What does jailbreaking mean for the indies?

[Andy H-3]

Is it a case of easy come, easy go?  4 mil users have jail broken apps.  
They think if Jailbreaking becomes legal it will free up the market.

To me, this says that I will not be able to sell iPhone apps anymore
because people can get the software for free...

http://broadcaster.g4tv.com/t?r=4&c=5185&l=82&ctl=1731A:9E01D8302757EA626D68078551C4703B& 
<http://broadcaster.g4tv.com/t?r=4&c=5185&l=82&ctl=1731A:9E01D8302757EA626D68078551C4703B&>



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[Simon Wittber-2]

Preventing piracy of games is next to impossible. Even big companies
with loads of money can't do it right.

I think the best strategy to help mitigate the financial loss caused
by piracy is to value-add your product with services that require an
authentic copy of the game. For example, your app could phone home and
get new levels or characters or art or whatever. Pirated versions
wouldn't be able to do this, so it is more compelling for people to
actually buy the genuine product.

The technical implementation of how to do this is beyond the scope of
this email, but it is possible.


--
    :: Simon Wittber
    :: http://www.linkedin.com/in/simonwittber
    :: phone: [phone]
    :: jabber/msn: simonwittber@...

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[Tim-135]

Jailbreaking will never, ever become legal. Not *ever*. I wouldn't
worry about that!

If you're worried about somebody getting your software for free, I'd
say you have a lot more to worry about than just the iPhone
development market! Piracy is an industry-wide problem, it's part of
the reality of game development. If you charge a reasonable price for
your good-quality product anyway, people will be less motivated to
want to pirate it.

Simon's advice is also sound, the iPhone app Pocket God is a good
example of a constantly expanding game which, due to its frequent new
content, has remained popular long past its launch (which is what most
iPhone apps struggle to achieve!).

TL;DR: Stress lessssss Annndddyyyyyy :D


On Sat, Aug 1, 2009 at 9:39 AM, Andy H<andyhawkins@...> wrote:

> Is it a case of easy come, easy go?  4 mil users have jail broken apps.
>  They think if Jailbreaking becomes legal it will free up the market.
>
> To me, this says that I will not be able to sell iPhone apps anymore because
> people can get the software for free...
>
> http://broadcaster.g4tv.com/t?r=4&c=5185&l=82&ctl=1731A:9E01D8302757EA626D68078551C4703B&
> <http://broadcaster.g4tv.com/t?r=4&c=5185&l=82&ctl=1731A:9E01D8302757EA626D68078551C4703B&>
>
>
>
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--
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[AndyDent]

On 08/01/2009, at 1:18 PM, Tim wrote:
>  If you charge a reasonable price for
> your good-quality product anyway, people will be less motivated to
> want to pirate it.

For me, the high levels of piracy of games costing only a few dollars  
on the iPhone has finally and totally debunked this argument.

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[Chris McCormick]

On Sat, Aug 01, 2009 at 03:18:21PM +1000, Tim wrote:
> Jailbreaking will never, ever become legal. Not *ever*. I wouldn't
> worry about that!

Jailbreaking your iPhone is not definately illegal in the USA, and is probably
legal in many other larger jurisdictions, like Europe [IANAL]. Apple are
currently trying to push the courts in the United States to make it
definitively illegal, and they are using ridiculous tactics to do so, like
equating jailbreaking to terrorism and drug dealing (google "iphone jailbreak
terrorism").

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jailbreaking#Legal_issues>

My personal position is that you purchased it, it is your device, and you
should be able to do whatever you want with it, including running whatever code
you want on it.

> If you're worried about somebody getting your software for free, I'd
> say you have a lot more to worry about than just the iPhone
> development market! Piracy is an industry-wide problem, it's part of
> the reality of game development. If you charge a reasonable price for
> your good-quality product anyway, people will be less motivated to
> want to pirate it.
>
> Simon's advice is also sound, the iPhone app Pocket God is a good
> example of a constantly expanding game which, due to its frequent new
> content, has remained popular long past its launch (which is what most
> iPhone apps struggle to achieve!).

At EuroPython, Cory Doctorow made a really interesting point. He said to to the
audience "raise your hand if you have never pirated media." Almost nobody puts
their hands up. A few people who did put their hands up tentitively put them
down again. He said that even when he talks at big media companies like Disney
the response is exactly the same, except sometimes a very small minority of
deluded people leave their hands up until they see the lawyers in the crowd
looking at them shaking their heads, and then they put down their hands too.

Everybody pirates.

So how do you as a creative person try to mitigate your losses to piracy? There
are several angles to this:

1. Does piracy actually cause you any loss? E.g. how many of the people who
pirate your product would have bought it in the first place? This number is
much lower than you think. When record companies are suing students and single
mothers, they always make this number irrationally large.

2. Stop calling it piracy, and think of it as marketing. What you want is
more eyeballs looking at your product, and more minds thinking about your
product. That is exactly how you increase real sales.

3. If you have a better user experience for getting hold of your product and
you price it right, people would rather buy it than pirate it. This is why the
iTunes music store works and makes a ton of money. It's much "cheaper" for a
user to pay 99c for something they know is an easily obtainable, quality
product, than it is to trawl through torrents and filesharing systems to get
something that might or might not sound good and makes them feel slightly
guilty.

4. A lot of people would like to compensate the creator, but they might like to
try the product for free first. Give them a 'lite' or demo version.

5. What Simon/Tim said.

Good luck, and I hope you make lots and lots of sales. :)

Best,

Chris.

-------------------
http://mccormick.cx

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[Joel Blackwell]

Not everybody pirates ;)

-Joel


Chris McCormick wrote:

> On Sat, Aug 01, 2009 at 03:18:21PM +1000, Tim wrote:
>> Jailbreaking will never, ever become legal. Not *ever*. I wouldn't
>> worry about that!
>
> Jailbreaking your iPhone is not definately illegal in the USA, and is probably
> legal in many other larger jurisdictions, like Europe [IANAL]. Apple are
> currently trying to push the courts in the United States to make it
> definitively illegal, and they are using ridiculous tactics to do so, like
> equating jailbreaking to terrorism and drug dealing (google "iphone jailbreak
> terrorism").
>
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jailbreaking#Legal_issues>
>
> My personal position is that you purchased it, it is your device, and you
> should be able to do whatever you want with it, including running whatever code
> you want on it.
>
>> If you're worried about somebody getting your software for free, I'd
>> say you have a lot more to worry about than just the iPhone
>> development market! Piracy is an industry-wide problem, it's part of
>> the reality of game development. If you charge a reasonable price for
>> your good-quality product anyway, people will be less motivated to
>> want to pirate it.
>>
>> Simon's advice is also sound, the iPhone app Pocket God is a good
>> example of a constantly expanding game which, due to its frequent new
>> content, has remained popular long past its launch (which is what most
>> iPhone apps struggle to achieve!).
>
> At EuroPython, Cory Doctorow made a really interesting point. He said to to the
> audience "raise your hand if you have never pirated media." Almost nobody puts
> their hands up. A few people who did put their hands up tentitively put them
> down again. He said that even when he talks at big media companies like Disney
> the response is exactly the same, except sometimes a very small minority of
> deluded people leave their hands up until they see the lawyers in the crowd
> looking at them shaking their heads, and then they put down their hands too.
>
> Everybody pirates.
>
> So how do you as a creative person try to mitigate your losses to piracy? There
> are several angles to this:
>
> 1. Does piracy actually cause you any loss? E.g. how many of the people who
> pirate your product would have bought it in the first place? This number is
> much lower than you think. When record companies are suing students and single
> mothers, they always make this number irrationally large.
>
> 2. Stop calling it piracy, and think of it as marketing. What you want is
> more eyeballs looking at your product, and more minds thinking about your
> product. That is exactly how you increase real sales.
>
> 3. If you have a better user experience for getting hold of your product and
> you price it right, people would rather buy it than pirate it. This is why the
> iTunes music store works and makes a ton of money. It's much "cheaper" for a
> user to pay 99c for something they know is an easily obtainable, quality
> product, than it is to trawl through torrents and filesharing systems to get
> something that might or might not sound good and makes them feel slightly
> guilty.
>
> 4. A lot of people would like to compensate the creator, but they might like to
> try the product for free first. Give them a 'lite' or demo version.
>
> 5. What Simon/Tim said.
>
> Good luck, and I hope you make lots and lots of sales. :)
>
> Best,
>
> Chris.
>
> -------------------
> http://mccormick.cx
>
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[Chris McCormick]

Welcome to the 0.0001% Joel! (Also you are wrong, you do pirate, you just
haven't realised in which way yet).

Best,

Chris.

On Sat, Aug 01, 2009 at 07:05:54PM +0800, Joel Blackwell wrote:

> Not everybody pirates ;)
>
> -Joel
>
>
> Chris McCormick wrote:
>> On Sat, Aug 01, 2009 at 03:18:21PM +1000, Tim wrote:
>>> Jailbreaking will never, ever become legal. Not *ever*. I wouldn't
>>> worry about that!
>>
>> Jailbreaking your iPhone is not definately illegal in the USA, and is probably
>> legal in many other larger jurisdictions, like Europe [IANAL]. Apple are
>> currently trying to push the courts in the United States to make it
>> definitively illegal, and they are using ridiculous tactics to do so, like
>> equating jailbreaking to terrorism and drug dealing (google "iphone jailbreak
>> terrorism").
>>
>> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jailbreaking#Legal_issues>
>>
>> My personal position is that you purchased it, it is your device, and you
>> should be able to do whatever you want with it, including running whatever code
>> you want on it.
>>
>>> If you're worried about somebody getting your software for free, I'd
>>> say you have a lot more to worry about than just the iPhone
>>> development market! Piracy is an industry-wide problem, it's part of
>>> the reality of game development. If you charge a reasonable price for
>>> your good-quality product anyway, people will be less motivated to
>>> want to pirate it.
>>>
>>> Simon's advice is also sound, the iPhone app Pocket God is a good
>>> example of a constantly expanding game which, due to its frequent new
>>> content, has remained popular long past its launch (which is what most
>>> iPhone apps struggle to achieve!).
>>
>> At EuroPython, Cory Doctorow made a really interesting point. He said to to the
>> audience "raise your hand if you have never pirated media." Almost nobody puts
>> their hands up. A few people who did put their hands up tentitively put them
>> down again. He said that even when he talks at big media companies like Disney
>> the response is exactly the same, except sometimes a very small minority of
>> deluded people leave their hands up until they see the lawyers in the crowd
>> looking at them shaking their heads, and then they put down their hands too.
>>
>> Everybody pirates.
>>
>> So how do you as a creative person try to mitigate your losses to piracy? There
>> are several angles to this:
>>
>> 1. Does piracy actually cause you any loss? E.g. how many of the people who
>> pirate your product would have bought it in the first place? This number is
>> much lower than you think. When record companies are suing students and single
>> mothers, they always make this number irrationally large.
>>
>> 2. Stop calling it piracy, and think of it as marketing. What you want is
>> more eyeballs looking at your product, and more minds thinking about your
>> product. That is exactly how you increase real sales.
>>
>> 3. If you have a better user experience for getting hold of your product and
>> you price it right, people would rather buy it than pirate it. This is why the
>> iTunes music store works and makes a ton of money. It's much "cheaper" for a
>> user to pay 99c for something they know is an easily obtainable, quality
>> product, than it is to trawl through torrents and filesharing systems to get
>> something that might or might not sound good and makes them feel slightly
>> guilty.
>>
>> 4. A lot of people would like to compensate the creator, but they might like to
>> try the product for free first. Give them a 'lite' or demo version.
>>
>> 5. What Simon/Tim said.
>>
>> Good luck, and I hope you make lots and lots of sales. :)
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Chris.
>>
>> -------------------
>> http://mccormick.cx
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>> For additional commands, e-mail: pigmi-help@...
>>
>>
>
>
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[Andy H-3]

So what's the verdict?  Should I keep making games for the iPhone or am
I wasting my time?

Andy H.

> Welcome to the 0.0001% Joel! (Also you are wrong, you do pirate, you just
> haven't realised in which way yet).
>
> Best,
>
> Chris.
>
> On Sat, Aug 01, 2009 at 07:05:54PM +0800, Joel Blackwell wrote:
>  
>> Not everybody pirates ;)
>>
>> -Joel
>>
>>
>> Chris McCormick wrote:
>>    
>>> On Sat, Aug 01, 2009 at 03:18:21PM +1000, Tim wrote:
>>>      
>>>> Jailbreaking will never, ever become legal. Not *ever*. I wouldn't
>>>> worry about that!
>>>>        
>>> Jailbreaking your iPhone is not definately illegal in the USA, and is probably
>>> legal in many other larger jurisdictions, like Europe [IANAL]. Apple are
>>> currently trying to push the courts in the United States to make it
>>> definitively illegal, and they are using ridiculous tactics to do so, like
>>> equating jailbreaking to terrorism and drug dealing (google "iphone jailbreak
>>> terrorism").
>>>
>>> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jailbreaking#Legal_issues>
>>>
>>> My personal position is that you purchased it, it is your device, and you
>>> should be able to do whatever you want with it, including running whatever code
>>> you want on it.
>>>
>>>      
>>>> If you're worried about somebody getting your software for free, I'd
>>>> say you have a lot more to worry about than just the iPhone
>>>> development market! Piracy is an industry-wide problem, it's part of
>>>> the reality of game development. If you charge a reasonable price for
>>>> your good-quality product anyway, people will be less motivated to
>>>> want to pirate it.
>>>>
>>>> Simon's advice is also sound, the iPhone app Pocket God is a good
>>>> example of a constantly expanding game which, due to its frequent new
>>>> content, has remained popular long past its launch (which is what most
>>>> iPhone apps struggle to achieve!).
>>>>        
>>> At EuroPython, Cory Doctorow made a really interesting point. He said to to the
>>> audience "raise your hand if you have never pirated media." Almost nobody puts
>>> their hands up. A few people who did put their hands up tentitively put them
>>> down again. He said that even when he talks at big media companies like Disney
>>> the response is exactly the same, except sometimes a very small minority of
>>> deluded people leave their hands up until they see the lawyers in the crowd
>>> looking at them shaking their heads, and then they put down their hands too.
>>>
>>> Everybody pirates.
>>>
>>> So how do you as a creative person try to mitigate your losses to piracy? There
>>> are several angles to this:
>>>
>>> 1. Does piracy actually cause you any loss? E.g. how many of the people who
>>> pirate your product would have bought it in the first place? This number is
>>> much lower than you think. When record companies are suing students and single
>>> mothers, they always make this number irrationally large.
>>>
>>> 2. Stop calling it piracy, and think of it as marketing. What you want is
>>> more eyeballs looking at your product, and more minds thinking about your
>>> product. That is exactly how you increase real sales.
>>>
>>> 3. If you have a better user experience for getting hold of your product and
>>> you price it right, people would rather buy it than pirate it. This is why the
>>> iTunes music store works and makes a ton of money. It's much "cheaper" for a
>>> user to pay 99c for something they know is an easily obtainable, quality
>>> product, than it is to trawl through torrents and filesharing systems to get
>>> something that might or might not sound good and makes them feel slightly
>>> guilty.
>>>
>>> 4. A lot of people would like to compensate the creator, but they might like to
>>> try the product for free first. Give them a 'lite' or demo version.
>>>
>>> 5. What Simon/Tim said.
>>>
>>> Good luck, and I hope you make lots and lots of sales. :)
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Chris.
>>>
>>> -------------------
>>> http://mccormick.cx
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: pigmi-unsubscribe@...
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: pigmi-help@...
>>>
>>>
>>>      
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> -------------------
> http://mccormick.cx
>
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[Joel Blackwell]

Oooo, sounds mysterious.  Do elaborate.

-Joel


Chris McCormick wrote:

> Welcome to the 0.0001% Joel! (Also you are wrong, you do pirate, you just
> haven't realised in which way yet).
>
> Best,
>
> Chris.
>
> On Sat, Aug 01, 2009 at 07:05:54PM +0800, Joel Blackwell wrote:
>> Not everybody pirates ;)
>>
>> -Joel
>>
>>
>> Chris McCormick wrote:
>>> On Sat, Aug 01, 2009 at 03:18:21PM +1000, Tim wrote:
>>>> Jailbreaking will never, ever become legal. Not *ever*. I wouldn't
>>>> worry about that!
>>> Jailbreaking your iPhone is not definately illegal in the USA, and is probably
>>> legal in many other larger jurisdictions, like Europe [IANAL]. Apple are
>>> currently trying to push the courts in the United States to make it
>>> definitively illegal, and they are using ridiculous tactics to do so, like
>>> equating jailbreaking to terrorism and drug dealing (google "iphone jailbreak
>>> terrorism").
>>>
>>> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jailbreaking#Legal_issues>
>>>
>>> My personal position is that you purchased it, it is your device, and you
>>> should be able to do whatever you want with it, including running whatever code
>>> you want on it.
>>>
>>>> If you're worried about somebody getting your software for free, I'd
>>>> say you have a lot more to worry about than just the iPhone
>>>> development market! Piracy is an industry-wide problem, it's part of
>>>> the reality of game development. If you charge a reasonable price for
>>>> your good-quality product anyway, people will be less motivated to
>>>> want to pirate it.
>>>>
>>>> Simon's advice is also sound, the iPhone app Pocket God is a good
>>>> example of a constantly expanding game which, due to its frequent new
>>>> content, has remained popular long past its launch (which is what most
>>>> iPhone apps struggle to achieve!).
>>> At EuroPython, Cory Doctorow made a really interesting point. He said to to the
>>> audience "raise your hand if you have never pirated media." Almost nobody puts
>>> their hands up. A few people who did put their hands up tentitively put them
>>> down again. He said that even when he talks at big media companies like Disney
>>> the response is exactly the same, except sometimes a very small minority of
>>> deluded people leave their hands up until they see the lawyers in the crowd
>>> looking at them shaking their heads, and then they put down their hands too.
>>>
>>> Everybody pirates.
>>>
>>> So how do you as a creative person try to mitigate your losses to piracy? There
>>> are several angles to this:
>>>
>>> 1. Does piracy actually cause you any loss? E.g. how many of the people who
>>> pirate your product would have bought it in the first place? This number is
>>> much lower than you think. When record companies are suing students and single
>>> mothers, they always make this number irrationally large.
>>>
>>> 2. Stop calling it piracy, and think of it as marketing. What you want is
>>> more eyeballs looking at your product, and more minds thinking about your
>>> product. That is exactly how you increase real sales.
>>>
>>> 3. If you have a better user experience for getting hold of your product and
>>> you price it right, people would rather buy it than pirate it. This is why the
>>> iTunes music store works and makes a ton of money. It's much "cheaper" for a
>>> user to pay 99c for something they know is an easily obtainable, quality
>>> product, than it is to trawl through torrents and filesharing systems to get
>>> something that might or might not sound good and makes them feel slightly
>>> guilty.
>>>
>>> 4. A lot of people would like to compensate the creator, but they might like to
>>> try the product for free first. Give them a 'lite' or demo version.
>>>
>>> 5. What Simon/Tim said.
>>>
>>> Good luck, and I hope you make lots and lots of sales. :)
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Chris.
>>>
>>> -------------------
>>> http://mccormick.cx
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: pigmi-unsubscribe@...
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: pigmi-help@...
>>>
>>>
>>
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[Tim-135]

Of course you should keep making them! Do it to it Andy, we both know
making games is your passion and the iPhone is no more or less a waste
of time than any platform. At least it's got zeitgeist going for it!

@Chris: I stand corrected! Perhaps I should have said "Jailbreaking
will never become a major problem in terms of selling your app, since
the vast majority of iPhone customers don't care enough to do it" ;)


On Sat, Aug 1, 2009 at 9:55 PM, Andy H<andyhawkins@...> wrote:
> So what's the verdict?  Should I keep making games for the iPhone or am I
> wasting my time?
>
> Andy H.

--
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[Andy H-3]

Thanks Tim - I should stop whinging I suppose.  Working on my new iPhone
app now :)

> Of course you should keep making them! Do it to it Andy, we both know
> making games is your passion and the iPhone is no more or less a waste
> of time than any platform. At least it's got zeitgeist going for it!
>
> @Chris: I stand corrected! Perhaps I should have said "Jailbreaking
> will never become a major problem in terms of selling your app, since
> the vast majority of iPhone customers don't care enough to do it" ;)
>
>
> On Sat, Aug 1, 2009 at 9:55 PM, Andy H<andyhawkins@...> wrote:
>  
>> So what's the verdict?  Should I keep making games for the iPhone or am I
>> wasting my time?
>>
>> Andy H.
>>    
>
>  

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[Chris McCormick]

On Sat, Aug 01, 2009 at 09:28:49PM +0800, Joel Blackwell wrote:
> Oooo, sounds mysterious.  Do elaborate.

Come on, you know it's true. You've never ever made a mixtape or mix CD in your
life? You never copied VHS tapes or recorded anything off TV ever? You never
copied Commodore 64 or Apple IIe games for or from your friends? You've never
been at a friend's house when they watched a pirated DVD and you watched too?

Everyone is a pirate.

Chris.

> Chris McCormick wrote:
>> Welcome to the 0.0001% Joel! (Also you are wrong, you do pirate, you just
>> haven't realised in which way yet).
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Chris.
>>
>> On Sat, Aug 01, 2009 at 07:05:54PM +0800, Joel Blackwell wrote:
>>> Not everybody pirates ;)
>>>
>>> -Joel
>>>
>>>
>>> Chris McCormick wrote:
>>>> On Sat, Aug 01, 2009 at 03:18:21PM +1000, Tim wrote:
>>>>> Jailbreaking will never, ever become legal. Not *ever*. I wouldn't
>>>>> worry about that!
>>>> Jailbreaking your iPhone is not definately illegal in the USA, and is probably
>>>> legal in many other larger jurisdictions, like Europe [IANAL]. Apple are
>>>> currently trying to push the courts in the United States to make it
>>>> definitively illegal, and they are using ridiculous tactics to do so, like
>>>> equating jailbreaking to terrorism and drug dealing (google "iphone jailbreak
>>>> terrorism").
>>>>
>>>> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jailbreaking#Legal_issues>
>>>>
>>>> My personal position is that you purchased it, it is your device, and you
>>>> should be able to do whatever you want with it, including running whatever code
>>>> you want on it.
>>>>
>>>>> If you're worried about somebody getting your software for free, I'd
>>>>> say you have a lot more to worry about than just the iPhone
>>>>> development market! Piracy is an industry-wide problem, it's part of
>>>>> the reality of game development. If you charge a reasonable price for
>>>>> your good-quality product anyway, people will be less motivated to
>>>>> want to pirate it.
>>>>>
>>>>> Simon's advice is also sound, the iPhone app Pocket God is a good
>>>>> example of a constantly expanding game which, due to its frequent new
>>>>> content, has remained popular long past its launch (which is what most
>>>>> iPhone apps struggle to achieve!).
>>>> At EuroPython, Cory Doctorow made a really interesting point. He said to to the
>>>> audience "raise your hand if you have never pirated media." Almost nobody puts
>>>> their hands up. A few people who did put their hands up tentitively put them
>>>> down again. He said that even when he talks at big media companies like Disney
>>>> the response is exactly the same, except sometimes a very small minority of
>>>> deluded people leave their hands up until they see the lawyers in the crowd
>>>> looking at them shaking their heads, and then they put down their hands too.
>>>>
>>>> Everybody pirates.
>>>>
>>>> So how do you as a creative person try to mitigate your losses to piracy? There
>>>> are several angles to this:
>>>>
>>>> 1. Does piracy actually cause you any loss? E.g. how many of the people who
>>>> pirate your product would have bought it in the first place? This number is
>>>> much lower than you think. When record companies are suing students and single
>>>> mothers, they always make this number irrationally large.
>>>>
>>>> 2. Stop calling it piracy, and think of it as marketing. What you want is
>>>> more eyeballs looking at your product, and more minds thinking about your
>>>> product. That is exactly how you increase real sales.
>>>>
>>>> 3. If you have a better user experience for getting hold of your product and
>>>> you price it right, people would rather buy it than pirate it. This is why the
>>>> iTunes music store works and makes a ton of money. It's much "cheaper" for a
>>>> user to pay 99c for something they know is an easily obtainable, quality
>>>> product, than it is to trawl through torrents and filesharing systems to get
>>>> something that might or might not sound good and makes them feel slightly
>>>> guilty.
>>>>
>>>> 4. A lot of people would like to compensate the creator, but they might like to
>>>> try the product for free first. Give them a 'lite' or demo version.
>>>>
>>>> 5. What Simon/Tim said.
>>>>
>>>> Good luck, and I hope you make lots and lots of sales. :)
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>>
>>>> Chris.
>>>>
>>>> -------------------
>>>> http://mccormick.cx
>>>>
>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: pigmi-unsubscribe@...
>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: pigmi-help@...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
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>>
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[Crispin Wellington-2]

On Sun, Aug 2, 2009 at 12:46 AM, Chris McCormick <chris@...> wrote:

On Sat, Aug 01, 2009 at 09:28:49PM +0800, Joel Blackwell wrote:
> Oooo, sounds mysterious.  Do elaborate.

Come on, you know it's true. You've never ever made a mixtape or mix CD in your
life? You never copied VHS tapes or recorded anything off TV ever? You never
copied Commodore 64 or Apple IIe games for or from your friends? You've never
been at a friend's house when they watched a pirated DVD and you watched too?

Everyone is a pirate.

Indeed everyone has pirated at some stage.

Ever photocopied a part of a book?

On Sat, Aug 01, 2009 at 03:18:21PM +1000, Tim wrote:
> Jailbreaking will never, ever become legal. Not *ever*. I wouldn't
> worry about that!

This is not true. It may be illegal in some juristictions, but not in others. In Australia it is legal and this status was strengthened by Stevens v Kabushiki Kaisha Sony Computer Entertainment [2005] HCA 58 (6 October 2005). Just because Apple says its illegal, does not make it so. But they are entitled to their opinion.

Crispin

[Nick Lowe-3]

Until a few years ago, the real kicker in Australia was: "Have you ever
*owned* an MP3 player or DVD burner (or any other device capable of
copying and reproducing copyright materials?)"

- Nick

On Sat, 2009-08-01 at 17:46 +0100, Chris McCormick wrote:

> On Sat, Aug 01, 2009 at 09:28:49PM +0800, Joel Blackwell wrote:
> > Oooo, sounds mysterious.  Do elaborate.
>
> Come on, you know it's true. You've never ever made a mixtape or mix CD in your
> life? You never copied VHS tapes or recorded anything off TV ever? You never
> copied Commodore 64 or Apple IIe games for or from your friends? You've never
> been at a friend's house when they watched a pirated DVD and you watched too?
>
> Everyone is a pirate.
>
> Chris.
>
> > Chris McCormick wrote:
> >> Welcome to the 0.0001% Joel! (Also you are wrong, you do pirate, you just
> >> haven't realised in which way yet).
> >>
> >> Best,
> >>
> >> Chris.
> >>
> >> On Sat, Aug 01, 2009 at 07:05:54PM +0800, Joel Blackwell wrote:
> >>> Not everybody pirates ;)
> >>>
> >>> -Joel
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Chris McCormick wrote:
> >>>> On Sat, Aug 01, 2009 at 03:18:21PM +1000, Tim wrote:
> >>>>> Jailbreaking will never, ever become legal. Not *ever*. I wouldn't
> >>>>> worry about that!
> >>>> Jailbreaking your iPhone is not definately illegal in the USA, and is probably
> >>>> legal in many other larger jurisdictions, like Europe [IANAL]. Apple are
> >>>> currently trying to push the courts in the United States to make it
> >>>> definitively illegal, and they are using ridiculous tactics to do so, like
> >>>> equating jailbreaking to terrorism and drug dealing (google "iphone jailbreak
> >>>> terrorism").
> >>>>
> >>>> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jailbreaking#Legal_issues>
> >>>>
> >>>> My personal position is that you purchased it, it is your device, and you
> >>>> should be able to do whatever you want with it, including running whatever code
> >>>> you want on it.
> >>>>
> >>>>> If you're worried about somebody getting your software for free, I'd
> >>>>> say you have a lot more to worry about than just the iPhone
> >>>>> development market! Piracy is an industry-wide problem, it's part of
> >>>>> the reality of game development. If you charge a reasonable price for
> >>>>> your good-quality product anyway, people will be less motivated to
> >>>>> want to pirate it.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Simon's advice is also sound, the iPhone app Pocket God is a good
> >>>>> example of a constantly expanding game which, due to its frequent new
> >>>>> content, has remained popular long past its launch (which is what most
> >>>>> iPhone apps struggle to achieve!).
> >>>> At EuroPython, Cory Doctorow made a really interesting point. He said to to the
> >>>> audience "raise your hand if you have never pirated media." Almost nobody puts
> >>>> their hands up. A few people who did put their hands up tentitively put them
> >>>> down again. He said that even when he talks at big media companies like Disney
> >>>> the response is exactly the same, except sometimes a very small minority of
> >>>> deluded people leave their hands up until they see the lawyers in the crowd
> >>>> looking at them shaking their heads, and then they put down their hands too.
> >>>>
> >>>> Everybody pirates.
> >>>>
> >>>> So how do you as a creative person try to mitigate your losses to piracy? There
> >>>> are several angles to this:
> >>>>
> >>>> 1. Does piracy actually cause you any loss? E.g. how many of the people who
> >>>> pirate your product would have bought it in the first place? This number is
> >>>> much lower than you think. When record companies are suing students and single
> >>>> mothers, they always make this number irrationally large.
> >>>>
> >>>> 2. Stop calling it piracy, and think of it as marketing. What you want is
> >>>> more eyeballs looking at your product, and more minds thinking about your
> >>>> product. That is exactly how you increase real sales.
> >>>>
> >>>> 3. If you have a better user experience for getting hold of your product and
> >>>> you price it right, people would rather buy it than pirate it. This is why the
> >>>> iTunes music store works and makes a ton of money. It's much "cheaper" for a
> >>>> user to pay 99c for something they know is an easily obtainable, quality
> >>>> product, than it is to trawl through torrents and filesharing systems to get
> >>>> something that might or might not sound good and makes them feel slightly
> >>>> guilty.
> >>>>
> >>>> 4. A lot of people would like to compensate the creator, but they might like to
> >>>> try the product for free first. Give them a 'lite' or demo version.
> >>>>
> >>>> 5. What Simon/Tim said.
> >>>>
> >>>> Good luck, and I hope you make lots and lots of sales. :)
> >>>>
> >>>> Best,
> >>>>
> >>>> Chris.
> >>>>
> >>>> -------------------
> >>>> http://mccormick.cx
> >>>>
> >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: pigmi-unsubscribe@...
> >>>> For additional commands, e-mail: pigmi-help@...
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: pigmi-unsubscribe@...
> >>> For additional commands, e-mail: pigmi-help@...
> >>>
> >> -------------------
> >> http://mccormick.cx
> >>
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: pigmi-unsubscribe@...
> >> For additional commands, e-mail: pigmi-help@...
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> >
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>
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[Nick Lowe-3]

It's best to be pragmatic IMO.

The questions that you need to ask yourself are:

1. Are you getting enough out of making iPhone games (personally,
financially, etc.) to continue?

2. If not, is this due to piracy? (or price, features, marketing etc.)

Don't think about whether you should stop because of piracy unless:

- The answer to the first question is "no" and the answer to the second
question is "yes".

- There is something you can do about it (eg. phone home features) and
it's a worthwhile time investment (expected returns over cost)

You can ask the same questions about many things other than piracy:
Should I have put more levels in? Should I have charged more/less?
Should I have spent more on marketing? Should I have made a different
game?

There are heaps of factors contributing to what returns you see from the
game, and I'm confident that most are more important than the level of
piracy.

The effect of piracy is difficult to quantify. Would people who pirated
your game really ever have been willing to buy it? Has anyone seen the
pirated version (maybe on a friend's iPhone) and then decided to buy it?

Just like businesses need to take into account accidental damage and
shoplifting - you should make reasonable efforts to minimise piracy, but
also accept that it's not going away.

- Nick

On Sat, 2009-08-01 at 19:55 +0800, Andy H wrote:
> So what's the verdict?  Should I keep making games for the iPhone or am
> I wasting my time?
>
> Andy H.



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[Andy H-3]

I guess it's just weird to me that someone would pirate a $1 game - I
thought the reason people pirated was because something they wanted,
they couldn't afford.  It would seem that people pirate because they
can, or that it is there, or that it is a challenge.

> It's best to be pragmatic IMO.
>
> The questions that you need to ask yourself are:
>
> 1. Are you getting enough out of making iPhone games (personally,
> financially, etc.) to continue?
>
> 2. If not, is this due to piracy? (or price, features, marketing etc.)
>
> Don't think about whether you should stop because of piracy unless:
>
> - The answer to the first question is "no" and the answer to the second
> question is "yes".
>
> - There is something you can do about it (eg. phone home features) and
> it's a worthwhile time investment (expected returns over cost)
>
> You can ask the same questions about many things other than piracy:
> Should I have put more levels in? Should I have charged more/less?
> Should I have spent more on marketing? Should I have made a different
> game?
>
> There are heaps of factors contributing to what returns you see from the
> game, and I'm confident that most are more important than the level of
> piracy.
>
> The effect of piracy is difficult to quantify. Would people who pirated
> your game really ever have been willing to buy it? Has anyone seen the
> pirated version (maybe on a friend's iPhone) and then decided to buy it?
>
> Just like businesses need to take into account accidental damage and
> shoplifting - you should make reasonable efforts to minimise piracy, but
> also accept that it's not going away.
>
> - Nick
>
> On Sat, 2009-08-01 at 19:55 +0800, Andy H wrote:
>  
>> So what's the verdict?  Should I keep making games for the iPhone or am
>> I wasting my time?
>>
>> Andy H.
>>    
>
>
>
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> For additional commands, e-mail: pigmi-help@...
>
>
>  

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[Paul Turbett-3]

Interesting thread. It got me thinking, what would happen if every
developer, musician, film maker, etc. those work was pirated decided to stop
producing..?

-----Original Message-----
From: Andy H [mailto:andyhawkins@...]
Sent: Sunday, 2 August 2009 9:51 AM
To: pigmi@...
Subject: Re: [PIGMI] What does jailbreaking mean for the indies?

I guess it's just weird to me that someone would pirate a $1 game - I
thought the reason people pirated was because something they wanted,
they couldn't afford.  It would seem that people pirate because they
can, or that it is there, or that it is a challenge.

> It's best to be pragmatic IMO.
>
> The questions that you need to ask yourself are:
>
> 1. Are you getting enough out of making iPhone games (personally,
> financially, etc.) to continue?
>
> 2. If not, is this due to piracy? (or price, features, marketing etc.)
>
> Don't think about whether you should stop because of piracy unless:
>
> - The answer to the first question is "no" and the answer to the second
> question is "yes".
>
> - There is something you can do about it (eg. phone home features) and
> it's a worthwhile time investment (expected returns over cost)
>
> You can ask the same questions about many things other than piracy:
> Should I have put more levels in? Should I have charged more/less?
> Should I have spent more on marketing? Should I have made a different
> game?
>
> There are heaps of factors contributing to what returns you see from the
> game, and I'm confident that most are more important than the level of
> piracy.
>
> The effect of piracy is difficult to quantify. Would people who pirated
> your game really ever have been willing to buy it? Has anyone seen the
> pirated version (maybe on a friend's iPhone) and then decided to buy it?
>
> Just like businesses need to take into account accidental damage and
> shoplifting - you should make reasonable efforts to minimise piracy, but
> also accept that it's not going away.
>
> - Nick
>
> On Sat, 2009-08-01 at 19:55 +0800, Andy H wrote:
>  
>> So what's the verdict?  Should I keep making games for the iPhone or am
>> I wasting my time?
>>
>> Andy H.
>>    
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: pigmi-unsubscribe@...
> For additional commands, e-mail: pigmi-help@...
>
>
>  

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[Joel Blackwell]

I've done all of what you've mentioned, but I don't any more.  I make
willing choices not to do anything 'pirate like' (and haven't for many
years, if my memory serves me correctly).  So, does that mean I should
be lumped into the same crowd that Cory Doctorow was apparently trying
to demonstrate exists?  Once a pirate, always a pirate?  If I do
something unknowingly illegal, does that make me a pirate?  Or, the
better question would be- how should I be classified by companies?

Casual piracy is vastly in the majority, no doubt, but I'm not sold on
the idea of labelling *everyone* a pirate, simply because at one time or
another they had a hand in either illegally distributing or viewing some
kind of digital media.

I get the point Chris- just debating the semantics of it all :)  If
nothing else, the saying 'everyone is a pirate', doesn't accurately
reflect the situation, as it's relevant to the game developers.

-Joel


Chris McCormick wrote:

> On Sat, Aug 01, 2009 at 09:28:49PM +0800, Joel Blackwell wrote:
>> Oooo, sounds mysterious.  Do elaborate.
>
> Come on, you know it's true. You've never ever made a mixtape or mix CD in your
> life? You never copied VHS tapes or recorded anything off TV ever? You never
> copied Commodore 64 or Apple IIe games for or from your friends? You've never
> been at a friend's house when they watched a pirated DVD and you watched too?
>
> Everyone is a pirate.
>
> Chris.
>
>> Chris McCormick wrote:
>>> Welcome to the 0.0001% Joel! (Also you are wrong, you do pirate, you just
>>> haven't realised in which way yet).
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Chris.
>>>
>>> On Sat, Aug 01, 2009 at 07:05:54PM +0800, Joel Blackwell wrote:
>>>> Not everybody pirates ;)
>>>>
>>>> -Joel
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Chris McCormick wrote:
>>>>> On Sat, Aug 01, 2009 at 03:18:21PM +1000, Tim wrote:
>>>>>> Jailbreaking will never, ever become legal. Not *ever*. I wouldn't
>>>>>> worry about that!
>>>>> Jailbreaking your iPhone is not definately illegal in the USA, and is probably
>>>>> legal in many other larger jurisdictions, like Europe [IANAL]. Apple are
>>>>> currently trying to push the courts in the United States to make it
>>>>> definitively illegal, and they are using ridiculous tactics to do so, like
>>>>> equating jailbreaking to terrorism and drug dealing (google "iphone jailbreak
>>>>> terrorism").
>>>>>
>>>>> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jailbreaking#Legal_issues>
>>>>>
>>>>> My personal position is that you purchased it, it is your device, and you
>>>>> should be able to do whatever you want with it, including running whatever code
>>>>> you want on it.
>>>>>
>>>>>> If you're worried about somebody getting your software for free, I'd
>>>>>> say you have a lot more to worry about than just the iPhone
>>>>>> development market! Piracy is an industry-wide problem, it's part of
>>>>>> the reality of game development. If you charge a reasonable price for
>>>>>> your good-quality product anyway, people will be less motivated to
>>>>>> want to pirate it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Simon's advice is also sound, the iPhone app Pocket God is a good
>>>>>> example of a constantly expanding game which, due to its frequent new
>>>>>> content, has remained popular long past its launch (which is what most
>>>>>> iPhone apps struggle to achieve!).
>>>>> At EuroPython, Cory Doctorow made a really interesting point. He said to to the
>>>>> audience "raise your hand if you have never pirated media." Almost nobody puts
>>>>> their hands up. A few people who did put their hands up tentitively put them
>>>>> down again. He said that even when he talks at big media companies like Disney
>>>>> the response is exactly the same, except sometimes a very small minority of
>>>>> deluded people leave their hands up until they see the lawyers in the crowd
>>>>> looking at them shaking their heads, and then they put down their hands too.
>>>>>
>>>>> Everybody pirates.
>>>>>
>>>>> So how do you as a creative person try to mitigate your losses to piracy? There
>>>>> are several angles to this:
>>>>>
>>>>> 1. Does piracy actually cause you any loss? E.g. how many of the people who
>>>>> pirate your product would have bought it in the first place? This number is
>>>>> much lower than you think. When record companies are suing students and single
>>>>> mothers, they always make this number irrationally large.
>>>>>
>>>>> 2. Stop calling it piracy, and think of it as marketing. What you want is
>>>>> more eyeballs looking at your product, and more minds thinking about your
>>>>> product. That is exactly how you increase real sales.
>>>>>
>>>>> 3. If you have a better user experience for getting hold of your product and
>>>>> you price it right, people would rather buy it than pirate it. This is why the
>>>>> iTunes music store works and makes a ton of money. It's much "cheaper" for a
>>>>> user to pay 99c for something they know is an easily obtainable, quality
>>>>> product, than it is to trawl through torrents and filesharing systems to get
>>>>> something that might or might not sound good and makes them feel slightly
>>>>> guilty.
>>>>>
>>>>> 4. A lot of people would like to compensate the creator, but they might like to
>>>>> try the product for free first. Give them a 'lite' or demo version.
>>>>>
>>>>> 5. What Simon/Tim said.
>>>>>
>>>>> Good luck, and I hope you make lots and lots of sales. :)
>>>>>
>>>>> Best,
>>>>>
>>>>> Chris.
>>>>>
>>>>> -------------------
>>>>> http://mccormick.cx
>>>>>
>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: pigmi-unsubscribe@...
>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: pigmi-help@...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: pigmi-unsubscribe@...
>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: pigmi-help@...
>>>>
>>> -------------------
>>> http://mccormick.cx
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>>> For additional commands, e-mail: pigmi-help@...
>>>
>>>
>>
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>>
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>
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[Chris McCormick]

On Sun, Aug 02, 2009 at 04:33:05PM +0800, Joel Blackwell wrote:

> I've done all of what you've mentioned, but I don't any more.  I make  
> willing choices not to do anything 'pirate like' (and haven't for many  
> years, if my memory serves me correctly).  So, does that mean I should  
> be lumped into the same crowd that Cory Doctorow was apparently trying  
> to demonstrate exists?  Once a pirate, always a pirate?  If I do  
> something unknowingly illegal, does that make me a pirate?  Or, the  
> better question would be- how should I be classified by companies?
>
> Casual piracy is vastly in the majority, no doubt, but I'm not sold on  
> the idea of labelling *everyone* a pirate, simply because at one time or  
> another they had a hand in either illegally distributing or viewing some  
> kind of digital media.

That is exactly what a pirate is. Someone who has illegaly distributed or
viewed some kind of digital media. Why try and cut it any other way?

People like to think of "those dirty pirates" and kind of externalise the
guilt. "What I do is ok, becuase I just copied a couple of songs for my
boyfriend, but I'm not one of those dirty pirates." Guess what? We are the
dirty pirates. If not you specifically, because you try so hard not to pirate,
then our families, and our friends, and our co-workers.

The worst at this are journalists. I'm tired of reading pieces about pirates as
if they are some mass of people sitting behind computers with eyepatches and
cutlasses, cackling manically as they distribute gigs and gigs of media to
eachother and wilfully destroy the media industries. The journalists who write
that stuff are the pirates themselves. We are all the pirates. Let us, the
digital media community, get honest with ourselves and drop the artificial
distinction between ourselves and those make-believe dirty pirates. Once we've
done that we can stop trying to inconvenience and alienate our customers and
stop treating copying and sharing as something that you shouldn't do with
digital media. Of course you should do it. It's the easiest and most natural
thing in the world, and we should come up with business models that work in
this very real new world.

Ignore those advertisements which say that copying is stealing. Copying is
clearly not stealing. It's something completely different and we as a society
still haven't figured out what we think of copying, in a moral sense. To
simplistically say that copying is identical to stealing is total rubbish by
virtue of the fact that when you steal something, you deprive someone else of a
physical thing, but when you copy something, the most you can deprive them of
is a hypothetical future profit. Copying != stealing.

> I get the point Chris- just debating the semantics of it all :)  If  
> nothing else, the saying 'everyone is a pirate', doesn't accurately  
> reflect the situation, as it's relevant to the game developers.

I think it very much reflects the situation as it's relevant to game
developers. The key is a frank and honest admission that "I have pirated the
media of others, and so others will pirate my media." You can't stop them, and
they can't stop you. Once you have admitted and come to terms with that, you
will find it much easier to figure out ways to make money in such a world.

Best,

Chris.

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[Chris McCormick]

On Sun, Aug 02, 2009 at 09:50:51AM +0800, Andy H wrote:
> I guess it's just weird to me that someone would pirate a $1 game - I  
> thought the reason people pirated was because something they wanted,  
> they couldn't afford.  It would seem that people pirate because they  
> can, or that it is there, or that it is a challenge.

The nominal value of a song is 99c. Ask yourself if you have ever copied a
song. Ask yourself what your reason was for copying that song. (If not
yourself, then someone close to you.) The answer will probably help you figure
out why someone else would pirate your $1 game.

Best,

Chris.

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