Tiki list pages

[Nelson Ko]

In tiki list pages, pages with no language set (i.e. unknown) are not
listed when I filter for "English", or whatever. They only show if I
filter for "Any language". Shouldn't they show whatever language I am
filtering for?

Nelson

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Let Crystal Reports handle the reporting - Free Crystal Reports 2008 30-Day
trial. Simplify your report design, integration and deployment - and focus on
what you do best, core application coding. Discover what's new with
Crystal Reports now.  http://p.sf.net/sfu/bobj-july
_______________________________________________
Tikiwiki-devel mailing list
Tikiwiki-devel@...
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tikiwiki-devel

[luci aka luciash d' being]

i think it is useful to show you what pages do not have a language
assigned ?

luci


On 11/05/2009 02:08 AM, Nelson Ko wrote:

> In tiki list pages, pages with no language set (i.e. unknown) are not
> listed when I filter for "English", or whatever. They only show if I
> filter for "Any language". Shouldn't they show whatever language I am
> filtering for?
>
> Nelson
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Let Crystal Reports handle the reporting - Free Crystal Reports 2008 30-Day
> trial. Simplify your report design, integration and deployment - and focus on
> what you do best, core application coding. Discover what's new with
> Crystal Reports now.  http://p.sf.net/sfu/bobj-july
> _______________________________________________
> Tikiwiki-devel mailing list
> Tikiwiki-devel@...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tikiwiki-devel
>
> -------------------------------------------
> Modern Hosting PIPNI - http://www.pipni.cz/
>
>  

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Let Crystal Reports handle the reporting - Free Crystal Reports 2008 30-Day
trial. Simplify your report design, integration and deployment - and focus on
what you do best, core application coding. Discover what's new with
Crystal Reports now.  http://p.sf.net/sfu/bobj-july
_______________________________________________
Tikiwiki-devel mailing list
Tikiwiki-devel@...
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tikiwiki-devel

[Desilets, Alain]

> In tiki list pages, pages with no language set (i.e. unknown) are not
> listed when I filter for "English", or whatever. They only show if I
> filter for "Any language". Shouldn't they show whatever language I am
> filtering for?

It could go either way.

When a page's language is unspecified, it means we don't know what
language it's in. So, if you asked to only see English pages, the system
would be "taking a chance" by showing you pages with unspecified
language. But in certain circumstances, it might make sense to take that
chance. Can you provide a specific use scenario where the current
behavior (of NOT taking that chance) is causing problems?

But of course, if you ask for "Any language", then the system should
show you all pages, even ones for which it doesn't know the language,
and this is what the system currently does.

BTW: I am not sure that having an "unspecified" language is a good idea
in the first place. It seems to me that when a page is created, the user
should (with assistance from the system) choose what language it is in.

By "assistance from the system", I mean things like this.

If I search for a page in say, French, and it does not exist, then the
CREATE PAGE button should by default set the language of this new page
to French (that's what it does in the Terminology module).

If I am on say, a French page, and I create a link to a non-existing
page from there, then if I click on the ? for that link, the system
should by default set the new page's language to French.

If I create a new page and there is no hint as to its language (ex: I
created it with QuickEdit), then the system should by default set the
language to the default language of the site (typically English).

That way, when you create a new page, the system takes an educated guess
at what its language should be, but the user can always override it
before the page is actually created.

Alain

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Let Crystal Reports handle the reporting - Free Crystal Reports 2008 30-Day
trial. Simplify your report design, integration and deployment - and focus on
what you do best, core application coding. Discover what's new with
Crystal Reports now.  http://p.sf.net/sfu/bobj-july
_______________________________________________
Tikiwiki-devel mailing list
Tikiwiki-devel@...
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tikiwiki-devel

[Marc Laporte-3]

Hi!

It's tricky to remove "unknown", because the multilingual feature
could be activated after the site has many pages.

Sometimes, I would like an option for "multilingual" pages.

Say a page mostly has multilingual content (like images, including
content, etc), I may want to avoid duplicating it and use
http://doc.tikiwiki.org/PluginLang to have a few translated snippets
here & there.

Since there is no multilingual, I leave the page at unknown language.
I don't know if it's still the case, but it used to be impossible to,
for example, revert from "French" to "unknown"

Best regards,

M ;-)


On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 4:52 AM, Desilets, Alain
<Alain.Desilets@...> wrote:

>> In tiki list pages, pages with no language set (i.e. unknown) are not
>> listed when I filter for "English", or whatever. They only show if I
>> filter for "Any language". Shouldn't they show whatever language I am
>> filtering for?
>
> It could go either way.
>
> When a page's language is unspecified, it means we don't know what
> language it's in. So, if you asked to only see English pages, the system
> would be "taking a chance" by showing you pages with unspecified
> language. But in certain circumstances, it might make sense to take that
> chance. Can you provide a specific use scenario where the current
> behavior (of NOT taking that chance) is causing problems?
>
> But of course, if you ask for "Any language", then the system should
> show you all pages, even ones for which it doesn't know the language,
> and this is what the system currently does.
>
> BTW: I am not sure that having an "unspecified" language is a good idea
> in the first place. It seems to me that when a page is created, the user
> should (with assistance from the system) choose what language it is in.
>
> By "assistance from the system", I mean things like this.
>
> If I search for a page in say, French, and it does not exist, then the
> CREATE PAGE button should by default set the language of this new page
> to French (that's what it does in the Terminology module).
>
> If I am on say, a French page, and I create a link to a non-existing
> page from there, then if I click on the ? for that link, the system
> should by default set the new page's language to French.
>
> If I create a new page and there is no hint as to its language (ex: I
> created it with QuickEdit), then the system should by default set the
> language to the default language of the site (typically English).
>
> That way, when you create a new page, the system takes an educated guess
> at what its language should be, but the user can always override it
> before the page is actually created.
>
> Alain
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Let Crystal Reports handle the reporting - Free Crystal Reports 2008 30-Day
> trial. Simplify your report design, integration and deployment - and focus on
> what you do best, core application coding. Discover what's new with
> Crystal Reports now.  http://p.sf.net/sfu/bobj-july
> _______________________________________________
> Tikiwiki-devel mailing list
> Tikiwiki-devel@...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tikiwiki-devel
>

--
Marc Laporte

http://MarcLaporte.com
http://TikiWiki.org/MarcLaporte
http://AvanTech.net
http://OurWiki.net

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Let Crystal Reports handle the reporting - Free Crystal Reports 2008 30-Day
trial. Simplify your report design, integration and deployment - and focus on
what you do best, core application coding. Discover what's new with
Crystal Reports now.  http://p.sf.net/sfu/bobj-july
_______________________________________________
Tikiwiki-devel mailing list
Tikiwiki-devel@...
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tikiwiki-devel

[Desilets, Alain]

> It's tricky to remove "unknown", because the multilingual feature
> could be activated after the site has many pages.

Goood point.

> Sometimes, I would like an option for "multilingual" pages.
>
> Say a page mostly has multilingual content (like images, including
> content, etc), I may want to avoid duplicating it and use
> http://doc.tikiwiki.org/PluginLang to have a few translated snippets
> here & there.

Good point too.

The two points you make seem to argue for having two additional language
labels besides actual languages.

Unknown: means we don't know the language of this page. In particular,
if a page was created before multilingual features were enabled, it will
have this label.

Language-neutral: means this page does not depend on a particular
language. So if it only contains images, you would tag it with that.
When a page is language neutral, you can't translate it to other
languages, although you can change it to be in an actual language later.

That still leaves the question of what happens to those pages when you
search for English pages. Do you include Language-neutral pages or not?
Do you include Unknown languages or not? I don't really have clear idea
of what the "right thing" is in this case.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Let Crystal Reports handle the reporting - Free Crystal Reports 2008 30-Day
trial. Simplify your report design, integration and deployment - and focus on
what you do best, core application coding. Discover what's new with
Crystal Reports now.  http://p.sf.net/sfu/bobj-july
_______________________________________________
Tikiwiki-devel mailing list
Tikiwiki-devel@...
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tikiwiki-devel

[Desilets, Alain]

http://dev.tikiwiki.org/tiki-view_tracker_item.php?itemId=1386&trackerId
=5&show=view&reloff=6&cant=1495&status=o&trackerId=5&sort_mode=f_41_desc

This is blocking me right now, cause I need to make a change to the
watch icons, and I can't test them without activating the Wiki Watch
feature.

Incidentally, there seems to be a bug in the bug report system. When I
submitted the above bug report, it told me:

---
Thank you for sumitting:

    Can't login as admin for the first time
---

But " Can't login as admin for the first time " is the bug report which
I submitted yesterday!

Alain

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Let Crystal Reports handle the reporting - Free Crystal Reports 2008 30-Day
trial. Simplify your report design, integration and deployment - and focus on
what you do best, core application coding. Discover what's new with
Crystal Reports now.  http://p.sf.net/sfu/bobj-july
_______________________________________________
Tikiwiki-devel mailing list
Tikiwiki-devel@...
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tikiwiki-devel

[Jean-Marc Libs]

On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 3:38 PM, Desilets, Alain
<Alain.Desilets@...> wrote:
>> It's tricky to remove "unknown", because the multilingual feature
>> could be activated after the site has many pages.
>
> Goood point.

Yes. Plus, I can imagine that it would also be appropriate for a
single unplanned italian page in a multilingual site which is
configured for english+french only.

>> Sometimes, I would like an option for "multilingual" pages.
>>
>> Say a page mostly has multilingual content (like images, including
>> content, etc), I may want to avoid duplicating it and use
>> http://doc.tikiwiki.org/PluginLang to have a few translated snippets
>> here & there.
>
> Good point too.
>
> The two points you make seem to argue for having two additional language
> labels besides actual languages.
>
> Unknown: means we don't know the language of this page. In particular,
> if a page was created before multilingual features were enabled, it will
> have this label.
>
> Language-neutral: means this page does not depend on a particular
> language. So if it only contains images, you would tag it with that.
> When a page is language neutral, you can't translate it to other
> languages, although you can change it to be in an actual language later.
>
> That still leaves the question of what happens to those pages when you
> search for English pages. Do you include Language-neutral pages or not?
> Do you include Unknown languages or not? I don't really have clear idea
> of what the "right thing" is in this case.

It seems to me that this could be adressed by a "Unknown" label in the
language search.
This way, they would be searchable by themselves.
It does not make sense to have them appear in every other search type,
just on the hope that they may be relevant.

Jyhem

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Let Crystal Reports handle the reporting - Free Crystal Reports 2008 30-Day
trial. Simplify your report design, integration and deployment - and focus on
what you do best, core application coding. Discover what's new with
Crystal Reports now.  http://p.sf.net/sfu/bobj-july
_______________________________________________
Tikiwiki-devel mailing list
Tikiwiki-devel@...
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tikiwiki-devel

[Desilets, Alain]

> This way, they would be searchable by themselves.
> It does not make sense to have them appear in every other search type,
> just on the hope that they may be relevant.

That is my impression too, but the fact that Nelson expected that to
happen tells me that there might be scenarios where this would be the
right thing to do. Nelson, can you tell us more?



------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Let Crystal Reports handle the reporting - Free Crystal Reports 2008 30-Day
trial. Simplify your report design, integration and deployment - and focus on
what you do best, core application coding. Discover what's new with
Crystal Reports now.  http://p.sf.net/sfu/bobj-july
_______________________________________________
Tikiwiki-devel mailing list
Tikiwiki-devel@...
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tikiwiki-devel

[Nelson Ko]

well, in my case I actually created a wiki page using the "wikify"
feature from the notepad, which resulted in an unknown language page.
When I went to "list pages", I did not see the page as the selector
was defaulted to my current language, which is english. This kind of
freaked me out and it took me a while to notice that the filter was
defaulted to English and that was when I tried "Any language" which
was when the page appeared.

Perhaps that "wikify" feature should be changed to automatically set
the language or perhaps the default for the filter on list pages
should be any language (but I can see that being irritating on a
multilingual site). Also, I haven't (and should) check the other
situations where pages are created automatically, like in structures
for example, where there might be no change to specify the language of
the page created. Pages created through profiles also could or not
have a language set. IN general, if the multilingual feature is turned
on later, all pages before it would have unknown language.

My concern mainly is that pages with unknown language gets lost... It
might also be good to be able to list pages with no language, so
someone can go and set the language (after multilingual is turned on).
Perhaps a checkbox for "show pages with no language" in list-pages
would fulfil this purpose better than adding "Unknown" to the drop
down list...

On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 12:02 PM, Desilets, Alain
<Alain.Desilets@...> wrote:

>> This way, they would be searchable by themselves.
>> It does not make sense to have them appear in every other search type,
>> just on the hope that they may be relevant.
>
> That is my impression too, but the fact that Nelson expected that to
> happen tells me that there might be scenarios where this would be the
> right thing to do. Nelson, can you tell us more?
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Let Crystal Reports handle the reporting - Free Crystal Reports 2008 30-Day
> trial. Simplify your report design, integration and deployment - and focus on
> what you do best, core application coding. Discover what's new with
> Crystal Reports now.  http://p.sf.net/sfu/bobj-july
> _______________________________________________
> Tikiwiki-devel mailing list
> Tikiwiki-devel@...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tikiwiki-devel
>

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Let Crystal Reports handle the reporting - Free Crystal Reports 2008 30-Day
trial. Simplify your report design, integration and deployment - and focus on
what you do best, core application coding. Discover what's new with
Crystal Reports now.  http://p.sf.net/sfu/bobj-july
_______________________________________________
Tikiwiki-devel mailing list
Tikiwiki-devel@...
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tikiwiki-devel

[Desilets, Alain]

> Perhaps that "wikify" feature should be changed to automatically set
the
> language

I think that would be a good thing. The question is... to what language
should it set it? Maybe ask the user what language to wikify the page in
(if multilingual is enabled on the site)?

> My concern mainly is that pages with unknown language gets lost...

That is an issue indeed.

Maybe if we include Unknown language pages when searching for English
will not be that much of an issue, because pages will only show up if
they happen to contain the search term. And since the search will be in
English, most pages will not be picked up unless they are in English.

Another thing we could do is to use a statistical language guesser to
assign a language to pages who are set to Unknown. I.e., everytime the
user saves a page, if that page is set to Unknown, we run the language
guesser. If the guesser is pretty confident that it is say, in Chinese,
it will tell the  user "Hey, this page looks like it's in Chinese. Is
it?".


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Let Crystal Reports handle the reporting - Free Crystal Reports 2008 30-Day
trial. Simplify your report design, integration and deployment - and focus on
what you do best, core application coding. Discover what's new with
Crystal Reports now.  http://p.sf.net/sfu/bobj-july
_______________________________________________
Tikiwiki-devel mailing list
Tikiwiki-devel@...
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tikiwiki-devel

[Sylvie Greverend-3]

+1 to rollback to the tiki3 behavior: By default,   any language is
selected. I lost also a lot of time to look for pages with this behavior
change.

On Thu, 2009-11-05 at 14:25 -0500, Nelson Ko wrote:

> well, in my case I actually created a wiki page using the "wikify"
> feature from the notepad, which resulted in an unknown language page.
> When I went to "list pages", I did not see the page as the selector
> was defaulted to my current language, which is english. This kind of
> freaked me out and it took me a while to notice that the filter was
> defaulted to English and that was when I tried "Any language" which
> was when the page appeared.
>
> Perhaps that "wikify" feature should be changed to automatically set
> the language or perhaps the default for the filter on list pages
> should be any language (but I can see that being irritating on a
> multilingual site). Also, I haven't (and should) check the other
> situations where pages are created automatically, like in structures
> for example, where there might be no change to specify the language of
> the page created. Pages created through profiles also could or not
> have a language set. IN general, if the multilingual feature is turned
> on later, all pages before it would have unknown language.
>
> My concern mainly is that pages with unknown language gets lost... It
> might also be good to be able to list pages with no language, so
> someone can go and set the language (after multilingual is turned on).
> Perhaps a checkbox for "show pages with no language" in list-pages
> would fulfil this purpose better than adding "Unknown" to the drop
> down list...
>
> On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 12:02 PM, Desilets, Alain
> <Alain.Desilets@...> wrote:
> >> This way, they would be searchable by themselves.
> >> It does not make sense to have them appear in every other search type,
> >> just on the hope that they may be relevant.
> >
> > That is my impression too, but the fact that Nelson expected that to
> > happen tells me that there might be scenarios where this would be the
> > right thing to do. Nelson, can you tell us more?
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Let Crystal Reports handle the reporting - Free Crystal Reports 2008 30-Day
> > trial. Simplify your report design, integration and deployment - and focus on
> > what you do best, core application coding. Discover what's new with
> > Crystal Reports now.  http://p.sf.net/sfu/bobj-july
> > _______________________________________________
> > Tikiwiki-devel mailing list
> > Tikiwiki-devel@...
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tikiwiki-devel
> >
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Let Crystal Reports handle the reporting - Free Crystal Reports 2008 30-Day
> trial. Simplify your report design, integration and deployment - and focus on
> what you do best, core application coding. Discover what's new with
> Crystal Reports now.  http://p.sf.net/sfu/bobj-july
> _______________________________________________
> Tikiwiki-devel mailing list
> Tikiwiki-devel@...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tikiwiki-devel

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Let Crystal Reports handle the reporting - Free Crystal Reports 2008 30-Day
trial. Simplify your report design, integration and deployment - and focus on
what you do best, core application coding. Discover what's new with
Crystal Reports now.  http://p.sf.net/sfu/bobj-july
_______________________________________________
Tikiwiki-devel mailing list
Tikiwiki-devel@...
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tikiwiki-devel