Why Never to Rename WikiDocs Pages

[DonRedman]

Crossposted to mb-experts for everybody's information

On Tue, 25 Apr 2006 01:42:27 +0200, Cristov Russell wrote:

> Is the statement that "WikiDocsPages must never be renamed" due solely  
> to the menu links? I'm asking because I realized that we already added  
> ModerationFAQ and AlbumLanguage to the transclusion table. We still can  
> remove them and add them back but I want to make sure that is the only  
> concern. Otherwise, we will need to coordinate name changes with server  
> releases I assume.

The reason is this:

Wiki docs works by transcluding revision n of wiki page PageName to the  
server. Further changes to the wiki page will not show on the server,  
because the transcluded revision is still there under a url like  
<http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/PageName?action=recall&rev=n>.

Now if you rename a wiki page using MoinMoin's "rename" feature, it  
*moves* the revision history from the old page name to the new page name.  
This is good regarding WikiNature, because it shows the whole history of  
the document at the place where people find and use it _now_ (i.e. the  
well intertwingled place :-) ).

For WikiDocs, however, this is deadly, because suddenly the url  
<http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/OldPageName?action=recall&rev=n> returns an  
error. The transclusion script has no idea that it should now request  
<http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/NewPageName?action=recall&rev=n>.

Therfore you must never rename WikiDocs pages using Moin's "rename"  
feature. In practice this should not be possible, since WikiDocsModerators  
put an ACL in WikiDocs pages that prevent deletion and renaming [1].

On the other hand, it is no problem, if you manually copy text from one  
page to the other, and rename all the links in the wiki to the new page.  
This does not affect WikiDocs at all (and this is the way we used to do it  
with UseMod [2]).


I hope this clarified the situation a bit. I know that I left the WikiDocs  
documentation is a terrible state. This and the StyleCouncil page are the  
first things I will do once I have finished moving.

   DonRedman


[1] Note that deleting a page does not affect WikiDocs, because MoinMoin  
keeps the history trail and just adds a current empty (0 byte) version on  
top. This way the wikidocked revision is still accessible to the  
transclusion mechanism.

[2] We also used and still use redirects a lot. Currently WikiDocs does  
not recognise redirects and issues a "This page does not exist" instead.  
It would be cool if Moin could be patched to speak standard HTTP (and  
reply with 302 or 303). If such a patch uses an option in the config file,  
it could proably even be submitted to the main Moin code. Keschte said,  
he'd have a look at it, but I don't know how far he got.


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[DonRedman]

On Tue, 25 Apr 2006 18:07:11 +0200, Alexander Dupuy wrote:
(his mail never reached mb-experts because he mistyped the address)

> Don Redman wrote:
>
>> Crossposted to mb-experts for everybody's information
>
> Thanks for this information - it's quite useful, and probably belongs on  
> the Wiki somewhere (perhaps you have already done so).  My internet link  
> is down at the moment that I am writing this, or I would check myself.
>
> Would it perhaps make sense to have a mb-wikidocs mailing list for the  
> wikidocs effort?  I suspect there's a bit of coordination that needs to  
> take place, and doing this in a more public way may create additional  
> interest in the project.  Alternately, we could just use mb-experts for  
> that purpose, at least for a short while.  And of course, there's the  
> WikiDocs wiki page, but e-mail is sometimes preferable for communication  
> of essential information.

I have been thinking about additional mailing lists a lot. This is a
domain where MuiscBrainz could use something with the flexibility of
forums. Now, don't misunderstand me. I don't want web forums, I am just
thinking out loud.

Let's just use mb-experts for now and make sure we have "WikiDocs" in the
subject. Ist that ok with the people here?

>> I hope this clarified the situation a bit. I know that I left the  
>> WikiDocs  documentation is a terrible state. This and the StyleCouncil  
>> page are the  first things I will do once I have finished moving.
>
>
> Although my ability to spend very much time on this effort is limited, I  
> would like to contribute to this effort - especially since I think that  
> the whole WikiDocs concept is a tremendous one, and I am excited to see  
> ideas from our long-ago discussions actually becoming a reality, as a  
> result of all of the effort by so many people.  I don't know whether it  
> is actually necessary to be a WikiTransclusion editor to contribute, but  
> if it would allow me to help in this process, I would be willing to take  
> on that responsibility.
>
> @alex
>

I would love that, if you'd help along. Especially since you were the one
who started the first effort of moving documentation into the wiki and
have a very profound knowledge of the MB wiki.
I think you should be able to contribute without being a
WikiDocsModerator. Right now the transclusion interface is not built for
collaborative work. I think it makes more sense to work on the wiki (like
fix everything around a certain subject so that it can fully replace the
static docs) and then file a ticket for Christov in which you list the
pages to be updated.

If we realise that we really need a collaborative transclusion interface,
then I'll send Robert some Hanuta to make him code it :-)

    DonRedman



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[Alexander Dupuy]

Don Redman wrote:

> Crossposted to mb-experts for everybody's information


Thanks for this information - it's quite useful, and probably belongs on
the Wiki somewhere (perhaps you have already done so).  My internet link
is down at the moment that I am writing this, or I would check myself.

Would it perhaps make sense to have a mb-wikidocs mailing list for the
wikidocs effort?  I suspect there's a bit of coordination that needs to
take place, and doing this in a more public way may create additional
interest in the project.  Alternately, we could just use mb-experts for
that purpose, at least for a short while.  And of course, there's the
WikiDocs wiki page, but e-mail is sometimes preferable for communication
of essential information.

> I hope this clarified the situation a bit. I know that I left the
> WikiDocs  documentation is a terrible state. This and the StyleCouncil
> page are the  first things I will do once I have finished moving.


Although my ability to spend very much time on this effort is limited, I
would like to contribute to this effort - especially since I think that
the whole WikiDocs concept is a tremendous one, and I am excited to see
ideas from our long-ago discussions actually becoming a reality, as a
result of all of the effort by so many people.  I don't know whether it
is actually necessary to be a WikiTransclusion editor to contribute, but
if it would allow me to help in this process, I would be willing to take
on that responsibility.

@alex

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[Jan van Thiel-2]

On 4/25/06, Don Redman <donredman@...> wrote:
> Right now the transclusion interface is not built for
> collaborative work. I think it makes more sense to work on the wiki (like
> fix everything around a certain subject so that it can fully replace the
> static docs) and then file a ticket for Christov in which you list the
> pages to be updated.

Is there a list available somewhere for pages that need 'cleaning up'?

--
Jan van Thiel

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[Cristov Russell]

> On 4/25/06, Don Redman <donredman@...> wrote:
> > Right now the transclusion interface is not built for collaborative
> > work. I think it makes more sense to work on the wiki (like fix
> > everything around a certain subject so that it can fully
> replace the
> > static docs) and then file a ticket for Christov in which
> you list the
> > pages to be updated.
>
> Is there a list available somewhere for pages that need 'cleaning up'?
>
> --
> Jan van Thiel

I'm glad you asked. I've started creating tickets in Trac so that as I get
volunteers I can start spreading out the work but feel free to reassign them
to yourself and work on them. The thing to remember though is to work from
the outside leaves (pages with fewer links) to the branches (pages with many
or critical links). For example, CategoryTerminology has a lot of pages.
These pages are fairly short but are linked to many pages. There should also
be fairly small amount of cleanup to these pages. At the other end of the
spectrum and of high priority are the Style pages which have tons of links
in them.

I've spent a good portion of the last few weeks just reading pages and
identifying soft spots (my day job is business process analyst ;-).

I think we need some better structure in the template pages. Areas like
headings (even the FAQ pages I did) are not consistent across page types.
Some of this is minor but tweaking things like this makes it easier for a
broader audience to be involved.

On the subject of Style pages I think it's time we consolidate some of the
categories. I don't see the point in having CategoryStyle and
CategoryOfficialStyle. We should stick to Official and Proposed and although
it's long do the same for the AR categories. I'd also like to make sure we
have descriptions for each category page that are clear; some of them could
use a little more explanation.

Lastly, I think we should add CategoryHowTo to the menus. A number of these
documents need a lot of polishing but I think they are invaluable to the
project.

Cristov (wolfsong)



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[DonRedman]

On Wed, 26 Apr 2006 04:06:56 +0200, Jan van Thiel wrote:

> On 4/25/06, Don Redman <donredman@...> wrote:
>> Right now the transclusion interface is not built for
>> collaborative work. I think it makes more sense to work on the wiki  
>> (like
>> fix everything around a certain subject so that it can fully replace the
>> static docs) and then file a ticket for Christov in which you list the
>> pages to be updated.
>
> Is there a list available somewhere for pages that need 'cleaning up'?

I have started a list on WikiDocsPage. This is based on Alex' work. The  
problem is taht
(a) this list is incomplete, and
(b) it lists the most important pages which are the *last* to be  
wikidockized (the "leaves first" principle  as Christov explained.

So this is not of much help.

I had alook at ModerationFAQ yesterday and found that a lot of the content  
is either outdated or a duplicate of another wiki page. These could be  
cleaned up in a way that they give just a short summary and then link to  
the respective wiki page.

If you do stuff like this you massively help the WikiDocs effort although  
you don't even touch the transclusion table. It's probably a good idea to  
talk to Chrstov before you start such a major cleanup (so that he can tell  
you about relevant other plans) and when you think you are done (so that  
he can update the transclusion table.

Such changes will rarely be limited to a single page, so it makes sense to  
create a ticket, assign it to you and add a list of the pages you touched*  
when you are done. Then you can reassign it to Christov and he will  
wikidocize your changes.
(but that's just a suggestion. ask him what he prefers)

* you can link to MBWiki:PageName from track

   DonRedman

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[keschte]

Hi,

Maybe another thread name would be in order for what you are discussing here
;-) I'll help out writing some documentation too, if you need me. But I've
done a lot of work to adjust the wiki to the new terminology, and I feel a
bit of kudos for this change would be in order. It sounds like I've created
more problems that I solved... What would you have done, moved forward using
the pagenames which have BadTerminology, and "because we never rename WD
pages", we would just leave it like that? So, if you need me I'd be glad to
help, but I certainly won't do it without getting the proper acknowledgement
for it.

Regards, Stefan


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[Cristov Russell]

I'm sorry if what I said came across as unappreciative; I only meant that I hadn't planned on it. I thought I mentioned to you in IRC that I felt it did need to be done and that I was glad you were able to take on such a huge task. Again, I didn't intend to convey that you made things worse only that making those changes caused a complication that we needed to look at how to solve. The impact was actually very small (2 pages) but I wanted to make sure I understood how to address it. The original email was a question I sent to DonRedman and Ruaok and DonRedman recognized aspects of the answer needed to be expressed to a larger audience.

I totally agree that deserver HUGE kudos for all the changes you made and if I had access to the blog I'd post a big thank you. I actually thought of that the day I noticed you making the changes but figured I'd wait until Ruaok returned to figure out how best to acknowledge you. Please don't get discouraged and stop now.

Cristov (wolfsong)

--- keschte@... wrote:

From: "Stefan Kestenholz" <keschte@...>
To: "'Discussions about the development of MusicBrainz for experiencedusers'" <musicbrainz-experts@...>
Subject: RE: [mb-experts] Why Never to Rename WikiDocs Pages
Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 14:58:05 +0200

Hi,

Maybe another thread name would be in order for what you are discussing here
;-) I'll help out writing some documentation too, if you need me. But I've
done a lot of work to adjust the wiki to the new terminology, and I feel a
bit of kudos for this change would be in order. It sounds like I've created
more problems that I solved... What would you have done, moved forward using
the pagenames which have BadTerminology, and "because we never rename WD
pages", we would just leave it like that? So, if you need me I'd be glad to
help, but I certainly won't do it without getting the proper acknowledgement
for it.

Regards, Stefan


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