Waltop class?

[Favux ...]

Hi,

Another libwacom question for Waltop tablets.  Could/should I create a
WCLASS_Waltop?  Or should I follow the lead in wcmUSB.c in which case
the valid classes include Intuos4, Bamboo, and Graphire?  Or should I
leave in the Waltop tablet data the class as WCLASS_UNKNOWN?  Either
assign it unknown or leave class out altogether?

Favux

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[Peter Hutterer-3]

On Mon, Apr 30, 2012 at 10:10:59PM -0500, Favux ... wrote:
> Another libwacom question for Waltop tablets.  Could/should I create a
> WCLASS_Waltop?  Or should I follow the lead in wcmUSB.c in which case
> the valid classes include Intuos4, Bamboo, and Graphire?  Or should I
> leave in the Waltop tablet data the class as WCLASS_UNKNOWN?  Either
> assign it unknown or leave class out altogether?

Aren't the Waltops just largely identical to some of the wacom model lines?
If so, just pick the model line that is the closest. If not, it's better to
create new classes for each Waltop line of models instead of one Waltop
class.

Cheers,
  Peter

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[Favux ...]

Hi Peter,

On Mon, Apr 30, 2012 at 10:54 PM, Peter Hutterer
<peter.hutterer@...> wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 30, 2012 at 10:10:59PM -0500, Favux ... wrote:
>> Another libwacom question for Waltop tablets.  Could/should I create a
>> WCLASS_Waltop?  Or should I follow the lead in wcmUSB.c in which case
>> the valid classes include Intuos4, Bamboo, and Graphire?  Or should I
>> leave in the Waltop tablet data the class as WCLASS_UNKNOWN?  Either
>> assign it unknown or leave class out altogether?
>
> Aren't the Waltops just largely identical to some of the wacom model lines?

I gather the wcmUSB.c assignments were based on the attempted linux
driver Waltop had.  If true those correspondences  were determined by
Waltop.  I presume they based that on features, resolution, and maybe
pressure levels.  I haven't really tried to determine correspondence
with features.  The Waltop's can have things like pad buttons or hot
keys, scroll wheels, rings, and pucks but they apparently aren't
compatible with the Wacom equivalents which is why Nick is putting
them on the evdev driver.

The major difference I see between Waltop tablets is that the latest
Waltop models have battery-less styli and resolutions comparable to
the Intuos4.  So there are at least two classes.  Three if resolution
is considered.

> If so, just pick the model line that is the closest. If not, it's better to
> create new classes for each Waltop line of models instead of one Waltop
> class.

I'll go with the wcmUSB.c until Nick decides differently.  And by the
way there are a lot more Waltop PIDs in wcmUSB.c than those covered on
the DIGImend site.  Right now there are seven data files which should
be it for while.  That's mostly why I was thinking of one class.

Favux

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[Nikolai Kondrashov-2]

On 05/01/2012 07:30 AM, Favux ... wrote:
> I gather the wcmUSB.c assignments were based on the attempted linux
> driver Waltop had.

At least they look very much like the ones in the original Waltop driver
package.

> If true those correspondences  were determined by Waltop.  I presume they
> based that on features, resolution, and maybe pressure levels.  I haven't
> really tried to determine correspondence with features.  The Waltop's can
> have things like pad buttons or hot keys, scroll wheels, rings, and pucks
> but they apparently aren't compatible with the Wacom equivalents which is
> why Nick is putting them on the evdev driver.

The original Waltop driver didn't support any frame controls.
I'm putting them on evdev, because it's simpler and works well enough.

> The major difference I see between Waltop tablets is that the latest
> Waltop models have battery-less styli and resolutions comparable to
> the Intuos4.  So there are at least two classes.  Three if resolution
> is considered.
>
>> If so, just pick the model line that is the closest. If not, it's better to
>> create new classes for each Waltop line of models instead of one Waltop
>> class.
>
> I'll go with the wcmUSB.c until Nick decides differently.  And by the
> way there are a lot more Waltop PIDs in wcmUSB.c than those covered on
> the DIGImend site.  Right now there are seven data files which should
> be it for while.  That's mostly why I was thinking of one class.

I would very much like to have a single class for generic tablets instead.
They're all very similar and the evdev interface is capable of providing all
the required information about them. It does that for all the tablets
handled by hid-waltop, hid-uclogic and hid-kye drivers, at least.

I've been attempting to implement this maybe twice in the past, but didn't
have time or dedication to finish it.

Sincerely,
Nick

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[Nikolai Kondrashov-2]

On 05/01/2012 03:44 PM, Nikolai Kondrashov wrote:
> I would very much like to have a single class for generic tablets instead.
> They're all very similar and the evdev interface is capable of providing all
> the required information about them. It does that for all the tablets
> handled by hid-waltop, hid-uclogic and hid-kye drivers, at least.
>
> I've been attempting to implement this maybe twice in the past, but didn't
> have time or dedication to finish it.

Sorry, I confused libwacom classes with wcmUSB.c "protocols". I was talking
about the latter here. However, it probably applies to the former as well.

Sincerely,
Nick

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[Chris Bagwell]

On Tue, May 1, 2012 at 7:56 AM, Nikolai Kondrashov <spbnick@...> wrote:

On 05/01/2012 03:44 PM, Nikolai Kondrashov wrote:
> I would very much like to have a single class for generic tablets instead.
> They're all very similar and the evdev interface is capable of providing all
> the required information about them. It does that for all the tablets
> handled by hid-waltop, hid-uclogic and hid-kye drivers, at least.
>
> I've been attempting to implement this maybe twice in the past, but didn't
> have time or dedication to finish it.

Sorry, I confused libwacom classes with wcmUSB.c "protocols". I was talking
about the latter here. However, it probably applies to the former as well.

Here are my two cents on the topic.  If I was designing "Class" field in libwacom from scratch, I'm not sure if I'd bother because it at best an ackward summary of the individual [Features].  If I were asked to convert today's Classes to generic names, it would be something like this:

Tablet PC - ISDV4's and Serial
Monitor with Digitizer - Cintiq's and DTx's
Simple Tablet (no rings or modes and no tool serial #) - Bamboo's
Simple Tablet + Mouse (no rings or modes and no tool serial # even though 2 tools)- Graphires
Complex Tablet with rings and/or Mode settings to change button or ring meanings. - Intuos's

WCLASS_ISDV4 can be used as generic name for "Tablet PC's".  WCLASS_CINTIQ can be used as generic name for "Monitor with Digitizer" (see issue below though).  WCLASS_BAMBOO and WCLASS_GRAPHIRE are both "Simple Tablets" with the later having a MOUSE.  I'm not really sure why we have 3 versions of WCLASS_INTUOS but they are all the "Complex Tablets".

Technically, there are "Simple Monitor's" (the DTx's) and "Complex Monitor's" (the Cintiq's are as complex as Intuos).  So our current classes are unbalanced.

Anyways, we can either re-use those classes in a generic sense or add generic versions.  If adding generic versions, I'm not if sure if 5 or more are even needing.  In [Features] section, BuiltIn tells differences between Tablet PC/Monitor vs Tablets and NumStrips/Ring/etc tell Simple vs. Complex.

Chris

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[Favux ...]

Hi Chris,

That makes sense.  There is such a range of features within Wacom
model types.  I would amend Tablet PC to:
Tablet PC - USB or ISDV4's and Serial

I have to admit to some cognitive dissonance every time the kernel
announces my USB Tablet PC as a "Wacom ISDv4 Pen" with stylus and
eraser appended and "Wacom ISDv4 Finger" with touch appended.

Might resolution also be a worthwhile generic label?  We don't need to
consider stylus pressure levels because they are normalized.

Favux

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[Nikolai Kondrashov-2]

On 05/01/2012 03:56 PM, Nikolai Kondrashov wrote:

> On 05/01/2012 03:44 PM, Nikolai Kondrashov wrote:
>> I would very much like to have a single class for generic tablets instead.
>> They're all very similar and the evdev interface is capable of providing all
>> the required information about them. It does that for all the tablets
>> handled by hid-waltop, hid-uclogic and hid-kye drivers, at least.
>>
>> I've been attempting to implement this maybe twice in the past, but didn't
>> have time or dedication to finish it.
>
> Sorry, I confused libwacom classes with wcmUSB.c "protocols". I was talking
> about the latter here. However, it probably applies to the former as well.

I should really think and read the source before posting. I meant "models",
actually, sorry. I.e. usbBamboo, usbIntuos4 and others, and how they are
shoehorned on non-Wacom tablets. These should really be just a set of
features.

Further, I don't see the necessity to list all the models and their
descriptions in xf86-input-wacom, and then in libwacom, while the kernel
could provide all this and be the ultimate source of the information.

Sincerely,
Nick

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[Favux ...]

Hi,

Nick feels that there is no need currently to have several Waltop
tablet Classes using either the Wacom or new Waltop Classes.  He
thinks the differences between models aren't significant enough to
justify it.  In fact he would prefer a broader Class than Waltop in
case the decision is to transfer the KYE tablet's stylus to
xf86-input-wacom also.  And maybe eventually the UC-Logic tablets.

Right now I'm leaning toward the Class 'NonWacom' over 'Generic' or
'Other'.  But I'm open to suggestions.  :)

Favux

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[Peter Hutterer-3]

On Tue, May 01, 2012 at 06:57:59PM +0300, Nikolai Kondrashov wrote:

> On 05/01/2012 03:56 PM, Nikolai Kondrashov wrote:
> >On 05/01/2012 03:44 PM, Nikolai Kondrashov wrote:
> >>I would very much like to have a single class for generic tablets instead.
> >>They're all very similar and the evdev interface is capable of providing all
> >>the required information about them. It does that for all the tablets
> >>handled by hid-waltop, hid-uclogic and hid-kye drivers, at least.
> >>
> >>I've been attempting to implement this maybe twice in the past, but didn't
> >>have time or dedication to finish it.
> >
> >Sorry, I confused libwacom classes with wcmUSB.c "protocols". I was talking
> >about the latter here. However, it probably applies to the former as well.
>
> I should really think and read the source before posting. I meant "models",
> actually, sorry. I.e. usbBamboo, usbIntuos4 and others, and how they are
> shoehorned on non-Wacom tablets. These should really be just a set of
> features.
>
> Further, I don't see the necessity to list all the models and their
> descriptions in xf86-input-wacom, and then in libwacom, while the kernel
> could provide all this and be the ultimate source of the information.

the kernel gives you some information but it's by far not enough for
GUI configuration tools. For example, which button controls the ring modes
on the Intuos4? What's the physical layout of the buttons on the pad? Which
styli are compatible with a  Cintiq 21UX2? These are questions that
linuxwacom answers.

The kernel is good at enumerating, but bad at telling you more specific
information. Plus, it requires privileged access to the device files.

fwiw, I've had a short go at switching the X driver to use libwacom at some
time but didn't get far. libwacom wasn't ready then and the driver is too
entangled with model numbers etc. Anyone sufficiently optimistic can have a
go, but it won't be a small undertaking :)

Cheers,
  Peter

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[Peter Hutterer-3]

On Tue, May 01, 2012 at 06:31:07PM -0500, Favux ... wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Nick feels that there is no need currently to have several Waltop
> tablet Classes using either the Wacom or new Waltop Classes.  He
> thinks the differences between models aren't significant enough to
> justify it.  In fact he would prefer a broader Class than Waltop in
> case the decision is to transfer the KYE tablet's stylus to
> xf86-input-wacom also.  And maybe eventually the UC-Logic tablets.
>
> Right now I'm leaning toward the Class 'NonWacom' over 'Generic' or
> 'Other'.  But I'm open to suggestions.  :)

I think there is a bit of confusion as to _what_ the libwacom class actually
means: it provides a rough categorization of the tablet the user has.
Tablets inside a class have similar features, and possible examples for
future usage could include things like displaying a Intuos3-specific icon vs
an Intuos4-specific icon. Right now, GNOME differs between built-in, Cintiq
and other (which looks like an I3) for icon display.

So I think for non-wacom tablets there is room for a class per model-line to
allow for similar features. I don't really want a built-in Waltop mashed
into a generic class with a standalone USB Waltop model.

Cheer,
  Peter

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