We have lost the desktop war. The reason? Windows 7.

[RedShift]

This thread will probably erupt in a massive flamewar, yet I decided to post my
story anyway. I am talking about the desktop experience in general, not the
technical details behind it. Keep that in mind.


I've been working these past few months with KDE 4.3 and it feels very sluggish
and incomplete. I can't enable the desktop effects because that makes things
even slower. I'm doing this on a fairly decent setup, an AMD Sempron 2 Ghz with
an nVidia FX5500. My laptop suffers from this sluggishness as well. On top of
that, lots of things annoy me in KDE 4.3, see the end of this post for my top
annoyances. Yesterday I had to reboot to my Windows XP installation on this
computer and I was shocked when I arrived in XP's userland. Everything was
ridiculously fast. When returning to my linux desktop everything felt even more
sluggish. That's when I decided to go back to KDE 3.5. I restored my old KDE 3.5
profile, installed the necessary packages and logged back in. WOOOOOF,
everything is fast again. Opening new windows is instantaneous, hell even
bringing up context menus is faster. If Linux is that much better, why does the
current Linux desktop (KDE 4.3) still suck compared to an operating system
that's 8 years old?

Last week I also had the chance to check out Windows 7, and I was stumped. I was
genuinly impressed by Windows 7's GUI. It feels fast, works fluently, it has
nice effects which just work and work FAST. When browsing around it felt like a
very solid desktop environment. I am jealous. I really am. The thought of
using Windows 7 in favor of KDE 4.3 has occured to me much more than I like. And
it's little things like dragging the windows to the top of the screen makes them
maximized, dragging them to the left makes the take exactly 50% of the screen.
How many times have you been manually resizing windows to fit next to each
other? I have, too many times. These are things that really improve your
productivity.


So when should we have started working at a better desktop environment for
Linux?

When Mac OS X came out. When was that again? 2001. Yes, it really was that long
ago. It already had awesome desktop effects that just work on (compared to these
days) VERY modest hardware. And it worked fast as well. It was and still is a
solid desktop environment. From that point on the Linux community should have
recognized the threat Mac OS X was for the desktop environment. Unfortunately
nobody did and we went on creating a big mess, fighting over implementations and
technical details instead of attempting to create a solid desktop environment.

Yet we did have a second chance in 2007. Microsoft obviously screwed up with
Windows Vista, we had the chance to win back alot of terrain here until the
release of Windows 7. So what did we come up with? KDE 4. Yes, a big
dissapointment. We still don't have something that's comparable.


So basically, where are we at?
KDE 3.5 is Windows XP
KDE 4.3 is Windows Vista
??? is Windows 7


When are we getting to the Windows 7 stage?

Microsoft didn't do a big advertising campaign for the launch of Windows 7,
nevertheless they delivered a big slap in the face to the Linux desktop
environments. The numbers speak for themselves, Windows 7 has already sold more
copies in its first week than Windows Vista did in its first month. And with
good riddance, Windows 7 really is better than Windows Vista. Microsoft
recognized the problems with Windows Vista and dealt with them. And dealt with
them swiftly if you ask me, doing it in less then 3 years.


Conclusion

We are losing ground. We are losing it fast. Our competitors recognize what the
user wants and delivered.

If we are comparing enterprise desktops, there's no going around Red Hat. The
current Red Hat desktop (5.4) ships with KDE 3.5, while its succesor RHEL 6 will
be, if looking what Fedora brings now, shipped with KDE 4.2 or 4.3. That means
KDE 4.2/4.3 will be the main desktop for enterprises for at least the next 3
years. A disgrace if you ask me. Users will be comparing desktop environments
and they will find Windows 7 or Mac OS X to be better. After the damage RHEL 6
will have done to the reputation of the Linux desktop, it will take again as
many years to rectify the damage done. Granted if we will have a solid desktop
environment comparable to Windows 7 by the time RHEL 7 gets released. Which I
can't help but doubt.



My top KDE 4.3 annoyances:
* Slooooowwww. Logging in takes a multifold of times it did under KDE 3.5,
repainting windows takes up a lot of time
* The battery status applet is buggy, it only shows the actual percentage after
you've hovered it with the mouse, even when you've set it to always display. The
scale it uses is also difficult to interpret. These bugs have been reported a
long time ago and are still not fixed.
* The run dialog is useless. The reason is the history function. It can't
display a full history when you start typing, you have to type alot more. Having
a pull down menu and using the arrow keys to select the entry you want is alot
faster. Even Microsoft knows they shouldn't touch that dialog, it still works
like a charm in windows 7.
* Double clicking the system icon in the titlebar doesn't always work to close
an application (the system icon is the left-most icon in the titlebar). This bug
has also been reported a long time ago and still not fixed.
* I get a full 10 minutes of extra runtime on my laptop when I switched back to
3.5
* Power management is buggy in KDE 4.3 and sometimes powerdevil just loses
its settings
* Some settings KDE 3.5 used to have aren't there anymore in KDE 4.3.
* Where's my "home" icon!!!??? :-(

[Vesa Kaihlavirta-2]

> So basically, where are we at?
> KDE 3.5 is Windows XP
> KDE 4.3 is Windows Vista
> ??? is Windows 7

awesome is Windows 1

--vk

[Allan McRae-3]

RedShift wrote:
> This thread will probably erupt in a massive flamewar, yet I decided
> to post my
> story anyway. I am talking about the desktop experience in general,
> not the
> technical details behind it. Keep that in mind.

So you posted in both the forums and here...

Seriously, get a blog.

Allan

[RedShift]

Allan McRae wrote:

> RedShift wrote:
>> This thread will probably erupt in a massive flamewar, yet I decided
>> to post my
>> story anyway. I am talking about the desktop experience in general,
>> not the
>> technical details behind it. Keep that in mind.
>
> So you posted in both the forums and here...
>
> Seriously, get a blog.
>

Yes I did, because I feel the more technical people roam the mailinglists and the more casual user the forums. I want to hear all the sides.


Glenn

[Jozsef-4]

On 26 Oct 2009 at 11:57, RedShift wrote:

> This thread will probably erupt in a massive flamewar, yet I decided to post my
> story anyway. I am talking about the desktop experience in general, not the
> technical details behind it. Keep that in mind.
>
>
> I've been working these past few months with KDE 4.3 and it feels very sluggish
> and incomplete. I can't enable the desktop effects because that makes things
> even slower. I'm doing this on a fairly decent setup, an AMD Sempron 2 Ghz with
> an nVidia FX5500. My laptop suffers from this sluggishness as well. On top of
> that, lots of things annoy me in KDE 4.3, see the end of this post for my top
> annoyances. Yesterday I had to reboot to my Windows XP installation on this
> computer and I was shocked when I arrived in XP's userland. Everything was
> ridiculously fast. When returning to my linux desktop everything felt even more
> sluggish. That's when I decided to go back to KDE 3.5. I restored my old KDE 3.5
> profile, installed the necessary packages and logged back in. WOOOOOF,
> everything is fast again. Opening new windows is instantaneous, hell even
> bringing up context menus is faster. If Linux is that much better, why does the
> current Linux desktop (KDE 4.3) still suck compared to an operating system
> that's 8 years old?
>
> Last week I also had the chance to check out Windows 7, and I was stumped. I was
> genuinly impressed by Windows 7's GUI. It feels fast, works fluently, it has
> nice effects which just work and work FAST. When browsing around it felt like a
> very solid desktop environment. I am jealous. I really am. The thought of
> using Windows 7 in favor of KDE 4.3 has occured to me much more than I like. And
> it's little things like dragging the windows to the top of the screen makes them
> maximized, dragging them to the left makes the take exactly 50% of the screen.
> How many times have you been manually resizing windows to fit next to each
> other? I have, too many times. These are things that really improve your
> productivity.
>
>
> So when should we have started working at a better desktop environment for
> Linux?
>
> When Mac OS X came out. When was that again? 2001. Yes, it really was that long
> ago. It already had awesome desktop effects that just work on (compared to these
> days) VERY modest hardware. And it worked fast as well. It was and still is a
> solid desktop environment. From that point on the Linux community should have
> recognized the threat Mac OS X was for the desktop environment. Unfortunately
> nobody did and we went on creating a big mess, fighting over implementations and
> technical details instead of attempting to create a solid desktop environment.
>
> Yet we did have a second chance in 2007. Microsoft obviously screwed up with
> Windows Vista, we had the chance to win back alot of terrain here until the
> release of Windows 7. So what did we come up with? KDE 4. Yes, a big
> dissapointment. We still don't have something that's comparable.
>
>
> So basically, where are we at?
> KDE 3.5 is Windows XP
> KDE 4.3 is Windows Vista
> ??? is Windows 7
>
>
> When are we getting to the Windows 7 stage?
>
> Microsoft didn't do a big advertising campaign for the launch of Windows 7,
> nevertheless they delivered a big slap in the face to the Linux desktop
> environments. The numbers speak for themselves, Windows 7 has already sold more
> copies in its first week than Windows Vista did in its first month. And with
> good riddance, Windows 7 really is better than Windows Vista. Microsoft
> recognized the problems with Windows Vista and dealt with them. And dealt with
> them swiftly if you ask me, doing it in less then 3 years.
>
>
> Conclusion
>
> We are losing ground. We are losing it fast. Our competitors recognize what the
> user wants and delivered.
>
> If we are comparing enterprise desktops, there's no going around Red Hat. The
> current Red Hat desktop (5.4) ships with KDE 3.5, while its succesor RHEL 6 will
> be, if looking what Fedora brings now, shipped with KDE 4.2 or 4.3. That means
> KDE 4.2/4.3 will be the main desktop for enterprises for at least the next 3
> years. A disgrace if you ask me. Users will be comparing desktop environments
> and they will find Windows 7 or Mac OS X to be better. After the damage RHEL 6
> will have done to the reputation of the Linux desktop, it will take again as
> many years to rectify the damage done. Granted if we will have a solid desktop
> environment comparable to Windows 7 by the time RHEL 7 gets released. Which I
> can't help but doubt.
>
>
>
> My top KDE 4.3 annoyances:
> * Slooooowwww. Logging in takes a multifold of times it did under KDE 3.5,
> repainting windows takes up a lot of time
> * The battery status applet is buggy, it only shows the actual percentage after
> you've hovered it with the mouse, even when you've set it to always display. The
> scale it uses is also difficult to interpret. These bugs have been reported a
> long time ago and are still not fixed.
> * The run dialog is useless. The reason is the history function. It can't
> display a full history when you start typing, you have to type alot more. Having
> a pull down menu and using the arrow keys to select the entry you want is alot
> faster. Even Microsoft knows they shouldn't touch that dialog, it still works
> like a charm in windows 7.
> * Double clicking the system icon in the titlebar doesn't always work to close
> an application (the system icon is the left-most icon in the titlebar). This bug
> has also been reported a long time ago and still not fixed.
> * I get a full 10 minutes of extra runtime on my laptop when I switched back to
> 3.5
> * Power management is buggy in KDE 4.3 and sometimes powerdevil just loses
> its settings
> * Some settings KDE 3.5 used to have aren't there anymore in KDE 4.3.
> * Where's my "home" icon!!!??? :-(

I guess you are right about everything. As a desktop Windows is
better than KDE. If desktop is all that is matter for you then you
should go for it :)

By the way Alt+F2 is something I like in KDE4.3.2 for example. What
about you? Is there anything you like in KDE4.3?

I think it's always good to see things you like and to try to be
positive even if KDE4.3 sucks.

Thanks for the message.

--
O< ascii ribbon campaign - stop html mail - www.asciiribbon.org

[RedShift]

Jozsef wrote:

> I guess you are right about everything. As a desktop Windows is
> better than KDE. If desktop is all that is matter for you then you
> should go for it :)
>
> By the way Alt+F2 is something I like in KDE4.3.2 for example. What
> about you? Is there anything you like in KDE4.3?
>
> I think it's always good to see things you like and to try to be
> positive even if KDE4.3 sucks.
>

Of course there are things I like about KDE 4.3. A few examples:

* The desktop effects are integrated into the window manager. No more messing around with compiz
* When those effects are enabled, you do have cool things like a window preview when hovering the taskbar. This is what I miss most
* You can fetch external themes, backgrounds, color schemes, etc... directly from within the applets that are responsible for those settings. No more searching around the web for nice themes, no more installing in obscure locations, it's now all done for you
* I really like the concept plasma brings to the desktop
* The KDE team has provided measures to "turn back the clock" (classic start menu, classic desktop)
* Lots of KDE software runs under windows. This brings kate, my favorite editor, to the windows desktop
* KDE still has better abstraction of file locations than windows or gnome



However, for me, the negatives unfortunatly outweigh the positives. For the most part, because they don't really enhance my productivity.


Glenn

[Phillip Smith-7]

2009/10/26 RedShift <redshift@...>

> Allan McRae wrote:
>
>> So you posted in both the forums and here...
>>
>> Seriously, get a blog.
>>
>>
> Yes I did, because I feel the more technical people roam the mailinglists
> and the more casual user the forums. I want to hear all the sides.
>
>

"I am talking about the desktop experience in general, not the technical
details behind it. Keep that in mind."

If you're not talking technical details, why post to the list to get the
thoughts of the "technical" people? I agree with Allan, this is definitely
more suitable for a blog.

[Stefan Erik Wilkens]

2009/10/26 RedShift <redshift@...>:

> This thread will probably erupt in a massive flamewar, yet I decided to post
> my
> story anyway. I am talking about the desktop experience in general, not the
> technical details behind it. Keep that in mind.
>
>
> I've been working these past few months with KDE 4.3 and it feels very
> sluggish
> and incomplete. I can't enable the desktop effects because that makes things
> even slower. I'm doing this on a fairly decent setup, an AMD Sempron 2 Ghz
> with
> an nVidia FX5500. My laptop suffers from this sluggishness as well. On top
> of
> that, lots of things annoy me in KDE 4.3, see the end of this post for my
> top
> annoyances. Yesterday I had to reboot to my Windows XP installation on this
> computer and I was shocked when I arrived in XP's userland. Everything was
> ridiculously fast. When returning to my linux desktop everything felt even
> more
> sluggish. That's when I decided to go back to KDE 3.5. I restored my old KDE
> 3.5
> profile, installed the necessary packages and logged back in. WOOOOOF,
> everything is fast again. Opening new windows is instantaneous, hell even
> bringing up context menus is faster. If Linux is that much better, why does
> the
> current Linux desktop (KDE 4.3) still suck compared to an operating system
> that's 8 years old?
>
> Last week I also had the chance to check out Windows 7, and I was stumped. I
> was
> genuinly impressed by Windows 7's GUI. It feels fast, works fluently, it has
> nice effects which just work and work FAST. When browsing around it felt
> like a
> very solid desktop environment. I am jealous. I really am. The thought of
> using Windows 7 in favor of KDE 4.3 has occured to me much more than I like.
> And
> it's little things like dragging the windows to the top of the screen makes
> them
> maximized, dragging them to the left makes the take exactly 50% of the
> screen.
> How many times have you been manually resizing windows to fit next to each
> other? I have, too many times. These are things that really improve your
> productivity.
>
>
> So when should we have started working at a better desktop environment for
> Linux?
>
> When Mac OS X came out. When was that again? 2001. Yes, it really was that
> long
> ago. It already had awesome desktop effects that just work on (compared to
> these
> days) VERY modest hardware. And it worked fast as well. It was and still is
> a
> solid desktop environment. From that point on the Linux community should
> have
> recognized the threat Mac OS X was for the desktop environment.
> Unfortunately
> nobody did and we went on creating a big mess, fighting over implementations
> and
> technical details instead of attempting to create a solid desktop
> environment.
>
> Yet we did have a second chance in 2007. Microsoft obviously screwed up with
> Windows Vista, we had the chance to win back alot of terrain here until the
> release of Windows 7. So what did we come up with? KDE 4. Yes, a big
> dissapointment. We still don't have something that's comparable.
>
>
> So basically, where are we at?
> KDE 3.5 is Windows XP
> KDE 4.3 is Windows Vista
> ??? is Windows 7
>
>
> When are we getting to the Windows 7 stage?
>
> Microsoft didn't do a big advertising campaign for the launch of Windows 7,
> nevertheless they delivered a big slap in the face to the Linux desktop
> environments. The numbers speak for themselves, Windows 7 has already sold
> more
> copies in its first week than Windows Vista did in its first month. And with
> good riddance, Windows 7 really is better than Windows Vista. Microsoft
> recognized the problems with Windows Vista and dealt with them. And dealt
> with
> them swiftly if you ask me, doing it in less then 3 years.
>
>
> Conclusion
>
> We are losing ground. We are losing it fast. Our competitors recognize what
> the
> user wants and delivered.
>
> If we are comparing enterprise desktops, there's no going around Red Hat.
> The
> current Red Hat desktop (5.4) ships with KDE 3.5, while its succesor RHEL 6
> will
> be, if looking what Fedora brings now, shipped with KDE 4.2 or 4.3. That
> means
> KDE 4.2/4.3 will be the main desktop for enterprises for at least the next 3
> years. A disgrace if you ask me. Users will be comparing desktop
> environments
> and they will find Windows 7 or Mac OS X to be better. After the damage RHEL
> 6
> will have done to the reputation of the Linux desktop, it will take again as
> many years to rectify the damage done. Granted if we will have a solid
> desktop
> environment comparable to Windows 7 by the time RHEL 7 gets released. Which
> I
> can't help but doubt.
>
>
>
> My top KDE 4.3 annoyances:
> * Slooooowwww. Logging in takes a multifold of times it did under KDE 3.5,
> repainting windows takes up a lot of time
> * The battery status applet is buggy, it only shows the actual percentage
> after
> you've hovered it with the mouse, even when you've set it to always display.
> The
> scale it uses is also difficult to interpret. These bugs have been reported
> a
> long time ago and are still not fixed.
> * The run dialog is useless. The reason is the history function. It can't
> display a full history when you start typing, you have to type alot more.
> Having
> a pull down menu and using the arrow keys to select the entry you want is
> alot
> faster. Even Microsoft knows they shouldn't touch that dialog, it still
> works
> like a charm in windows 7.
> * Double clicking the system icon in the titlebar doesn't always work to
> close
> an application (the system icon is the left-most icon in the titlebar). This
> bug
> has also been reported a long time ago and still not fixed.
> * I get a full 10 minutes of extra runtime on my laptop when I switched back
> to
> 3.5
> * Power management is buggy in KDE 4.3 and sometimes powerdevil just loses
> its settings
> * Some settings KDE 3.5 used to have aren't there anymore in KDE 4.3.
> * Where's my "home" icon!!!??? :-(
>

A general rule in life is that nothing is ever free. Perhaps a bold
remark to use in an open-source mailing list, but cost doesn't have to
be defined by money.

We simply pay for using Linux by coping with slightly lower
performance in some (certainly not all) areas of the desktop
experience, furthermore by dealing with a lack of certain features and
compatabillity with the rest of the world (office and other indistry
standard applications not being available to us, the open source
counterparts not being up to par with the standard due to
closed-source or licencing).

Though we try to stay on par, I think determining that we have lost
implies that we must outperform other operating systems in every way
to be considered a real alternative.

KDE 4.x is in active developement, GNOME is renewing the desktop
experience (albeit slowly). Things are moving along in the open source
desktop world. Thankfully, linux != just desktop

> However, for me, the negatives unfortunatly outweigh the positives. For the most part, because they don't really enhance my productivity

Behind != different?

--
msn: stefan_wilkens@...
e-mail: stefanwilkens@...
blog: http://www.stefanwilkens.eu/
adres: Lipperkerkstraat 14 7511 DA Enschede

[Alessandro Doro]

On Mon, Oct 26, 2009 at 03:19:06PM +0400, Jozsef wrote:
> By the way Alt+F2 is something I like in KDE4.3.2 for example.

I read Ctrl+Alt+F2 for a moment. Sorry.

[Rafa Grimán-2]

Hi :)


On Monday 26 October 2009 11:57:59 RedShift wrote:
> This thread will probably erupt in a massive flamewar, yet I decided to
>  post my story anyway. I am talking about the desktop experience in
>  general, not the technical details behind it. Keep that in mind.


No intention to make this a real flame war, just got some
questions/advice/info 0:)


> I've been working these past few months with KDE 4.3 and it feels very
>  sluggish and incomplete. I can't enable the desktop effects because that
>  makes things even slower. I'm doing this on a fairly decent setup, an AMD
>  Sempron 2 Ghz with an nVidia FX5500.


I've got a Dell Latitude D610 with an Intel VGA:

$ lspci | grep -i vga
00:02.0 VGA compatible controller: Intel Corporation Mobile 915GM/GMS/910GML
Express Graphics Controller (rev 03)

1 GB RAM

$ cat /proc/cpuinfo
processor       : 0
vendor_id       : GenuineIntel
cpu family      : 6
model           : 13
model name      : Intel(R) Pentium(R) M processor 1.86GHz
stepping        : 8
cpu MHz         : 1867.000
cache size      : 2048 KB
fdiv_bug        : no
hlt_bug         : no
f00f_bug        : no
coma_bug        : no
fpu             : yes
fpu_exception   : yes
cpuid level     : 2
wp              : yes
flags           : fpu vme de pse tsc msr pae mce cx8 apic sep mtrr pge mca
cmov clflush dts acpi mmx fxsr sse sse2 ss tm pbe nx up bts est tm2
bogomips        : 3726.83
clflush size    : 64
power management:


Relevant software:
        kernel26 2.6.31.5-1
        xorg-server 1.6.3.901-1
        intel-dri 7.5.1-2
        xf86-video-intel 2.8.1-1
        KDE* 4.3.2-4

Using KMS for my Intel VGA.

I've got to say I've got a very snappy KDE running. Doesn't "feel" slow,
response is immediate, ...


¿Could you be having some hardware issues? Maybe not because KDE 3.5 and XP
seem to run fine on your system.

BTW, not running ANY effects because they get on my nerves. Don't find them
productive (I don't see how a snowing background or blowing up windows can
make you more productive).


BTW, I've also got an MSI Wind with 2 GB RAM, Intel VGA and Atom (dual core)
and same version software with the same results: sanppy, fast response, ...

Can't really compare to MS-Windows since I don't use it/them. But I can
compare to KDE 3.5 (since I used it before on the same hw) and 4.3 is not
slower than 3.5 IMHO on the same hardware.

@ home I've got a dual-core AMD + 8 GB RAM + ATI with 512 MB dedicated RAM. In
this case I'm _NOT_ using ATI's drivers, I'm using the radeonhd drivers and
everything seems to work fine: fast response, ... Not slow at all. On this
system I've got a 2nd partition with openSUSE + ATI drivers + KDE 3.5 and TBH,
I see no better performance with KDE 3.5.

My guess is that there's something wrongly configured or installed in your KDE
4 installation. Check this:
        - deactivate nepomuk and Akonadi
        - delete /tmp/k* /var/tmp/k*
        - delete your .kde4 and .kde and .local dirs (you can also choose
          creating a new account and see if it's "faster")

[...]


> So when should we have started working at a better desktop environment for
> Linux?


I think the KDE team already is, but of course, that's MHO ;)

[...]


> So basically, where are we at?
> KDE 3.5 is Windows XP
> KDE 4.3 is Windows Vista
> ??? is Windows 7
>
>
> When are we getting to the Windows 7 stage?


KDE 4.5? ;)


> Microsoft didn't do a big advertising campaign for the launch of Windows 7,
> nevertheless they delivered a big slap in the face to the Linux desktop
> environments. The numbers speak for themselves, Windows 7 has already sold
>  more copies in its first week than Windows Vista did in its first month.
>  And with good riddance, Windows 7 really is better than Windows Vista.
>  Microsoft recognized the problems with Windows Vista and dealt with them.
>  And dealt with them swiftly if you ask me, doing it in less then 3 years.


MS _DOES_ have some help from IHVs ;) Those IHVs preinstall Windows on their
laptops, netbooks, ... + MS also has some very deep pockets (filled with $) to
"convince" those IHVs to preinstall MS-Windows. Not only that, their deep
pockets help them "talk" with polititians (at least here in Spain that helps a
lot ;)

If we (KDE Community) had those deep pockets filled to the brim with $ just as
MS does:
        - we could pay more full time developers
        - we could pay more full time developers to solely profile
          and debug KDE
        - "convince" IHVs to preinstall KDE
        - we could "speak" with polititians (at least here in Spain)
        - ...

I'm not saying money = hapiness, but it does help a bit sometimes ;)

Resources on one side and the other are not the same. MS has way more full
time developers than KDE has.

> Conclusion
>
> We are losing ground. We are losing it fast. Our competitors recognize what
>  the user wants and delivered.


This reminds me of a time (long ago) when MS "prooved" that Win2k was faster
serving files that Linux+Samba. While the FLOSS Community was shouting and
arguing whether the benchmark was well done, Mr. Torvalds said that was good
news since now we would know where we have to apply fixes and what fixes would
have to be applied. I think this situation is similar.

> If we are comparing enterprise desktops, there's no going around Red Hat.
>  The current Red Hat desktop (5.4) ships with KDE 3.5, while its succesor
>  RHEL 6 will be, if looking what Fedora brings now, shipped with KDE 4.2 or
>  4.3. That means KDE 4.2/4.3 will be the main desktop for enterprises for
>  at least the next 3 years. A disgrace if you ask me. Users will be
>  comparing desktop environments and they will find Windows 7 or Mac OS X to
>  be better. After the damage RHEL 6 will have done to the reputation of the
>  Linux desktop, it will take again as many years to rectify the damage
>  done. Granted if we will have a solid desktop environment comparable to
>  Windows 7 by the time RHEL 7 gets released. Which I can't help but doubt.
>
>
>
> My top KDE 4.3 annoyances:
> * Slooooowwww. Logging in takes a multifold of times it did under KDE 3.5,
> repainting windows takes up a lot of time

Check hardware, drivers, configs, ... What I said previously.


> * The battery status applet is buggy, it only shows the actual percentage
>  after you've hovered it with the mouse, even when you've set it to always
>  display. The scale it uses is also difficult to interpret. These bugs have
>  been reported a long time ago and are still not fixed.


I have no such problems on my MSI Wind and my Dell. BTW I also installed
ArchLinux + KDE 4.3 on an Acer ONE for a friend and she has no such problems
either.


> * The run dialog is useless. The reason is the history function. It can't
> display a full history when you start typing, you have to type alot more.
>  Having a pull down menu and using the arrow keys to select the entry you
>  want is alot faster. Even Microsoft knows they shouldn't touch that
>  dialog, it still works like a charm in windows 7.


Can't reproduce that here. History displays and changes as I type, no lag.
BTW, I'm not the fastest typer, but I use more than 2 fingers ;)


> * Double clicking the system icon in the titlebar doesn't always work to
>  close an application (the system icon is the left-most icon in the
>  titlebar). This bug has also been reported a long time ago and still not
>  fixed.


Never tried that, TBH, always use the "X" on the far right.


> * I get a full 10 minutes of extra runtime on my laptop when I switched
>  back to 3.5


Not here.


> * Power management is buggy in KDE 4.3 and sometimes powerdevil just loses
> its settings


Haven't lost any settings on KDE 4.x ... and I'm using XFS   =:0


> * Some settings KDE 3.5 used to have aren't there anymore in KDE 4.3.


Somethings haven't been ported to KDE 4.x yet. Maybe for KDE 4.4 or 4.5.


> * Where's my "home" icon!!!??? :-(


¿What for? You've got "Konqueror Profiles" widget ;)


HTH

   Rafa

--
"We cannot treat computers as Humans. Computers need love."

rgriman@...
rgriman@...

Happily using KDE 4.3.1 :)

[RedShift]

Stefan Erik Wilkens wrote:

> A general rule in life is that nothing is ever free. Perhaps a bold
> remark to use in an open-source mailing list, but cost doesn't have to
> be defined by money.
>
> We simply pay for using Linux by coping with slightly lower
> performance in some (certainly not all) areas of the desktop
> experience, furthermore by dealing with a lack of certain features and
> compatabillity with the rest of the world (office and other indistry
> standard applications not being available to us, the open source
> counterparts not being up to par with the standard due to
> closed-source or licencing).
>

I haven't thought about the money aspect and yes this world does revolve around "you get what you pay for". Though I see this in a different light, just because we chose to be Free, we have to settle for less?

> Though we try to stay on par, I think determining that we have lost
> implies that we must outperform other operating systems in every way
> to be considered a real alternative.
>

This point has come up in the forums as well. Don't we want linux/Free software to succeed in all facets of computing? Certainly because the desktop is a big chunk.

> KDE 4.x is in active developement, GNOME is renewing the desktop
> experience (albeit slowly). Things are moving along in the open source
> desktop world. Thankfully, linux != just desktop
>

Yes and KDE 4 has made huge improvements over the releases. But my peers do feel similar and the most common response is, how can the community be so unresponsible for doing flawed releases?


>> However, for me, the negatives unfortunatly outweigh the positives. For the most part, because they don't really enhance my productivity
>
> Behind != different?
>


I don't consider being "behind" as being "different"


Glenn

[Raven_Oscar UnKnown]

I have to admit that I am partly agree with you. MS screwed up with Vista
and all its competitors had a chance to gain part of its market. I speak
about both Linux and MacOS. But none of them used it. So basically situation
is the same as it was before Vista. In fact we are not loosing ground
because we never had it. Slightly over 1% of desktop market makes me think
that Linux is still OS for the geeks.
I also have to admit that there are no tech innovations in windows 7 which
could encourage me to go back to MS technology. At the same time I really
see a lot of them in linux.

[RedShift]

Rafa Griman wrote:

(note, lots of things cut)

>
>> I've been working these past few months with KDE 4.3 and it feels very
>>  sluggish and incomplete. I can't enable the desktop effects because that
>>  makes things even slower. I'm doing this on a fairly decent setup, an AMD
>>  Sempron 2 Ghz with an nVidia FX5500.
>
>
> I've got a Dell Latitude D610 with an Intel VGA:
>
> $ lspci | grep -i vga
> 00:02.0 VGA compatible controller: Intel Corporation Mobile 915GM/GMS/910GML
> Express Graphics Controller (rev 03)
>
> 1 GB RAM
>
> $ cat /proc/cpuinfo
> model name      : Intel(R) Pentium(R) M processor 1.86GHz
> Using KMS for my Intel VGA.
>
> I've got to say I've got a very snappy KDE running. Doesn't "feel" slow,
> response is immediate, ...
>

I have about the same setup running here (Intel 915 VGA and a Pentium M processor), yet it distinctively feels slow compared to for example Windows XP or KDE 3.5.

> My guess is that there's something wrongly configured or installed in your KDE
> 4 installation. Check this:
> - deactivate nepomuk and Akonadi
> - delete /tmp/k* /var/tmp/k*
> - delete your .kde4 and .kde and .local dirs (you can also choose
>  creating a new account and see if it's "faster")
>

Already did those. Doesn't help.

>
>> So basically, where are we at?
>> KDE 3.5 is Windows XP
>> KDE 4.3 is Windows Vista
>> ??? is Windows 7
>>
>>
>> When are we getting to the Windows 7 stage?
>
>
> KDE 4.5? ;)
>

I hope so. Maybe I should have waited with my response and give KDE 4 project more time to mature, but there's also chance I would be writing this same e-mail two years in the future.

>
>> Microsoft didn't do a big advertising campaign for the launch of Windows 7,
>> nevertheless they delivered a big slap in the face to the Linux desktop
>> environments. The numbers speak for themselves, Windows 7 has already sold
>>  more copies in its first week than Windows Vista did in its first month.
>>  And with good riddance, Windows 7 really is better than Windows Vista.
>>  Microsoft recognized the problems with Windows Vista and dealt with them.
>>  And dealt with them swiftly if you ask me, doing it in less then 3 years.
>
>
> MS _DOES_ have some help from IHVs ;) Those IHVs preinstall Windows on their
> laptops, netbooks, ... + MS also has some very deep pockets (filled with $) to
> "convince" those IHVs to preinstall MS-Windows. Not only that, their deep
> pockets help them "talk" with polititians (at least here in Spain that helps a
> lot ;)
>

That is true, but even that's not unlimited. Look at windows vista. Most OEMs still ship XP upgrades with business desktops. Though that'll rapidly diminish now that 7 is out.

>> Conclusion
>>
>> We are losing ground. We are losing it fast. Our competitors recognize what
>>  the user wants and delivered.
>
>
> This reminds me of a time (long ago) when MS "prooved" that Win2k was faster
> serving files that Linux+Samba. While the FLOSS Community was shouting and
> arguing whether the benchmark was well done, Mr. Torvalds said that was good
> news since now we would know where we have to apply fixes and what fixes would
> have to be applied. I think this situation is similar.
>

Than it is a good thing that I spoke up. I am worried about the future of Linux.


>
>> * Double clicking the system icon in the titlebar doesn't always work to
>>  close an application (the system icon is the left-most icon in the
>>  titlebar). This bug has also been reported a long time ago and still not
>>  fixed.
>
>
> Never tried that, TBH, always use the "X" on the far right.
>

Partially agreed, however, my reasoning here is "don't provide features that don't work".

>
>> * I get a full 10 minutes of extra runtime on my laptop when I switched
>>  back to 3.5
>
>
> Not here.
>

On the forums the response was, "well duh". That being due to the fact that KDE 4 makes more intensive use of the graphics card, which I can understand. But I would have expected by optimizing hardware usage, the system would be faster as well, which is not the case.


Glenn

[Jozsef-4]

On 26 Oct 2009 at 12:46, Rafa Griman wrote:


> My guess is that there's something wrongly configured or installed in your KDE
> 4 installation. Check this:
> - deactivate nepomuk and Akonadi
> - delete /tmp/k* /var/tmp/k*
> - delete your .kde4 and .kde and .local dirs (you can also choose
>  creating a new account and see if it's "faster")


What's the way of deactivating nepomuk and Akonadi?


--
O< ascii ribbon campaign - stop html mail - www.asciiribbon.org

[Raven_Oscar UnKnown]

What's the way of deactivating nepomuk and Akonadi?

It can be done via "system settings" > advanced tab.

>
>

[Arvid Picciani]

RedShift wrote:

> Conclusion
>
> We are losing ground. We are losing it fast. Our competitors recognize
> what the
> user wants and delivered.

I can't remember fighting for that ground, and I'd be totally happy if
the people who do would just go away.


--
Arvid
Asgaard Technologies

[b4283]

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[Heiko Baums-2]

Am Mon, 26 Oct 2009 11:57:59 +0100
schrieb RedShift <redshift@...>:

> This thread will probably erupt in a massive flamewar, yet I decided
> to post my story anyway. I am talking about the desktop experience in
> general, not the technical details behind it. Keep that in mind.
>
> ...
>
> So when should we have started working at a better desktop
> environment for Linux?
>
> ...
>
> So basically, where are we at?
> KDE 3.5 is Windows XP
> KDE 4.3 is Windows Vista
> ??? is Windows 7
>
>
> When are we getting to the Windows 7 stage?
>
> ...

Why do you stick with KDE? Why don't you try Xfce or LXDE?

KDE 1 was quite nice but pretty slow and buggy. Until KDE 3.5 it was
made much more stable and faster so that KDE 3.5 was really usable.
With KDE 4 they went back to KDE 1 regarding stability and speed but
with far too much "eyecandy".

KDE 4 was the reason for me for switching to Xfce. It runs smoothly and
in my opinion fast and has only a few minor issues in my experience.
LXDE seems to be fast and stable, too. For me there's only one applet
missing, don't know which one. I can't decide which one I like
more. Currently I stick with Xfce.

But KDE isn't an option for me anymore.

Since I already used GTK/Gnome apps in KDE, I'm now using Qt/KDE apps in
Xfce.

Heiko

[Ray Kohler-3]

On Mon, Oct 26, 2009 at 6:57 AM, RedShift <redshift@...> wrote:

> This thread will probably erupt in a massive flamewar, yet I decided to post
> my
> story anyway. I am talking about the desktop experience in general, not the
> technical details behind it. Keep that in mind.
>
>
> I've been working these past few months with KDE 4.3 and it feels very
> sluggish
> and incomplete. I can't enable the desktop effects because that makes things
> even slower. I'm doing this on a fairly decent setup, an AMD Sempron 2 Ghz
> with
> an nVidia FX5500. My laptop suffers from this sluggishness as well. On top
> of
> that, lots of things annoy me in KDE 4.3, see the end of this post for my
> top
> annoyances. Yesterday I had to reboot to my Windows XP installation on this
> computer and I was shocked when I arrived in XP's userland. Everything was
> ridiculously fast. When returning to my linux desktop everything felt even
> more
> sluggish. That's when I decided to go back to KDE 3.5. I restored my old KDE
> 3.5
> profile, installed the necessary packages and logged back in. WOOOOOF,
> everything is fast again. Opening new windows is instantaneous, hell even
> bringing up context menus is faster. If Linux is that much better, why does
> the
> current Linux desktop (KDE 4.3) still suck compared to an operating system
> that's 8 years old?

The way that last sentence is phrased reveals a lot. If you think
"Linux Desktop" == "KDE" then you're already deep into a method of
thinking that makes MS automatically win. If I used one of the big DEs
I'd hate the Linux Desktop too. Not to mention, if you evaluate any
"X" by comparing it to "Y" then "X" will look bad by any difference it
has from "Y".

Sure, performance problems are lame. But rather than complain about
KDE, just go run something else that isn't a huge hog. I use awesome
with a bunch of hand-picked apps and I'm very happy with my "Linux
Desktop".

[ppk-2]

On Mon, Oct 26, 2009 at 11:57:59AM +0100, RedShift wrote:

> This thread will probably erupt in a massive flamewar, yet I decided
> to post my story anyway. I am talking about the desktop experience
> in general, not the technical details behind it. Keep that in mind.



> I've been working these past few months with KDE 4.3 and it feels
> very sluggish and incomplete.

[snip]

> back in. WOOOOOF, everything is fast again. Opening new windows is
> instantaneous, hell even bringing up context menus is faster. If
> Linux is that much better, why does the current Linux desktop (KDE
> 4.3) still suck compared to an operating system that's 8 years old?

Here are my two paises (Indian cents). You bring out a point that I
regularly see:

* Oh my graphics card does not work. Conclusion Linux is not for
desktops.  This was say in 1997 when I started on linux. Surely this
was a problem. But even then things were not bad compared to windows.

* Oh my printer does not work with GNU/Linux. Conclusion Linux is not
for office use.  Yes it is true that some esoteric printers do not
work but then a careful netsearch will give you what to buy. If you
dont want to search a product then your vendor will sell you snakeoil
any way. I bought a Samsung printer (ML something) for my office and
it works like charm.

* Oh my foo bar effect on KDE 4.x/GNOME x.x does not work. Conclusion
Linux is not for desktop usage. What you say might be true. I dont
know because I use xmonad and that beats all other WM in my
opinion. But to conclude we have lost the ``war'' (which war I dont
know) of desktops might be premature.

Really many of us do not care. GNU/Linux and *BSDs give us excellent
servers, desktops, development environments, document creation tools
(TeX/LaTeX) which together is hard to beat. Plus it is hackable and I
have choice of what to use (xmonad for desktop for eg). So as far as I
am concerned the war is over. Opensource won.

Just to illustrate, for a talk I carried my presentation as a pdf file
created using latex beamer on an Arch linux and some one from
Microsoft research carried a ppt (for ``security'' reasons we were not
supposed to connect our laptops on to their projectors vga port). Both
of us were given a windows machine to project the presentations and
yes you guessed it right the ppt fonts were all garbled where as my
pdf file was just fine. In fact the only other presentation that
worked without any problem was also created via beamer on GNU/Linux.


KDE/GNOME/XFCE or whichever is your favorite WM will continue to
produce high quality software and you may also contribute. My
suggestion is forget about the war and have fun. Let the people in
Redmond suffer hypertension by attempting world domination. Meanwhile
try out xmonad even if you do not want to use it.


Regards

ppk