When you needed newer software than Sid/Backports provide...

[Akira Kitada]

Hi list,
I use Lenny for my workstation, where I try new cutting-edge software.
I picked Lenny over Squeeze or Sid because of the following reasons.
- The stability. The machine is accessed from the internet
- Squeeze and Sid moves so quickly and breaks things frequently
- Even Sid isn't always new enough for everything I need.

My solution for this is easy and typical. Building from source and put
it on /usr/local.
That way, I can keep stable system while using the latest software.
However, it didn't take so long to make /usr/local a mess.
There's no easy way to track what I've installed because they're
installed manually.
It'd be nice if I could manage those software with apt but I suppose
that might conflicts with ones Lenny provides.

So here's my question. How can you manage new softwares while keeping
the system stable?
Using packages from backports.org or Sid? Do you build .deb packages yourself?
Can you keep the Lenny's intact?

Any tips or suggestions would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance


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[Andrew Reid-4]

On Tuesday 07 July 2009 19:07:32 Akira Kitada wrote:

> My solution for this is easy and typical. Building from source and put
> it on /usr/local.
> That way, I can keep stable system while using the latest software.
> However, it didn't take so long to make /usr/local a mess.
> There's no easy way to track what I've installed because they're
> installed manually.
> It'd be nice if I could manage those software with apt but I suppose
> that might conflicts with ones Lenny provides.
>
> So here's my question. How can you manage new softwares while keeping
> the system stable?

 
  Use stow.

  Make a directory, /usr/local/stow, and build your software
into subdirectories, using "config --prefix=/usr/local/stow/packagename"

  Then do make, make install, as usual, and then go to /usr/local/stow
and do "stow packagename".
 
  What this does is create symlinks in /usr/local that point to the
files in /usr/local/stow/<package>.  You don't have to edit paths,
everything stays POSIXly-correct, but you can remove packages by
doing "stow -D", and you can always tell where a file came from
by looking at the real location -- built software remains organized
by package subdirectories.

  It's not a panacea, some build schemes are not stow-friendly,
but generally if it would work in /usr/local, it'll work with stow.

                                -- A.
--
Andrew Reid / reidac@...


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[Rob Owens-2]

On Wed, Jul 08, 2009 at 08:07:32AM +0900, Akira Kitada wrote:

> Hi list,
> I use Lenny for my workstation, where I try new cutting-edge software.
> I picked Lenny over Squeeze or Sid because of the following reasons.
> - The stability. The machine is accessed from the internet
> - Squeeze and Sid moves so quickly and breaks things frequently
> - Even Sid isn't always new enough for everything I need.
>
> My solution for this is easy and typical. Building from source and put
> it on /usr/local.
> That way, I can keep stable system while using the latest software.
> However, it didn't take so long to make /usr/local a mess.
> There's no easy way to track what I've installed because they're
> installed manually.
> It'd be nice if I could manage those software with apt but I suppose
> that might conflicts with ones Lenny provides.
>
> So here's my question. How can you manage new softwares while keeping
> the system stable?
> Using packages from backports.org or Sid? Do you build .deb packages yourself?
> Can you keep the Lenny's intact?
>
> Any tips or suggestions would be appreciated.
>

You could use checkinstall to make simple deb packages (with no "intelligence" about dependencies, though).  This way you can uninstall it with apt or dpkg.

./configure
make
checkinstall

(you'll need to install the 'checkinstall' package first)

-Rob


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[Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.-3]

In <90bb445a0907071607k26d7720fwf19c65e91c501fcd@...>, Akira
Kitada wrote:

>Hi list,
>I use Lenny for my workstation, where I try new cutting-edge software.
>
>My solution for this is easy and typical. Building from source and put
>it on /usr/local.
>That way, I can keep stable system while using the latest software.
>However, it didn't take so long to make /usr/local a mess.
>There's no easy way to track what I've installed because they're
>installed manually.
>It'd be nice if I could manage those software with apt but I suppose
>that might conflicts with ones Lenny provides.
>
>So here's my question. How can you manage new softwares while keeping
>the system stable?
>Using packages from backports.org or Sid? Do you build .deb packages
> yourself? Can you keep the Lenny's intact?

http://www.iguanasuicide.net/node/4

You can choose the version from backports, testing, sid, or experimental
through the aptitude curses interface, or by using 'aptitude install -t
$release $packages' or 'aptitude install $package=$version'.

If Sid/experimental doesn't contain a new enough package for you, find it is
some other signed repository, add it to your sources.list, set a priority
(200 maybe?) for it, and add the signing key to your apt keychain.

If it isn't in any signed repository, just install a .deb using dpkg, or an
.rpm via alien.  If you *have* to compile to software yourself, roll your
own .deb; it's not that hard to make a minimal one so that the software can
be easily uninstalled and file conflicts can be detected.
--
Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.           ,= ,-_-. =.
bss@...             ((_/)o o(\_))
ICQ: 514984 YM/AIM: DaTwinkDaddy `-'(. .)`-'
http://iguanasuicide.net/            \_/

[Osamu Aoki]

Hi,

On Wed, Jul 08, 2009 at 10:41:44AM -0500, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote:

> In <90bb445a0907071607k26d7720fwf19c65e91c501fcd@...>, Akira
> Kitada wrote:
> >Hi list,
> >I use Lenny for my workstation, where I try new cutting-edge software.
> >
> >My solution for this is easy and typical. Building from source and put
> >it on /usr/local.
> >That way, I can keep stable system while using the latest software.
> >However, it didn't take so long to make /usr/local a mess.
> >There's no easy way to track what I've installed because they're
> >installed manually.
> >It'd be nice if I could manage those software with apt but I suppose
> >that might conflicts with ones Lenny provides.
> >
> >So here's my question. How can you manage new softwares while keeping
> >the system stable?
> >Using packages from backports.org or Sid? Do you build .deb packages
> > yourself? Can you keep the Lenny's intact?

Probably with backports.org, you are OK.
Usually not with Sid....
 
> http://www.iguanasuicide.net/node/4
>
> You can choose the version from backports, testing, sid, or experimental
> through the aptitude curses interface, or by using 'aptitude install -t
> $release $packages' or 'aptitude install $package=$version'.

"You can install a package" is different from "you can get reliable
system".  This type of reckless comment is dengerous as advise to
general publuc.  (Boyd knowing well, he may be OK) I was once reminden
by other DD when I made similar remarks...

> If Sid/experimental doesn't contain a new enough package for you, find it is
> some other signed repository, add it to your sources.list, set a priority
> (200 maybe?) for it, and add the signing key to your apt keychain.
>
> If it isn't in any signed repository, just install a .deb using dpkg, or an
> .rpm via alien.  If you *have* to compile to software yourself, roll your
> own .deb; it's not that hard to make a minimal one so that the software can
> be easily uninstalled and file conflicts can be detected.

Oh.... you are going too far.

http://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/debian-reference/ch02.en.html#_packages_from_mixed_source_of_archives
Caution
 Installing packages from mixed source of archives is not supported by
 the official Debian distribution except for officially supported
 particular combinations of archives such as stable with security updates
 and volatile updates.

Read more:
http://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/debian-reference/ch02.en.html


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[Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.-3]

In <20090708155214.GA5316@...>, Osamu Aoki wrote:

>On Wed, Jul 08, 2009 at 10:41:44AM -0500, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote:
>> In <90bb445a0907071607k26d7720fwf19c65e91c501fcd@...>, Akira
>> Kitada wrote:
>> >So here's my question. How can you manage new softwares while keeping
>> >the system stable?
>> >Using packages from backports.org or Sid? Do you build .deb packages
>> > yourself? Can you keep the Lenny's intact?
>
>Probably with backports.org, you are OK.
>Usually not with Sid....
>
>> http://www.iguanasuicide.net/node/4
>>
>> You can choose the version from backports, testing, sid, or experimental
>> through the aptitude curses interface, or by using 'aptitude install -t
>> $release $packages' or 'aptitude install $package=$version'.
>
>"You can install a package" is different from "you can get reliable
>system".  This type of reckless comment is dengerous as advise to
>general publuc.  (Boyd knowing well, he may be OK) I was once reminden
>by other DD when I made similar remarks...

It's true that a mixed system isn't completely supported.  However,
upgrading from oldstable to stable leaves you with a mixed system during
parts of the upgrade.  So, at the very least, packages in testing have to be
somewhat compatible with packages in stable.

The main difficulty I've encountered when running a mixed system is that
'aptitude safe-upgrade' and 'aptitude full-upgrade' often need more advice
as to what to install.  I found the aptitude curses UI quite valuable when
resolving those issues.  If you throw up your hands and mail the list as
soon as aptitude can't auto-resolve an installation/upgrade to your
satisfaction, a mixed system isn't for you.

>> If Sid/experimental doesn't contain a new enough package for you, find
>> it is some other signed repository, add it to your sources.list, set a
>> priority (200 maybe?) for it, and add the signing key to your apt
>> keychain.
>>
>> If it isn't in any signed repository, just install a .deb using dpkg, or
>> an .rpm via alien.  If you *have* to compile to software yourself, roll
>> your own .deb; it's not that hard to make a minimal one so that the
>> software can be easily uninstalled and file conflicts can be detected.
>
>Oh.... you are going too far.

The supported options are (a) don't install that software or (b) get that
software into Debian by becoming a Debian maintainer.  Some people
can't/won't take either of those options.

My advice is a third option.  It is not supported, but it works quite a bit
better than doing all the work of a package manager yourself.  Stow,
mentioned elsewhere in the thread, is also a great tool if there is no .deb
available, but it still leaves you having to fight with the ./configure &&
make process which is not *always* trivial.
--
Boyd Stephen Smith Jr.           ,= ,-_-. =.
bss@...             ((_/)o o(\_))
ICQ: 514984 YM/AIM: DaTwinkDaddy `-'(. .)`-'
http://iguanasuicide.net/            \_/

[Osamu Aoki]

Hi,

I appreciate Boyd's enthusiasm but I hope he will be a bit careful
checking facts and learn best practices.

On Wed, Jul 08, 2009 at 01:45:56PM -0500, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote:
> In <20090708155214.GA5316@...>, Osamu Aoki wrote:
> >On Wed, Jul 08, 2009 at 10:41:44AM -0500, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote:
> >> In <90bb445a0907071607k26d7720fwf19c65e91c501fcd@...>, Akira
> >> Kitada wrote:
> >> >So here's my question. How can you manage new softwares while keeping
> >> >the system stable?
> >> >Using packages from backports.org or Sid? Do you build .deb packages
> >> > yourself? Can you keep the Lenny's intact?
...

> >> You can choose the version from backports, testing, sid, or experimental
> >> through the aptitude curses interface, or by using 'aptitude install -t
> >> $release $packages' or 'aptitude install $package=$version'.
> >
> >"You can install a package" is different from "you can get reliable
> >system".  This type of reckless comment is dangerous as advise to
> >general public.  (Boyd knowing well, he may be OK) I was once reminded
> >by other DD when I made similar remarks...
>
> It's true that a mixed system isn't completely supported.  

This is important and there is reason for this :-)

> However, ...

I know it works mostly ... but this is not something novice user should
be casually advised to do without knowing how to judge when to do it.

> The main difficulty I've encountered when running a mixed system is that
> 'aptitude safe-upgrade' and 'aptitude full-upgrade' often need more advice
> as to what to install.  I found the aptitude curses UI quite valuable when
> resolving those issues.  If you throw up your hands and mail the list as
> soon as aptitude can't auto-resolve an installation/upgrade to your
> satisfaction, a mixed system isn't for you.

sigh ...  

> >> If Sid/experimental doesn't contain a new enough package for you, find
> >> it is some other signed repository, add it to your sources.list, set a
> >> priority (200 maybe?) for it, and add the signing key to your apt
> >> keychain.
> >>
> >> If it isn't in any signed repository, just install a .deb using dpkg, or
> >> an .rpm via alien.  If you *have* to compile to software yourself, roll
> >> your own .deb; it's not that hard to make a minimal one so that the
> >> software can be easily uninstalled and file conflicts can be detected.
> >
> >Oh.... you are going too far.
>
> The supported options are (a) don't install that software or (b) get that
> software into Debian by becoming a Debian maintainer.  Some people
> can't/won't take either of those options.

I do not share your idea .... there is many things you can do as non-DD
such as making private backports.  This is elaborated in my "Debian
Reference" if you ever cared to read.

> My advice is a third option.  It is not supported, but it works quite a bit
> better than doing all the work of a package manager yourself.  Stow,
> mentioned elsewhere in the thread, is also a great tool if there is no .deb
> available, but it still leaves you having to fight with the ./configure &&
> make process which is not *always* trivial.

I encourage much more careful approach to your system maintenance and
advise to others.  

Osamu

PS: Boyd seemed to suggest any signed archive can be used.  I hope he
will not find a malicious archive with a signature .... I know
installing malicious package can easily erase his system.  


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[Akira Kitada]

Hi,

I understand Aoki-san's concern.
There's no easy way to find out whether a package can be trusted or not.

I'd use stow for the moment. It would work for my purpose in most cases.
Someday I might like them to be packaged to deploy them in easy way.
Even in that case, I'd still keep those things away from official
system to avoid
them overwriting *stable* software. (/usr/local or the like)

Thank you

On Thu, Jul 9, 2009 at 11:48 PM, Osamu Aoki<osamu@...> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I appreciate Boyd's enthusiasm but I hope he will be a bit careful
> checking facts and learn best practices.
>
> On Wed, Jul 08, 2009 at 01:45:56PM -0500, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote:
>> In <20090708155214.GA5316@...>, Osamu Aoki wrote:
>> >On Wed, Jul 08, 2009 at 10:41:44AM -0500, Boyd Stephen Smith Jr. wrote:
>> >> In <90bb445a0907071607k26d7720fwf19c65e91c501fcd@...>, Akira
>> >> Kitada wrote:
>> >> >So here's my question. How can you manage new softwares while keeping
>> >> >the system stable?
>> >> >Using packages from backports.org or Sid? Do you build .deb packages
>> >> > yourself? Can you keep the Lenny's intact?
> ...
>> >> You can choose the version from backports, testing, sid, or experimental
>> >> through the aptitude curses interface, or by using 'aptitude install -t
>> >> $release $packages' or 'aptitude install $package=$version'.
>> >
>> >"You can install a package" is different from "you can get reliable
>> >system".  This type of reckless comment is dangerous as advise to
>> >general public.  (Boyd knowing well, he may be OK) I was once reminded
>> >by other DD when I made similar remarks...
>>
>> It's true that a mixed system isn't completely supported.
>
> This is important and there is reason for this :-)
>
>> However, ...
>
> I know it works mostly ... but this is not something novice user should
> be casually advised to do without knowing how to judge when to do it.
>
>> The main difficulty I've encountered when running a mixed system is that
>> 'aptitude safe-upgrade' and 'aptitude full-upgrade' often need more advice
>> as to what to install.  I found the aptitude curses UI quite valuable when
>> resolving those issues.  If you throw up your hands and mail the list as
>> soon as aptitude can't auto-resolve an installation/upgrade to your
>> satisfaction, a mixed system isn't for you.
>
> sigh ...
>
>> >> If Sid/experimental doesn't contain a new enough package for you, find
>> >> it is some other signed repository, add it to your sources.list, set a
>> >> priority (200 maybe?) for it, and add the signing key to your apt
>> >> keychain.
>> >>
>> >> If it isn't in any signed repository, just install a .deb using dpkg, or
>> >> an .rpm via alien.  If you *have* to compile to software yourself, roll
>> >> your own .deb; it's not that hard to make a minimal one so that the
>> >> software can be easily uninstalled and file conflicts can be detected.
>> >
>> >Oh.... you are going too far.
>>
>> The supported options are (a) don't install that software or (b) get that
>> software into Debian by becoming a Debian maintainer.  Some people
>> can't/won't take either of those options.
>
> I do not share your idea .... there is many things you can do as non-DD
> such as making private backports.  This is elaborated in my "Debian
> Reference" if you ever cared to read.
>
>> My advice is a third option.  It is not supported, but it works quite a bit
>> better than doing all the work of a package manager yourself.  Stow,
>> mentioned elsewhere in the thread, is also a great tool if there is no .deb
>> available, but it still leaves you having to fight with the ./configure &&
>> make process which is not *always* trivial.
>
> I encourage much more careful approach to your system maintenance and
> advise to others.
>
> Osamu
>
> PS: Boyd seemed to suggest any signed archive can be used.  I hope he
> will not find a malicious archive with a signature .... I know
> installing malicious package can easily erase his system.
>
>
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> To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-REQUEST@...
> with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@...
>
>

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