Transpose Command

[Amiable]

Hi,  New user to Lilypond; a convert from Finale2009.   My use of music notation is for transposition, mainly.   I can't afford an A clarinet at present, so I need to tranpose A clarinet parts for my Bb clarinet.   When I follow the manual, I don't get good results.   Example:  A clarinet part starts in F and ends in F.   There's a B major change in the middle.   This command does well with the F key signature sections but results in double sharps in the B major section instead of Bb major:   \transpose f e {

Here's the .ly file.   Seems I need to wrap each key section in a transpose command but I can't learn how to do this.

Appreciate suggestions.

Regards,
RDLscene_1stclar.ly

[Francisco Vila-5]

2009/7/6 Amiable <buffet1150tos@...>:
>
> Hi,  New user to Lilypond; a convert from Finale2009.   My use of music
> notation is for transposition, mainly.   I can't afford an A clarinet at
> present, so I need to tranpose A clarinet parts for my Bb clarinet.   When I
> follow the manual, I don't get good results.   Example:  A clarinet part
> starts in F and ends in F.   There's a B major change in the middle.   This
> command does well with the F key signature sections but results in double
> sharps in the B major section instead of Bb major:   \transpose f e {

This is correct and not a fault of lilypond. Transposing F to E gives
an increase of 5 sharps, B major has 5, this makes 10 total, i.e. 7
sharps + 3 double-sharps.

I am pretty sure the common practice for this type of instrumental
transposing is to simplify the signature when the original has many
sharps. So yes, you have to do it by sections.

What I'd do is to enclose the section in B major into \transpose cis
des { } thus gaining 5 extra flats in the key.

--
Francisco Vila. Badajoz (Spain)
www.paconet.org


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[Francisco Vila-5]

2009/7/6 Francisco Vila <paconet.org@...>:

> What I'd do is to enclose the section in B major into \transpose cis
> des { } thus gaining 5 extra flats in the key.

... which leads to two new problems: octave changes and relative
doesn't work. The fragment is short and you can fix all pitches
easily:

\transpose cis des {
        \key b \major
        cis''8 ) r b' ( ais'
        gis'->\f ) r r4
        R2*20 \bar "||" \mark #27
}


--
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www.paconet.org


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[James E. Bailey-3]

On 06.07.2009, at 18:06, Amiable wrote:

Hi,  New user to Lilypond; a convert from Finale2009.   My use of music

notation is for transposition, mainly.   I can't afford an A clarinet at

present, so I need to tranpose A clarinet parts for my Bb clarinet.   When I

follow the manual, I don't get good results.   Example:  A clarinet part

starts in F and ends in F.   There's a B major change in the middle.   This

command does well with the F key signature sections but results in double

sharps in the B major section instead of Bb major:   \transpose f e {

Here's the .ly file.   Seems I need to wrap each key section in a transpose

command but I can't learn how to do this.

Appreciate suggestions.

I'm assuming the middle section should be in b-flat major instead of a-sharp major? if you wrap the b-major section with

\transpose ais' a' {

 \relative {

  \key b \major

  ...

 }

}

You should get what you're looking for.

James E. Bailey

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[Francisco Vila-5]

2009/7/6 James E. Bailey <derhindemith@...>:

>
> On 06.07.2009, at 18:06, Amiable wrote:
>
> Hi,  New user to Lilypond; a convert from Finale2009.   My use of music
> notation is for transposition, mainly.   I can't afford an A clarinet at
> present, so I need to tranpose A clarinet parts for my Bb clarinet.   When I
> follow the manual, I don't get good results.   Example:  A clarinet part
> starts in F and ends in F.   There's a B major change in the middle.   This
> command does well with the F key signature sections but results in double
> sharps in the B major section instead of Bb major:   \transpose f e {
> Here's the .ly file.   Seems I need to wrap each key section in a transpose
> command but I can't learn how to do this.
> Appreciate suggestions.
>
> I'm assuming the middle section
> should be in b-flat major instead of a-sharp major? if you wrap the b-major
> section with
> \transpose ais' a' {
>  \relative {
>   \key b \major
>   ...
>  }
> }

This effectively transposes the music, I'd rather say \transpose ais
bes { } to keep everything in its place.

--
Francisco Vila. Badajoz (Spain)
www.paconet.org


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[Hans Aberg]

On 6 Jul 2009, at 18:49, Francisco Vila wrote:

>> I'm assuming the middle section
>> should be in b-flat major instead of a-sharp major? if you wrap the  
>> b-major
>> section with
>> \transpose ais' a' {
>>  \relative {
>>   \key b \major
>>   ...
>>  }
>> }
>
> This effectively transposes the music, I'd rather say \transpose ais
> bes { } to keep everything in its place.

Let me try:

The part is written A and should be transposed to be in Bb. So the  
normal thing would be
   \transpose bes a {
     % part in A.
   }

To get a 12-equal enharmonic equivalent transposition, one these  
should be replaced with the enharmonic equivalent, for example A#  
instead of Bb. So
   \transpose ais a {
     % part in A
   }

   Hans




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[Arno Waschk]

Hans Aberg wrote:

On 6 Jul 2009, at 18:49, Francisco Vila wrote:

>> I'm assuming the middle section
>> should be in b-flat major instead of a-sharp major? if you wrap the  
>> b-major
>> section with
>> \transpose ais' a' {
>>  \relative {
>>   \key b \major
>>   ...
>>  }
>> }
>
> This effectively transposes the music, I'd rather say \transpose ais
> bes { } to keep everything in its place.

Let me try:

The part is written A and should be transposed to be in Bb. So the  
normal thing would be
   \transpose bes a {
     % part in A.
   }

To get a 12-equal enharmonic equivalent transposition, one these  
should be replaced with the enharmonic equivalent, for example A#  
instead of Bb. So
   \transpose ais a {
     % part in A
   }

   Hans




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... which solves the B major part, but transposes f major to Fb major, which is even more horrible to read than a# major...

but while we are at it:
why don't \transpose and \relative cooperate the "normal" way an innocent musician might expect?
in similar cases i am getting single notes in the wrong octave, and the like...
is that a bug or a feature?

yours, arno

[Hans Aberg]

On 6 Jul 2009, at 23:15, ArnoWaschk wrote:

>> Let me try:
>>
>> The part is written A and should be transposed to be in Bb. So the
>> normal thing would be
>>   \transpose bes a {
>>     % part in A.
>>   }
>>
>> To get a 12-equal enharmonic equivalent transposition, one these
>> should be replaced with the enharmonic equivalent, for example A#
>> instead of Bb. So
>>   \transpose ais a {
>>     % part in A
>>   }

> ... which solves the B major part, but transposes f major to Fb  
> major, which
> is even more horrible to read than a# major...
>
> but while we are at it:
> why don't \transpose and \relative cooperate the "normal" way an  
> innocent
> musician might expect?

The problem is that somewhere in the second half of the 20th century  
people start to believe that the 12 equal temperament is the basis of  
Western music :-), whereas the notation system is designed before  
that, to work with any diatonic tuning system (i.e., built up by minor  
and major seconds). In an extended meantone or Pythagorean tuning, for  
example F# and Gb are not the same notes.

LilyPond does the correct thing, and adheres to the conventions of the  
notation system. It means that 12-ET enharmonic equivalences must be  
applied explicitly. The notation system is not designed for 12-equal  
temperament.

The normal way to write music for instruments that are not fixed pitch  
tuned to 12-ET is to apply enharmonic equivalence as a notational  
simplification. Strictly speaking, this implies a small slip in pitch,  
but human performers will adapt to smooth it out. However, if these  
pitches are played exactly, they can be heard, and may produce strong  
unwanted beats.

   Hans




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[Francisco Vila-5]

2009/7/6 ArnoWaschk <hamamatsu@...>:

> Hans Aberg wrote:
>>
>> On 6 Jul 2009, at 18:49, Francisco Vila wrote:
>>
>>>> I'm assuming the middle section
>>>> should be in b-flat major instead of a-sharp major? if you wrap the
>>>> b-major
>>>> section with
>>>> \transpose ais' a' {
>>>>  \relative {
>>>>   \key b \major
>>>>   ...
>>>>  }
>>>> }
>>>
>>> This effectively transposes the music, I'd rather say \transpose ais
>>> bes { } to keep everything in its place.
>>
>> Let me try:
>>
>> The part is written A and should be transposed to be in Bb. So the
>> normal thing would be
>>    \transpose bes a {
>>      % part in A.
>>    }
>>
>> To get a 12-equal enharmonic equivalent transposition, one these
>> should be replaced with the enharmonic equivalent, for example A#
>> instead of Bb. So
>>    \transpose ais a {
>>      % part in A
>>    }
>>
>>    Hans
>>
> ... which solves the B major part, but transposes f major to Fb major, which
> is even more horrible to read than a# major...

Exactly. Doing the enharmonic thing only for the B major block solves
the problem.

> but while we are at it:
> why don't \transpose and \relative cooperate the "normal" way an innocent
> musician might expect?

To use relative mode within transposed music, an additional \relative
must be placed inside \transpose [copypasted from the docs]. Think of
it as pitches into a \transposed block belonging to a scope that is
out of reach of \relative.

I don't know how it works, but can imagine that the transpose function
should be *much* more clever than it currently is, to realize itself
it is inside a relative block. So it leaves the user with the task of
doing it manually whenever needed.

--
Francisco Vila. Badajoz (Spain)
www.paconet.org


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[Anthony W. Youngman]

In message
<7958d8c70907061548m4a1d58adocc98552164aa2b29@...>, Francisco
Vila <paconet.org@...> writes
>I don't know how it works, but can imagine that the transpose function
>should be *much* more clever than it currently is, to realize itself
>it is inside a relative block. So it leaves the user with the task of
>doing it manually whenever needed.

Actually, as I understand it (I may be wrong) it CAN'T be cleverer. The
problem is the confusion between note NAMES and note PITCHES.

When a text file is parsed by lilypond, it dumps a stream of note NAMES
into lilypond. "relative" reads that list of NAMES and converts it into
PITCHES. "transpose" on the other hand needs to work on PITCHES so if it
is fed a stream of NAMES, it converts them to pitches (thinking in
absolute mode) itself.

That's why sticking a transpose inside a relative messes up - by the
time the note gets to "relative" it's already been converted to a pitch
by "transpose", so "relative" doesn't have a name to work with. So
relative just feeds the pitch straight through - unaltered.

Cheers,
Wol
--
Anthony W. Youngman - anthony@...



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[Amiable]

Amiable wrote:

Hi,  New user to Lilypond; a convert from Finale2009.   My use of music notation is for transposition, mainly.   I can't afford an A clarinet at present, so I need to tranpose A clarinet parts for my Bb clarinet.   When I follow the manual, I don't get good results.   Example:  A clarinet part starts in F and ends in F.   There's a B major change in the middle.   This command does well with the F key signature sections but results in double sharps in the B major section instead of Bb major:   \transpose f e {

Here's the .ly file.   Seems I need to wrap each key section in a transpose command but I can't learn how to do this.

Appreciate suggestions.

Regards,
RDLscene_1stclar.ly

I had to study the help and I came up with this.   Thanks to everyone !!

scene_1stclar_inA.ly

[Mats Bengtsson-4]

In addition to all the answers you have already received, you may also
want to take a look at http://lsr.dsi.unimi.it/LSR/Item?id=266
(just as in the manual, you should click on the example score to see the
corresponding .ly code).

   /Mats

Amiable wrote:

>
> Amiable wrote:
>  
>> Hi,  New user to Lilypond; a convert from Finale2009.   My use of music
>> notation is for transposition, mainly.   I can't afford an A clarinet at
>> present, so I need to tranpose A clarinet parts for my Bb clarinet.   When
>> I follow the manual, I don't get good results.   Example:  A clarinet part
>> starts in F and ends in F.   There's a B major change in the middle.  
>> This command does well with the F key signature sections but results in
>> double sharps in the B major section instead of Bb major:   \transpose f e
>> {
>>
>> Here's the .ly file.   Seems I need to wrap each key section in a
>> transpose command but I can't learn how to do this.
>>
>> Appreciate suggestions.
>>
>> Regards,
>> RDL http://www.nabble.com/file/p24358311/scene_1stclar.ly scene_1stclar.ly
>>
>>    
>
> I had to study the help and I came up with this.   Thanks to everyone !!
>
> http://www.nabble.com/file/p24383836/scene_1stclar_inA.ly
> scene_1stclar_inA.ly
>  

--
=============================================
        Mats Bengtsson
        Signal Processing
        School of Electrical Engineering
        Royal Institute of Technology (KTH)
        SE-100 44  STOCKHOLM
        Sweden
        Phone: [phone]
        Fax:   [phone]
        Email: mats.bengtsson@...
        WWW: http://www.s3.kth.se/~mabe
=============================================



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