Utopia (?) of a new Art Project - Visual Design - Branding Identity ...

[Bernhard Dippold-2]

Hi Ivan, all,

Ivan M wrote:
> Hi Bernhard, Nik, all,
>
> This is a very important discussion,

That's the reason why I started a new thread on the topic (and for
continuity I don't cut off any parts of the previous mails).

I had quite an extensive discussion with Christoph Noack - I think all
of us share the same ideas...

> and now that I have some spare time to write a comprehensive reply, I
> would like to share some thoughts.
>
> On Mon, Oct 5, 2009 at 12:46 PM, Bernhard Dippold
> <bernhard@...> wrote: [...]
>>>>>>> We do need a new Art / Visual Design project - in a
>>>>>>> position that can work not only on marketing material,
>>>>>>> but on core graphical elements too.
>>>>>
>>>>> I know this got swept under the rug amidst a flurry of
>>>>> "trademark" technicalities, but I'd just like to know once
>>>>> and for all; Is there any point on working on an OOo logo, is
>>>>> there any talk of an update being considered anywhere on the
>>>>> horizon? version 4 even? I'm fast losing faith that OOo is
>>>>> actually OpenSource at all, given that most "official" design
>>>>> work is created by Sun and not by the community.
>>>
>>> I know your concerns - shared by many of the (former?) active
>>> members of this project.
> Bernhard, if it weren't for you, the art project would probably be
> experiencing deafening silence right now. Many of our very talented
> and active members have disappeared, and I suspect a lack of impact
> (by the Art project on OOo's artwork) would be the major cause of
> this. Personally, I was inspired to join the Art project when I saw
> your presentation at 2006 OOo Convention [1]. The vision contained
> in that presentation is yet to be realized, but I stick around
> because I am optimistic that it can be done.

I've been off the project (the entire OOo community) for nearly two
years - don't know if I had been able to realize at least parts of it...

>
> [1]
> http://marketing.openoffice.org/ooocon2006/presentations/tuesday_c3.odp
>
>
>>> Even if I'm in contact with some of the Sun people, I can't give
>>> you a positive or negative reply. If some people in the upper
>>> areas there decide to do something, it's quite hard to show them
>>> a better way...
>>>
>>> But there are signs of changes: - The new ODF related iconset [1]
>>> is presented to us explicitly asking us for comments and
>>> improvement of the design. - Implementation of these icons has
>>> been postponed because their presentation will be able to
>>> improved by the community.
>>>
>>> I see a need for a project that covers all the topics related to
>>> visual impression of OpenOffice.org - whether this would be at
>>> the desktop, on the web, in documentation or marketing.
> Yes! Christoph Noack of the UX project and I discussed something
> similar during the website refresh late last year (please see the
> appendix at the bottom of this email for the relevant extract).
> Unfortunately, due to time constraints we could not actively pursue
> this vision, but it is similar to what is being discussed in this
> thread.
>
> Now might be the time to try to take action - while there is plenty
> of time to establish the project and its influence in OOo 4.

"Plenty of time" is always too short ;-)

But you're right: Now is the best time for some action!
(Details below)

> The community needs to take a more active role to create a
> consistent, powerful and effective visual identity for OOo. The
> latest issue with the ODF mimetype icons demonstrates that the art
> project is either not well known to major decision makers, or it is
> not considered relevant/useful. It is partially up to us to make sure
> that these sorts of things do not happen again in the future.

That's the reason for me to poach in areas Stella (and Sun in general)
is used to work on her own.

Of course it's much easier and time sparing to discuss, create and
decide with the colleagues from the next office than to involve a
community of individuals with many different (sometimes strange) ideas,
educational and professional levels, and alternative designs that need
to be commented - perhaps to be integrated in your own work.

On the other hand: This is an open source project with a dedicated
sub-project. Even if the Art Project started with creating marketing
material, it became much broader in directive during the last years.
>
>>> Perhaps "Art Project" is too small as name - "Visual recognition"
>>> or "Branding Art" comes to my mind...
> Visual Design already exists [2], but Stella is the only one I can
> see taking part in it.

IIRC she built these pages in order to share her work with the
community. As she seems to be the only OOo designer at Sun, I don't
wander about other contributors to the website and the wiki.

> A lot of important branding and artwork
> activity happens on those pages, but we aren't really made aware of
> their existence or involved in what goes on.
We did know about them, but haven't been involved at all.
> Perhaps this is because
> a lot of OOo's artwork is derived from StarOffice and it is just
> assumed that OOo will have the same artwork as StarOffice (with the
> exception of, say, the splash screen and website). This is an
> assumption that we might need to challenge.

I think, that there are two or three reasons why the OOo branding
artwork is nearly totally Sun based.

  - Stella is a great designer and works a lot on OOo related artwork.
There was no need for any Sun developer to send a mail to any mailing
list, wait for discussion and reply: He just went to the office at the
other side of the corridor, told her what he imagined and got the
artwork he needed. Contacting the community would have taken much more
time. We all know about long fruitless discussions . so why bother?

- As long as only one designer creates all the branding relevant artwork
for OOo, it can be kept consistent without huge discussion and lots of
necessary documentation.

>
> [2] http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Visual_Design_Overview
>
>>> Such a project will have to be filled with life by Sun people as
>>> well as others.
> Absolutely, and also from different complementary projects that play
> a part in forming OOo's visual identity (UX, Marketing and Website
> are the most obvious examples IMO).

+1 This new project would take competences from all of the projects you
mentioned. Getting their approval will take nearly as much effort as
convincing Sun to include the project at an earlier stage of development
(thanks Stella!)
>
>>> These thoughts are not mature by now - but in such a broader
>>> project any changes to the core design could be worked on by
>>> non-Sun members too.
> By having a project where non-Sun community members can have a real
> impact on OOo's identity, we could attract more members and interest
> in the project. And with nicer, more co-ordinated artwork, we could
> attract more people to OOo. We all want to see OOo succeed, and I
> think this is an obvious way of helping to achieve that.

I don't see any major problems in finding interested people once such a
project will be active - but we need another precondition: Sun has to
involve "external" artists in their decision finding process. At other
projects this seems to work, so we'll see if there is a chance for the
Art Project too.

>>> Changes to the logo are more difficult, as the present one is
>>> trademarked as image mark. But if discussion on trademark policy
>>> and logo license would end up in introducing a second (community)
>>> logo under an open source license, this logo will probably be
>>> created by us!
>>>
>>> You see, I can't give you any "one and ever" reply - but perhaps
>>> there is more than just a silver stripe at the horizon...
> I hope so :)
>

Best regards

Bernhard

>
> ------ Appendix ------
>
> On Fri, Aug 22, 2008 at 9:42 PM, Ivan M <i2initiatives@...>
> wrote:
>>>>> [... Christoph Noack wrote:] What do you think, should we
>>>>> develop a kind of common vision when it comes to the
>>>>> application itself and its "representation" in the web? I
>>>>> don't know how this could look like - creating a short vision
>>>>> statement, bringing the Personas finally to life, think about
>>>>> the intended graphical message, ...? Any other ideas?
>>>
>>> Being an open source project, it is easy to become inconsistent
>>> - different projects handle different tasks, particularly in
>>> terms of graphics: the person that designs the splash screen is
>>> different from the person who designs the icons, and that person
>>> is different from the person that designed the website; that's
>>> great, and it's great that OpenOffice.org means different things
>>> to different people, but there are no guidelines to keep things
>>> reasonably consistent, which is what constitutes a good user
>>> experience and strengthens the brand/visual identity. Also, when
>>> it comes time to design something new (or redesign something
>>> old), the question is: what do we base the graphics on? The
>>> splash screen? The website? The icons? Or start with something
>>> completely different and add another option to this list the next
>>> time someone asks this question?
>>>
>>> Additionally, as I mentioned in a previous email, some community
>>> products like the website can have multiple contributors, each
>>> with their own style (as you pointed out with the use of rounded
>>> corners on some elements and not on others). So personally, I
>>> think a common vision is very important... if by common vision
>>> you mean a set of guidelines that help us keep things consistent
>>> in terms of design.
> You can read the full discussion starting from:
> http://ux.openoffice.org/servlets/ReadMsg?listName=discuss&msgNo=2288
>
>
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[Ivan M]

Hi Bernhard, all,

I hope that everyone on the art list will add their views on this
subject. The speedy response to the logo design proposal suggests that
there is a widespread desire to have an impact on OOo's visual
branding/artwork/design/identity, so I hope that this discussion will
become just as vibrant.

On Thu, Oct 15, 2009 at 11:27 AM, Bernhard Dippold
<bernhard@...> wrote:
[...]

>> Bernhard, if it weren't for you, the art project would probably be
>> experiencing deafening silence right now. Many of our very talented
>> and active members have disappeared, and I suspect a lack of impact
>> (by the Art project on OOo's artwork) would be the major cause of
>> this. Personally, I was inspired to join the Art project when I saw
>> your presentation at 2006 OOo Convention [1]. The vision contained
>> in that presentation is yet to be realized, but I stick around
>> because I am optimistic that it can be done.
>
> I've been off the project (the entire OOo community) for nearly two
> years - don't know if I had been able to realize at least parts of it...

There was a concerted effort, but sadly there were few concrete
outcomes. There were issues with submissions dedicated to new icons,
branding bugs, OOo's logo, splash screen, the font ... etc [1]. All
the Art project managed to influence for OOo 3 was the splash screen,
but the process there was not very collaborative (i.e., we only had
one round and no time to comment on the winning design until
afterwards).

[1] http://www.openoffice.org/issues/buglist.cgi?Submit%20query=Submit%20query&component=marketing&subcomponent=art&issue_status=NEW&issue_status=STARTED&issue_status=REOPENED&email1=&emailtype1=exact&emailassigned_to1=1&email2=&emailtype2=exact&emailreporter2=1&issueidtype=include&issue_id=&changedin=&votes=&chfieldfrom=&chfieldto=Now&chfieldvalue=&short_desc=&short_desc_type=substring&long_desc=&long_desc_type=substring&issue_file_loc=&issue_file_loc_type=substring&status_whiteboard=&status_whiteboard_type=substring&keywords=&keywords_type=anytokens&field0-0-0=noop&type0-0-0=noop&value0-0-0=&order=issues.issue_id

[...]

>> The community needs to take a more active role to create a
>> consistent, powerful and effective visual identity for OOo. The
>> latest issue with the ODF mimetype icons demonstrates that the art
>> project is either not well known to major decision makers, or it is
>> not considered relevant/useful. It is partially up to us to make sure
>> that these sorts of things do not happen again in the future.
>
> That's the reason for me to poach in areas Stella (and Sun in general) is
> used to work on her own.
>
> Of course it's much easier and time sparing to discuss, create and decide
> with the colleagues from the next office than to involve a community of
> individuals with many different (sometimes strange) ideas, educational and
> professional levels, and alternative designs that need to be commented -
> perhaps to be integrated in your own work.

True, but it's up to us to prove otherwise - take the new OOo logo
design proposals - that took off very quickly. It shows we can
mobilize and be very responsive in a relatively short period of time.

Here is one possible approach: the community could have the option of either:

a) inheriting StarOffice artwork (currently the default case, and it
could be the same in the future) or
b) designing its own (this option has been missing in the past)

This could be done on a case-by-case basis. In other words, Sun would
be free to continue as is with artwork related to StarOffice, but we,
as a community (which would of course have people from Sun), should be
able to decide (or have greater say in) what OOo will look like by
being able to provide our own artwork, rather than automatically
inheriting StarOffice artwork in the majority of cases.

> On the other hand: This is an open source project with a dedicated
> sub-project. Even if the Art Project started with creating marketing
> material, it became much broader in directive during the last years.
>
>>>> Perhaps "Art Project" is too small as name - "Visual recognition"
>>>> or "Branding Art" comes to my mind...
>>
>> Visual Design already exists [2], but Stella is the only one I can
>> see taking part in it.
>
> IIRC she built these pages in order to share her work with the community. As
> she seems to be the only OOo designer at Sun, I don't wander about other
> contributors to the website and the wiki.
>
>> A lot of important branding and artwork
>> activity happens on those pages, but we aren't really made aware of
>> their existence or involved in what goes on.
>
> We did know about them, but haven't been involved at all.

The visual design pages are there, but there is no consultation with
the art project (with the exception of the splash screen) so there
might well be some people who don't know about it at all (i.e., we
don't instruct new members to keep an eye on the Visual Design pages).

OOo 3's mimetype icons provide one illustration - I was not aware (and
I don't think many others were either) that OOo would get new mimetype
icons for OOo 3, even though the art project had (and still has) an
issue open for the creation of icons for OOo 3 [2]. There was simply
no discussion - either about whether we were going to do anything with
the existing proposals as OOo 3 approached, or about the new ones that
Stella designed. There was no discussion (i.e. it was up to
individuals in the Art project to go to Visual Design and discover the
new icons), probably because, as you mentioned above, the project's
aspirations have become broader and do not necessarily reflect the
intentions of the original Art project. So if the Art project wants to
take an active role in such broader issues, we have to expand our
scope and the best way IMO is as a separate project.

[2] http://www.openoffice.org/nonav/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=54755

>> Perhaps this is because
>> a lot of OOo's artwork is derived from StarOffice and it is just
>> assumed that OOo will have the same artwork as StarOffice (with the
>> exception of, say, the splash screen and website). This is an
>> assumption that we might need to challenge.
>
> I think, that there are two or three reasons why the OOo branding artwork is
> nearly totally Sun based.
>
>  - Stella is a great designer and works a lot on OOo related artwork. There
> was no need for any Sun developer to send a mail to any mailing list, wait
> for discussion and reply: He just went to the office at the other side of
> the corridor, told her what he imagined and got the artwork he needed.
> Contacting the community would have taken much more time. We all know about
> long fruitless discussions . so why bother?

There is no need to bother with long fruitless discussions - there is
just a need to provide options (and with that, responsibility) to the
community - to say, for example: "this is the artwork that Sun has
designed for StarOffice, either take it, or provide the design you
agreed upon by such and such date so it can be shipped with OOo
version X.Y.Z".

> - As long as only one designer creates all the branding relevant artwork for
> OOo, it can be kept consistent without huge discussion and lots of necessary
> documentation.

That has become somewhat problematic because it is no longer true.
OOo's splash screen, icons and website are based on very different
designs and color schemes. We have become inconsistent in recent years
because we have had involvement in some areas, and no involvement in
others. When we did have involvement, we did not necessarily do it in
a coordinated manner that emphasized consistency in terms of OOo's
visual identity/design/branding (I know I'm partly to blame for that
with regards to the website). To some extent, I think we need to start
afresh with a new style guide that would apply to all OOo artwork. In
my utopian vision, OOo 4 would have a new logo, a new website, a new
splash screen and new mimetype icons, all made in collaboration with
the community, and all reasonably consistent with each other.

[...]

>> By having a project where non-Sun community members can have a real
>> impact on OOo's identity, we could attract more members and interest
>> in the project. And with nicer, more co-ordinated artwork, we could
>> attract more people to OOo. We all want to see OOo succeed, and I
>> think this is an obvious way of helping to achieve that.
>
> I don't see any major problems in finding interested people once such a
> project will be active - but we need another precondition: Sun has to
> involve "external" artists in their decision finding process. At other
> projects this seems to work, so we'll see if there is a chance for the Art
> Project too.

+1. I won't be at OOoCon, but maybe you could see what people's
reactions to a visual branding/identity/design/artwork project might
be, in addition to the prospect of a new logo?

Regards,
Ivan.

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[Nikash V. SINGH]

Hi Bernhard, Ivan, All,



Ivan M <i2initiatives@...> wrote;
>
> Hi Bernhard, all,
>
> I hope that everyone on the art list will add their views on this
> subject. The speedy response to the logo design proposal suggests that
> there is a widespread desire to have an impact on OOo's visual
> branding/artwork/design/identity, so I hope that this discussion will
> become just as vibrant.
> ...


Sorry I don't have time to reply to all the points you made in that post Ivan, but overall, I strongly agree with your (and Bernhard's) proposal to make Art into something more integrally a part of the OOo project.

Right now I get the feeling the "Art" project is considered more of a source of "Fan art" for the OOo product and that "Visual Identity" is where people go to get the serious stuff done (Branding, UI). I honestly don't see why that is. I can add, personally, that I would definitely prefer to be involved in a project involved in ALL graphic areas of OOo. So whether you all see this as either;

1. Closer interaction with the other projects
2. Creation of a new and more diverse project
3. Merger with the other graphic projects

I'm for any of these proposals of it means one location for all graphic work and a more visible contribution from the COMMUNITY into the product.

In the next few weeks I'll be working intensively on my thesis and may not be able to respond quickly.
Please don't take this as a sign of disinterest. On the contrary, I couldn't be more excited by the things you're both proposing.
As soon as my other obligations are over, I'll be looking to inject a healthy dose of Design contribution across all areas of OOo.
(I've had quite a few ideas brewing for OOo and not enough time to enact any of them)
I hope your actions in the next few weeks mean that our contributions to OOo can be extended into the branding and UI too.

Thanks to Graham, Ivan and Sebastien for the logo feedback!
-Nik


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[Bernhard Dippold-2]

Hi Ivan, all,

I just want to comment some of your points, so I don't forget to do it
later.

As I don't want to cause anybody not to take part in this discussion
(because he or she has the same - or the opposite - opinion), I try to
keep my comments short...

Ivan M schrieb:
> Hi Bernhard, all,
>
> I hope that everyone on the art list will add their views on this
> subject. The speedy response to the logo design proposal suggests
> that there is a widespread desire to have an impact on OOo's visual
> branding/artwork/design/identity, so I hope that this discussion will
> become just as vibrant.
+1

>
> On Thu, Oct 15, 2009 at 11:27 AM, Bernhard Dippold
> <bernhard@...>  wrote: [...]
>> I've been off the project (the entire OOo community) for nearly two
>> years - don't know if I had been able to realize at least parts of
>> it...
>
> There was a concerted effort, but sadly there were few concrete
> outcomes. There were issues with submissions dedicated to new icons,
>  branding bugs, OOo's logo, splash screen, the font ... etc [1].

I've took part in these works, but was off, when we had to contact the
responsible persons for integrating that stuff.

> All the Art project managed to influence for OOo 3 was the splash
> screen, but the process there was not very collaborative (i.e., we
> only had one round and no time to comment on the winning design until
> afterwards).

In my opinion this should be done differently in future:
Even if I like community votes on important questions, the splash screen
is one of the most important bases for branding. Public like/dislike
voting can't take this point into account.

Therefore I prefer a different approach:
- Define a color scheme, perhaps some branding element to be included in
every splash screen proposal.
- Have a first round of voting by a dedicated jury taking into account
all the implications of the splash screen proposals on visual identity.
- Provide a set of three to five splash screens to be voted by the
community.

>
> [...] it's up to us to prove otherwise - take the new OOo logo design
> proposals - that took off very quickly. It shows we can mobilize and
> be very responsive in a relatively short period of time.
>
> Here is one possible approach: the community could have the option
> of either:
>
> a) inheriting StarOffice artwork (currently the default case, and it
>  could be the same in the future) or b) designing its own (this
> option has been missing in the past)
>
> This could be done on a case-by-case basis.

This is not easy to achieve, because in future we want to be more aware
of a consistent graphical language than now. With a case-by-case
insertion of different artwork we'll have to keep an eye on the
integration of the new artwork in the present branding and visual context.

> In other words, Sun would be free to continue as is with artwork
> related to StarOffice, but we, as a community (which would of course
>  have people from Sun), should be able to decide (or have greater say
>  in) what OOo will look like by being able to provide our own
> artwork, rather than automatically inheriting StarOffice artwork in
> the majority of cases.

Stella's work has not been dedicated to StarOffice only, but is meant to
be an integral part of OpenOffice.org. She is close to the majority of
developers, so her work is easier to be integrated in the code than
"external" artwork.

In the past the Art project has not been in a position to force any
modification to the core product - but with a broader basis (including
Marketing, UX, Website, UI experts) this will become different.

> [...] there might well be some people who don't know about it at all
>  (i.e., we don't instruct new members to keep an eye on the Visual
> Design pages).

We do when we point to the visual resources at the wiki, but this is not
as obvious as it might be.
>
> [...] if the Art project wants to take an active role in such
> broader issues, we have to expand our scope and the best way IMO is
> as a separate project.[...]

+1

In the past intentions to start an independent Art project lacked in
support by the community (and there have been just two or three people
able to spend some time for it).

If we include contact persons from other projects our broader target
will become more important for the community with both more impact
inside and outside the new project.

>
> [...] there is just a need to provide options (and with that,
> responsibility) to the community - to say, for example: "this is the
> artwork that Sun has designed for StarOffice, either take it, or
> provide the design you agreed upon by such and such date so it can be
> shipped with OOo version X.Y.Z".

I don't know if the program is able to switch quite easy between
different themes - but for mimetype icons, toolbar icons and splash
screens this might be possible IMHO.

>
>> - As long as only one designer creates all the branding relevant
>> artwork for OOo, it can be kept consistent without huge discussion
>> and lots of necessary documentation.
>
> That has become somewhat problematic because it is no longer true.
> OOo's splash screen, icons and website are based on very different
> designs and color schemes. We have become inconsistent in recent
> years because we have had involvement in some areas, and no
> involvement in others. When we did have involvement, we did not
> necessarily do it in a coordinated manner that emphasized
> consistency in terms of OOo's visual identity/design/branding (I know
> I'm partly to blame for that with regards to the website).

There have not been a general effort to do consistent work when you
worked on the website - and it improved to more than 100% with the new look!

> To some
> extent, I think we need to start afresh with a new style guide that
> would apply to all OOo artwork. In my utopian vision, OOo 4 would
> have a new logo, a new website, a new splash screen and new mimetype
> icons, all made in collaboration with the community, and all
> reasonably consistent with each other.

That's exactly what I imagine :-)

>
> [...]
>>
>> I don't see any major problems in finding interested people once
>> such a project will be active - but we need another precondition:
>> Sun has to involve "external" artists in their decision finding
>> process. At other projects this seems to work, so we'll see if
>> there is a chance for the Art Project too.
>
> +1. I won't be at OOoCon, but maybe you could see what people's
> reactions to a visual branding/identity/design/artwork project might
>  be, in addition to the prospect of a new logo?

I'm looking forward to a lot of discussions on the broader topic - the
new logo proposals are just a starting point...

Best regards

Bernhard

PS: I told you I would try to keep my reply short... Obviously I failed...

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[Christoph Noack-2]

Hi Bernhard, Ivan, Nikash, .*,

I read the mails in this thread _really_ carefully. I agree with many of
the point and I would like to add my (additional) thoughts.

Am Sonntag, den 18.10.2009, 22:02 +0200 schrieb Bernhard Dippold:
[...]

>
> Ivan M schrieb:
> > <bernhard@...>  wrote: [...]
> > All the Art project managed to influence for OOo 3 was the splash
> > screen, but the process there was not very collaborative (i.e., we
> > only had one round and no time to comment on the winning design until
> > afterwards).
>
> In my opinion this should be done differently in future:
> Even if I like community votes on important questions, the splash screen
> is one of the most important bases for branding. Public like/dislike
> voting can't take this point into account.

Absolutely. I hope I remember correctly... The author Donald Norman (on
of the key persons for usability engineering in the 80s) mentioned in
one of his books, "Emotional Design: ..." that it is important to have a
"design lead" to create a successful product (successful = consistent,
high quality, even a bit individual). This is very noteworthy, since in
his first book, he referred to rules and research when it comes to the
interaction itself [1].

[1]
http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/User_Experience/Resources#Introduction_to_User_Experience_and_Usability

> Therefore I prefer a different approach:
> - Define a color scheme, perhaps some branding element to be included in
> every splash screen proposal.
> - Have a first round of voting by a dedicated jury taking into account
> all the implications of the splash screen proposals on visual identity.
> - Provide a set of three to five splash screens to be voted by the
> community.

Yep, that might work well. Maybe - if there is enough time in advance -
that the community can (additionally) vote on certain graphical/branding
elements to be used. This may be the basis to provide consistency across
the whole product (incl. website, documentation, people *g*).

> > [...] it's up to us to prove otherwise - take the new OOo logo design
> > proposals - that took off very quickly. It shows we can mobilize and
> > be very responsive in a relatively short period of time.
> >
> > Here is one possible approach: the community could have the option
> > of either:
> >
> > a) inheriting StarOffice artwork (currently the default case, and it
> >  could be the same in the future) or b) designing its own (this
> > option has been missing in the past)
> >
> > This could be done on a case-by-case basis.
>
> This is not easy to achieve, because in future we want to be more aware
> of a consistent graphical language than now. With a case-by-case
> insertion of different artwork we'll have to keep an eye on the
> integration of the new artwork in the present branding and visual context.

Yep. Maybe one possible approach could even be to maximize the
efficiency by close cooperation with Sun - even contributing
"officially" to the core product. This might free resources on their
side to cooperate with us (e.g. defining styleguides). Especially when I
think about the changes which might happen with the ongoing effort
Renaissance, I'm sure there will be a huge demand for artwork.

By the way, these decisions are highly dependent on how StarOffice will
evolve in the near future. I don't know whether it is planned to modify
some of the key branding elements (e.g. s-curve).

> > In other words, Sun would be free to continue as is with artwork
> > related to StarOffice, but we, as a community (which would of course
> >  have people from Sun), should be able to decide (or have greater say
> >  in) what OOo will look like by being able to provide our own
> > artwork, rather than automatically inheriting StarOffice artwork in
> > the majority of cases.
>
> Stella's work has not been dedicated to StarOffice only, but is meant to
> be an integral part of OpenOffice.org. She is close to the majority of
> developers, so her work is easier to be integrated in the code than
> "external" artwork.
>
> In the past the Art project has not been in a position to force any
> modification to the core product - but with a broader basis (including
> Marketing, UX, Website, UI experts) this will become different.

Personally, I think that other terms than "force" are appropriate in
this case. From my point-of-view, it has been incredible difficult to
manage community artwork so that it keeps / enhances visual consistency
in OOo. And it still is. As far as I know, we lack "best practices" to
judge whether such artwork is sufficient for inclusion.

[...]
> If we include contact persons from other projects our broader target
> will become more important for the community with both more impact
> inside and outside the new project.

Yep. But I still think about how improve the process to continuously
integrate artwork into OpenOffice.org - maybe to use it as a starting
point to convince that there is real potential in the artwork community.
And therefore a need for a separate project.

Currently, I don't know whether there are keywords for "artwork" in the
Issue Tracker or whether there should be visual design representatives
in the I-Teams who work on new/enhanced features.

[...]
> > That has become somewhat problematic because it is no longer true.
> > OOo's splash screen, icons and website [...]
[...]
> reasonably consistent with each other.
>
> That's exactly what I imagine :-)

(Starting to dream ... *g* ... representing the common ideals and goals
of OOo)

> > [...]
> >>
> >> I don't see any major problems in finding interested people once
> >> such a project will be active - but we need another precondition:
> >> Sun has to involve "external" artists in their decision finding
> >> process. At other projects this seems to work, so we'll see if
> >> there is a chance for the Art Project too.
> >
> > +1. I won't be at OOoCon, but maybe you could see what people's
> > reactions to a visual branding/identity/design/artwork project might
> >  be, in addition to the prospect of a new logo?
>
> I'm looking forward to a lot of discussions on the broader topic - the
> new logo proposals are just a starting point...

I'm looking forward to see you in Italy :-)

Have a nice day,
Christoph
--
Usability * Productivity * Enjoyment

OpenOffice.org User Experience Team
http://ux.openoffice.org


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[Graham Lauder-2]

On Monday 19 October 2009 11:13:48 Christoph Noack wrote:

Hi Chris and all,
Whew, this is going to get long

> Hi Bernhard, Ivan, Nikash, .*,
>
> I read the mails in this thread _really_ carefully. I agree with many of
> the point and I would like to add my (additional) thoughts.
>
> Am Sonntag, den 18.10.2009, 22:02 +0200 schrieb Bernhard Dippold:
> [...]
>
> > Ivan M schrieb:
> > > <bernhard@...>  wrote: [...]
> > > All the Art project managed to influence for OOo 3 was the splash
> > > screen, but the process there was not very collaborative (i.e., we
> > > only had one round and no time to comment on the winning design until
> > > afterwards).
> >
> > In my opinion this should be done differently in future:
> > Even if I like community votes on important questions, the splash screen
> > is one of the most important bases for branding. Public like/dislike
> > voting can't take this point into account.

Agreed, however we should be careful to make sure we leverage what could be
the major strength of the community and that is numbers and teams.

>
> Absolutely. I hope I remember correctly... The author Donald Norman (on
> of the key persons for usability engineering in the 80s) mentioned in
> one of his books, "Emotional Design: ..." that it is important to have a
> "design lead" to create a successful product (successful = consistent,
> high quality, even a bit individual). This is very noteworthy, since in
> his first book, he referred to rules and research when it comes to the
> interaction itself [1].
>
> [1]
> http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/User_Experience/Resources#Introduc
>tion_to_User_Experience_and_Usability

Donald Norman was talking about design and useability of objects.

Branding however is a beast of a different cut, there are useability issues
involved, true and one of the crossovers from Norman's text is in our first
priority with any rebranding exercise is emotional connection.  Nik made a
visual point of this with his golden folder logo treatment.  Colours evoke
emotion, we need to have that discussion in terms of how we present to our
various Demographics  

>
> > Therefore I prefer a different approach:
> > - Define a color scheme, perhaps some branding element to be included in
> > every splash screen proposal.
> > - Have a first round of voting by a dedicated jury taking into account
> > all the implications of the splash screen proposals on visual identity.
> > - Provide a set of three to five splash screens to be voted by the
> > community.
>
> Yep, that might work well. Maybe - if there is enough time in advance -
> that the community can (additionally) vote on certain graphical/branding
> elements to be used. This may be the basis to provide consistency across
> the whole product (incl. website, documentation, people *g*).

A better process for mine would be slightly different.

First work on an overall style:  Colour Palette, feel, target Demographic and
so on.... this could be done by Artists contributing extreme work based on
the above, there could even conceivably be more than one brand to suit
different demographics, who knows.  

Once the community has decided on that work on Elements:  
Bugs, Positioners, Fonts.  Taking into consideration all the places it's going
to be used and then

Put it to the Artists with concrete criteria and then sit back and watch the
fun.


[....]
>
> Yep. Maybe one possible approach could even be to maximize the
> efficiency by close cooperation with Sun - even contributing
> "officially" to the core product. This might free resources on their
> side to cooperate with us (e.g. defining styleguides). Especially when I
> think about the changes which might happen with the ongoing effort
> Renaissance, I'm sure there will be a huge demand for artwork.

One of the strengths of OOo is the corporate community partnership, we don't
get maximum benefit from that as yet, it is something we need to work on.

(Having said that, I can remember back to the early days and the gulf that
existed then.  Light years ahead we are now by comparison)

>
> By the way, these decisions are highly dependent on how StarOffice will
> evolve in the near future. I don't know whether it is planned to modify
> some of the key branding elements (e.g. s-curve).

:(  Hope not, I like the "S" curve, but I suppose in the new regime it may be
seen as Too "SUN".


[...]
> > In the past the Art project has not been in a position to force any
> > modification to the core product - but with a broader basis (including
> > Marketing, UX, Website, UI experts) this will become different.
>
> Personally, I think that other terms than "force" are appropriate in
> this case. From my point-of-view, it has been incredible difficult to
> manage community artwork so that it keeps / enhances visual consistency
> in OOo. And it still is. As far as I know, we lack "best practices" to
> judge whether such artwork is sufficient for inclusion.

That comes down to a couple of things:
a) A comprehensive style guide
b) Recognise long term contributors above one off arrivals.
This is because there is a greater connection with the community and they are
already in touch with the Corporate Consciousness and have participated in
the discussions that lead to a final product.  Simple things like those "not
in touch" almost invariably leave the .org off.  The idea is to recognise the
concept of "Community" and that way longterm participation in the art project
will lead to consistency.  Make no bones that sometimes stuff that comes out
of the corporate art departments can be less than perfect too... The ODF
icons were a good example of that.  

> [...]
>
> > > That has become somewhat problematic because it is no longer true.
> > > OOo's splash screen, icons and website [...]
>
> [...]
>
> > reasonably consistent with each other.
> >
> > That's exactly what I imagine :-)
>
> (Starting to dream ... *g* ... representing the common ideals and goals
> of OOo)

That's all we need, a discussion toward a comprehensive style guide that
covers Website, documentation, stationery, visual interface and logo and a
team of people who will own that and run with it.


>
> > > [...]
> > >
> > >> I don't see any major problems in finding interested people once
> > >> such a project will be active - but we need another precondition:
> > >> Sun has to involve "external" artists in their decision finding
> > >> process. At other projects this seems to work, so we'll see if
> > >> there is a chance for the Art Project too.

The main reason that the Art project goes through fluctuations is that there
is little in the way of "reward" for the people who participate.  Reward in
an Open Source project is simple recognition.  The Art project was gutted
over the 2.0 splash screen when there was no recognition given to the
community members and an "All in" policy was used without any discussion.  A
lot of good people just shrugged their shoulders and disappeared into the
distance to more rewarding projects.  The question they were asking
themselves was "Why bother contributing when you get ignored when there is  
chance to contribute significantly."

You talk about Norman's "Emotional Design", the same applies for designing
_systems_.  Especially when there is only an "Emotional Return" for the
community member.  


> > >
> > > +1. I won't be at OOoCon, but maybe you could see what people's
> > > reactions to a visual branding/identity/design/artwork project might
> > >  be, in addition to the prospect of a new logo?
> >
> > I'm looking forward to a lot of discussions on the broader topic - the
> > new logo proposals are just a starting point...
>

Big +1 to that


> Have a nice day,
> Christoph


cheers
GL
--
Graham Lauder,
OpenOffice.org MarCon (Marketing Contact) NZ
http://marketing.openoffice.org/contacts.html

INGOTs Moderator New Zealand
www.theingots.org.nz


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[Bernhard Dippold-2]

Hi Graham, Christoph, all,

Graham Lauder schrieb:

> On Monday 19 October 2009 11:13:48 Christoph Noack wrote:
>
> Hi Chris and all, Whew, this is going to get long
>
>> Hi Bernhard, Ivan, Nikash, .*,
>>
>> [...]
>>
>> Am Sonntag, den 18.10.2009, 22:02 +0200 schrieb Bernhard Dippold:
>>> [...]
>>
>>> Ivan M schrieb:
>>>> <bernhard@...>   wrote: [...] All the Art
>>>> project managed to influence for OOo 3 was the splash screen,
>>>> but the process there was not very collaborative (i.e., we
>>>> only had one round and no time to comment on the winning
>>>> design until afterwards).
>>>
>>> In my opinion this should be done differently in future: Even if
>>> I like community votes on important questions, the splash screen
>>> is one of the most important bases for branding. Public
>>> like/dislike voting can't take this point into account.
>
> Agreed, however we should be careful to make sure we leverage what
> could be the major strength of the community and that is numbers and
> teams.

I don't want to exclude anybody - just add an additional step towards
quality and usability.

>
> [...]
>>> Therefore I prefer a different approach: - Define a color
>>> scheme, perhaps some branding element to be included in every
>>> splash screen proposal. - Have a first round of voting by a
>>> dedicated jury taking into account all the implications of the
>>> splash screen proposals on visual identity. - Provide a set of
>>> three to five splash screens to be voted by the community.
>>
>> Yep, that might work well. Maybe - if there is enough time in
>> advance - that the community can (additionally) vote on certain
>> graphical/branding elements to be used. This may be the basis to
>> provide consistency across the whole product (incl. website,
>> documentation, people *g*).

At the moment OOo4.0 is far away enough to add some votings, if they
increase awareness and result in high quality branding elements...
>
>
> A better process for mine would be slightly different.
>
> First work on an overall style:  Colour Palette, feel, target
> Demographic and so on.... this could be done by Artists contributing
> extreme work based on the above, there could even conceivably be more
> than one brand to suit different demographics, who knows.

The overall style is the most important factor in the entire project.

Therefore this must be the first step - after branding elements (like
the logo proposals) giving an impression on the different styles.

But I don't think that the color palette must be decided in the beginning.

It's all about feeling IMHO: People should feel comfortable with any OOo
style - whether it should just be updated a bit or newly defined from
the basics. And they should be able to recognize the product and project
by this artwork.

>
> Once the community has decided on that work on Elements: Bugs,
> Positioners, Fonts.  Taking into consideration all the places it's
> going to be used and then

That's what I rather would like to see as community vote:
It much easier to vote on a more or less final design concept than on a
color palette, font or other graphical basics.

>
> Put it to the Artists with concrete criteria and then sit back and
> watch the fun.
>
>
> [....]
>>
>> Yep. Maybe one possible approach could even be to maximize the
>> efficiency by close cooperation with Sun - even contributing
>> "officially" to the core product. This might free resources on
>> their side to cooperate with us (e.g. defining styleguides).
>> Especially when I think about the changes which might happen with
>> the ongoing effort Renaissance, I'm sure there will be a huge
>> demand for artwork.

Cooperation with the present art team at Sun is crucial for the success
of the new project. What kind of cooperation will be possible I don't
really know by now.
>
> [...]
>>> In the past the Art project has not been in a position to force
>>> any modification to the core product - but with a broader basis
>>> (including Marketing, UX, Website, UI experts) this will become
>>> different.
>>
>> Personally, I think that other terms than "force" are appropriate
>> in this case.
Agreed - I didn't mean this term in it's militant meaning. One of the
problems of writing in a foreign language... ;-)

>> From my point-of-view, it has been incredible difficult to manage
>> community artwork so that it keeps / enhances visual consistency
>> in OOo. And it still is. As far as I know, we lack "best practices"
>> to judge whether such artwork is sufficient for inclusion.
>
> That comes down to a couple of things:
 > a) A comprehensive style guide
> b) Recognise long term contributors above one off arrivals. This is
> because there is a greater connection with the community and they are
> already in touch with the Corporate Consciousness and have
> participated in the discussions that lead to a final product.

Not necessarily, but in general you're right.

> Simple things like those "not in touch" almost invariably leave the
> .org off.  The idea is to recognise the concept of "Community" and
> that way longterm participation in the art project will lead to
> consistency.[...].

Consistency in sense of branding recognition and visual identity is
necessary, but this is not dependent on the time someone is subscribed
to the Art Project's mailing list or the number of pictures uploaded to
the wiki (or to issues).

Active involvement in the other projects (website, UX, marketing ...)
affected by this new project is valid too.

I'm with you when you want to reduce the influence by people just
jumping in a topic that raises personal reputation but leaving the
project as soon as their work has not been decided to be the best one...

In my eyes it is more important to see whether someone wants to
contribute to the project or uses the project only to present his
personal artwork...


> [...] That's all we need, a discussion toward a comprehensive style
> guide that covers Website, documentation, stationery, visual
> interface and logo and a team of people who will own that and run
> with it.

Personally I prefer slight movements from present to future artwork over
a sharp breakage in our visual language. But this preference has to be
discussed in the general branding concept - like personal attitude for
or against the colors, the gulls or the font too.

A style guide will stand at the end of this general branding concept
that includes all the areas you mentioned above (and others).

This discussion should include experts from all these areas - and it has
to be repeated iteratively for every circle of updated artwork and
branding elements.
>
> [...] The main reason that the Art project goes through fluctuations
>  is that there is little in the way of "reward" for the people who
> participate.  Reward in an Open Source project is simple
> recognition.

There will always be different opinions on artwork - especially if it is
designed for central graphical elements like logos, icons or branding
elements.

Even with the new project we'll have to find a way to keep the interests
of the entire community over a single artwork contribution - no matter
how exceptional and splendid it is.

I don't know if a board of people from the different projects taking
care for the overall community goals would be a good idea. These people
(I imagine one from Art, Website, Marketing, Trademark, Documentation,
UX and UI plus lead and co-lead of the project) should agree on new
branding relevant design.

What do you think?

I don't want to escalate such topics directly to the Community Council,
but at present there is no other place to decide anything relevant for
more than one project. And with such a board the other projects keep
involved in the new project as their "representative" would bring
information and discussions from one project to the other..

> [...]

Best regards

Bernhard

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