Thinking of a career change.. how does one get into Technical Recruiting..

[Scott Stewart-9]

Hey all,

 

Since there's a large number of recruiters on this list, I've been
wondering.

How does one break into technical recruiting?

 

I've got years of experience as a ColdFusion developer, but it appears that
the CF market in NC has dried up. So I'm entertaining the idea of moving
into recruiting, but have no idea where to start.

 

Thanks in advance for any replies

 

sas

 

--
Scott Stewart
ColdFusion Developer
4405 Oakshyre Way
Raleigh, NC 27616
(h) 919.874.6229 (c) 703.220.2835

 



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[Jerry Johnson]

Sell your wife, mother, and youngest child.

Then have a heart reduction surgery (placing is in a secure storage
facility)

Rob a whole troop of girlscouts out of their cookie money.

Dig a 20 foot hole in a sand trap with a sand wedge.

And tell a bar full of Yankee fans that the Red Sox are a better team.

Now, add the above items to your resume, and you should be all set.


More seriously, know that recruiting is a _hard_ job, and requires a true
salesman's ability to pursue leads with dogged determination and boundless
energy. And you will need very thick skin, a golden tongue, and the ability
to sell your technical knowledge even when out on thin ice experience-wise.

Many of my friends and colleagues that have switched from technical track to
recruiting and placement did so while pursuing a job. They gradually moved
from looking for a job to harassing their recruiters for jobs, to being
asked "can you do it better", to working for their recruiter.

So my advice, from the cheap seats, would be to think about the recruiters
YOU liked working with, and contacting them to see if they need help. And
don't take the first 5 "no"s for an answer.





On Thu, Mar 12, 2009 at 3:36 PM, Scott Stewart <sstwebworks@...>wrote:

>
> Hey all,
>
>
>
> Since there's a large number of recruiters on this list, I've been
> wondering.
>
> How does one break into technical recruiting?
>
>
>
> I've got years of experience as a ColdFusion developer, but it appears that
> the CF market in NC has dried up. So I'm entertaining the idea of moving
> into recruiting, but have no idea where to start.
>
>
>
> Thanks in advance for any replies
>
>
>
> sas
>
>
>
> --
> Scott Stewart
> ColdFusion Developer
> 4405 Oakshyre Way
> Raleigh, NC 27616
> (h) 919.874.6229 (c) 703.220.2835
>
>
>
>
>
>

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[Rich Baker]

Best way I can think of is to get a list of recruiting firms in your
local area, so dome research on them, and give them a call. Wouldn't
send a resume in asking about recruiter openings - call. It makes a big
difference.

As a starting point, take a look at this website
http://www.naccb.org/findafirm/index.cfm (notice the cfm extension :-)

It's a tough job, but rewarding

Rich

Richard E. Baker | TEAM Information Services


-----Original Message-----
From: Scott Stewart [mailto:sstwebworks@...]
Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2009 3:36 PM
To: cf-jobs-talk
Subject: Thinking of a career change.. how does one get into Technical
Recruiting..


Hey all,

 

Since there's a large number of recruiters on this list, I've been
wondering.

How does one break into technical recruiting?

 

I've got years of experience as a ColdFusion developer, but it appears
that
the CF market in NC has dried up. So I'm entertaining the idea of moving
into recruiting, but have no idea where to start.

 

Thanks in advance for any replies

 

sas

 

--
Scott Stewart
ColdFusion Developer
4405 Oakshyre Way
Raleigh, NC 27616
(h) 919.874.6229 (c) 703.220.2835

 





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[Bryan Stevenson]

LOL....that's all I got...LOL!!
-  


Bryan Stevenson B.Comm.
VP & Director of E-Commerce Development
Electric Edge Systems Group Inc.
phone: [phone]
fax: [phone]
cell: 250.920.8830
e-mail: bryan@...
web: www.electricedgesystems.com
 
Notice:
This message, including any attachments, is confidential and may contain
information that is privileged or exempt from disclosure. It is intended
only for the person to whom it is addressed unless expressly authorized
otherwise by the sender. If you are not an authorized recipient, please
notify the sender immediately and permanently destroy all copies of this
message and attachments.


On Thu, 2009-03-12 at 15:52 -0400, Jerry Johnson wrote:

> Sell your wife, mother, and youngest child.
>
> Then have a heart reduction surgery (placing is in a secure storage
> facility)
>
> Rob a whole troop of girlscouts out of their cookie money.
>
> Dig a 20 foot hole in a sand trap with a sand wedge.
>
> And tell a bar full of Yankee fans that the Red Sox are a better team.
>
> Now, add the above items to your resume, and you should be all set.
>
>
> More seriously, know that recruiting is a _hard_ job, and requires a true
> salesman's ability to pursue leads with dogged determination and boundless
> energy. And you will need very thick skin, a golden tongue, and the ability
> to sell your technical knowledge even when out on thin ice experience-wise.
>
> Many of my friends and colleagues that have switched from technical track to
> recruiting and placement did so while pursuing a job. They gradually moved
> from looking for a job to harassing their recruiters for jobs, to being
> asked "can you do it better", to working for their recruiter.
>
> So my advice, from the cheap seats, would be to think about the recruiters
> YOU liked working with, and contacting them to see if they need help. And
> don't take the first 5 "no"s for an answer.
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Mar 12, 2009 at 3:36 PM, Scott Stewart <sstwebworks@...>wrote:
>
> >
> > Hey all,
> >
> >
> >
> > Since there's a large number of recruiters on this list, I've been
> > wondering.
> >
> > How does one break into technical recruiting?
> >
> >
> >
> > I've got years of experience as a ColdFusion developer, but it appears that
> > the CF market in NC has dried up. So I'm entertaining the idea of moving
> > into recruiting, but have no idea where to start.
> >
> >
> >
> > Thanks in advance for any replies
> >
> >
> >
> > sas
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Scott Stewart
> > ColdFusion Developer
> > 4405 Oakshyre Way
> > Raleigh, NC 27616
> > (h) 919.874.6229 (c) 703.220.2835
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>

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[David Wilf]

Steve, go talk to the managers you worked for in previous contracts. Find
out what their needs are and tell them you have a great deal of recourses
because you have been in IT for so long.

Regarding the selling family members and getting a heart reduction surgery
email, there is enough of those already.

Go get them and don't forget us little people.

Thanks
David Wilf PMP

-----Original Message-----
From: Scott Stewart [mailto:sstwebworks@...]
Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2009 3:36 PM
To: cf-jobs-talk
Subject: Thinking of a career change.. how does one get into Technical
Recruiting..


Hey all,

 

Since there's a large number of recruiters on this list, I've been
wondering.

How does one break into technical recruiting?

 

I've got years of experience as a ColdFusion developer, but it appears that
the CF market in NC has dried up. So I'm entertaining the idea of moving
into recruiting, but have no idea where to start.

 

Thanks in advance for any replies

 

sas

 

--
Scott Stewart
ColdFusion Developer
4405 Oakshyre Way
Raleigh, NC 27616
(h) 919.874.6229 (c) 703.220.2835

 





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[Jeffry Houser]

 Just in case Jerry makes it sound appealing, you'll also have to deal
with programmers [like me] who view recruiters as the scum.  You can
brush up on your recruiter skills by:

1) Learning how to do mass adds on LinkedIn
2) Making a list of every programming language known to man so you can
put it in job descriptions.

 Unless you're sick of programming, I recommend learning a new language
( Flex, .NET, Java, Ruby, whatever) that seems to be in demand in your
area.

Jerry Johnson wrote:

> Sell your wife, mother, and youngest child.
>
> Then have a heart reduction surgery (placing is in a secure storage
> facility)
>
> Rob a whole troop of girlscouts out of their cookie money.
>
> Dig a 20 foot hole in a sand trap with a sand wedge.
>
> And tell a bar full of Yankee fans that the Red Sox are a better team.
>
> Now, add the above items to your resume, and you should be all set.
>
>
> More seriously, know that recruiting is a _hard_ job, and requires a true
> salesman's ability to pursue leads with dogged determination and boundless
> energy. And you will need very thick skin, a golden tongue, and the ability
> to sell your technical knowledge even when out on thin ice experience-wise.
>
> Many of my friends and colleagues that have switched from technical track to
> recruiting and placement did so while pursuing a job. They gradually moved
> from looking for a job to harassing their recruiters for jobs, to being
> asked "can you do it better", to working for their recruiter.
>
> So my advice, from the cheap seats, would be to think about the recruiters
> YOU liked working with, and contacting them to see if they need help. And
> don't take the first 5 "no"s for an answer.
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Mar 12, 2009 at 3:36 PM, Scott Stewart <sstwebworks@...>wrote:
>
>  
>> Hey all,
>>
>>
>>
>> Since there's a large number of recruiters on this list, I've been
>> wondering.
>>
>> How does one break into technical recruiting?
>>
>>
>>
>> I've got years of experience as a ColdFusion developer, but it appears that
>> the CF market in NC has dried up. So I'm entertaining the idea of moving
>> into recruiting, but have no idea where to start.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks in advance for any replies
>>
>>
>>
>> sas
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Scott Stewart
>> ColdFusion Developer
>> 4405 Oakshyre Way
>> Raleigh, NC 27616
>> (h) 919.874.6229 (c) 703.220.2835
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>    
>
>

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|
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[Rich Baker]

Wow... Probably should have exercised better judgment than in sending
that email to the whole group... - To each his own

Richard E. Baker | TEAM Information Services


-----Original Message-----
From: Jeffry Houser [mailto:jeff@...]
Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2009 4:58 PM
To: cf-jobs-talk
Subject: Re: Thinking of a career change.. how does one get into
Technical Recruiting..


 Just in case Jerry makes it sound appealing, you'll also have to deal
with programmers [like me] who view recruiters as the scum.  You can
brush up on your recruiter skills by:

1) Learning how to do mass adds on LinkedIn
2) Making a list of every programming language known to man so you can
put it in job descriptions.

 Unless you're sick of programming, I recommend learning a new language
( Flex, .NET, Java, Ruby, whatever) that seems to be in demand in your
area.

Jerry Johnson wrote:

> Sell your wife, mother, and youngest child.
>
> Then have a heart reduction surgery (placing is in a secure storage
> facility)
>
> Rob a whole troop of girlscouts out of their cookie money.
>
> Dig a 20 foot hole in a sand trap with a sand wedge.
>
> And tell a bar full of Yankee fans that the Red Sox are a better team.
>
> Now, add the above items to your resume, and you should be all set.
>
>
> More seriously, know that recruiting is a _hard_ job, and requires a

true
> salesman's ability to pursue leads with dogged determination and
boundless
> energy. And you will need very thick skin, a golden tongue, and the
ability
> to sell your technical knowledge even when out on thin ice
experience-wise.
>
> Many of my friends and colleagues that have switched from technical
track to
> recruiting and placement did so while pursuing a job. They gradually
moved
> from looking for a job to harassing their recruiters for jobs, to
being
> asked "can you do it better", to working for their recruiter.
>
> So my advice, from the cheap seats, would be to think about the
recruiters
> YOU liked working with, and contacting them to see if they need help.
And
> don't take the first 5 "no"s for an answer.
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Mar 12, 2009 at 3:36 PM, Scott Stewart
<sstwebworks@...>wrote:

>
>  
>> Hey all,
>>
>>
>>
>> Since there's a large number of recruiters on this list, I've been
>> wondering.
>>
>> How does one break into technical recruiting?
>>
>>
>>
>> I've got years of experience as a ColdFusion developer, but it

appears that
>> the CF market in NC has dried up. So I'm entertaining the idea of
moving

>> into recruiting, but have no idea where to start.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks in advance for any replies
>>
>>
>>
>> sas
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Scott Stewart
>> ColdFusion Developer
>> 4405 Oakshyre Way
>> Raleigh, NC 27616
>> (h) 919.874.6229 (c) 703.220.2835
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>    
>
>

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[RobG-4]

Jerry Johnson wrote:

> Sell your wife, mother, and youngest child.
>
> Then have a heart reduction surgery (placing is in a secure storage
> facility)
>
> Rob a whole troop of girlscouts out of their cookie money.
>
> Dig a 20 foot hole in a sand trap with a sand wedge.
>
> And tell a bar full of Yankee fans that the Red Sox are a better team.
>
> Now, add the above items to your resume, and you should be all set.

That's a good start.

I have yet to find a recruiter or agency that didn't ultimately leave me
feeling raped in the end.  And that's regardless of whether or not I
ultimately got a job through them.

I know recruiters are busy and are trying to fill openings.  But is it
SO freaking hard to treat somebody who has just been DQ'd for whatever
reason like a human being?  Each and every time I have ever been passed
over for a job, the recruiter has stopped answering my emails and/or
phone calls.  Completely.  Not a peep from them ever again UNLESS
another opening came up.  It's like I'm not worth the five seconds of
their time since I'm no longer somebody that could make them money at
that instant.

What's worse, is that they come off all friendly and helpful and
everything at the start... but then, as time passes, they become less
involved.  Even where I am now... the guy handling my position has yet
to EVER call me back to ask how things are going, or to take me to lunch
as he repeatedly promised at the start.  If I email him, I will get a
reply usually within 24 hrs with a short response.  If I have a followup
question, it never gets answered.

And I've been dealing with these lowlifes since the late 90's, so it's
not like I've encountered "a few bad apples."  I firmly believe this to
be the norm.

I think I would sooner try to sell cars than become a recruiter.

Rob

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[Jerry Johnson]

I was (mostly) kidding.

But many programmers and tech types do not realize how _hard_ placement folk
work to get someone into a job.

It seems like free money when you see how much they added to your
contracting rate, or how much you hear they get paid per permanent
placement, but believe it or not it is a difficult job.

You _need_ to divorce personal feelings for each client from the equation.
It is easy to get paralyzed with "I _need_ a job this week, or I lose my
house (my children are sick, my mother-in-law lives with us, etc)", but you
cannot let it get to you. You need to be able to take 30 rejections in
stride, and swing just as hard, with as much patience and professionalism as
you did on the first. And you need to be able to

In the glory days of the dot com era it was an easy job. (pick one resume at
random from column a, match with one job opening from column b, profit!)

But companies (for the most part) are much smarter in their hiring. and tech
staff are much more skittish after bad experiences. So matchmaking is
important if you want any follow on placements.

The skillset that makes a good recruiter, in my opinion, are very specific.
As Rob mentions below, they need to leave the tech staff feeling decent
(even if turned down), need to leave the company feeling good (whether you
place a person or not, you still want them to keep your card for next time.
Because there will be a next time). You need for your recruiting company to
feel you are contributing. And you need to feel pretty good about what you
are doing (and how you are doing it) or the smudges on your soul get
overwhelming and over time very obvious to others.

I don't have the right skills, but I respect the skills in others and can
recognize people that do have it all when I meet them.



On Thu, Mar 12, 2009 at 5:03 PM, Rich Baker <RichB@...> wrote:

>
> Wow... Probably should have exercised better judgment than in sending
> that email to the whole group... - To each his own
>
> Richard E. Baker | TEAM Information Services
>


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[Jeffry Houser]

Jerry Johnson wrote:
> I was (mostly) kidding.
>
> But many programmers and tech types do not realize how _hard_ placement folk
> work to get someone into a job.
>  
 As a business owner for 10 years, who has never been placed by a
recruiter; I think I have a general gist of the amount of work that goes
into getting clients and keeping them happy.  I don't anticipate that
work is much harder than recruiting.

 I haven't looked for a job in about 10 years and haven't spoken to a
recruiter for purposes of job hunts in over 8.  Yet, recruiters keep
contacting me saying they heard I was looking for a job.  They obviously
haven't done any research into me and have no idea who I am.  They will
never tell me where / how they found me or what made them think I was
looking for a new job.  It's always a vague "on the internet".  
Basically, they are screen scraping my e-mail address somehow and
contacting me unsolicited under false pretenses.  It makes them spammers
in my book.

 In fairness, I have been contacted by at least one person who found me
through my blog or other means and seem genuine in their search and do
not make assumptions about my current situation.  Those are few and far
between, though.

--
Jeffry Houser, Technical Entrepreneur
Adobe Community Expert: http://tinyurl.com/684b5h
http://www.twitter.com/reboog711  | Phone: [phone]
--
Easy to use Interface Components for Flex Developers
http://www.flextras.com?c=104
--
http://www.theflexshow.com
http://www.jeffryhouser.com
--
Part of the DotComIt Brain Trust



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[Ravi Gehlot]

Just my $0.02 cents...I think that recruiters do help one get a job.
Yes, most recruiters are all about business but who is not? They try to
get you in and if they can not then they go on to the next one. This is
just the nature of their business. They gotta make it work and in order
to make it work they have to move fast and find the right candidate for
the right position.

That's fine. However, what I do not agree with is the fact that most of
these recruiters are extremely friendly at first and then it all changes
afterwards. I have heard this from most programmers. This is not just
coming from me. Also, if they can not get you the job that they have
been trying to then they also vanish without a trace (this does not
apply to all recruiters). They don't even send you an e-mail to say
....go look for a new opportunity. I mean, it only takes 5 seconds
right? I took 1 week of my time to talk to you and you do not have 5
seconds to say..."Hey, it did not work but maybe next time?"

Also....I had one recruiter call me every 2 weeks to have me rely
information about the company hiring procedures. He wanted to know if
anyone was being hired directly by the company instead of his recruiting
company. So....I try not to be on either side..I am neutral. But
man...you come to me to ask me questions but when I go to you to ask you
questions you just ignore me? What kind of recruiter-to-programmer
relationship is that?

This is not an attack on recruiters. My experience with recruiting
companies is OK. Will I work with recruiters in the future. YES.
Everybody is entitled to making mistakes right? I am sure they also have
a lot to tell about programmers too.

This is just my $0.02 cents,
Ravi.


Jerry Johnson wrote:

> I was (mostly) kidding.
>
> But many programmers and tech types do not realize how _hard_ placement folk
> work to get someone into a job.
>
> It seems like free money when you see how much they added to your
> contracting rate, or how much you hear they get paid per permanent
> placement, but believe it or not it is a difficult job.
>
> You _need_ to divorce personal feelings for each client from the equation.
> It is easy to get paralyzed with "I _need_ a job this week, or I lose my
> house (my children are sick, my mother-in-law lives with us, etc)", but you
> cannot let it get to you. You need to be able to take 30 rejections in
> stride, and swing just as hard, with as much patience and professionalism as
> you did on the first. And you need to be able to
>
> In the glory days of the dot com era it was an easy job. (pick one resume at
> random from column a, match with one job opening from column b, profit!)
>
> But companies (for the most part) are much smarter in their hiring. and tech
> staff are much more skittish after bad experiences. So matchmaking is
> important if you want any follow on placements.
>
> The skillset that makes a good recruiter, in my opinion, are very specific.
> As Rob mentions below, they need to leave the tech staff feeling decent
> (even if turned down), need to leave the company feeling good (whether you
> place a person or not, you still want them to keep your card for next time.
> Because there will be a next time). You need for your recruiting company to
> feel you are contributing. And you need to feel pretty good about what you
> are doing (and how you are doing it) or the smudges on your soul get
> overwhelming and over time very obvious to others.
>
> I don't have the right skills, but I respect the skills in others and can
> recognize people that do have it all when I meet them.
>
>
>
> On Thu, Mar 12, 2009 at 5:03 PM, Rich Baker <RichB@...> wrote:
>
>  
>> Wow... Probably should have exercised better judgment than in sending
>> that email to the whole group... - To each his own
>>
>> Richard E. Baker | TEAM Information Services
>>
>>    
>
>
>

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[Adrian Lynch]

Seems we all have similar experiences.

Would love to hear what a recruiter has to say!

Adrian

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Scott Stewart [mailto:sstwebworks@...]
> Sent: 12 March 2009 19:36
> To: cf-jobs-talk
> Subject: Thinking of a career change.. how does one get into Technical
> Recruiting..
>
> Hey all,
>
> Since there's a large number of recruiters on this list, I've been
> wondering.
>
> How does one break into technical recruiting?
>
> I've got years of experience as a ColdFusion developer, but it appears
> that
> the CF market in NC has dried up. So I'm entertaining the idea of
> moving
> into recruiting, but have no idea where to start.
>
> Thanks in advance for any replies
>
> sas
>
> --
> Scott Stewart

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[Rich Baker]

Scott,

This one kind of got away from the original topic a little : -)

There are good Recruiters, and ones who should think about how to
improve their customer service skills a bit, and yet others who would do
the world a service and go back to selling used cars, or selling junk
bonds to little old ladies in Iowa. There's no question about it.

Fingers can be pointed all over the place... Recruiters for the lack of
follow through, customer service skills, honesty, integrity, etc.
Developers for their lack of response, embellishment of skills,
dishonesty about being submitted to certain clients, or actually
applying directly once a Recruiter revealed the company name, etc,
etc...

Unfortunately, there are a lot of obstacles and preconceived notions
that exist on both sides of the fence.

There are many people who don't see the value recruiters bring to the
table; people who have never needed to rely on other people to help them
find a job. Yet others who are very happy to work with Recruiters
(managers and candidates).

If you are sincerely interested in delving into this area, please shoot
me an email or give me a call. I can give you some good questions to ask
that'll help you make sure they are a decent firm to work for.

I'll do what I can to help

Rich - 407-548-6313 richb@...

-----Original Message-----
From: Ravi Gehlot [mailto:ravi@...]
Sent: Friday, March 13, 2009 11:02 AM
To: cf-jobs-talk
Subject: Re: Thinking of a career change.. how does one get into
Technical Recruiting..


Just my $0.02 cents...I think that recruiters do help one get a job.
Yes, most recruiters are all about business but who is not? They try to
get you in and if they can not then they go on to the next one. This is
just the nature of their business. They gotta make it work and in order
to make it work they have to move fast and find the right candidate for
the right position.

That's fine. However, what I do not agree with is the fact that most of
these recruiters are extremely friendly at first and then it all changes

afterwards. I have heard this from most programmers. This is not just
coming from me. Also, if they can not get you the job that they have
been trying to then they also vanish without a trace (this does not
apply to all recruiters). They don't even send you an e-mail to say
....go look for a new opportunity. I mean, it only takes 5 seconds
right? I took 1 week of my time to talk to you and you do not have 5
seconds to say..."Hey, it did not work but maybe next time?"

Also....I had one recruiter call me every 2 weeks to have me rely
information about the company hiring procedures. He wanted to know if
anyone was being hired directly by the company instead of his recruiting

company. So....I try not to be on either side..I am neutral. But
man...you come to me to ask me questions but when I go to you to ask you

questions you just ignore me? What kind of recruiter-to-programmer
relationship is that?

This is not an attack on recruiters. My experience with recruiting
companies is OK. Will I work with recruiters in the future. YES.
Everybody is entitled to making mistakes right? I am sure they also have

a lot to tell about programmers too.

This is just my $0.02 cents,
Ravi.


Jerry Johnson wrote:
> I was (mostly) kidding.
>
> But many programmers and tech types do not realize how _hard_
placement folk
> work to get someone into a job.
>
> It seems like free money when you see how much they added to your
> contracting rate, or how much you hear they get paid per permanent
> placement, but believe it or not it is a difficult job.
>
> You _need_ to divorce personal feelings for each client from the
equation.
> It is easy to get paralyzed with "I _need_ a job this week, or I lose
my
> house (my children are sick, my mother-in-law lives with us, etc)",
but you
> cannot let it get to you. You need to be able to take 30 rejections in
> stride, and swing just as hard, with as much patience and
professionalism as
> you did on the first. And you need to be able to
>
> In the glory days of the dot com era it was an easy job. (pick one
resume at
> random from column a, match with one job opening from column b,
profit!)
>
> But companies (for the most part) are much smarter in their hiring.
and tech
> staff are much more skittish after bad experiences. So matchmaking is
> important if you want any follow on placements.
>
> The skillset that makes a good recruiter, in my opinion, are very
specific.
> As Rob mentions below, they need to leave the tech staff feeling
decent
> (even if turned down), need to leave the company feeling good (whether
you
> place a person or not, you still want them to keep your card for next
time.
> Because there will be a next time). You need for your recruiting
company to
> feel you are contributing. And you need to feel pretty good about what
you
> are doing (and how you are doing it) or the smudges on your soul get
> overwhelming and over time very obvious to others.
>
> I don't have the right skills, but I respect the skills in others and
can
> recognize people that do have it all when I meet them.
>
>
>
> On Thu, Mar 12, 2009 at 5:03 PM, Rich Baker <RichB@...>
wrote:

>
>  
>> Wow... Probably should have exercised better judgment than in sending
>> that email to the whole group... - To each his own
>>
>> Richard E. Baker | TEAM Information Services
>>
>>    
>
>
>

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[coderWil]

Some technical recruiters work with the concepts of a fisherman's net.  They
will catch anyone and everyone for a position, good fit or not.

Whenever a recruiter contacts me I take control of the conversation, as I
have gotten tired of driving all the way down to 'their' office to fill out
their paperwork, just to find out that the job they called me about was not
suited for me or my experience levels.

Just one story of why it pays to take control of the conversation.  I was
called by a recruiter who was asking me about my skills for a position she
had to fill.  After about 15 minutes of talking she said she saw that I had
expert skills in Java.  I asked her where she saw this and she told me the
name of a popular resume site.  I immediately pulled up my resume there and
looked at it to verify that I was not misrepresenting myself and saw that I
made no mention of Java at all in my resume.

I am sure many of you have dealt with this yourselves.

I told her that I did not have expert skills in Java, and asked her if it
was pertinent to the job position.  She said it was in the list of required
skills and she said that she saw it, then she read to me the line I wrote in
that resume describing my Javascript skills.  

I told her that Javascript is a completely different language from Java.  To
her credit, she did ask me to explain to her the differences.  I did.  At
least she, hopefully, won't make the same mistake in a future recruitment,
but if she hadn't been very conversational, I would have wasted my time
going to the interview.

I guess I am saying this to you, if you choose to join the ranks of the
recruiter, make sure you understand what you are looking for.  And if, like
so many HR departments do, the requirements look like 'programmer soup' as
opposed to a specific requirement, ask the HR department to speak directly
to the supervisor who needs the employee.  The more knowledgeable of the
position you are, the better you present yourself.  Looking for a web
programmer for a specific company who has to have 8 years of experience in:
CF, ASP, .NET, C#, PERL, PHP, C++, JAVA, JavaScript, HTML, PHOTOSHOP, et al
Is the same as saying you don't know what you are looking for, unless the
actual job description describes why all of the same kinds of programming
languages.


------------------
William E. Seiter
 
Need to have your mortgage modified?  
I charge no fees until I am successful,
then I charge almost half the rate you
would find elsewhere.
Professional. Dedicated. Effective.
The Easy 24/7 way to get started: http://www.goldengrove.net/
or you can call: (626) 593 - 5501
-----Original Message-----
From: Ravi Gehlot [mailto:ravi@...]
Sent: Friday, March 13, 2009 8:02 AM
To: cf-jobs-talk
Subject: Re: Thinking of a career change.. how does one get into Technical
Recruiting..


Just my $0.02 cents...I think that recruiters do help one get a job.
Yes, most recruiters are all about business but who is not? They try to
get you in and if they can not then they go on to the next one. This is
just the nature of their business. They gotta make it work and in order
to make it work they have to move fast and find the right candidate for
the right position.

That's fine. However, what I do not agree with is the fact that most of
these recruiters are extremely friendly at first and then it all changes
afterwards. I have heard this from most programmers. This is not just
coming from me. Also, if they can not get you the job that they have
been trying to then they also vanish without a trace (this does not
apply to all recruiters). They don't even send you an e-mail to say
....go look for a new opportunity. I mean, it only takes 5 seconds
right? I took 1 week of my time to talk to you and you do not have 5
seconds to say..."Hey, it did not work but maybe next time?"

Also....I had one recruiter call me every 2 weeks to have me rely
information about the company hiring procedures. He wanted to know if
anyone was being hired directly by the company instead of his recruiting
company. So....I try not to be on either side..I am neutral. But
man...you come to me to ask me questions but when I go to you to ask you
questions you just ignore me? What kind of recruiter-to-programmer
relationship is that?

This is not an attack on recruiters. My experience with recruiting
companies is OK. Will I work with recruiters in the future. YES.
Everybody is entitled to making mistakes right? I am sure they also have
a lot to tell about programmers too.

This is just my $0.02 cents,
Ravi.


Jerry Johnson wrote:
> I was (mostly) kidding.
>
> But many programmers and tech types do not realize how _hard_ placement
folk
> work to get someone into a job.
>
> It seems like free money when you see how much they added to your
> contracting rate, or how much you hear they get paid per permanent
> placement, but believe it or not it is a difficult job.
>
> You _need_ to divorce personal feelings for each client from the equation.
> It is easy to get paralyzed with "I _need_ a job this week, or I lose my
> house (my children are sick, my mother-in-law lives with us, etc)", but
you
> cannot let it get to you. You need to be able to take 30 rejections in
> stride, and swing just as hard, with as much patience and professionalism
as
> you did on the first. And you need to be able to
>
> In the glory days of the dot com era it was an easy job. (pick one resume
at
> random from column a, match with one job opening from column b, profit!)
>
> But companies (for the most part) are much smarter in their hiring. and
tech
> staff are much more skittish after bad experiences. So matchmaking is
> important if you want any follow on placements.
>
> The skillset that makes a good recruiter, in my opinion, are very
specific.
> As Rob mentions below, they need to leave the tech staff feeling decent
> (even if turned down), need to leave the company feeling good (whether you
> place a person or not, you still want them to keep your card for next
time.
> Because there will be a next time). You need for your recruiting company
to

> feel you are contributing. And you need to feel pretty good about what you
> are doing (and how you are doing it) or the smudges on your soul get
> overwhelming and over time very obvious to others.
>
> I don't have the right skills, but I respect the skills in others and can
> recognize people that do have it all when I meet them.
>
>
>
> On Thu, Mar 12, 2009 at 5:03 PM, Rich Baker <RichB@...> wrote:
>
>  
>> Wow... Probably should have exercised better judgment than in sending
>> that email to the whole group... - To each his own
>>
>> Richard E. Baker | TEAM Information Services
>>
>>    
>
>
>

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[Scott Brady]

One thing to keep in mind (that I haven't seen mentioned yet) is that
this is a difficult time for recruiters.  If companies aren't hiring as
much as they used to, then you have a lot more recruiters trying to fill
fewer positions.

Our company IS hiring a lot now, and the recruiters seem to be a lot
more desperate now.  We have a decent relationship with two different
recruiting companies, so we tend to ignore all of the other calls.  (Our
preferred company actually met with the IT team and provided lunch one
day to help them find better-fitting candidates. And, we've hired
several good hires through them [and a few clunkers]) -- this was before
the economy went all to hell.

Scott

Scott Stewart wrote:
> Hey all,
>
>  
>
> Since there's a large number of recruiters on this list, I've been
> wondering.
>
> How does one break into technical recruiting?
>



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[Ravi Gehlot]

The best way to find a job is to go directly to the company in need of a
programmer. I know of a very few programmers who are able to find jobs
without the help of a recruiter. I spoke to one of these lucky
programmers and that person told me that he started building his peers
when he was still in school. He was a senior at his university in
California and he had a job sponsored by the school. He made friends
with his computer science teachers and university staff. So when he
needs a job he goes back to his peers. But attention, it began at
school. Most students do not take school seriously and when they go out
on their own to find jobs..BOOM...a slap in the face.

So this is my advise to you...if you are an undergraduate at your
university. Build your network there. There are good smart people there
that can help you. The University can co-op a job for you if you have
good grades. Explore with teachers also...most of those teachers know
people who work in high-end companies and they can hook you up if you
are a hard working student. But you have to show discipline and you have
to show that you are interested. Nobody is going to look at you if you
do not go after people unless you are a genius and everybody knows you.

Another way to find jobs without the help of recruiters is to
participate in meetings. At times there is always some programmer from
some company attending the meetings and he is also there looking for
extra help. I have seen people refer each other from meetings. You can
attend your local ColdFusion meeting or you can attend a local business
meeting. Whatever it is. If you do not market yourself then you will not
be known. People are not going to knock your door and say: "Come work
for us".

I would to emphasize.....recruiters are NOT bad peers. You just gotta
know how to work with them. I guess at the end of the day if you can pay
your bills with that pay check then who cares how you got the job. Also,
try to hear from recruiters on their experience. I am sure there is
always 2 sides to a coin.

Good Luck,
Ravi.



Ravi Gehlot wrote:

> Just my $0.02 cents...I think that recruiters do help one get a job.
> Yes, most recruiters are all about business but who is not? They try to
> get you in and if they can not then they go on to the next one. This is
> just the nature of their business. They gotta make it work and in order
> to make it work they have to move fast and find the right candidate for
> the right position.
>
> That's fine. However, what I do not agree with is the fact that most of
> these recruiters are extremely friendly at first and then it all changes
> afterwards. I have heard this from most programmers. This is not just
> coming from me. Also, if they can not get you the job that they have
> been trying to then they also vanish without a trace (this does not
> apply to all recruiters). They don't even send you an e-mail to say
> ....go look for a new opportunity. I mean, it only takes 5 seconds
> right? I took 1 week of my time to talk to you and you do not have 5
> seconds to say..."Hey, it did not work but maybe next time?"
>
> Also....I had one recruiter call me every 2 weeks to have me rely
> information about the company hiring procedures. He wanted to know if
> anyone was being hired directly by the company instead of his recruiting
> company. So....I try not to be on either side..I am neutral. But
> man...you come to me to ask me questions but when I go to you to ask you
> questions you just ignore me? What kind of recruiter-to-programmer
> relationship is that?
>
> This is not an attack on recruiters. My experience with recruiting
> companies is OK. Will I work with recruiters in the future. YES.
> Everybody is entitled to making mistakes right? I am sure they also have
> a lot to tell about programmers too.
>
> This is just my $0.02 cents,
> Ravi.
>
>
> Jerry Johnson wrote:
>  
>> I was (mostly) kidding.
>>
>> But many programmers and tech types do not realize how _hard_ placement folk
>> work to get someone into a job.
>>
>> It seems like free money when you see how much they added to your
>> contracting rate, or how much you hear they get paid per permanent
>> placement, but believe it or not it is a difficult job.
>>
>> You _need_ to divorce personal feelings for each client from the equation.
>> It is easy to get paralyzed with "I _need_ a job this week, or I lose my
>> house (my children are sick, my mother-in-law lives with us, etc)", but you
>> cannot let it get to you. You need to be able to take 30 rejections in
>> stride, and swing just as hard, with as much patience and professionalism as
>> you did on the first. And you need to be able to
>>
>> In the glory days of the dot com era it was an easy job. (pick one resume at
>> random from column a, match with one job opening from column b, profit!)
>>
>> But companies (for the most part) are much smarter in their hiring. and tech
>> staff are much more skittish after bad experiences. So matchmaking is
>> important if you want any follow on placements.
>>
>> The skillset that makes a good recruiter, in my opinion, are very specific.
>> As Rob mentions below, they need to leave the tech staff feeling decent
>> (even if turned down), need to leave the company feeling good (whether you
>> place a person or not, you still want them to keep your card for next time.
>> Because there will be a next time). You need for your recruiting company to
>> feel you are contributing. And you need to feel pretty good about what you
>> are doing (and how you are doing it) or the smudges on your soul get
>> overwhelming and over time very obvious to others.
>>
>> I don't have the right skills, but I respect the skills in others and can
>> recognize people that do have it all when I meet them.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Mar 12, 2009 at 5:03 PM, Rich Baker <RichB@...> wrote:
>>
>>  
>>    
>>> Wow... Probably should have exercised better judgment than in sending
>>> that email to the whole group... - To each his own
>>>
>>> Richard E. Baker | TEAM Information Services
>>>
>>>    
>>>      
>>
>>    
>
>

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[Ravi Gehlot]

Hello Scott,

Can you share with us who this good recruiting company is so maybe
people from the list may use them in the future?

Thanks,
Ravi.


Scott Brady wrote:

> One thing to keep in mind (that I haven't seen mentioned yet) is that
> this is a difficult time for recruiters.  If companies aren't hiring as
> much as they used to, then you have a lot more recruiters trying to fill
> fewer positions.
>
> Our company IS hiring a lot now, and the recruiters seem to be a lot
> more desperate now.  We have a decent relationship with two different
> recruiting companies, so we tend to ignore all of the other calls.  (Our
> preferred company actually met with the IT team and provided lunch one
> day to help them find better-fitting candidates. And, we've hired
> several good hires through them [and a few clunkers]) -- this was before
> the economy went all to hell.
>
> Scott
>
> Scott Stewart wrote:
>  
>> Hey all,
>>
>>  
>>
>> Since there's a large number of recruiters on this list, I've been
>> wondering.
>>
>> How does one break into technical recruiting?
>>
>>    
>
>
>
>

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[Scott Brady]

Sure. It's Modis (www.modis.com).  I don't know if the whole company
does what the Denver office does, so it's possible not all Modis offices
are good.

(Our contact provides yummy treats when a new employee starts, so it's
possible I'm just easily-swayed by goodies.)

Scott

Ravi Gehlot wrote:
> Hello Scott,
>
> Can you share with us who this good recruiting company is so maybe
> people from the list may use them in the future?
>
> Thanks,
> Ravi.



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[Ravi Gehlot]

Thanks for sharing Scott.

Ravi.



Scott Brady wrote:

> Sure. It's Modis (www.modis.com).  I don't know if the whole company
> does what the Denver office does, so it's possible not all Modis offices
> are good.
>
> (Our contact provides yummy treats when a new employee starts, so it's
> possible I'm just easily-swayed by goodies.)
>
> Scott
>
> Ravi Gehlot wrote:
>  
>> Hello Scott,
>>
>> Can you share with us who this good recruiting company is so maybe
>> people from the list may use them in the future?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Ravi.
>>    
>
>
>
>

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[Scott Stewart-9]

I've worked with both, if I do go down this road I know who I don't want to
be and that the guy who recruits by attrition. I've been the recipient of
the fishing email and phone calls dozens of times, and it's never panned
out.

Someone with horribly broken English calls about a job half way across the
country and my first response is "are they considering telecommuters", the
answer is usually no, or "what?".

My next question is "is your client willing to contract a relocation company
to move myself and my wife and buy our house". The answer again is usually
no, and then they ask if I'm willing to rent an apartment wherever the job
is, my answer is always no, because by this point, their asking me to take a
financial loss to work for their client.

On the other hand there are a handful of recruiters with whom I have had
very very successful relationships with, and one in particular who has
become a pretty good friend.. why, because they're honest stand up people
who look at prospective employment candidates as something more than just an
email address or a means to fulfill US State Department guidelines, to bring
in H1B Visas candidates.

--
Scott Stewart
ColdFusion Developer
4405 Oakshyre Way
Raleigh, NC 27616
(h) 919.874.6229 (c) 703.220.2835

-----Original Message-----
From: William Seiter [mailto:William@...]
Sent: Friday, March 13, 2009 12:50 PM
To: cf-jobs-talk
Subject: RE: Thinking of a career change.. how does one get into Technical
Recruiting..


Some technical recruiters work with the concepts of a fisherman's net.  They
will catch anyone and everyone for a position, good fit or not.

Whenever a recruiter contacts me I take control of the conversation, as I
have gotten tired of driving all the way down to 'their' office to fill out
their paperwork, just to find out that the job they called me about was not
suited for me or my experience levels.

Just one story of why it pays to take control of the conversation.  I was
called by a recruiter who was asking me about my skills for a position she
had to fill.  After about 15 minutes of talking she said she saw that I had
expert skills in Java.  I asked her where she saw this and she told me the
name of a popular resume site.  I immediately pulled up my resume there and
looked at it to verify that I was not misrepresenting myself and saw that I
made no mention of Java at all in my resume.

I am sure many of you have dealt with this yourselves.

I told her that I did not have expert skills in Java, and asked her if it
was pertinent to the job position.  She said it was in the list of required
skills and she said that she saw it, then she read to me the line I wrote in
that resume describing my Javascript skills.  

I told her that Javascript is a completely different language from Java.  To
her credit, she did ask me to explain to her the differences.  I did.  At
least she, hopefully, won't make the same mistake in a future recruitment,
but if she hadn't been very conversational, I would have wasted my time
going to the interview.

I guess I am saying this to you, if you choose to join the ranks of the
recruiter, make sure you understand what you are looking for.  And if, like
so many HR departments do, the requirements look like 'programmer soup' as
opposed to a specific requirement, ask the HR department to speak directly
to the supervisor who needs the employee.  The more knowledgeable of the
position you are, the better you present yourself.  Looking for a web
programmer for a specific company who has to have 8 years of experience in:
CF, ASP, .NET, C#, PERL, PHP, C++, JAVA, JavaScript, HTML, PHOTOSHOP, et al
Is the same as saying you don't know what you are looking for, unless the
actual job description describes why all of the same kinds of programming
languages.


------------------
William E. Seiter
 
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-----Original Message-----
From: Ravi Gehlot [mailto:ravi@...]
Sent: Friday, March 13, 2009 8:02 AM
To: cf-jobs-talk
Subject: Re: Thinking of a career change.. how does one get into Technical
Recruiting..


Just my $0.02 cents...I think that recruiters do help one get a job.
Yes, most recruiters are all about business but who is not? They try to
get you in and if they can not then they go on to the next one. This is
just the nature of their business. They gotta make it work and in order
to make it work they have to move fast and find the right candidate for
the right position.

That's fine. However, what I do not agree with is the fact that most of
these recruiters are extremely friendly at first and then it all changes
afterwards. I have heard this from most programmers. This is not just
coming from me. Also, if they can not get you the job that they have
been trying to then they also vanish without a trace (this does not
apply to all recruiters). They don't even send you an e-mail to say
....go look for a new opportunity. I mean, it only takes 5 seconds
right? I took 1 week of my time to talk to you and you do not have 5
seconds to say..."Hey, it did not work but maybe next time?"

Also....I had one recruiter call me every 2 weeks to have me rely
information about the company hiring procedures. He wanted to know if
anyone was being hired directly by the company instead of his recruiting
company. So....I try not to be on either side..I am neutral. But
man...you come to me to ask me questions but when I go to you to ask you
questions you just ignore me? What kind of recruiter-to-programmer
relationship is that?

This is not an attack on recruiters. My experience with recruiting
companies is OK. Will I work with recruiters in the future. YES.
Everybody is entitled to making mistakes right? I am sure they also have
a lot to tell about programmers too.

This is just my $0.02 cents,
Ravi.


Jerry Johnson wrote:
> I was (mostly) kidding.
>
> But many programmers and tech types do not realize how _hard_ placement
folk
> work to get someone into a job.
>
> It seems like free money when you see how much they added to your
> contracting rate, or how much you hear they get paid per permanent
> placement, but believe it or not it is a difficult job.
>
> You _need_ to divorce personal feelings for each client from the equation.
> It is easy to get paralyzed with "I _need_ a job this week, or I lose my
> house (my children are sick, my mother-in-law lives with us, etc)", but
you
> cannot let it get to you. You need to be able to take 30 rejections in
> stride, and swing just as hard, with as much patience and professionalism
as
> you did on the first. And you need to be able to
>
> In the glory days of the dot com era it was an easy job. (pick one resume
at
> random from column a, match with one job opening from column b, profit!)
>
> But companies (for the most part) are much smarter in their hiring. and
tech
> staff are much more skittish after bad experiences. So matchmaking is
> important if you want any follow on placements.
>
> The skillset that makes a good recruiter, in my opinion, are very
specific.
> As Rob mentions below, they need to leave the tech staff feeling decent
> (even if turned down), need to leave the company feeling good (whether you
> place a person or not, you still want them to keep your card for next
time.
> Because there will be a next time). You need for your recruiting company
to

> feel you are contributing. And you need to feel pretty good about what you
> are doing (and how you are doing it) or the smudges on your soul get
> overwhelming and over time very obvious to others.
>
> I don't have the right skills, but I respect the skills in others and can
> recognize people that do have it all when I meet them.
>
>
>
> On Thu, Mar 12, 2009 at 5:03 PM, Rich Baker <RichB@...> wrote:
>
>  
>> Wow... Probably should have exercised better judgment than in sending
>> that email to the whole group... - To each his own
>>
>> Richard E. Baker | TEAM Information Services
>>
>>    
>
>
>

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