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What is the waveform with even harmonics calledHello,
What is the name of the waveform which has even harmonics which fall off at 6dB/octave? By comparison: sawtooth wave = even + odd harmonics falling off at 6dB/octave square = odd harmonics falling off at 6dB/octave triangle wave = odd harmonics falling off at 12dB/octave You can see what it looks like using this matlab/octave code: # even wave N = 2000; t = ([0:1000] / 1000) * 4 * pi; f = zeros (1,1001); for k = [1,(1:2:N)+1] f = f + sin (k * t) / k; end f = f * 0.88678; plot(t,f) set(gca,'XTick',0:pi/2:4*pi) set(gca,'XTickLabel',{'0','pi/2','pi','3pi/2','2pi','5pi/2','3pi','7pi/2','4pi'}) grid on axis normal Are there any nifty ways to generate this waveform efficiently? thanks! - jeremy -- dupswapdrop -- the music-dsp mailing list and website: subscription info, FAQ, source code archive, list archive, book reviews, dsp links http://music.columbia.edu/cmc/music-dsp http://music.columbia.edu/mailman/listinfo/music-dsp |
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Re: What is the waveform with even harmonics calledOn Mon, Jun 15, 2009 at 3:03 PM, Jeremy Shaw<jeremy@...> wrote:
> Hello, > > What is the name of the waveform which has even harmonics which fall > off at 6dB/octave? Take the even numbers and divide them by two. Then you have a full harmonic series. So, the even harmonics are just a harmonic series that is one octave higher. It's a sawtooth wave plus a sine one octave down. There's any number of different functions that will be orthogonal to the odd-numbered harmonics, but not as likely that it will be one of these "easy" functions like square, sawtooth, or triangle. > By comparison: > > sawtooth wave = even + odd harmonics falling off at 6dB/octave > square = odd harmonics falling off at 6dB/octave > triangle wave = odd harmonics falling off at 12dB/octave > > You can see what it looks like using this matlab/octave code: > > # even wave > N = 2000; > t = ([0:1000] / 1000) * 4 * pi; > f = zeros (1,1001); > for k = [1,(1:2:N)+1] > f = f + sin (k * t) / k; > end > f = f * 0.88678; > plot(t,f) > set(gca,'XTick',0:pi/2:4*pi) > set(gca,'XTickLabel',{'0','pi/2','pi','3pi/2','2pi','5pi/2','3pi','7pi/2','4pi'}) > grid on > axis normal > > Are there any nifty ways to generate this waveform efficiently? > > thanks! > - jeremy > -- > dupswapdrop -- the music-dsp mailing list and website: > subscription info, FAQ, source code archive, list archive, book reviews, dsp links > http://music.columbia.edu/cmc/music-dsp > http://music.columbia.edu/mailman/listinfo/music-dsp > dupswapdrop -- the music-dsp mailing list and website: subscription info, FAQ, source code archive, list archive, book reviews, dsp links http://music.columbia.edu/cmc/music-dsp http://music.columbia.edu/mailman/listinfo/music-dsp |
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Re: What is the waveform with even harmonics calledI don't see why waveforms would necessarily need a name.
IMHO to generate any bandlimited (short) waveform efficiently, an inverse FFT is really the best choice. These days it's very little CPU. Then once you have direct access to harmonics & phases, you forget traditional (named) waveforms and you play with sound in a better way. > Hello, > > What is the name of the waveform which has even harmonics which fall > off at 6dB/octave? > > By comparison: > > sawtooth wave = even + odd harmonics falling off at 6dB/octave > square = odd harmonics falling off at 6dB/octave > triangle wave = odd harmonics falling off at 12dB/octave > > You can see what it looks like using this matlab/octave code: > > # even wave > N = 2000; > t = ([0:1000] / 1000) * 4 * pi; > f = zeros (1,1001); > for k = [1,(1:2:N)+1] > f = f + sin (k * t) / k; > end > f = f * 0.88678; > plot(t,f) > set(gca,'XTick',0:pi/2:4*pi) > set(gca,'XTickLabel',{'0','pi/2','pi','3pi/2','2pi','5pi/2','3pi','7pi/2','4pi'}) > grid on > axis normal > > Are there any nifty ways to generate this waveform efficiently? > > thanks! > - jeremy > -- > dupswapdrop -- the music-dsp mailing list and website: > subscription info, FAQ, source code archive, list archive, book reviews, > dsp links > http://music.columbia.edu/cmc/music-dsp > http://music.columbia.edu/mailman/listinfo/music-dsp -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.364 / Virus Database: 270.12.70/2177 - Release Date: 06/15/09 05:54:00 -- dupswapdrop -- the music-dsp mailing list and website: subscription info, FAQ, source code archive, list archive, book reviews, dsp links http://music.columbia.edu/cmc/music-dsp http://music.columbia.edu/mailman/listinfo/music-dsp |
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RE: What is the waveform with even harmonics calledSorry to sound like such a noob, but how do you relate the factors of a FFT
that is bound to the sampling rate to one that is related to the harmonic serie of an oscillator running at a non related frequency ? Do you operate at the oscillator frequency and then proceed to resampling in the time domain or is it possible to combine everything in one single operation ? Thanks Marc. -----Original Message----- From: music-dsp-bounces@... [mailto:music-dsp-bounces@...] On Behalf Of Didier Dambrin Sent: mardi 16 juin 2009 0:04 To: A discussion list for music-related DSP Subject: Re: [music-dsp] What is the waveform with even harmonics called I don't see why waveforms would necessarily need a name. IMHO to generate any bandlimited (short) waveform efficiently, an inverse FFT is really the best choice. These days it's very little CPU. Then once you have direct access to harmonics & phases, you forget traditional (named) waveforms and you play with sound in a better way. -- dupswapdrop -- the music-dsp mailing list and website: subscription info, FAQ, source code archive, list archive, book reviews, dsp links http://music.columbia.edu/cmc/music-dsp http://music.columbia.edu/mailman/listinfo/music-dsp |
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Re: What is the waveform with even harmonics calledYou would indeed compute a shape somewhat larger (depending on your
interpolation method) than a phase at the samplerate, & resample. The only flaw with this design is if you want to pitchbend, you may have to recompute bandlimited shape. But instead, I'd suggest processing at twice the samplerate, bandlimiting at 1.5 nyquist, leaving you a +-6 semitones pitch bending. > Sorry to sound like such a noob, but how do you relate the factors of a > FFT > that is bound to the sampling rate to one that is related to the harmonic > serie of an oscillator running at a non related frequency ? Do you operate > at the oscillator frequency and then proceed to resampling in the time > domain or is it possible to combine everything in one single operation ? > > Thanks > Marc. > > -----Original Message----- > From: music-dsp-bounces@... > [mailto:music-dsp-bounces@...] On Behalf Of Didier Dambrin > Sent: mardi 16 juin 2009 0:04 > To: A discussion list for music-related DSP > Subject: Re: [music-dsp] What is the waveform with even harmonics called > > I don't see why waveforms would necessarily need a name. > > IMHO to generate any bandlimited (short) waveform efficiently, an inverse > FFT is really the best choice. These days it's very little CPU. > > Then once you have direct access to harmonics & phases, you forget > traditional (named) waveforms and you play with sound in a better way. > > > -- > dupswapdrop -- the music-dsp mailing list and website: > subscription info, FAQ, source code archive, list archive, book reviews, > dsp links > http://music.columbia.edu/cmc/music-dsp > http://music.columbia.edu/mailman/listinfo/music-dsp -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.364 / Virus Database: 270.12.76/2183 - Release Date: 06/17/09 05:53:00 -- dupswapdrop -- the music-dsp mailing list and website: subscription info, FAQ, source code archive, list archive, book reviews, dsp links http://music.columbia.edu/cmc/music-dsp http://music.columbia.edu/mailman/listinfo/music-dsp |
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Re: What is the waveform with even harmonics calledOn Jun 17, 2009, at 5:50 AM, padawan12@... wrote: > It's worth remembering that sometimes in sound synthesis > (and other engineering applications) it's the time domain > properties of a wave that we are really interested in. > > For example, as a control waveform (say the sawtooth/phasor > used as a display scanline) or if a sound synthesis design > despends upon subsequent non-linear stages (waveshaping). > In these cases we are interested in the shape, so classical > waveform names are really about naming the shape. Thanks. Made me think about 'turning the idea inside out'-- I wonder if anyone has explored the mangling of LFO control waveforms via phase shifters? Seems an obvious idea but I don't recall trying it or reading about it. Run the stereotypical triangle or sawtooth LFO thru phase shifting, to scatter the harmonics. The altered modulation time patterns might be interesting. One could even feed the LFO waveform thru an auto- sweeping phase shifter so that the LFO wave shape would continually 'evolve'. James -- dupswapdrop -- the music-dsp mailing list and website: subscription info, FAQ, source code archive, list archive, book reviews, dsp links http://music.columbia.edu/cmc/music-dsp http://music.columbia.edu/mailman/listinfo/music-dsp |
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Re: What is the waveform with even harmonics calledEven there you certainly can't rely on names because what's offered as a
sawtooth in synths is quite often not a pure sawtooth, just something that sounds alike. > It's worth remembering that sometimes in sound synthesis > (and other engineering applications) it's the time domain > properties of a wave that we are really interested in. > > For example, as a control waveform (say the sawtooth/phasor > used as a display scanline) or if a sound synthesis design > despends upon subsequent non-linear stages (waveshaping). > In these cases we are interested in the shape, so classical > waveform names are really about naming the shape. > > a. > > > I don't see why waveforms would necessarily need a name. > > IMHO to generate any bandlimited (short) waveform efficiently, an inverse > FFT is really the best choice. These days it's very little CPU. > > Then once you have direct access to harmonics & phases, you forget > traditional (named) waveforms and you play with sound in a better way. > > > > > >> Hello, >> >> What is the name of the waveform which has even harmonics which fall >> off at 6dB/octave? >> >> By comparison: >> >> sawtooth wave = even + odd harmonics falling off at 6dB/octave >> square = odd harmonics falling off at 6dB/octave >> triangle wave = odd harmonics falling off at 12dB/octave >> >> You can see what it looks like using this matlab/octave code: >> >> # even wave >> N = 2000; >> t = ([0:1000] / 1000) * 4 * pi; >> f = zeros (1,1001); >> for k = [1,(1:2:N)+1] >> f = f + sin (k * t) / k; >> end >> f = f * 0.88678; >> plot(t,f) >> set(gca,'XTick',0:pi/2:4*pi) >> > set(gca,'XTickLabel',{'0','pi/2','pi','3pi/2','2pi','5pi/2','3pi','7pi/2','4pi'} > ) >> grid on >> axis normal >> >> Are there any nifty ways to generate this waveform efficiently? >> >> thanks! >> - jeremy >> -- >> dupswapdrop -- the music-dsp mailing list and website: >> subscription info, FAQ, source code archive, list archive, book reviews, >> dsp links >> http://music.columbia.edu/cmc/music-dsp >> http://music.columbia.edu/mailman/listinfo/music-dsp > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 8.5.364 / Virus Database: 270.12.70/2177 - Release Date: 06/15/09 > 05:54:00 > > -- > dupswapdrop -- the music-dsp mailing list and website: > subscription info, FAQ, source code archive, list archive, book reviews, > dsp > links > http://music.columbia.edu/cmc/music-dsp > http://music.columbia.edu/mailman/listinfo/music-dsp > -- > dupswapdrop -- the music-dsp mailing list and website: > subscription info, FAQ, source code archive, list archive, book reviews, > dsp links > http://music.columbia.edu/cmc/music-dsp > http://music.columbia.edu/mailman/listinfo/music-dsp -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.364 / Virus Database: 270.12.76/2183 - Release Date: 06/17/09 05:53:00 -- dupswapdrop -- the music-dsp mailing list and website: subscription info, FAQ, source code archive, list archive, book reviews, dsp links http://music.columbia.edu/cmc/music-dsp http://music.columbia.edu/mailman/listinfo/music-dsp |
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Re: What is the waveform with even harmonics calledSo, in summary,
At first it seems unusual that we have names for simply defined wave forms such as: sawtooth wave = even + odd harmonics falling off at 6dB/octave square = odd harmonics falling off at 6dB/octave triangle wave = odd harmonics falling off at 12dB/octave But that we don't have a counterpart to square and triangle for even harmonics. But, upon further examination it makes more sense. The above waveforms (as well as sine) 1. sound fairly distinct 2. are close to other fairly primative shapes (squares, triangles, circles) 2. are not trivially generated by simple additions of two existing waveforms (ie, not easy to create on a two oscillator synth) The waveform with even harmonics falling off at 6dB/octave has none of these properties: 1. it sounds like a sawtooth with a sine-wave sub-osc an octave down 2. it looks really funny 3. it is trivial to recreate using a normal two oscilator synth And, in fact, when creating the matlab code, my code initially had a bug where it did not include the 'fundamental' frequency, and so I just got out a sawtooth wave. :p As for wanting a name -- it makes it easier to search on google for a waveform that has a name versus one that does not. But, in this case, it seems like a very uninteresting waveform anyway. I was curious about it, because I have seen many people claim that people prefer distortion that provides even order harmonics instead of odd order harmonics. So, it seemed amiss that there was not a common waveform with only even order harmonics... (Actually, I did create a different wave with even order harmonics -- namely the fully-rectified sine wave). Thanks! - jeremy -- dupswapdrop -- the music-dsp mailing list and website: subscription info, FAQ, source code archive, list archive, book reviews, dsp links http://music.columbia.edu/cmc/music-dsp http://music.columbia.edu/mailman/listinfo/music-dsp |
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Re: What is the waveform with even harmonics called> So, in summary, > > At first it seems unusual that we have names for simply defined wave forms > such as: > > sawtooth wave = even + odd harmonics falling off at 6dB/octave > square = odd harmonics falling off at 6dB/octave > triangle wave = odd harmonics falling off at 12dB/octave > > But that we don't have a counterpart to square and triangle for even > harmonics. But, upon further examination it makes more sense. The > above waveforms (as well as sine) > > 1. sound fairly distinct triangle isn't much interesting, sounds like a slighty saturated sine > 2. are close to other fairly primative shapes (squares, triangles, > circles) that's pretty much the only reason IMHO > 2. are not trivially generated by simple additions of two existing > waveforms (ie, not easy to create on a two oscillator synth) square can be computed out of saws > The waveform with even harmonics falling off at 6dB/octave has none of > these properties: > > 1. it sounds like a sawtooth with a sine-wave sub-osc an octave down > 2. it looks really funny > 3. it is trivial to recreate using a normal two oscilator synth > > And, in fact, when creating the matlab code, my code initially had a > bug where it did not include the 'fundamental' frequency, and so I > just got out a sawtooth wave. :p > > As for wanting a name -- it makes it easier to search on google for a > waveform that has a name versus one that does not. But, in this case, > it seems like a very uninteresting waveform anyway. > > I was curious about it, because I have seen many people claim that > people prefer distortion that provides even order harmonics instead of > odd order harmonics. So, it seemed amiss that there was not a common > waveform with only even order harmonics... > > (Actually, I did create a different wave with even order harmonics -- > namely the fully-rectified sine wave). > > Thanks! > - jeremy > > > > -- > dupswapdrop -- the music-dsp mailing list and website: > subscription info, FAQ, source code archive, list archive, book reviews, > dsp links > http://music.columbia.edu/cmc/music-dsp > http://music.columbia.edu/mailman/listinfo/music-dsp -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.364 / Virus Database: 270.12.77/2184 - Release Date: 06/17/09 17:55:00 -- dupswapdrop -- the music-dsp mailing list and website: subscription info, FAQ, source code archive, list archive, book reviews, dsp links http://music.columbia.edu/cmc/music-dsp http://music.columbia.edu/mailman/listinfo/music-dsp |
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Re: What is the waveform with even harmonics calledDidier Dambrin wrote:
.. > > triangle isn't much interesting, sounds like a slighty saturated sine > But useful: ~very~ important as a modulation source (LFO), and where (as with the other waveforms) the absence of wiggles may often be valuable musically. Waveforms are not just to be listened to directly. As control signals the geometric waveforms have a key role, while all manner of extended exotica (smoothly-varying random waveforms, self-modulated waveforms etc) also matter. Sometimes, classic geometric "perfection" is required; at other times the absence of predictability (or simply a more subtle organic quality) is sought. Richard Dobson -- dupswapdrop -- the music-dsp mailing list and website: subscription info, FAQ, source code archive, list archive, book reviews, dsp links http://music.columbia.edu/cmc/music-dsp http://music.columbia.edu/mailman/listinfo/music-dsp |
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Re: What is the waveform with even harmonics calledYes but as LFO or for other purpose we're talking about something else, you
wouldn't want to generate them bandlimited in those cases. Same for FM modulators. >> triangle isn't much interesting, sounds like a slighty saturated sine >> > > > But useful: ~very~ important as a modulation source (LFO), and where (as > with the other waveforms) the absence of wiggles may often be valuable > musically. Waveforms are not just to be listened to directly. As control > signals the geometric waveforms have a key role, while all manner of > extended exotica (smoothly-varying random waveforms, self-modulated > waveforms etc) also matter. Sometimes, classic geometric "perfection" is > required; at other times the absence of predictability (or simply a more > subtle organic quality) is sought. > > Richard Dobson > > > > > -- > dupswapdrop -- the music-dsp mailing list and website: > subscription info, FAQ, source code archive, list archive, book reviews, > dsp links > http://music.columbia.edu/cmc/music-dsp > http://music.columbia.edu/mailman/listinfo/music-dsp -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.364 / Virus Database: 270.12.77/2184 - Release Date: 06/17/09 17:55:00 -- dupswapdrop -- the music-dsp mailing list and website: subscription info, FAQ, source code archive, list archive, book reviews, dsp links http://music.columbia.edu/cmc/music-dsp http://music.columbia.edu/mailman/listinfo/music-dsp |
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Re: What is the waveform with even harmonics calledThis thread got me playing with waveforms and I got to looking at a
square wave sum( sin(2pi n x)/n , n=1,3,5... ) but with the sine->cosine sum( cos(2pi n x)/n , n=1,3,5... ) effectively, a 90 degree or pi/2 radian phase shift of each term. This should be a "sound alike" waveform for a square wave. You get a waveform that diverges that looks a little like this: . | | . | | | | ./ \ / \ .------------------------ . \ / \ / . | | | | . | | and managed to calculate a closed form for it: ln((1+cos(2 pi x))/(1-cos(2 pi x)) (Does this waveform have a name? If not I suggest L7 :-) Clearly, going from a bounded signal to an unbounded signal isn't very useful, but it does suggest one question, is it possible to go the other way? Are there bounded sound-alikes for impulse or other unbounded waveforms? It seems /possible/ that if you re-arrange the phases of the sine waves that make up any signal of finite power that you should be able to create a bounded signal. This could be useful since for a naive digital aproximate impulse (one or the max value for the 1st sample of a period, zero for all others) there isn't much power in the wavefrom since it is zero most of the time, while no other waveform of the same peak value can have more power than a square wave, so you might be able to pack more power in a "sound alike" waveform. For example, for a band limited triangle like sum( cos(2pi n x)/n^2 , n=1,2,3 ) you can reduce the peak value a bit by turning the last term over: sum( cos(2pi n x)/n^2 , n=1,2 )-cos(2pi 3 x)/9 without changing the sound (if there is no wave shaping down the line!) so you could multiply it by G>1 and keep the same max amplitude for a little more power. CR -- dupswapdrop -- the music-dsp mailing list and website: subscription info, FAQ, source code archive, list archive, book reviews, dsp links http://music.columbia.edu/cmc/music-dsp http://music.columbia.edu/mailman/listinfo/music-dsp |
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Re: What is the waveform with even harmonics calledJust thought of an amusing class of "sound alikes" A square wave of
frequncy omega and a sawtooth of freq 2 omega, (both the same amplitude, one synced so one makes a -1 to 1 transition while the other goes 1 to -1) add to a sawtooth of freqency of omega, but, since they have no partials in common, we can add them in any (fixed) phase relation and have a waveform that can look quite a bit different yet sound the same. CR -- dupswapdrop -- the music-dsp mailing list and website: subscription info, FAQ, source code archive, list archive, book reviews, dsp links http://music.columbia.edu/cmc/music-dsp http://music.columbia.edu/mailman/listinfo/music-dsp |
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Re: What is the waveform with even harmonics calledspambait1000006@... wrote:
> ln((1+cos(2 pi x))/(1-cos(2 pi x)) > (Does this waveform have a name? If not I suggest L7 :-) Depending on the richness of your taxonomic system, "arctanh-waveshaped cosine" may count as a name ;) Martin -- dupswapdrop -- the music-dsp mailing list and website: subscription info, FAQ, source code archive, list archive, book reviews, dsp links http://music.columbia.edu/cmc/music-dsp http://music.columbia.edu/mailman/listinfo/music-dsp |
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RE: What is the waveform with even harmonics called> Clearly, going from a bounded signal to an unbounded signal isn't > very useful, but it does suggest one question, is it possible to go > the other way? Are there bounded sound-alikes for impulse or other > unbounded waveforms? It seems /possible/ that if you re-arrange the > phases of the sine waves that make up any signal of finite power that > you should be able to create a bounded signal. I think for an impulse you'd want a chirp signal, though this might sound a bit odd at low frequencies. A similar "odd impulse" waveform would also be useful. _________________________________________________________________ Insert movie times and more without leaving Hotmail®. http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/QuickAdd?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_QuickAdd_062009-- dupswapdrop -- the music-dsp mailing list and website: subscription info, FAQ, source code archive, list archive, book reviews, dsp links http://music.columbia.edu/cmc/music-dsp http://music.columbia.edu/mailman/listinfo/music-dsp |
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RE: What is the waveform with even harmonics calledOn Thu, 9 Jul 2009, Scott Nordlund wrote:
> A similar "odd impulse" waveform would also be useful. odd/even odd or odd-ball odd? anyway, a band limited impulse wave sum( cos(2*n*pi*x), n=1..m) = -1/2 + sin((2*n+1)*x)/sin(pi*x) and similarly a band limited "gnomeulse" wave sum( sin(2*n*pi*x), n=1..m) = [ cos(pi*x) - cos(pi*(2*n+1)*x)]/sin(pi*x) which for m=4 is about 20% shorter but would require one more lookup or calculatin of a cosine and should integrate up to the L7 wave (Martin: mostly the name was to have something to call it in my notes and as a joke, but I think L7 would look better on a button than arctanh-waveshaped cosine anyway :-) CR -- dupswapdrop -- the music-dsp mailing list and website: subscription info, FAQ, source code archive, list archive, book reviews, dsp links http://music.columbia.edu/cmc/music-dsp http://music.columbia.edu/mailman/listinfo/music-dsp |
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