PM -0500, Jordi Gutiérrez Hermos wrote:
>> > 2009/8/24 Holger Levsen <holger@...>:
>> > > Why? It's not obvious to me. I think not having any men there would attract
>> > > some women who would otherwise not joiin.
>> >
>> > So...
>> >
>> > Could Caster Semenya go to the event or not? ;-)
>> >
>>
>> I fail to see who is this funny or on-topic?
>> Keep such "jokes" out of here.
>
> my 2 cents: I agree with Ana. These jokes are hard to understand
> properly on written communication. So I can't get if it is just an
> innocent joke or, as it is so common among men who fear women raise of
> awareness (but can't understand why), a way to reduce importance of what
> women do and think by laughing at them.

Uh...

Sorry.

It was meant to ruffle feathers at the suggestion that you should
limit access to an event based on sex. It was supposed to suggest, for
example, that you were willing to check karyotypes, hormone levels,
and anatomy and whatever else Semenya has had to put up with before
you decided if a particular person should be allowed to attend the
event or not.

I'm not exactly sure how it was interpreted in an offensive manner,
but I suppose it was tactless of me to make a... uh... joke (it wasn't
even meant to be that funny) that could potentially be offensive. I
apologise.

- Jordi G. H.


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[Lisi Reisz]

On Tuesday 25 August 2009 16:12:27 Miriam Ruiz wrote:
> 2009/8/25 Anne Ghisla <a.ghisla@...>:
> > my 2 cents: I agree with Ana. These jokes are hard to understand
> > properly on written communication. So I can't get if it is just an
> > innocent joke or, as it is so common among men who fear women raise of
> > awareness (but can't understand why), a way to reduce importance of what
> > women do and think by laughing at them.
>
> It is by no means an innocent joke.

It seems to me to be worthy of comment that the only contribution to a
sensible discussion, which contribution has of necessity dragged the
discussion OT and "down", is also the only contribution that I can identify
as having come from a man.

I would go along with the implied suggestion, earlier in the thread, that it
probably stems from his in some way feeling threaened by women who have
strayed from their traditional and allotted role.

my 2c.,
Lisi


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[mosca-2]

Now I understand better the "joke" from holger. It is absolutely unacceptable.
Unfortunately, this is the kind of joke I was usually faced with in one of my
previous job. Some men just consider women have nothing to do in any technical
fields and they truly make it understand to the few women that have the courage
to start a technical job.

I was personnaly hurt by this kind of daily jokes that truly put women in an
inferior level. Yes, it is the reality, women are just good to be FU... and they
do not have to be clever and, worse, beautiful and clever.

So Holger, I don't know if you are a man or a woman but your joke is just simply
not funny and insulting for technical women.

Yes, we have to fight again in order to reduce prejudices and hate again clever
women. Let's gather in Argentina, France or wherever to build a strong community
and make clear that there is no jobs for women and jobs for men but only job for
human beings.

BZ


Selon Jordi Gutiérrez Hermos <jordigh@...>:

> 2009/8/25 Anne Ghisla <a.ghisla@...>:
> > Il giorno mar, 25/08/2009 alle 16.20 +0200, Ana Guerrero ha scritto:
> >> On Mon, Aug 24, 2009 at 01:52:21PM -0500, Jordi Gutiérrez Hermos wrote:
> >> > 2009/8/24 Holger Levsen <holger@...>:
> >> > > Why? It's not obvious to me. I think not having any men there would
> attract
> >> > > some women who would otherwise not joiin.
> >> >
> >> > So...
> >> >
> >> > Could Caster Semenya go to the event or not? ;-)
> >> >
> >>
> >> I fail to see who is this funny or on-topic?
> >> Keep such "jokes" out of here.
> >
> > my 2 cents: I agree with Ana. These jokes are hard to understand
> > properly on written communication. So I can't get if it is just an
> > innocent joke or, as it is so common among men who fear women raise of
> > awareness (but can't understand why), a way to reduce importance of what
> > women do and think by laughing at them.
>
> Uh...
>
> Sorry.
>
> It was meant to ruffle feathers at the suggestion that you should
> limit access to an event based on sex. It was supposed to suggest, for
> example, that you were willing to check karyotypes, hormone levels,
> and anatomy and whatever else Semenya has had to put up with before
> you decided if a particular person should be allowed to attend the
> event or not.
>
> I'm not exactly sure how it was interpreted in an offensive manner,
> but I suppose it was tactless of me to make a... uh... joke (it wasn't
> even meant to be that funny) that could potentially be offensive. I
> apologise.
>
> - Jordi G. H.
>
>
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[Miriam Ruiz-2]

2009/8/25  <binz75015@...>:

> So Holger, I don't know if you are a man or a woman but your joke is just simply
> not funny and insulting for technical women.

I think that you have been mistaken. Holger was not the one that made
the joke, and in fact he did complain about it in a very serious way:

2009/8/25 Holger Levsen <debian@...>:

> Actually I dont think it's a joke, but (hope it is "just") a pointless, stupid
> comment, made without much thought. (I assume trying to be $whatever
> ("funny"?, dont care. Poor Caster (for being the object of so much crap).)
>
> Of course most women-only events are also open to those "few" who for whatever
> reason cannot fit into the binary men/women scheme.

In any case, it would be better to just go over it and continue the
discussion where we left it, now that the author has apologised.

Greetings,
Miry


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[Jordi Gutiérrez Hermoso]

2009/8/25  <binz75015@...>:
> Now I understand better the "joke" from holger. It is absolutely unacceptable.

I think I may be digging my grave here, but the remark came from me,
not Holger. I don't know if "Holger" is typically a male or female
name either, but at any rate, Holger had nothing to do with it.

I'm going to try to soften the blow of my remark (I didn't even
consider it a joke either), but I'm not sure I'll be able to do so
properly. I am also trying to shut up as much as I can over that
comment, since I *really* don't want to drag the discussion too far
afield from the conference, nor to make excessive noise to distract
away from the topic at hand: that the conference may take place.

I think my comment was taken to insinuate that a woman whose feminity
was cast in doubt isn't a woman. Let me try to explain where I'm
coming from: I don't like to be excluded any more than you do. I know
that sometimes I need to be excluded, and I try to understand it, but
I still don't like it.

When the suggestion started drifting towards an exclusionary event,
even though I understand the necessity of it, it still triggers a
response in me of distaste. And yes, I apologise for how I expressed
my distaste for an exclusionary event. It was a gut reaction, and it
was wrong of me.

I consider myself to exhibit some feminine traits, even though I'm
predominantly masculine, whatever you may take "masculine" and
"feminine" to mean; I think I have a bit of both, and so does almost
everyone else. By bringing up Semenya's recently publicised treatment
here, I was trying to highlight the difficulty of being exclusionary
based on gender traits. I would have liked in principle to attend the
conference, if only from the sidelines as I try to do on this mailing
list, mostly as an observer except now, and I felt that this was a
privilege I was about to lose.

Again, this is just a gut reaction from me. I didn't express myself
properly, and I'm trying to do so now. I am trying to not sound
aggressive, or menacing, or overly combative/argumentative, and I'm
trying to tone down what I perceive to be my "masculine" traits.

I can sit down and rationalise why exclusion is important. If nothing
else, to compensate for centuries of an overwhelming exclusion in the
other direction. However, my gut doesn't always immediately remember
the centuries of exclusion in favour that its male ancestors have
perpetrated on others, and when that happens, it doesn't like it and
tries to bring up a recent social situation where sex-based exclusion
is turning out to be a big fiasco and ultimately futile.

I'm rambling... but I really hope I managed to offend a little less
this time... and I hope I didn't make it worse.

- Jordi G. H.


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