Wiki in Foreign Languages
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Wiki in Foreign Languages
by Beth-2
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I am stepping out into a field I can’t help with, but,
it is seeming there is an increasing language barrier
developing, and it’s causing yet more frustration with new users. I would like to see what people think about doing some
translations/transliteration on some of the main fundamental wiki pages. Style guide, beginners guide, the basic how to documents,
the “common” error types. Part of this is watching albums going up in transliteration
form, yet the wiki docs are the fundamentals of how
to edit and begin to be an integral community member. Then watching a new user,
trying very hard to grasp the style guide we ask, yet having a language barrier
there to deal with. I know many of you are not speaking your native tongue when
you’re reading and speaking English, and I am not suggesting a full internationalilzation of musicbrainz,
but I am hoping maybe we could get the main pages so people could read them in
their native language. What do others think? Nyght aka Beth (Don, hope this went to the right discussion group.) _______________________________________________ Musicbrainz-experts mailing list Musicbrainz-experts@... http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-experts |
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Re: Wiki in Foreign Languages
by keschte
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> I know many of you are not speaking your native tongue when you're reading and speaking English, and I am not suggesting a full internationalilzation of musicbrainz, but I am hoping maybe we could get the main pages so people could read them in their native language.
generally, this is a great idea. i'm not sure though, if the wiki documents are ready for this step yet. may i ask where you noticed such language barrier problems, was it in the edit notes? i think until now, the documentation hasn't been linked from the main site well enough. the next server release will probably improve on this part, i'm not sure if its good enough yet. the point i try to make here, is that people who wheren't pointed to the documentation (even more important: information which is useful in the current context) have to know how a wiki works to get the facts. I feel the international versions of the pages now made into wikidocs still need more work, before translations should start. --keschte _______________________________________________ Musicbrainz-experts mailing list Musicbrainz-experts@... http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-experts |
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Re: Wiki in Foreign Languages
by Nikki-12
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On Wed, Jun 07, 2006 at 04:36:47AM -0600, Beth wrote:
> I would like to see what people think about doing some > translations/transliteration on some of the main fundamental wiki pages. > > Style guide, beginners guide, the basic how to documents, the "common" > error types. I don't have a problem with it (I know *I* appreciate anything in English when I'm browsing non-English sites ;)), although I'd prefer it if any translations have a notice saying that they might not be the most recent docs. I have to wonder how it will work though. Wikipedia has completely separate wikis for each language, but that would be complete overkill for us, I guess. We can't just translate the page name because some languages will share the same name. Subpages could work, I guess. --Nikki _______________________________________________ Musicbrainz-experts mailing list Musicbrainz-experts@... http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-experts |
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RE: Wiki in Foreign Languages
by Beth-2
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generally, this is a great idea. i'm not sure though, if the wiki documents are ready for this step yet. may i ask where you noticed such language barrier problems, was it in the edit notes? i think until now, the documentation hasn't been linked from the main site well enough. the next server release will probably improve on this part, i'm not sure if its good enough yet. the point i try to make here, is that people who wheren't pointed to the documentation (even more important: information which is useful in the current context) have to know how a wiki works to get the facts. I feel the international versions of the pages now made into wikidocs still need more work, before translations should start. --keschte [Nyght] I can see and appreciate that. Specifically it is with edits, why you're voting no on something. Trying to explain why something is not acceptable, and when referring to a link to style guide, it seems to help, but not to the point the novice user doesn't get frustrated anyways. Mainly things like feat, deleting your own mods. (I'm thinking of doing some picture captures of that, if that's okay?) I know I'm forgetting some of the major things. I'm not thinking very clearly today. :([/nyght] _______________________________________________ Musicbrainz-experts mailing list Musicbrainz-experts@... http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-experts |
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RE: Wiki in Foreign Languages
by Beth-2
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-----Original Message----- From: musicbrainz-experts-bounces@... [mailto:musicbrainz-experts-bounces@...] On Behalf Of Nikki Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2006 6:07 AM To: Discussions about the development of MusicBrainz for experienced users Subject: Re: [mb-experts] Wiki in Foreign Languages On Wed, Jun 07, 2006 at 04:36:47AM -0600, Beth wrote: > I would like to see what people think about doing some > translations/transliteration on some of the main fundamental wiki pages. > > Style guide, beginners guide, the basic how to documents, the "common" > error types. I don't have a problem with it (I know *I* appreciate anything in English when I'm browsing non-English sites ;)), although I'd prefer it if any translations have a notice saying that they might not be the most recent docs. I have to wonder how it will work though. Wikipedia has completely separate wikis for each language, but that would be complete overkill for us, I guess. We can't just translate the page name because some languages will share the same name. Subpages could work, I guess. --Nikki [Nyght] Unfortunately Nikki, I am really naïve on this one. Normally I offer suggestions I can give a lot of helpful advice, or offer to do things with the shift. This time I just see a need for something and am submitting it to those who are by far more knowledgeable than I am in this arena, wiki as well as other languages. I will be looking over my votes (If I can ever get them to not give me a 502 error), to try and pinpoint better what seems to be the most needed.[/Nyght] _______________________________________________ Musicbrainz-experts mailing list Musicbrainz-experts@... http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-experts _______________________________________________ Musicbrainz-experts mailing list Musicbrainz-experts@... http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-experts |
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Re: Wiki in Foreign Languages
by keschte
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i have taken the opportunity to test some things, hope the following
results make sense to you: ----- * from my POV, subpages would be the way to go. These pages wouldn't have to intertwingled again, because the international version does the job already. a downside to that approach is that a user cannot browse the wiki in their language, because they see the international version of the page first after navigating to a different page. having a fully internationalized version would require a duplicate wiki, like nikki said in her previous message. * wikidocs supports child pages (of course none exist yet: http://test.musicbrainz.org/doc/StyleGuideline/DE) * We'll have to create a way to list alternate langauge versions of the page somewhere on top of the page, for example on: http://test.musicbrainz.org/doc/StyleGuideline. This should work for wikidocs, as well as the wiki. * i've added support for wiki syntax (the same way annotations support wiki) to the moderation notes. its useful for adding links to wikipages, one does not have to paste whole URLs, but only the name of the page (if it is in camelcase) it seems however that currently, links to child pages are not supported: http://test.musicbrainz.org/show/edit/?editid=3888778 -- keschte _______________________________________________ Musicbrainz-experts mailing list Musicbrainz-experts@... http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-experts |
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RE: Wiki in Foreign Languages
by Beth-2
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I think the child pages are working, I am getting that it doesn't exist on
the server from your link in email as well. It looks great! Seems like a way to start trying to get some form of native language documentation. -----Original Message----- From: musicbrainz-experts-bounces@... [mailto:musicbrainz-experts-bounces@...] On Behalf Of Stefan Kestenholz Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2006 7:28 AM To: Discussions about the development of MusicBrainz for experienced users Subject: Re: [mb-experts] Wiki in Foreign Languages i have taken the opportunity to test some things, hope the following results make sense to you: ----- * from my POV, subpages would be the way to go. These pages wouldn't have to intertwingled again, because the international version does the job already. a downside to that approach is that a user cannot browse the wiki in their language, because they see the international version of the page first after navigating to a different page. having a fully internationalized version would require a duplicate wiki, like nikki said in her previous message. * wikidocs supports child pages (of course none exist yet: http://test.musicbrainz.org/doc/StyleGuideline/DE) * We'll have to create a way to list alternate langauge versions of the page somewhere on top of the page, for example on: http://test.musicbrainz.org/doc/StyleGuideline. This should work for wikidocs, as well as the wiki. * i've added support for wiki syntax (the same way annotations support wiki) to the moderation notes. its useful for adding links to wikipages, one does not have to paste whole URLs, but only the name of the page (if it is in camelcase) it seems however that currently, links to child pages are not supported: http://test.musicbrainz.org/show/edit/?editid=3888778 -- keschte _______________________________________________ Musicbrainz-experts mailing list Musicbrainz-experts@... http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-experts _______________________________________________ Musicbrainz-experts mailing list Musicbrainz-experts@... http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-experts |
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Re: Wiki in Foreign Languages
by Nikki-12
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On Wed, Jun 07, 2006 at 03:27:41PM +0200, Stefan Kestenholz wrote:
> * from my POV, subpages would be the way to go. These pages wouldn't > have to intertwingled again, because the international version does the > job already. a downside to that approach is that a user cannot browse the > wiki in their language, It would work if links were created to the subpages rather than the main wiki page, but that would mean manually linking them. Personally I wish we did that anyway. --Nikki _______________________________________________ Musicbrainz-experts mailing list Musicbrainz-experts@... http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-experts |
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Re: Wiki in Foreign Languages
by Nikki-12
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On Wed, Jun 07, 2006 at 06:42:41AM -0700, Cristov Russell wrote:
> Is this live or in the next release? Next release. --Nikki _______________________________________________ Musicbrainz-experts mailing list Musicbrainz-experts@... http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-experts |
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Re: Wiki in Foreign Languages
by DonRedman
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On Wed, 07 Jun 2006 15:27:41 +0200, Stefan Kestenholz wrote:
> i have taken the opportunity to test some things, hope the following > results make sense to you: > ----- > * from my POV, subpages would be the way to go. MoinMoin has a pretty extensive support of different languages. see http://moinmoin.wikiwikiweb.de/MultipleLanguagesSupport for details. This functionality should be used instead of a sub page hack. Moin allows you to define the language of a page in a metadata field, to search these fields, and to specify which page is a translation of which. It does not solve the problem of the same page name for different languages, but these should be few and IMO easy to solve. E.g. MusicBrainzForum would be the same if translated to german word by word. however, by using Human Intellect (TM), you could figure out that KommunikationsForum is a much better name. :-) Finally the Moin community itself uses different language pages in the same wiki. We should trust their experience. DonRedman -- Words that are written in CamelCase refer to WikiPages: Visit http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/ the best MusicBrainz documentation around! :-) _______________________________________________ Musicbrainz-experts mailing list Musicbrainz-experts@... http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-experts |
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Re: Wiki in Foreign Languages
by Alexander Dupuy
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Don Redman wrote:
> MoinMoin has a pretty extensive support of different languages. see > http://moinmoin.wikiwikiweb.de/MultipleLanguagesSupport for details. > This functionality should be used instead of a sub page hack. > Moin allows you to define the language of a page in a metadata field, > to search these fields, and to specify which page is a translation of > which. I agree. This may require some additional coding to work in the "right" way for WikiDocs, but it's the superior solution. > E.g. MusicBrainzForum would be the same if translated to german word > by word. however, by using Human Intellect (TM), you could figure out > that KommunikationsForum is a much better name. :-) There are also some different needs for good WikiNames in different languages. For example, a good rule in English is to use the singular form (MusicBrainzForum not MusicBrainzForums, even though there are several) since it is easy to pluralize by adding 's' or 'es'. In other languages, the tradeoffs are different, and it may not make sense to force things into singular. Additionally, it may be desirable for some languages to enforce a particular declension (nominative/dative/etc.) @alex _______________________________________________ Musicbrainz-experts mailing list Musicbrainz-experts@... http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-experts |
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Re: Wiki in Foreign Languages
by Nikki-12
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On Wed, Jun 07, 2006 at 07:24:41PM +0200, Don Redman wrote:
> and to specify which page is a translation of which. I couldn't find out how to do that. Where did you read about it? How is it done? --Nikki _______________________________________________ Musicbrainz-experts mailing list Musicbrainz-experts@... http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-experts |
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RE: Wiki in Foreign Languages
by keschte
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> MoinMoin has a pretty extensive support of different languages. see > http://moinmoin.wikiwikiweb.de/MultipleLanguagesSupport for > details. This > functionality should be used instead of a sub page hack. This page does not make much sense for me, can you point the interested readers to a wiki which uses this concept? As far as I understand Beths idea, the translated pages would be an <<addition>> to the existing style guidelines in the wiki, which are well structured and intertwingled. If you start creating a new set of pages with new names, it is a superior solution from a wiki POV, but the subpage hack (as you called it) would serve the purpose just as well (The goal is not to re-create the styleguidelines structure in new languages, but have the most important documents available in other languages too (do you remember the concept of release/track title needles on NadelnderBambus -- childpages would be a similar approach...) Another thing to consider is, that we could focus on implementing multi-language support from the wikidocs POV, having a sophisticated wiki navigation is less important, because as Beth suggested, these will be pages (the SGL, edit types) which are wikidocsed anyway, and users who are pointed towards the pages will not likely want to edit information, but study it. I imagine that wikidocs would take the childpages with links that point to the international pagenames, but if the linked page has a childpage in the given language, it could be automatically link to the right language. Wikidocs could be adapted to handle this without much coding if these childpages would be added to the index as well. The translated versions would use the international version of the name, e.g. PartNumberStyle instead of TeilNummerStil or whatever the new pagename would be in your suggested approach, but that will serve the purpose of helping people talk about the same StyleGuideline in any language, and will allow them to understand each other even if the language barrier is still there. --keschte _______________________________________________ Musicbrainz-experts mailing list Musicbrainz-experts@... http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-experts |
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Re: Wiki in Foreign Languages
by DonRedman
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On Wed, 07 Jun 2006 21:57:12 +0200, Nikki wrote:
> On Wed, Jun 07, 2006 at 07:24:41PM +0200, Don Redman wrote: >> and to specify which page is a translation of which. > > I couldn't find out how to do that. Where did you read about it? How is > it done? <http://moinmoin.wikiwikiweb.de/MultipleLanguagesSupport#head-5bff0ecf77993d5b299619f187293c3542e7c68d> But I suppose it is a 1.5 feature. Robert: I know from my own experience that updating from moin 1.3.5 upwards is *really* easy. Not at all the PITA that upgrading to 1.3.5 was. DonRedman -- Words that are written in CamelCase refer to WikiPages: Visit http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/ the best MusicBrainz documentation around! :-) _______________________________________________ Musicbrainz-experts mailing list Musicbrainz-experts@... http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-experts |
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Re: Wiki in Foreign Languages
by Nikki-12
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On Thu, Jun 08, 2006 at 12:37:11AM +0200, Don Redman wrote:
> >>and to specify which page is a translation of which. > > > >I couldn't find out how to do that. Where did you read about it? How is > >it done? > > <http://moinmoin.wikiwikiweb.de/MultipleLanguagesSupport#head-5bff0ecf77993d5b299619f187293c3542e7c68d> I still don't see how to specify which page is a translation of which. That section is about the user interface language and MoinMoin already does that. If I set my default browser language to Japanese, MoinMoin greets me with the user interface in Japanese. The content, however, is still in English. --Nikki _______________________________________________ Musicbrainz-experts mailing list Musicbrainz-experts@... http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-experts |
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Re: Wiki in Foreign Languages
by DonRedman
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On Wed, 07 Jun 2006 22:51:01 +0200, Stefan Kestenholz wrote:
>> MoinMoin has a pretty extensive support of different languages. see >> http://moinmoin.wikiwikiweb.de/MultipleLanguagesSupport for >> details. This functionality should be used instead of a sub page hack. > > This page does not make much sense for me, can you point the interested > readers to a wiki which uses this concept? As far as I understand Beths > idea, the translated pages would be an <<addition>> to the existing style > guidelines in the wiki, which are well structured and intertwingled. Erm. MoinMoin is one. Wikipedia is another (using different techniques but the same concept). The point is that all big wiki communities I know of agree that a translation should not be an addition to a primary language, but should get the freedom of following the logic of its own language. It needs this to be *alive*. "Alive" is no stupid metaphor, but _the_ essential concept of WikiNature IMVHO. > Another thing to consider is, that we could focus on implementing > multi-language support from the wikidocs POV, having a sophisticated wiki > navigation is less important, because as Beth suggested, these will be > pages (the SGL, edit types) which are wikidocsed anyway, and users who > are pointed towards the pages will not likely want to edit information, > but study it. This is not WikiDocs as I see it, and this is not the first time we seem to disagree on this. I maintain the point that a WikiDocsPage needs at first to be a living wiki page. Then you can wikidocsel the currently 'stable' revision of it. If the page is not alive, then I do not want it to become a WikiDocsPage. > I imagine that wikidocs would take the childpages with links that point > to the international pagenames, but if the linked page has a childpagein > the given language, it could be automatically link to the rightlanguage. But you can do the same thing using the features Moin offers you: Lookup the metadata tag as you lookup redirects and you know the language. Scan the LanguageDict pages and you know which page is a translation of which. DonRedman -- Words that are written in CamelCase refer to WikiPages: Visit http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/ the best MusicBrainz documentation around! :-) _______________________________________________ Musicbrainz-experts mailing list Musicbrainz-experts@... http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-experts |
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RE: Wiki in Foreign Languages
by Beth-2
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Keschte has the full of what I was suggesting... and I feel he summed it up
better than I could. The reason I proposed a partial transliteration, while the full documentation would be wonderful! There's a few concerns I see with it. First, I personally can't help, therefore I wouldn't ask that of any one person, or even two. Second, if we present full documentation I feel it will melt over into the database side of musicbrainz and people will begin to leave mod notes in their native tongue, which I feel will ultimately hurt MB more than it will help. This was ... more of an idea of a crutch. Something to let people learn quickly with, in a native fashion, and take to their editing while still realizing the main language MB works on is English. (even though more than a good amount of the core people speak German, if I'm not mistaken.) Nyght aka Beth -----Original Message----- From: musicbrainz-experts-bounces@... [mailto:musicbrainz-experts-bounces@...] On Behalf Of Stefan Kestenholz Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2006 2:51 PM To: 'Discussions about the development of MusicBrainz for experiencedusers' Subject: RE: [mb-experts] Wiki in Foreign Languages > MoinMoin has a pretty extensive support of different languages. see > http://moinmoin.wikiwikiweb.de/MultipleLanguagesSupport for > details. This > functionality should be used instead of a sub page hack. This page does not make much sense for me, can you point the interested readers to a wiki which uses this concept? As far as I understand Beths idea, the translated pages would be an <<addition>> to the existing style guidelines in the wiki, which are well structured and intertwingled. If you start creating a new set of pages with new names, it is a superior solution from a wiki POV, but the subpage hack (as you called it) would serve the purpose just as well (The goal is not to re-create the styleguidelines structure in new languages, but have the most important documents available in other languages too (do you remember the concept of release/track title needles on NadelnderBambus -- childpages would be a similar approach...) Another thing to consider is, that we could focus on implementing multi-language support from the wikidocs POV, having a sophisticated wiki navigation is less important, because as Beth suggested, these will be pages (the SGL, edit types) which are wikidocsed anyway, and users who are pointed towards the pages will not likely want to edit information, but study it. I imagine that wikidocs would take the childpages with links that point to the international pagenames, but if the linked page has a childpage in the given language, it could be automatically link to the right language. Wikidocs could be adapted to handle this without much coding if these childpages would be added to the index as well. The translated versions would use the international version of the name, e.g. PartNumberStyle instead of TeilNummerStil or whatever the new pagename would be in your suggested approach, but that will serve the purpose of helping people talk about the same StyleGuideline in any language, and will allow them to understand each other even if the language barrier is still there. --keschte _______________________________________________ Musicbrainz-experts mailing list Musicbrainz-experts@... http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-experts _______________________________________________ Musicbrainz-experts mailing list Musicbrainz-experts@... http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-experts |
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Re: Wiki in Foreign Languages
by keschte
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even after announced in IRC that i won't discuss this further, i still
have to... it seems that after working with wikidocs, i care more about it than to let such things go. * You, even if you work on social engineering should know that over-engineered might satisfy the one who creates them, but will ultimately fail in user acceptance. i'm quite certain than maintaining several structures would exactly be that - overengineered. we simply have not enough volounteers to maintain several wiki structures. the translation childnodes would be much easier to maintain. We could appoint maintainers for the pages, which should subscribe to the official page and update their version accordingly if the main one is modified. * Beth's second point of the previous mail goes into the same direction than i stated: We want people to talk about PartNumberStyle, because these english terms are well established and used in the edit notes. -- keschte _______________________________________________ Musicbrainz-experts mailing list Musicbrainz-experts@... http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-experts |
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