VM system disk arrangement

[Thomas Kern]

I still have the FORTRAN G and PLIF compilers for VM/370 and z/VM. I
have been searching/resurrecting old utilities from Waterloo mods, VM
Workshops. I wish I could find a readable copy of the old MichMods tape,
I had pulled a few programs from that and converted them to work in
VM/370 when that was my work system.

/Tom

kerravon86 wrote:

> --- In H390-VM@... <mailto:H390-VM%40yahoogroups.com>,
> Thomas Kern <tlk_sysprog@...> wrote:
>>
>> the REXX compiler). So when I needed to write a program to read,
>> analyze, summarize a Spool File backup tape, I wrote it in FORTRAN. >
> I redid it in PLI a year later but it used more CPU time.
>> I think the
>> PLIOPT or VS/PLI could have been better, but I don't have
>> those in my magic bag of tricks.
>
> Ok, what is in your magic bag of tricks now, and
> would Fortran still be selected from your new
> bag in the same circumstance? As we don't have a
> rexx compiler for VM/370-380 either.
>
> And can you explain what these Fortrans have in
> relation to Fortran 4?
>
> BFN. Paul.

[Robert O'Hara]

--- In H390-VM@..., Thomas Kern <tlk_sysprog@...> wrote:
>
> I still have the FORTRAN G and PLIF compilers for VM/370 and z/VM.

The FORTRAN G and PLI/F compilers are included in the VM/370 5-pack system...

[Robin Brooks-2]

--- In H390-VM@..., "kerravon86" <kerravon86@...> wrote:

>
> --- In H390-VM@..., "Robin Brooks" <robin_brooks@> wrote:
> >
> > Could you include FORTRAN G or H as well please
>
> If you don't mind me asking, are you doing something
> in particular with Fortran?
>
> I don't think I've seen someone show an interest in
> that before.
>
> BFN.  Paul.
>

Paul, I have some very old programs from the 60's that work with IBM Fortran G & H and make full use of all the IBM language extensions. They would need a lot of conversion effort to make them work with any other Fortran. It was my first language and was almost universally taught to engineers in the 70's and 80's. It is still widely used and favoured for heavy numerical calculation.
Regards
Robin  

[pfg504]

What about using WATFIV which I uploaded some time ago?

Paul

--- In H390-VM@..., Tony Harminc <tharminc@...> wrote:

>
> 2009/6/10 kerravon86 <kerravon86@...>:
>
> > What sort of environment only has FORTRAN as an
> > option? And what would you write in if a more
> > normal suite of options was available?
>
> Normal? In the 1960s through most of the 80s, FORTRAN was *the*
> scientific and engineering language. What else would you write in?
> When I was in 1st year engineering in 1972, FORTRAN was the only
> language taught to engineers, except for the Engineering Science
> (advanced) students, who were taught PL/I. Computer Science types were
> also taught Algol (60), and of course various real and imaginary
> machine and assembler languages.
>
> BTW, the university I attended and later worked at did not have a
> COBOL compiler installed at any time from 1972 to 1980, as far as I
> know. Who would want such a thing?
>
> >> If there is a free FORTRAN H compiler, I want it.
> >
> > Looks like you're in luck there. It's amazing what
> > pops out of the blue hanging around these lists.
> >
> > One question though - are either of these Fortran 4?
>
> FORTRAN G and H are both FORTRAN IV. FORTRAN II and earlier were
> pretty much gone by 1970 or so.
>
> Tony H.
>

[kerravon86]

--- In H390-VM@..., Thomas Kern <tlk_sysprog@...> wrote:
>
> I still have the FORTRAN G and PLIF compilers for VM/370 and z/VM.

So even today, for a non-scientific app, you'd
choose Fortran over PL/1 or Cobol or C or
assembler in similar circumstances?

As much as I hate to admit it, I don't know of
any language better than Cobol for business
applications. Perhaps Java is a suitable
replacement? I'm not familiar with Java. Or
maybe Ada?

C of course is my choice for any utilities
anywhere, but it's not really suitable for
general application use (too easy to screw
things up).

BFN.  Paul.

[Thomas Kern]

For non-scientific/non-statistical apps, I would choose PLI over COBOL,
C, Java, assembler. I can debug COBOL,C,Java but I have not written
whole apps in those languages. I don't like using Assembler for more
than subroutines and utility programs not bigger apps.

If I had to write something that had a lot of parsing of character data
and then a lot of numerical processing, I would do a mixed program. PLI
main and parsing routines but FORTRAN subroutines for the real numerical
processing.

/Tom

kerravon86 wrote:

> --- In H390-VM@... <mailto:H390-VM%40yahoogroups.com>,
> Thomas Kern <tlk_sysprog@...> wrote:
>>
>> I still have the FORTRAN G and PLIF compilers for VM/370 and z/VM.
>
> So even today, for a non-scientific app, you'd
> choose Fortran over PL/1 or Cobol or C or
> assembler in similar circumstances?
>
> As much as I hate to admit it, I don't know of
> any language better than Cobol for business
> applications. Perhaps Java is a suitable
> replacement? I'm not familiar with Java. Or
> maybe Ada?
>
> C of course is my choice for any utilities
> anywhere, but it's not really suitable for
> general application use (too easy to screw
> things up).
>
> BFN. Paul.

[Tuomo Stauffer]

Just my $0.02 and a couple of languages over 40 years. Fortran is actually
great but very much underrated language. Basically the only language where
you get what you see, very efficient, easy to make compilers even for vector
and/or multi-threaded programs, etc. And yes, Cobol is the business language
for many reasons, not least the arithmetic. Anyone ever done 'C' decimal
arithmetic in language, not using one of the thousands of the almost
correct(!) libraries? Assembler (IBM 360..390, whatever), easiest language
in the world - other assemblers are kind of too wordy. Now - Prolog and LISP
are real languages, very powerful. APL was fun but..PL/I - arguable most
powerful of modern languages but seemed / seems just too complicated for
most developers to write good code, maybe that's why 'C' came out - PL/S
would have been better?

Anyway, for each their own - today I love Erelang, use Python but (shame on
me) almost as much REXX because it just is even more flexible / powerful.
Any day pure 'C' before C++ or C# (which really is not ready for prime time
yet, if ever - suffers from the feture / library creep!). Missing Algol
(actually Simula, object oriented before most talking about OOP were even
born!), the easynes and the speed of Delphi (and other old Borland systems),
etc, etc.

My take on languages is that any / all will work. More important is the
maintainability, etc - and it is kind of sad that source / configuration
management systems in smaller systems still are no match to mainframe
systems since mid 70's? It still amazes me that someone argues about
languages, they all are more or less easy to learn, some are just more
suitable in one purpose / environment than in some other but in the end they
all do the same thing, command the computers to execute something.

have a nice day - tuomo

On Fri, Jun 12, 2009 at 6:19 PM, kerravon86 <kerravon86@...> wrote:

>
>
> --- In H390-VM@... <H390-VM%40yahoogroups.com>, Thomas Kern
> <tlk_sysprog@...> wrote:
> >
> > I still have the FORTRAN G and PLIF compilers for VM/370 and z/VM.
>
> So even today, for a non-scientific app, you'd
> choose Fortran over PL/1 or Cobol or C or
> assembler in similar circumstances?
>
> As much as I hate to admit it, I don't know of
> any language better than Cobol for business
> applications. Perhaps Java is a suitable
> replacement? I'm not familiar with Java. Or
> maybe Ada?
>
> C of course is my choice for any utilities
> anywhere, but it's not really suitable for
> general application use (too easy to screw
> things up).
>
> BFN. Paul.
>
>  
>

[kerravon86]

--- In H390-VM@..., Tuomo Stauffer <tuomo@...> wrote:
>
> maintainability, etc - and it is kind of sad that
> source / configuration management systems in smaller
> systems still are no match to mainframe systems
> since mid 70's?

SVN is available for small systems, and before that,
CVS. These are extremely powerful systems and I know
of nothing superior. What on the mainframe from the
mid 70s in any way competes with those?

> It still amazes me that someone argues about
> languages

Without a common language, you can't take your
application to the computer you be working on
tomorrow. I have a bag of tricks I like to take
with me too, and it's all written in C. Turning
up at a site without a free C compiler is a
scary prospect.

BFN.  Paul.

[Tuomo Stauffer]

Hi,

Yes SVN, CVS, git, etc or even Source Safe, Accurev, ClearCase (save
me, please!), whatever are not too bad but only cover a very small
part what source / configuration management needs, IMHO. Unfortunately
CA bought Panvalet, Panexec, others at the same time and stopped
enhancing them but I still see daydreams of systems we had / I
designed for other companies later! Developers didn't need JCL, shell,
make or any other command language knowledge, development, test and
production versions were taken care by system , not by developer (no
way to lose anything, ever!), one keystroke changed a global CICS or
IMS or whatever system to next version or back to previous if needed,
supporting huge (I mean huge!) applications in global systems were
easy (kind of) - all the documentation, versions, source changes, who
did what, when, where and why, etc were just one keystroke away, a
change in database / screen whatever didn't need developers going
through hundreds, maybe thousands, of applications, the system
propagated the changes, compiled / created new environments, run
regression tests, reported to QA department for checking and to accept
the changes, etc, etc..

I really was disappointed when started designing, supporting and
fixing smaller systems - no data catalogs / dictionaries / mostly even
no definition libraries except in some middle size systems, missing
track records, no real documentation anywhere, try to grep (horror!)
your way to find where the 'C' macro definition is done, where
redefined, was the correct library used when compiling / creating
object, are the environment variables correct in execution
environment, on which userid the application should run, did someone
hardcode filenames or program names and why, did the vendor change
libraries, who and why secured programs, directories, database wrong
and when, etc - you know, the normal day? All that was automated a
long, long time ago in mainframes - assuming the systems programmers
had a clue what they were doing! Lost art?

Yes, a common language is nice but in that case I would argue that
Fortran still beats C, heh! Yes, C is not a bad language; I just don't
like some of its idiosyncrasies, etc. What especially would be nice
would be the options in procedures, as in PL/I, reentrant, task, etc –
it would solve a lot of current problems in multiple cpu / core /
cloud systems. Also, the fixed argument passing is kind of weird,
artificial ARGV, etc are clumsy, break often with new hardware (too
many nights trying to fix code I see first time!), unsecure coding is
just not too easy, it often look most obvious in first try, and so on.
But no language is perfect, so maybe we should stay in C – definitely
not C++ or C# (and ilk), and in case of business programs select one
which can natively do fixed point arithmetic, a must in business!

have a nice day - tuomo

On Fri, Jun 12, 2009 at 8:14 PM, kerravon86 <kerravon86@...> wrote:

>
>
> --- In H390-VM@..., Tuomo Stauffer <tuomo@...> wrote:
> >
> > maintainability, etc - and it is kind of sad that
> > source / configuration management systems in smaller
> > systems still are no match to mainframe systems
> > since mid 70's?
>
> SVN is available for small systems, and before that,
> CVS. These are extremely powerful systems and I know
> of nothing superior. What on the mainframe from the
> mid 70s in any way competes with those?
>
> > It still amazes me that someone argues about
> > languages
>
> Without a common language, you can't take your
> application to the computer you be working on
> tomorrow. I have a bag of tricks I like to take
> with me too, and it's all written in C. Turning
> up at a site without a free C compiler is a
> scary prospect.
>
> BFN. Paul.
>
>

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[zenith89-2]

--- In H390-VM@..., "Kevin Leonard" <kleonard_list@...> wrote:
>
> > If there is a free FORTRAN H compiler, I want it.
>
> Tom:
>
> The OS/360 21.8 FORTRAN H compiler is at:
>

Thanks for doing this, I've tried it but I have a problem
running programs compiled with this compiler ...

q txtlib
TXTLIB   = FORTLIB
R; T=0.01/0.03 02:42:26
type test fortran a

      REAL X,Y,Z                                                        TES00010
      X=2.0                                                             TES00020
      Y=3.0                                                             TES00030
      Z=X/Y                                                             TES00040
      WRITE(6,100)Z                                                     TES00050
100   FORMAT(' HELLO, X/Y=', E20.7)                                     TES00060
      STOP                                                              TES00070
      END                                                               TES00080

R; T=0.01/0.01 02:42:30
fortranh test
FORTRAN IV (H) compilation complete.
R; T=0.03/0.12 02:42:35
load test (start
THE FOLLOWING NAMES ARE UNDEFINED:
 ERR#2
EXECUTION BEGINS...                                                            
DMSITP141T PROTECTION EXCEPTION OCCURRED AT 020162 IN ROUTINE TEST.
CMS

What TXTLIBs does FORTRANH need? I thought FORTRAN H used the same library as FORTRAN G.

...CPV

[Kevin Leonard-2]

> What TXTLIBs does FORTRANH need? I thought FORTRAN H used
> the same library as FORTRAN G.

It should.  Compiling your program, I get:

q txtlib
TXTLIB   = PLILIB   CMSLIB   COB360R  FORTLIB  SNOBOL4  TSOLIB
Ready;
l fortlib txtlib * (L
FILENAME FILETYPE  FM  FORMAT    RECS BLOCKS    DATE    TIME   LABEL
FORTLIB  TXTLIB    Y2  F    80   1944    195 08/28/02   21:36 MNT19E
Ready;
fortranh test
DMSFTH000I FORTRAN IV (H) compilation complete.
Ready;
fi 6 term
Ready;
load test (clear start
DMSLIO740I EXECUTION BEGINS...
HELLO, X/Y=       0.6666666E 00
Ready;

--

[Dave Wade]

Works fine for me too...

Dave Wade G4UGM
Illegitimi Non Carborundum

> -----Original Message-----
> From: H390-VM@... [mailto:H390-VM@...] On Behalf
> Of Kevin Leonard
> Sent: 14 June 2009 20:43
> To: H390-VM@...
> Subject: [H390-VM] Re: VM system disk arrangement
>
> > What TXTLIBs does FORTRANH need? I thought FORTRAN H used
> > the same library as FORTRAN G.
>
> It should.  Compiling your program, I get:
>
> q txtlib
> TXTLIB   = PLILIB   CMSLIB   COB360R  FORTLIB  SNOBOL4  TSOLIB
> Ready;
> l fortlib txtlib * (L
> FILENAME FILETYPE  FM  FORMAT    RECS BLOCKS    DATE    TIME   LABEL
> FORTLIB  TXTLIB    Y2  F    80   1944    195 08/28/02   21:36 MNT19E
> Ready;
> fortranh test
> DMSFTH000I FORTRAN IV (H) compilation complete.
> Ready;
> fi 6 term
> Ready;
> load test (clear start
> DMSLIO740I EXECUTION BEGINS...
> HELLO, X/Y=       0.6666666E 00
> Ready;
>
> --
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

[Dave Wade]

What I meant to say was works fine, but I can't find ERR#2 which was flagged
as missing in Zenth89's attempt in my load map or any TXTLIB....

Dave Wade G4UGM
Illegitimi Non Carborundum

> -----Original Message-----
> From: H390-VM@... [mailto:H390-VM@...] On Behalf
> Of Dave Wade
> Sent: 14 June 2009 21:01
> To: H390-VM@...
> Subject: RE: [H390-VM] Re: VM system disk arrangement
>
> Works fine for me too...
>
> Dave Wade G4UGM
> Illegitimi Non Carborundum
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: H390-VM@... [mailto:H390-VM@...] On Behalf
> > Of Kevin Leonard
> > Sent: 14 June 2009 20:43
> > To: H390-VM@...
> > Subject: [H390-VM] Re: VM system disk arrangement
> >
> > > What TXTLIBs does FORTRANH need? I thought FORTRAN H used
> > > the same library as FORTRAN G.
> >
> > It should.  Compiling your program, I get:
> >
> > q txtlib
> > TXTLIB   = PLILIB   CMSLIB   COB360R  FORTLIB  SNOBOL4  TSOLIB
> > Ready;
> > l fortlib txtlib * (L
> > FILENAME FILETYPE  FM  FORMAT    RECS BLOCKS    DATE    TIME   LABEL
> > FORTLIB  TXTLIB    Y2  F    80   1944    195 08/28/02   21:36 MNT19E
> > Ready;
> > fortranh test
> > DMSFTH000I FORTRAN IV (H) compilation complete.
> > Ready;
> > fi 6 term
> > Ready;
> > load test (clear start
> > DMSLIO740I EXECUTION BEGINS...
> > HELLO, X/Y=       0.6666666E 00
> > Ready;
> >
> > --
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

[Kevin Leonard-2]

> What I meant to say was works fine, but I can't find ERR#2
> which was flagged as missing in Zenth89's attempt in my
> load map or any TXTLIB....

Good point, I went right past that.  My load map doesn't
have ERR#2 either.  Perhaps if Zenth89 would post his load
map we could get a better idea what's happening.

--

[zenith89-2]

--- In H390-VM@..., "Kevin Leonard" <kleonard_list@...> wrote:

>
> > What I meant to say was works fine, but I can't find ERR#2
> > which was flagged as missing in Zenth89's attempt in my
> > load map or any TXTLIB....
>
> Good point, I went right past that.  My load map doesn't
> have ERR#2 either.  Perhaps if Zenth89 would post his load
> map we could get a better idea what's happening.
>
> --
>

Thanks, here it is ...

 MAIN     SD 020000
 INVALID CARD - *         WATMAC   MACLIB   A1 192      2/13/78    9:08
 INVALID CARD - *         CMSLIB   MACLIB   S2 MNT190   3/08/82   14:37
 INVALID CARD - *         OSMACRO  MACLIB   S2 MNT190  12/09/78    5:02
 INVALID CARD - *         OSMACRO1 MACLIB   S2 MNT190  12/09/78    5:02
 INVALID CARD - *         TSOMAC   MACLIB   S2 MNT190  12/09/78   12:22
 INVALID CARD - *         IBCOM#   ASSEMBLE A1 192      1/31/06   21:22
 IBCOM@   SD 020118
 IBCOM#      020118
 IHCER@      020118
 THE FOLLOWING NAMES ARE UNDEFINED:
 ERR#2

[Kevin Leonard-2]

 

> Thanks, here it is ...
>
>  MAIN     SD 020000
>  INVALID CARD - *         WATMAC   MACLIB   A1 192      2/13/78    9:08
>  INVALID CARD - *         CMSLIB   MACLIB   S2 MNT190   3/08/82   14:37
>  INVALID CARD - *         OSMACRO  MACLIB   S2 MNT190  12/09/78    5:02
>  INVALID CARD - *         OSMACRO1 MACLIB   S2 MNT190  12/09/78    5:02
>  INVALID CARD - *         TSOMAC   MACLIB   S2 MNT190  12/09/78   12:22
>  INVALID CARD - *         IBCOM#   ASSEMBLE A1 192      1/31/06   21:22
>  IBCOM@   SD 020118
>  IBCOM#      020118
>  IHCER@      020118
>  THE FOLLOWING NAMES ARE UNDEFINED:
>  ERR#2

It looks like you're picking up WATFIV subroutine references.
Is it possible that your TXTLIB sequence has WATLIB ahead
of FORTLIB?  Say "Q TXTLIB" to display active TXTLIBs.

I tried:

fi 6 term
global txtlib watlib fortlib
load test (clear start

That produced:

DMSLIO201W THE FOLLOWING NAMES ARE UNDEFINED:
 ERR#2
DMSLIO740I EXECUTION BEGINS...
DMSITP141T PROTECTION EXCEPTION OCCURRED AT 020162 IN ROUTINE TEST.
CMS

which looks like your problem.

Before you issue the LOAD command, make sure the IBM
FORTLIB TXTLIB is first.  Say:

global txtlib fortlib

--

[zenith89-2]

--- In H390-VM@..., "Kevin Leonard" <kleonard_list@...> wrote:
>
> It looks like you're picking up WATFIV subroutine references.
> ........
> Before you issue the LOAD command, make sure the IBM
> FORTLIB TXTLIB is first.  Say:
>
> global txtlib fortlib

I had "global txtlib fortlib" already, but your solution sure helped, thanks. I had the WATFIV stuff on an accessed disk and it was apparently picking something up from there. I released the disk and my little test program now works fine.

And thanks again for getting FORTRAN H going, its an excellent addition to our VM systems and I think was really the last big missing item.

...Chris

[jsganino-2]

--- In H390-VM@..., "zenith89" <zenith89@...> wrote:

>
> --- In H390-VM@..., "Kevin Leonard" <kleonard_list@> wrote:
> >
> > > If there is a free FORTRAN H compiler, I want it.
> >
> > Tom:
> >
> > The OS/360 21.8 FORTRAN H compiler is at:
> >
>
> Thanks for doing this, I've tried it but I have a problem
> running programs compiled with this compiler ...
>
> q txtlib
> TXTLIB   = FORTLIB
> R; T=0.01/0.03 02:42:26
> type test fortran a
>
>       REAL X,Y,Z                                                        TES00010
>       X=2.0                                                             TES00020
>       Y=3.0                                                             TES00030
>       Z=X/Y                                                             TES00040
>       WRITE(6,100)Z                                                     TES00050
> 100   FORMAT(' HELLO, X/Y=', E20.7)                                     TES00060
>       STOP                                                              TES00070
>       END                                                               TES00080
>
> R; T=0.01/0.01 02:42:30
> fortranh test
> FORTRAN IV (H) compilation complete.
> R; T=0.03/0.12 02:42:35
> load test (start
> THE FOLLOWING NAMES ARE UNDEFINED:
>  ERR#2
> EXECUTION BEGINS...                                                            
> DMSITP141T PROTECTION EXCEPTION OCCURRED AT 020162 IN ROUTINE TEST.
> CMS
>
> What TXTLIBs does FORTRANH need? I thought FORTRAN H used the same library as FORTRAN G.
>
> ...CPV
>

I have a vague recollection of something we called FORTMOD2 TXTLIB that was needed to run programs compiled with the FORTRAN H compiler.  

Jim

[zenith89-2]

--- In H390-VM@..., "jsganino" <James.Ganino@...> wrote:

> I have a vague recollection of something we called FORTMOD2 TXTLIB that was needed to run programs compiled with the FORTRAN H compiler.  
>
> Jim
>

Thanks, I got it going, I had the WATFIV source code & libraries on an accessed disk and that was causing the problem.

Fortran H could use the same library as G but I believe there was an alternate library for Fortran H that was in some way "better" and that wasn't free. Where I worked it was called FORT2EEH or something like that.

...Chris

[Kevin Leonard-2]

Chris:

> I had "global txtlib fortlib" already, but your solution
> sure helped, thanks. I had the WATFIV stuff on an accessed
> disk and it was apparently picking something up from there.
> I released the disk and my little test program now works fine.
>
> And thanks again for getting FORTRAN H going, its an excellent
> addition to our VM systems and I think was really the last big
> missing item.

Glad things are working for you....

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