VB.NET is not OOP?

[volkl96]

A little venting here...

I was recently laid off so I am on the job market doing the meet the recruiter dog and pony show.  I have now heard this more than once and it really annoys me.

Paraphrasing: "I see you do not have any OOP experience"....."Yes I do, with .NET"..."but you work with VB.NET, not C#, VB.NET is not OOP"

When I ask the recruiters who is telling them this they state their clients are. There client will not even consider a VB.NET background as it's not an OOP language, only C# is.

So who marketed this and when did it happen?        

[mcintyre321]

Then put c# on your CV!

Greg-160 wrote:

A little venting here...

I was recently laid off so I am on the job market doing the meet the recruiter dog and pony show.  I have now heard this more than once and it really annoys me.

Paraphrasing: "I see you do not have any OOP experience"....."Yes I do, with .NET"..."but you work with VB.NET, not C#, VB.NET is not OOP"

When I ask the recruiters who is telling them this they state their clients are. There client will not even consider a VB.NET background as it's not an OOP language, only C# is.

So who marketed this and when did it happen?        

[Tuna Toksoz]

Which is a really better solution in the long run.

Tuna Toksöz
Eternal sunshine of the open source mind.

http://devlicio.us/blogs/tuna_toksoz
http://tunatoksoz.com
http://twitter.com/tehlike




On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 12:51 PM, mcintyre321 <mcintyre321@...> wrote:

>
>
>
> Then put c# on your CV!
>
>
> Greg-160 wrote:
> >
> > A little venting here...
> >
> > I was recently laid off so I am on the job market doing the meet the
> > recruiter dog and pony show. I have now heard this more than once and it
> > really annoys me.
> >
> > Paraphrasing: "I see you do not have any OOP experience"....."Yes I do,
> > with .NET"..."but you work with VB.NET, not C#, VB.NET is not OOP"
> >
> > When I ask the recruiters who is telling them this they state their
> > clients are. There client will not even consider a VB.NET background as
> > it's not an OOP language, only C# is.
> >
> > So who marketed this and when did it happen?
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://www.nabble.com/VB.NET-is-not-OOP--tp25666552p25666746.html
> Sent from the ALT.NET Yahoo Group mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
>  
>

[Roberta Arcoverde]

Well, I have never heard such a thing. I mean, you've got objects, methods,
inheritance, classes, abstraction, polymorphism... how can it not be
object-oriented?

Im not getting into the vb.net vs. C# discussion (im a C# developer myself),
but knowing that vb is being categorized as non-OO really surprises (and
somehow confuses) me.

[nima dilmaghani]

Totally.  Put C# on the CV.  You cant fight the ignorant masses.  You can
only circumvent them.

On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 12:54 PM, Tuna Toksoz <tehlike@...> wrote:

>
>
> Which is a really better solution in the long run.
>
> Tuna Toksöz
> Eternal sunshine of the open source mind.
>
> http://devlicio.us/blogs/tuna_toksoz
> http://tunatoksoz.com
> http://twitter.com/tehlike
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 12:51 PM, mcintyre321 <mcintyre321@...>wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>> Then put c# on your CV!
>>
>>
>> Greg-160 wrote:
>> >
>> > A little venting here...
>> >
>> > I was recently laid off so I am on the job market doing the meet the
>> > recruiter dog and pony show. I have now heard this more than once and it
>> > really annoys me.
>> >
>> > Paraphrasing: "I see you do not have any OOP experience"....."Yes I do,
>> > with .NET"..."but you work with VB.NET, not C#, VB.NET is not OOP"
>> >
>> > When I ask the recruiters who is telling them this they state their
>> > clients are. There client will not even consider a VB.NET background as
>> > it's not an OOP language, only C# is.
>> >
>> > So who marketed this and when did it happen?
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>> --
>> View this message in context:
>> http://www.nabble.com/VB.NET-is-not-OOP--tp25666552p25666746.html
>> Sent from the ALT.NET Yahoo Group mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>
>>
>  
>

--
Nima

[Mark Seemann]

Why not simply put .NET on the CV? That would still be true...

Mark Seemann
http://blog.ploeh.dk<http://blog.ploeh.dk/>
([phone]

From: altdotnet@... [mailto:altdotnet@...] On Behalf Of nima dilmaghani
Sent: 29. september 2009 19:07
To: altdotnet@...
Subject: Re: [altdotnet] VB.NET is not OOP?



Totally.  Put C# on the CV.  You cant fight the ignorant masses.  You can only circumvent them.
On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 12:54 PM, Tuna Toksoz <tehlike@...<mailto:tehlike@...>> wrote:


Which is a really better solution in the long run.

Tuna Toksöz
Eternal sunshine of the open source mind.

http://devlicio.us/blogs/tuna_toksoz
http://tunatoksoz.com
http://twitter.com/tehlike




On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 12:51 PM, mcintyre321 <mcintyre321@...<mailto:mcintyre321@...>> wrote:


Then put c# on your CV!


Greg-160 wrote:

>
> A little venting here...
>
> I was recently laid off so I am on the job market doing the meet the
> recruiter dog and pony show. I have now heard this more than once and it
> really annoys me.
>
> Paraphrasing: "I see you do not have any OOP experience"....."Yes I do,
> with .NET"..."but you work with VB.NET<http://VB.NET>, not C#, VB.NET<http://VB.NET> is not OOP"
>
> When I ask the recruiters who is telling them this they state their
> clients are. There client will not even consider a VB.NET<http://VB.NET> background as
> it's not an OOP language, only C# is.
>
> So who marketed this and when did it happen?
>
>
>

--
View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/VB.NET-is-not-OOP--tp25666552p25666746.html
Sent from the ALT.NET<http://ALT.NET> Yahoo Group mailing list archive at Nabble.com.




--
Nima

[Gareth Down]

I remember one saying to me - "I can see you've done lots of ASP.NET, but it
looks like you haven't really done much .NET?"

I used to be a contractor and had the pain of dealing with them all the
time. The most irritating thing they do is ring you up about a "great
position" they have, when in actual fact it turns out they're just fishing
for manager's names where you're currently working / have worked in the
past. Worse still, posting fake adverts on jobserve which they always do.

(NB: I'm speaking as a Londoner, I imagine it's the same story in the US)

It's probably more important to put on your CV what the recruiter wants to
hear than a prospective employer.

You should put C# down if you have to. If you don't know it and your
prospective employer queries it, just explain to the that you had to put it
to get past the recruitment consultants. They're well known for making
stupid mistakes like that, so your employer will understand.

I found having a "profile" section - just a couple of succinct paragraphs at
the top of your CV which says stuff like "object orientated design" etc,
really helps a lot.

Also make sure you have it in your list of skills.




-----Original Message-----
From: altdotnet@... [mailto:altdotnet@...] On Behalf
Of volkl96
Sent: 29 September 2009 17:40
To: altdotnet@...
Subject: [altdotnet] VB.NET is not OOP?

A little venting here...

I was recently laid off so I am on the job market doing the meet the
recruiter dog and pony show.  I have now heard this more than once and it
really annoys me.

Paraphrasing: "I see you do not have any OOP experience"....."Yes I do, with
.NET"..."but you work with VB.NET, not C#, VB.NET is not OOP"

When I ask the recruiters who is telling them this they state their clients
are. There client will not even consider a VB.NET background as it's not an
OOP language, only C# is.

So who marketed this and when did it happen?        



------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

[John Petersen-2]

Sorry to hear about your job situation. I just went through it myself. Keep
your head up!

First thing to remember - while recruiters are good at throwing jargon
around, they really do not understand the subject matter for
which they are recruiting. For instance, they will ask if you if you know
".NET 3.5"..when all the while they don't have a clue was to what
was introduced in any particular version of the framework. In fact, they
really don't understand the differences between the language
and the framework.

However....

I was primary a VB developer. Sure, I dabbled in C#..but I never really used
the language. Today, all I do is C#. For whatever reason, that
is where things have gone. And...it appears that as time goes on, Microsoft
will introducing features to C# that won't be in VB. Of course VB
is OO. Nobody could argue otherwise. For one thing, Lambdas are cleaner in
C#..but you can use them in VB. If you are working with most of the open
source
tools available today, the source is likely to be written in C# and the
examples will be in C# as well.

The bottom line...to some extent - it boils down to preference - and it is a
preference that has garnered a good deal of traction. The reality is, if you

are a professional software developer in the .NET space, the expectation
(generally) is that C# will be your primary language.

Good luck,

< JVP >


On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 12:39 PM, volkl96 <gregarobinson@...> wrote:

>
>
> A little venting here...
>
> I was recently laid off so I am on the job market doing the meet the
> recruiter dog and pony show. I have now heard this more than once and it
> really annoys me.
>
> Paraphrasing: "I see you do not have any OOP experience"....."Yes I do,
> with .NET"..."but you work with VB.NET, not C#, VB.NET is not OOP"
>
> When I ask the recruiters who is telling them this they state their clients
> are. There client will not even consider a VB.NET background as it's not
> an OOP language, only C# is.
>
> So who marketed this and when did it happen?
>
>  
>

[bill barry]

I will not hire someone whom I catch in a lie with their CV.

I understand the reasoning for putting it in to get past the
dilbert-phb-style recruiters but I do not feel that it is justified. If
I were having this problem, I would contact the company that is using
the recruiter and let them know that the recruiter doesn't know what
they are doing. Supply the company with your resume and explain why you
were turned down and how the recruiter is wrong. Do not expect to get
the job or even to have your voice heard (but if it isn't, consider
whether you want to work there in the first place). As prospective
employees, we can only have 2 goals:
1. Get the job we want.
2. Get rid of the recruiters who don't know what they are doing.

Recruiters should be helping the company get the people they want to
hire. That means the recruiter should know what the company wants and
have a reasonable understanding of the terminology in the field. If the
recruiter cannot do this then they are not doing their job correctly and
the company deserves to know. Having a recruiter who doesn't know the
terminology of the positions they are trying to fill is just like having
a developer who doesn't know how to write functionality without having
it be riddled with bugs. In either case as the user you should report bugs.

Gareth Down wrote:
> You should put C# down if you have to. If you don't know it and your
> prospective employer queries it, just explain to the that you had to put it
> to get past the recruitment consultants. They're well known for making
> stupid mistakes like that, so your employer will understand.
>
> I found having a "profile" section - just a couple of succinct paragraphs at
> the top of your CV which says stuff like "object orientated design" etc,
> really helps a lot.

[Prasad Narravula]

When a recruiter ( let's call the recruiter -  caroline for now) is asking questions like this,  I would play ping pong.

Just quote few projects( in your CV) that are done in VB, which are followed OOP, and  mention the principles of OOP.

If Caroline still putting you down with lack of knowledge, then say that you don't want to confuse her with technical jargon,and you are very confident about OO concepts, and you can easily talk about these concepts with the Client, leave the play with asking if Caroline wants to talk about those.

 (if you see a value telling this, tell her that she got the wrong idea of OOPs.)

If she is still acting stupid, Let her talk, and leave. if I like the opportunity, I would email her with more details, and quotes from experts ( may be few links). Otherwise, relax!  another window of opportunity will open.

 

It's unfortunate we had to deal with all these ignorant middle men( and we end up being called Geeks) who want do the business for their living  in our Industry with out spending time to understand the business terms.    

But don't change your resume as suggested in the mail thread, keep the resume reflecting your experience, and expertise.

 

 

Good luck.

 

 


 


To: altdotnet@...
From: mark@...
Date: Tue, 29 Sep 2009 19:22:26 +0200
Subject: RE: [altdotnet] VB.NET is not OOP?

 





Why not simply put .NET on the CV? That would still be true...

 

Mark Seemann
http://blog.ploeh.dk
([phone]
 


From: altdotnet@... [mailto:altdotnet@...] On Behalf Of nima dilmaghani
Sent: 29. september 2009 19:07
To: altdotnet@...
Subject: Re: [altdotnet] VB.NET is not OOP?
 
 



Totally.  Put C# on the CV.  You cant fight the ignorant masses.  You can only circumvent them.


On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 12:54 PM, Tuna Toksoz <tehlike@...> wrote:

 



Which is a really better solution in the long run.
Tuna Toksöz
Eternal sunshine of the open source mind.

http://devlicio.us/blogs/tuna_toksoz
http://tunatoksoz.com
http://twitter.com/tehlike







On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 12:51 PM, mcintyre321 <mcintyre321@...> wrote:

 




Then put c# on your CV!



Greg-160 wrote:

>
> A little venting here...
>
> I was recently laid off so I am on the job market doing the meet the
> recruiter dog and pony show. I have now heard this more than once and it
> really annoys me.
>
> Paraphrasing: "I see you do not have any OOP experience"....."Yes I do,
> with .NET"..."but you work with VB.NET, not C#, VB.NET is not OOP"
>
> When I ask the recruiters who is telling them this they state their
> clients are. There client will not even consider a VB.NET background as
> it's not an OOP language, only C# is.
>
> So who marketed this and when did it happen?
>
>
>

--
View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/VB.NET-is-not-OOP--tp25666552p25666746.html
Sent from the ALT.NET Yahoo Group mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
 


--
Nima









     

[J Wynia-2]

When I help people with their resume/CV, I often rework their "Skills"
section into subsections like:

==Skills and Technologies==
Proficient: C#, T-SQL, Python
Professionally Competent: VB.NET
Academically Familiar: Perl, Ruby
Experimenting With: Scheme, Lisp

This can get past the buzzword police to an interview where you can explain
in more detail exactly how familiar you are with Ruby, etc. It's honest, but
still works the system to pass by barriers.

-----Original Message-----
From: altdotnet@... [mailto:altdotnet@...] On Behalf
Of Bill Barry
Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2009 1:03 PM
To: altdotnet@...
Subject: Re: [altdotnet] VB.NET is not OOP?

I will not hire someone whom I catch in a lie with their CV.

I understand the reasoning for putting it in to get past the
dilbert-phb-style recruiters but I do not feel that it is justified. If
I were having this problem, I would contact the company that is using
the recruiter and let them know that the recruiter doesn't know what
they are doing. Supply the company with your resume and explain why you
were turned down and how the recruiter is wrong. Do not expect to get
the job or even to have your voice heard (but if it isn't, consider
whether you want to work there in the first place). As prospective
employees, we can only have 2 goals:
1. Get the job we want.
2. Get rid of the recruiters who don't know what they are doing.

Recruiters should be helping the company get the people they want to
hire. That means the recruiter should know what the company wants and
have a reasonable understanding of the terminology in the field. If the
recruiter cannot do this then they are not doing their job correctly and
the company deserves to know. Having a recruiter who doesn't know the
terminology of the positions they are trying to fill is just like having
a developer who doesn't know how to write functionality without having
it be riddled with bugs. In either case as the user you should report bugs.

Gareth Down wrote:
> You should put C# down if you have to. If you don't know it and your
> prospective employer queries it, just explain to the that you had to put
it
> to get past the recruitment consultants. They're well known for making
> stupid mistakes like that, so your employer will understand.
>
> I found having a "profile" section - just a couple of succinct paragraphs
at
> the top of your CV which says stuff like "object orientated design" etc,
> really helps a lot.



------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

[Gareth Down]

More often than not, at least in the UK and with contract positions, you
don't know the name of the company until the very last minute when you get
an interview. Not to mention not knowing the name of the person in the
company who you need to speak to.

It would also put you in bad favour with the recruiter if you go behind
their back and speak to the employer directly, especially if you're telling
them the recruiter doesn't know what they're talking about!

If he's going for a pure VB.Net position, which I assume he is, then putting
down C# shouldn't matter. I would never advocate lying that you know C# and
going for a C# position because you would definitely get caught out. If it's
a VB.Net position and always will be then the employer shouldn't care or
even ask about it.

However, after thinking about it - you're right, it's best not to lie.

So, revised advice: Learn some C# in your time off and then put it on your
CV with a clear conscience!



-----Original Message-----
From: altdotnet@... [mailto:altdotnet@...] On Behalf
Of Bill Barry
Sent: 29 September 2009 19:03
To: altdotnet@...
Subject: Re: [altdotnet] VB.NET is not OOP?

I will not hire someone whom I catch in a lie with their CV.

I understand the reasoning for putting it in to get past the
dilbert-phb-style recruiters but I do not feel that it is justified. If
I were having this problem, I would contact the company that is using
the recruiter and let them know that the recruiter doesn't know what
they are doing. Supply the company with your resume and explain why you
were turned down and how the recruiter is wrong. Do not expect to get
the job or even to have your voice heard (but if it isn't, consider
whether you want to work there in the first place). As prospective
employees, we can only have 2 goals:
1. Get the job we want.
2. Get rid of the recruiters who don't know what they are doing.

Recruiters should be helping the company get the people they want to
hire. That means the recruiter should know what the company wants and
have a reasonable understanding of the terminology in the field. If the
recruiter cannot do this then they are not doing their job correctly and
the company deserves to know. Having a recruiter who doesn't know the
terminology of the positions they are trying to fill is just like having
a developer who doesn't know how to write functionality without having
it be riddled with bugs. In either case as the user you should report bugs.

Gareth Down wrote:
> You should put C# down if you have to. If you don't know it and your
> prospective employer queries it, just explain to the that you had to put
it
> to get past the recruitment consultants. They're well known for making
> stupid mistakes like that, so your employer will understand.
>
> I found having a "profile" section - just a couple of succinct paragraphs
at
> the top of your CV which says stuff like "object orientated design" etc,
> really helps a lot.



------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

[nima dilmaghani]

Don't lie.  Put C# on your resume.  And spend a little time learning the
language.   Its mainly learning the different syntax. .NET is still .NET, VS
is still VS, the OS is still Windows.

It opens your options in the job market and you will be surprised on how
fast you pick it up.

On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 2:32 PM, Gareth Down <g@...> wrote:

>
>
> More often than not, at least in the UK and with contract positions, you
> don't know the name of the company until the very last minute when you get
> an interview. Not to mention not knowing the name of the person in the
> company who you need to speak to.
>
> It would also put you in bad favour with the recruiter if you go behind
> their back and speak to the employer directly, especially if you're telling
> them the recruiter doesn't know what they're talking about!
>
> If he's going for a pure VB.Net position, which I assume he is, then
> putting
> down C# shouldn't matter. I would never advocate lying that you know C# and
> going for a C# position because you would definitely get caught out. If
> it's
> a VB.Net position and always will be then the employer shouldn't care or
> even ask about it.
>
> However, after thinking about it - you're right, it's best not to lie.
>
> So, revised advice: Learn some C# in your time off and then put it on your
> CV with a clear conscience!
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: altdotnet@... <altdotnet%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:
> altdotnet@... <altdotnet%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf
> Of Bill Barry
> Sent: 29 September 2009 19:03
> To: altdotnet@... <altdotnet%40yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [altdotnet] VB.NET is not OOP?
>
> I will not hire someone whom I catch in a lie with their CV.
>
> I understand the reasoning for putting it in to get past the
> dilbert-phb-style recruiters but I do not feel that it is justified. If
> I were having this problem, I would contact the company that is using
> the recruiter and let them know that the recruiter doesn't know what
> they are doing. Supply the company with your resume and explain why you
> were turned down and how the recruiter is wrong. Do not expect to get
> the job or even to have your voice heard (but if it isn't, consider
> whether you want to work there in the first place). As prospective
> employees, we can only have 2 goals:
> 1. Get the job we want.
> 2. Get rid of the recruiters who don't know what they are doing.
>
> Recruiters should be helping the company get the people they want to
> hire. That means the recruiter should know what the company wants and
> have a reasonable understanding of the terminology in the field. If the
> recruiter cannot do this then they are not doing their job correctly and
> the company deserves to know. Having a recruiter who doesn't know the
> terminology of the positions they are trying to fill is just like having
> a developer who doesn't know how to write functionality without having
> it be riddled with bugs. In either case as the user you should report bugs.
>
> Gareth Down wrote:
> > You should put C# down if you have to. If you don't know it and your
> > prospective employer queries it, just explain to the that you had to put
> it
> > to get past the recruitment consultants. They're well known for making
> > stupid mistakes like that, so your employer will understand.
> >
> > I found having a "profile" section - just a couple of succinct paragraphs
> at
> > the top of your CV which says stuff like "object orientated design" etc,
> > really helps a lot.
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>  
>

--
Nima

[sidarok]

Just throw this definition to their face :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MSIL

"CIL is an object-oriented
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Object-oriented> assembly
language <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assembly_language>, and is entirely
stack-based <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stack-based_memory_allocation>."

Every language designed to run on CLR has to be object oriented for this
matter.

Who marketed this ? Nobody man, he/she just tries his/her chances to
decrease your rate / salary.

On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 8:45 PM, nima dilmaghani <nimadi@...> wrote:

>
>
> Don't lie.  Put C# on your resume.  And spend a little time learning the
> language.   Its mainly learning the different syntax. .NET is still .NET, VS
> is still VS, the OS is still Windows.
>
> It opens your options in the job market and you will be surprised on how
> fast you pick it up.
>
>
> On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 2:32 PM, Gareth Down <g@...> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> More often than not, at least in the UK and with contract positions, you
>> don't know the name of the company until the very last minute when you get
>> an interview. Not to mention not knowing the name of the person in the
>> company who you need to speak to.
>>
>> It would also put you in bad favour with the recruiter if you go behind
>> their back and speak to the employer directly, especially if you're
>> telling
>> them the recruiter doesn't know what they're talking about!
>>
>> If he's going for a pure VB.Net position, which I assume he is, then
>> putting
>> down C# shouldn't matter. I would never advocate lying that you know C#
>> and
>> going for a C# position because you would definitely get caught out. If
>> it's
>> a VB.Net position and always will be then the employer shouldn't care or
>> even ask about it.
>>
>> However, after thinking about it - you're right, it's best not to lie.
>>
>> So, revised advice: Learn some C# in your time off and then put it on your
>> CV with a clear conscience!
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: altdotnet@... <altdotnet%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:
>> altdotnet@... <altdotnet%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf
>> Of Bill Barry
>> Sent: 29 September 2009 19:03
>> To: altdotnet@... <altdotnet%40yahoogroups.com>
>> Subject: Re: [altdotnet] VB.NET is not OOP?
>>
>> I will not hire someone whom I catch in a lie with their CV.
>>
>> I understand the reasoning for putting it in to get past the
>> dilbert-phb-style recruiters but I do not feel that it is justified. If
>> I were having this problem, I would contact the company that is using
>> the recruiter and let them know that the recruiter doesn't know what
>> they are doing. Supply the company with your resume and explain why you
>> were turned down and how the recruiter is wrong. Do not expect to get
>> the job or even to have your voice heard (but if it isn't, consider
>> whether you want to work there in the first place). As prospective
>> employees, we can only have 2 goals:
>> 1. Get the job we want.
>> 2. Get rid of the recruiters who don't know what they are doing.
>>
>> Recruiters should be helping the company get the people they want to
>> hire. That means the recruiter should know what the company wants and
>> have a reasonable understanding of the terminology in the field. If the
>> recruiter cannot do this then they are not doing their job correctly and
>> the company deserves to know. Having a recruiter who doesn't know the
>> terminology of the positions they are trying to fill is just like having
>> a developer who doesn't know how to write functionality without having
>> it be riddled with bugs. In either case as the user you should report
>> bugs.
>>
>> Gareth Down wrote:
>> > You should put C# down if you have to. If you don't know it and your
>> > prospective employer queries it, just explain to the that you had to put
>> it
>> > to get past the recruitment consultants. They're well known for making
>> > stupid mistakes like that, so your employer will understand.
>> >
>> > I found having a "profile" section - just a couple of succinct
>> paragraphs
>> at
>> > the top of your CV which says stuff like "object orientated design" etc,
>> > really helps a lot.
>>
>> ------------------------------------
>>
>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Nima
>
>  
>

--
Sidar Ok

http://www.sidarok.com
http://www.twitter.com/sidarok

[Mark Seemann]

I don't know how recruiters work in UK/US, but here in DK their bonus is based on the salary of the employee, so they would be interested in pumping up your salary as much as possible...

Mark Seemann
http://blog.ploeh.dk<http://blog.ploeh.dk/>
([phone]

From: altdotnet@... [mailto:altdotnet@...] On Behalf Of Sidar Ok
Sent: 29. september 2009 20:52
To: altdotnet@...
Subject: Re: [altdotnet] VB.NET is not OOP?



Just throw this definition to their face :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MSIL

"CIL is an object-oriented<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Object-oriented> assembly language<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assembly_language>, and is entirely stack-based<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stack-based_memory_allocation>."
Every language designed to run on CLR has to be object oriented for this matter.

Who marketed this ? Nobody man, he/she just tries his/her chances to decrease your rate / salary.

On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 8:45 PM, nima dilmaghani <nimadi@...<mailto:nimadi@...>> wrote:


Don't lie.  Put C# on your resume.  And spend a little time learning the language.   Its mainly learning the different syntax. .NET is still .NET, VS is still VS, the OS is still Windows.

It opens your options in the job market and you will be surprised on how fast you pick it up.

On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 2:32 PM, Gareth Down <g@...<mailto:g@...>> wrote:


More often than not, at least in the UK and with contract positions, you
don't know the name of the company until the very last minute when you get
an interview. Not to mention not knowing the name of the person in the
company who you need to speak to.

It would also put you in bad favour with the recruiter if you go behind
their back and speak to the employer directly, especially if you're telling
them the recruiter doesn't know what they're talking about!

If he's going for a pure VB.Net position, which I assume he is, then putting
down C# shouldn't matter. I would never advocate lying that you know C# and
going for a C# position because you would definitely get caught out. If it's
a VB.Net position and always will be then the employer shouldn't care or
even ask about it.

However, after thinking about it - you're right, it's best not to lie.

So, revised advice: Learn some C# in your time off and then put it on your
CV with a clear conscience!


-----Original Message-----
From: altdotnet@...<mailto:altdotnet%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:altdotnet@...<mailto:altdotnet%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf
Of Bill Barry
Sent: 29 September 2009 19:03
To: altdotnet@...<mailto:altdotnet%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [altdotnet] VB.NET<http://VB.NET> is not OOP?

I will not hire someone whom I catch in a lie with their CV.

I understand the reasoning for putting it in to get past the
dilbert-phb-style recruiters but I do not feel that it is justified. If
I were having this problem, I would contact the company that is using
the recruiter and let them know that the recruiter doesn't know what
they are doing. Supply the company with your resume and explain why you
were turned down and how the recruiter is wrong. Do not expect to get
the job or even to have your voice heard (but if it isn't, consider
whether you want to work there in the first place). As prospective
employees, we can only have 2 goals:
1. Get the job we want.
2. Get rid of the recruiters who don't know what they are doing.

Recruiters should be helping the company get the people they want to
hire. That means the recruiter should know what the company wants and
have a reasonable understanding of the terminology in the field. If the
recruiter cannot do this then they are not doing their job correctly and
the company deserves to know. Having a recruiter who doesn't know the
terminology of the positions they are trying to fill is just like having
a developer who doesn't know how to write functionality without having
it be riddled with bugs. In either case as the user you should report bugs.

Gareth Down wrote:
> You should put C# down if you have to. If you don't know it and your
> prospective employer queries it, just explain to the that you had to put
it
> to get past the recruitment consultants. They're well known for making
> stupid mistakes like that, so your employer will understand.
>
> I found having a "profile" section - just a couple of succinct paragraphs
at
> the top of your CV which says stuff like "object orientated design" etc,
> really helps a lot.
------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links


--
Nima



--
Sidar Ok

http://www.sidarok.com
http://www.twitter.com/sidarok

[volkl96]

--- In altdotnet@..., Mark Seemann <mark@...> wrote:

>
> I don't know how recruiters work in UK/US, but here in DK their bonus is based on the salary of the employee, so they would be interested in pumping up your salary as much as possible...
>
> Mark Seemann
> http://blog.ploeh.dk<http://blog.ploeh.dk/>
> ([phone]
>
> From: altdotnet@... [mailto:altdotnet@...] On Behalf Of Sidar Ok
> Sent: 29. september 2009 20:52
> To: altdotnet@...
> Subject: Re: [altdotnet] VB.NET is not OOP?
>
>
>
> Just throw this definition to their face :
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MSIL
>
> "CIL is an object-oriented<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Object-oriented> assembly language<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assembly_language>, and is entirely stack-based<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stack-based_memory_allocation>."
> Every language designed to run on CLR has to be object oriented for this matter.
>
> Who marketed this ? Nobody man, he/she just tries his/her chances to decrease your rate / salary.
>
> On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 8:45 PM, nima dilmaghani <nimadi@...<mailto:nimadi@...>> wrote:
>
>
> Don't lie.  Put C# on your resume.  And spend a little time learning the language.   Its mainly learning the different syntax. .NET is still .NET, VS is still VS, the OS is still Windows.
>
> It opens your options in the job market and you will be surprised on how fast you pick it up.
>
> On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 2:32 PM, Gareth Down <g@...<mailto:g@...>> wrote:
>
>
> More often than not, at least in the UK and with contract positions, you
> don't know the name of the company until the very last minute when you get
> an interview. Not to mention not knowing the name of the person in the
> company who you need to speak to.
>
> It would also put you in bad favour with the recruiter if you go behind
> their back and speak to the employer directly, especially if you're telling
> them the recruiter doesn't know what they're talking about!
>
> If he's going for a pure VB.Net position, which I assume he is, then putting
> down C# shouldn't matter. I would never advocate lying that you know C# and
> going for a C# position because you would definitely get caught out. If it's
> a VB.Net position and always will be then the employer shouldn't care or
> even ask about it.
>
> However, after thinking about it - you're right, it's best not to lie.
>
> So, revised advice: Learn some C# in your time off and then put it on your
> CV with a clear conscience!
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: altdotnet@...<mailto:altdotnet%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:altdotnet@...<mailto:altdotnet%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf
> Of Bill Barry
> Sent: 29 September 2009 19:03
> To: altdotnet@...<mailto:altdotnet%40yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [altdotnet] VB.NET<http://VB.NET> is not OOP?
>
> I will not hire someone whom I catch in a lie with their CV.
>
> I understand the reasoning for putting it in to get past the
> dilbert-phb-style recruiters but I do not feel that it is justified. If
> I were having this problem, I would contact the company that is using
> the recruiter and let them know that the recruiter doesn't know what
> they are doing. Supply the company with your resume and explain why you
> were turned down and how the recruiter is wrong. Do not expect to get
> the job or even to have your voice heard (but if it isn't, consider
> whether you want to work there in the first place). As prospective
> employees, we can only have 2 goals:
> 1. Get the job we want.
> 2. Get rid of the recruiters who don't know what they are doing.
>
> Recruiters should be helping the company get the people they want to
> hire. That means the recruiter should know what the company wants and
> have a reasonable understanding of the terminology in the field. If the
> recruiter cannot do this then they are not doing their job correctly and
> the company deserves to know. Having a recruiter who doesn't know the
> terminology of the positions they are trying to fill is just like having
> a developer who doesn't know how to write functionality without having
> it be riddled with bugs. In either case as the user you should report bugs.
>
> Gareth Down wrote:
> > You should put C# down if you have to. If you don't know it and your
> > prospective employer queries it, just explain to the that you had to put
> it
> > to get past the recruitment consultants. They're well known for making
> > stupid mistakes like that, so your employer will understand.
> >
> > I found having a "profile" section - just a couple of succinct paragraphs
> at
> > the top of your CV which says stuff like "object orientated design" etc,
> > really helps a lot.
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
> --
> Nima
>
>
>
> --
> Sidar Ok
>
> http://www.sidarok.com
> http://www.twitter.com/sidarok
>

So the issue is not really the recruiter as I have OOP all over my resume.  What's bugging me is her clients; they only want C# Devs because C# is an OOP language and VB.NET is not, that is their perception, and I have heard this many times now.

I explained OOP, C#, VB.NET, CLR and all that to her and she gets it; it's her clients that have been sold on something else for some reason.

[Mark Seemann]

I know that it's not really a lot of help when you are looking for a new job (I recently went through the process myself), but perhaps you could at least take comfort in the thought that if the employers are so narrow-minded, would you like to work for them in any case?

Mark Seemann
http://blog.ploeh.dk<http://blog.ploeh.dk/>
([phone]

From: altdotnet@... [mailto:altdotnet@...] On Behalf Of volkl96
Sent: 29. september 2009 21:38
To: altdotnet@...
Subject: [altdotnet] Re: VB.NET is not OOP?



--- In altdotnet@...<mailto:altdotnet%40yahoogroups.com>, Mark Seemann <mark@...> wrote:

>
> I don't know how recruiters work in UK/US, but here in DK their bonus is based on the salary of the employee, so they would be interested in pumping up your salary as much as possible...
>
> Mark Seemann
> http://blog.ploeh.dk<http://blog.ploeh.dk/>
> ([phone]
>
> From: altdotnet@...<mailto:altdotnet%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:altdotnet@...<mailto:altdotnet%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of Sidar Ok
> Sent: 29. september 2009 20:52
> To: altdotnet@...<mailto:altdotnet%40yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [altdotnet] VB.NET is not OOP?
>
>
>
> Just throw this definition to their face :
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MSIL
>
> "CIL is an object-oriented<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Object-oriented> assembly language<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assembly_language>, and is entirely stack-based<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stack-based_memory_allocation>."
> Every language designed to run on CLR has to be object oriented for this matter.
>
> Who marketed this ? Nobody man, he/she just tries his/her chances to decrease your rate / salary.
>
> On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 8:45 PM, nima dilmaghani <nimadi@...<mailto:nimadi@...>> wrote:
>
>
> Don't lie. Put C# on your resume. And spend a little time learning the language. Its mainly learning the different syntax. .NET is still .NET, VS is still VS, the OS is still Windows.
>
> It opens your options in the job market and you will be surprised on how fast you pick it up.
>
> On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 2:32 PM, Gareth Down <g@...<mailto:g%40garethdown.com><mailto:g@...<mailto:g%40garethdown.com>>> wrote:
>
>
> More often than not, at least in the UK and with contract positions, you
> don't know the name of the company until the very last minute when you get
> an interview. Not to mention not knowing the name of the person in the
> company who you need to speak to.
>
> It would also put you in bad favour with the recruiter if you go behind
> their back and speak to the employer directly, especially if you're telling
> them the recruiter doesn't know what they're talking about!
>
> If he's going for a pure VB.Net position, which I assume he is, then putting
> down C# shouldn't matter. I would never advocate lying that you know C# and
> going for a C# position because you would definitely get caught out. If it's
> a VB.Net position and always will be then the employer shouldn't care or
> even ask about it.
>
> However, after thinking about it - you're right, it's best not to lie.
>
> So, revised advice: Learn some C# in your time off and then put it on your
> CV with a clear conscience!
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: altdotnet@...<mailto:altdotnet%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:altdotnet%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:altdotnet@...<mailto:altdotnet%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:altdotnet%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf
> Of Bill Barry
> Sent: 29 September 2009 19:03
> To: altdotnet@...<mailto:altdotnet%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:altdotnet%40yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [altdotnet] VB.NET<http://VB.NET> is not OOP?
>
> I will not hire someone whom I catch in a lie with their CV.
>
> I understand the reasoning for putting it in to get past the
> dilbert-phb-style recruiters but I do not feel that it is justified. If
> I were having this problem, I would contact the company that is using
> the recruiter and let them know that the recruiter doesn't know what
> they are doing. Supply the company with your resume and explain why you
> were turned down and how the recruiter is wrong. Do not expect to get
> the job or even to have your voice heard (but if it isn't, consider
> whether you want to work there in the first place). As prospective
> employees, we can only have 2 goals:
> 1. Get the job we want.
> 2. Get rid of the recruiters who don't know what they are doing.
>
> Recruiters should be helping the company get the people they want to
> hire. That means the recruiter should know what the company wants and
> have a reasonable understanding of the terminology in the field. If the
> recruiter cannot do this then they are not doing their job correctly and
> the company deserves to know. Having a recruiter who doesn't know the
> terminology of the positions they are trying to fill is just like having
> a developer who doesn't know how to write functionality without having
> it be riddled with bugs. In either case as the user you should report bugs.
>
> Gareth Down wrote:
> > You should put C# down if you have to. If you don't know it and your
> > prospective employer queries it, just explain to the that you had to put
> it
> > to get past the recruitment consultants. They're well known for making
> > stupid mistakes like that, so your employer will understand.
> >
> > I found having a "profile" section - just a couple of succinct paragraphs
> at
> > the top of your CV which says stuff like "object orientated design" etc,
> > really helps a lot.
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
> --
> Nima
>
>
>
> --
> Sidar Ok
>
> http://www.sidarok.com
> http://www.twitter.com/sidarok
>

So the issue is not really the recruiter as I have OOP all over my resume. What's bugging me is her clients; they only want C# Devs because C# is an OOP language and VB.NET is not, that is their perception, and I have heard this many times now.

I explained OOP, C#, VB.NET, CLR and all that to her and she gets it; it's her clients that have been sold on something else for some reason.

[Paul Cowan-7]

Recruiters are the instrument of the devil.

I don't know what they are like outside of th UK but I really wish we did
not have to deal with these morons.


Cheers

Paul Cowan

Cutting-Edge Solutions (Scotland)

http://thesoftwaresimpleton.blogspot.com/



2009/9/29 volkl96 <gregarobinson@...>

>
>
> --- In altdotnet@... <altdotnet%40yahoogroups.com>, Mark
> Seemann <mark@...> wrote:
> >
> > I don't know how recruiters work in UK/US, but here in DK their bonus is
> based on the salary of the employee, so they would be interested in pumping
> up your salary as much as possible...
> >
> > Mark Seemann
> > http://blog.ploeh.dk<http://blog.ploeh.dk/>
> > ([phone]
> >
> > From: altdotnet@... <altdotnet%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:
> altdotnet@... <altdotnet%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of
> Sidar Ok
> > Sent: 29. september 2009 20:52
> > To: altdotnet@... <altdotnet%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Subject: Re: [altdotnet] VB.NET <http://vb.net/> is not OOP?
> >
> >
> >
> > Just throw this definition to their face :
> >
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MSIL
> >
> > "CIL is an object-oriented<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Object-oriented>
> assembly language<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assembly_language>, and is
> entirely stack-based<
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stack-based_memory_allocation>."
> > Every language designed to run on CLR has to be object oriented for this
> matter.
> >
> > Who marketed this ? Nobody man, he/she just tries his/her chances to
> decrease your rate / salary.
> >
> > On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 8:45 PM, nima dilmaghani <nimadi@...<mailto:
> nimadi@...>> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Don't lie. Put C# on your resume. And spend a little time learning the
> language. Its mainly learning the different syntax. .NET is still .NET, VS
> is still VS, the OS is still Windows.
> >
> > It opens your options in the job market and you will be surprised on how
> fast you pick it up.
> >
> > On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 2:32 PM, Gareth Down <g@...<g%40garethdown.com>
> <mailto:g@... <g%40garethdown.com>>> wrote:
> >
> >
> > More often than not, at least in the UK and with contract positions, you
> > don't know the name of the company until the very last minute when you
> get
> > an interview. Not to mention not knowing the name of the person in the
> > company who you need to speak to.
> >
> > It would also put you in bad favour with the recruiter if you go behind
> > their back and speak to the employer directly, especially if you're
> telling
> > them the recruiter doesn't know what they're talking about!
> >
> > If he's going for a pure VB.Net position, which I assume he is, then
> putting
> > down C# shouldn't matter. I would never advocate lying that you know C#
> and
> > going for a C# position because you would definitely get caught out. If
> it's
> > a VB.Net position and always will be then the employer shouldn't care or
> > even ask about it.
> >
> > However, after thinking about it - you're right, it's best not to lie.
> >
> > So, revised advice: Learn some C# in your time off and then put it on
> your
> > CV with a clear conscience!
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: altdotnet@... <altdotnet%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:
> altdotnet%40yahoogroups.com <altdotnet%2540yahoogroups.com>> [mailto:
> altdotnet@... <altdotnet%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:
> altdotnet%40yahoogroups.com <altdotnet%2540yahoogroups.com>>] On Behalf
> > Of Bill Barry
> > Sent: 29 September 2009 19:03
> > To: altdotnet@... <altdotnet%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:
> altdotnet%40yahoogroups.com <altdotnet%2540yahoogroups.com>>
> > Subject: Re: [altdotnet] VB.NET <http://vb.net/><http://VB.NET<http://vb.net/>>
> is not OOP?
> >
> > I will not hire someone whom I catch in a lie with their CV.
> >
> > I understand the reasoning for putting it in to get past the
> > dilbert-phb-style recruiters but I do not feel that it is justified. If
> > I were having this problem, I would contact the company that is using
> > the recruiter and let them know that the recruiter doesn't know what
> > they are doing. Supply the company with your resume and explain why you
> > were turned down and how the recruiter is wrong. Do not expect to get
> > the job or even to have your voice heard (but if it isn't, consider
> > whether you want to work there in the first place). As prospective
> > employees, we can only have 2 goals:
> > 1. Get the job we want.
> > 2. Get rid of the recruiters who don't know what they are doing.
> >
> > Recruiters should be helping the company get the people they want to
> > hire. That means the recruiter should know what the company wants and
> > have a reasonable understanding of the terminology in the field. If the
> > recruiter cannot do this then they are not doing their job correctly and
> > the company deserves to know. Having a recruiter who doesn't know the
> > terminology of the positions they are trying to fill is just like having
> > a developer who doesn't know how to write functionality without having
> > it be riddled with bugs. In either case as the user you should report
> bugs.
> >
> > Gareth Down wrote:
> > > You should put C# down if you have to. If you don't know it and your
> > > prospective employer queries it, just explain to the that you had to
> put
> > it
> > > to get past the recruitment consultants. They're well known for making
> > > stupid mistakes like that, so your employer will understand.
> > >
> > > I found having a "profile" section - just a couple of succinct
> paragraphs
> > at
> > > the top of your CV which says stuff like "object orientated design"
> etc,
> > > really helps a lot.
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> > --
> > Nima
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Sidar Ok
> >
> > http://www.sidarok.com
> > http://www.twitter.com/sidarok
> >
>
> So the issue is not really the recruiter as I have OOP all over my resume.
> What's bugging me is her clients; they only want C# Devs because C# is an
> OOP language and VB.NET <http://vb.net/> is not, that is their perception,
> and I have heard this many times now.
>
> I explained OOP, C#, VB.NET <http://vb.net/>, CLR and all that to her and
> she gets it; it's her clients that have been sold on something else for some
> reason.
>
>
>

[Michael D. Brown]

It's because of its heritage...VB6 was not a strictly OO language...although it was definitely possible to follow OO techniques with it. A lot of people have the misconception that VB.NET is just VB6 on .NET

From: altdotnet@... [mailto:altdotnet@...] On Behalf Of Roberta Arcoverde
Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2009 1:06 PM
To: altdotnet@...
Subject: Re: [altdotnet] VB.NET is not OOP?



Well, I have never heard such a thing. I mean, you've got objects, methods, inheritance, classes, abstraction, polymorphism... how can it not be object-oriented?

Im not getting into the vb.net<http://vb.net> vs. C# discussion (im a C# developer myself), but knowing that vb is being categorized as non-OO really surprises (and somehow confuses) me.

[John Petersen-2]

I have to echo the sentiments of others and say that your best interests are
served by being forthright. If anything,
your candor and honesty will serve to benefit, not hinder you. If you go
into an interview talking the talk of a C# expert or
an expert in anything else and you get pegged on it in an interview, it is a
bad experience.

Recruiters have an incentive to place you ....at almost any cost. They
really don't care about your integrity..especially
in these tough times where companies really don't need to pay their fees.

< JVP >


On Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 2:03 PM, Bill Barry <after.fallout@...> wrote:

>
>
> I will not hire someone whom I catch in a lie with their CV.
>
> I understand the reasoning for putting it in to get past the
> dilbert-phb-style recruiters but I do not feel that it is justified. If
> I were having this problem, I would contact the company that is using
> the recruiter and let them know that the recruiter doesn't know what
> they are doing. Supply the company with your resume and explain why you
> were turned down and how the recruiter is wrong. Do not expect to get
> the job or even to have your voice heard (but if it isn't, consider
> whether you want to work there in the first place). As prospective
> employees, we can only have 2 goals:
> 1. Get the job we want.
> 2. Get rid of the recruiters who don't know what they are doing.
>
> Recruiters should be helping the company get the people they want to
> hire. That means the recruiter should know what the company wants and
> have a reasonable understanding of the terminology in the field. If the
> recruiter cannot do this then they are not doing their job correctly and
> the company deserves to know. Having a recruiter who doesn't know the
> terminology of the positions they are trying to fill is just like having
> a developer who doesn't know how to write functionality without having
> it be riddled with bugs. In either case as the user you should report bugs.
>
>
> Gareth Down wrote:
> > You should put C# down if you have to. If you don't know it and your
> > prospective employer queries it, just explain to the that you had to put
> it
> > to get past the recruitment consultants. They're well known for making
> > stupid mistakes like that, so your employer will understand.
> >
> > I found having a "profile" section - just a couple of succinct paragraphs
> at
> > the top of your CV which says stuff like "object orientated design" etc,
> > really helps a lot.
>
>  
>