WordPress as CMS (was: wordpress security)

[Stephen Rider]

Note:  This email repeats a lot of things I said in another email, for  
the benefit of those who are not following the Security thread.  For  
those who *are* following that thread, please skim to the bottom, as I  
pose a new and separate question from the security issues discussed  
elsewhere....

On Oct 21, 2009, at 9:03 AM, Otto wrote:

> A site that the admin has not visited in 2 months is, IMO, a dead
> site. No new content, no readers, nobody caring for it...

In the past, I've asked for advice on using WordPress as a straight  
CMS rather than a blog platform.  Such questions are routinely  
answered with remarks along the lines of, "It is a CMS, Dummy."

Fine it's a CMS.  But as such we must accept that many users are using  
WordPress to set up their sites, and edit them when needed, but are  
NOT routinely adding new content, /a la/ a blog.  In such  
circumstances, a site can **easily** go two months without being  
updated.

I just don't understand this "screw 'em" attitude.  The attitude  
toward people asking about "WordPress as CMS" is widespread and  
wrongheaded (including coming from one developer with whom I've had a  
very friendly relationship.)  As long as the "blog post" aspect is  
front and center, people will -- legitimately -- consider it "blog  
software".

Personally I would love to see a plugin that entirely removes or  
conceals the post/comment areas of the admin, and I'm considering  
making one.

The Big Question:  What would a "CMS" plugin have to do?  Pots and  
comments are woven throughout the Admin, and I'd like to remove all  
aspects of them from the menus.  My "to do" list is below -- if I'm  
missing something, or if you have advice as to how to do some of this,  
I would appreciate.

        1) Remove "Posts" and "Comments" from main menu.  (Am I correct that  
direct links will still work?  Is there a way to remove those areas  
entirely rather than just hiding the menu items?)

        2) Remove "Recent Comments" and "QuickPress" from Dashboard.  (Again,  
can it be removed entirely or merely hidden?)

        3) Remove "Press This" from Tools page (how?)

        4) Writing Settings page -- remove/hide/turn off "Remote Publishing",  
"Post Via Email", and "Update Services" settings

        5) Reading Settings page -- remove "Front Page Displays" option.  Set  
it to "static page".  Still must allow user to set the static page  
though.

        (Since we're changing those two pages so much, perhaps remove them  
entirely and replace them with a new consolidated page?)

        6) Remove "Discussion" settings page entirely.  Set default  
preferences to no comments or notifications.

        7) Remove "Discussion" meta box from Edit Page page.

        8) Remove Tags/Categories from Permalink Settings page

Also, in general, I think WordPress itself should do a few things to  
lessen the "blog assumption".  Nothing major, but a few small things  
to consider:

        1) On General Settings page, change "Blog Title" and "Blog Address"  
to "Site Title" and "Site Address"

        2) Ditto "Privacy" page.  "Blog" s/b "Site"

Good idea?  Bad?  Discuss!

Stephen

--
Stephen Rider
http://striderweb.com/

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[Nathan Rice]

You're most likely about to be told either:

1) If you want a website CMS (non-blog) then try drupal/joomla/EE
2) If you MUST use WP as a site CMS (non-blog) just tell your client to
ignore the blog stuff.

Good luck.

FWIW, I like the idea of a lightweight plugin that does nothing but remove
all references to blog posts, comments, etc. I think it's a fine idea.

------------------
Nathan Rice
WordPress and Web Development
www.nathanrice.net | twitter.com/nathanrice | www.modthemes.com


On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 4:00 PM, Stephen Rider <wp-hackers@...>wrote:

> Note:  This email repeats a lot of things I said in another email, for the
> benefit of those who are not following the Security thread.  For those who
> *are* following that thread, please skim to the bottom, as I pose a new and
> separate question from the security issues discussed elsewhere....
>
> On Oct 21, 2009, at 9:03 AM, Otto wrote:
>
>  A site that the admin has not visited in 2 months is, IMO, a dead
>> site. No new content, no readers, nobody caring for it...
>>
>
> In the past, I've asked for advice on using WordPress as a straight CMS
> rather than a blog platform.  Such questions are routinely answered with
> remarks along the lines of, "It is a CMS, Dummy."
>
> Fine it's a CMS.  But as such we must accept that many users are using
> WordPress to set up their sites, and edit them when needed, but are NOT
> routinely adding new content, /a la/ a blog.  In such circumstances, a site
> can **easily** go two months without being updated.
>
> I just don't understand this "screw 'em" attitude.  The attitude toward
> people asking about "WordPress as CMS" is widespread and wrongheaded
> (including coming from one developer with whom I've had a very friendly
> relationship.)  As long as the "blog post" aspect is front and center,
> people will -- legitimately -- consider it "blog software".
>
> Personally I would love to see a plugin that entirely removes or conceals
> the post/comment areas of the admin, and I'm considering making one.
>
> The Big Question:  What would a "CMS" plugin have to do?  Pots and comments
> are woven throughout the Admin, and I'd like to remove all aspects of them
> from the menus.  My "to do" list is below -- if I'm missing something, or if
> you have advice as to how to do some of this, I would appreciate.
>
>        1) Remove "Posts" and "Comments" from main menu.  (Am I correct that
> direct links will still work?  Is there a way to remove those areas entirely
> rather than just hiding the menu items?)
>
>        2) Remove "Recent Comments" and "QuickPress" from Dashboard.
>  (Again, can it be removed entirely or merely hidden?)
>
>        3) Remove "Press This" from Tools page (how?)
>
>        4) Writing Settings page -- remove/hide/turn off "Remote
> Publishing", "Post Via Email", and "Update Services" settings
>
>        5) Reading Settings page -- remove "Front Page Displays" option.
>  Set it to "static page".  Still must allow user to set the static page
> though.
>
>        (Since we're changing those two pages so much, perhaps remove them
> entirely and replace them with a new consolidated page?)
>
>        6) Remove "Discussion" settings page entirely.  Set default
> preferences to no comments or notifications.
>
>        7) Remove "Discussion" meta box from Edit Page page.
>
>        8) Remove Tags/Categories from Permalink Settings page
>
> Also, in general, I think WordPress itself should do a few things to lessen
> the "blog assumption".  Nothing major, but a few small things to consider:
>
>        1) On General Settings page, change "Blog Title" and "Blog Address"
> to "Site Title" and "Site Address"
>
>        2) Ditto "Privacy" page.  "Blog" s/b "Site"
>
> Good idea?  Bad?  Discuss!
>
> Stephen
>
> --
> Stephen Rider
> http://striderweb.com/
>
> _______________________________________________
> wp-hackers mailing list
> wp-hackers@...
> http://lists.automattic.com/mailman/listinfo/wp-hackers
>

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[Steven Rossi]

Sounds great to me! If this hasn't been done before (which to my knowledge,
it hasn't), I can see a big market for it. I've been working towards using
Wordpress in development of more traditional (that is, non-blog) sites, and
it's hard to get around that blog stigma when working in a group environment
with Wordpress.

Perhaps my favorite suggestion in your email is the switch from Blog
Title/Blog Address to Site Title/Site Address. I've always been surprised
that the "Blog" terms have stuck around as long as they have. I'd be all for
a switch.

Steven Rossi
http://www.letsmovetothemoon.com
http://stevenjrossi.com
http://www.twitter.com/supermoonman

On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 3:00 PM, Stephen Rider <wp-hackers@...>wrote:

> Note:  This email repeats a lot of things I said in another email, for the
> benefit of those who are not following the Security thread.  For those who
> *are* following that thread, please skim to the bottom, as I pose a new and
> separate question from the security issues discussed elsewhere....
>
> On Oct 21, 2009, at 9:03 AM, Otto wrote:
>
>  A site that the admin has not visited in 2 months is, IMO, a dead
>> site. No new content, no readers, nobody caring for it...
>>
>
> In the past, I've asked for advice on using WordPress as a straight CMS
> rather than a blog platform.  Such questions are routinely answered with
> remarks along the lines of, "It is a CMS, Dummy."
>
> Fine it's a CMS.  But as such we must accept that many users are using
> WordPress to set up their sites, and edit them when needed, but are NOT
> routinely adding new content, /a la/ a blog.  In such circumstances, a site
> can **easily** go two months without being updated.
>
> I just don't understand this "screw 'em" attitude.  The attitude toward
> people asking about "WordPress as CMS" is widespread and wrongheaded
> (including coming from one developer with whom I've had a very friendly
> relationship.)  As long as the "blog post" aspect is front and center,
> people will -- legitimately -- consider it "blog software".
>
> Personally I would love to see a plugin that entirely removes or conceals
> the post/comment areas of the admin, and I'm considering making one.
>
> The Big Question:  What would a "CMS" plugin have to do?  Pots and comments
> are woven throughout the Admin, and I'd like to remove all aspects of them
> from the menus.  My "to do" list is below -- if I'm missing something, or if
> you have advice as to how to do some of this, I would appreciate.
>
>        1) Remove "Posts" and "Comments" from main menu.  (Am I correct that
> direct links will still work?  Is there a way to remove those areas entirely
> rather than just hiding the menu items?)
>
>        2) Remove "Recent Comments" and "QuickPress" from Dashboard.
>  (Again, can it be removed entirely or merely hidden?)
>
>        3) Remove "Press This" from Tools page (how?)
>
>        4) Writing Settings page -- remove/hide/turn off "Remote
> Publishing", "Post Via Email", and "Update Services" settings
>
>        5) Reading Settings page -- remove "Front Page Displays" option.
>  Set it to "static page".  Still must allow user to set the static page
> though.
>
>        (Since we're changing those two pages so much, perhaps remove them
> entirely and replace them with a new consolidated page?)
>
>        6) Remove "Discussion" settings page entirely.  Set default
> preferences to no comments or notifications.
>
>        7) Remove "Discussion" meta box from Edit Page page.
>
>        8) Remove Tags/Categories from Permalink Settings page
>
> Also, in general, I think WordPress itself should do a few things to lessen
> the "blog assumption".  Nothing major, but a few small things to consider:
>
>        1) On General Settings page, change "Blog Title" and "Blog Address"
> to "Site Title" and "Site Address"
>
>        2) Ditto "Privacy" page.  "Blog" s/b "Site"
>
> Good idea?  Bad?  Discuss!
>
> Stephen
>
> --
> Stephen Rider
> http://striderweb.com/
>
> _______________________________________________
> wp-hackers mailing list
> wp-hackers@...
> http://lists.automattic.com/mailman/listinfo/wp-hackers
>

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wp-hackers@...
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[Stephen Rider]

[edited for clarity]
Note:  This email repeats a lot of things I said in another email, for  
the benefit of those who are not following the Security thread.  For  
those who *are* following that thread, please skim to the bottom, as I  
pose a new and separate question from the security issues discussed  
elsewhere....

---
In the past, I've asked for advice on using WordPress as a straight  
CMS rather than a blog platform.  Such questions are routinely  
answered with remarks along the lines of, "It is a CMS, Dummy."

Fine it's a CMS.  But I just don't understand this attitude toward  
people asking about "WordPress as CMS" -- it's widespread and  
wrongheaded (including coming from one developer with whom I've had a  
very friendly relationship.)  As long as the "blog post" aspect is  
front and center, people will -- legitimately -- consider it "blog  
software".

Personally I would love to see a plugin that entirely removes or  
conceals the post/comment areas of the admin, and I'm considering  
making one.

The Big Question:  What would a "CMS" plugin have to do?  Posts and  
comments are woven throughout the Admin, and I'd like to remove all  
aspects of them from the menus.  My "to do" list is below -- if I'm  
missing something, or if you have advice as to how to do some of this,  
I would appreciate.

        1) Remove "Posts" and "Comments" from main menu.  (Am I correct that  
direct links will still work?  Is there a way to remove those areas  
entirely rather than just hiding the menu items?)

        2) Remove "Recent Comments" and "QuickPress" from Dashboard.  (Again,  
can it be removed entirely or merely hidden?)

        3) Remove "Press This" from Tools page (how?)

        4) Writing Settings page -- remove/hide/turn off "Remote Publishing",  
"Post Via Email", and "Update Services" settings

        5) Reading Settings page -- remove "Front Page Displays" option.  Set  
it to "static page".  Still must allow user to set the static page  
though.

        (Since we're changing those two pages so much, perhaps remove them  
entirely and replace them with a new consolidated page?)

        6) Remove "Discussion" settings page entirely.  Set default  
preferences to no comments or notifications.

        7) Remove "Discussion" meta box from Edit Page page.

        8) Remove Tags/Categories from Permalink Settings page

Also, in general, I think WordPress itself should do a few things to  
lessen the "blog assumption".  Nothing major, but a few small things  
to consider:

        1) On General Settings page, change "Blog Title" and "Blog Address"  
to "Site Title" and "Site Address"

        2) Ditto "Privacy" page.  "Blog" s/b "Site"

Good idea?  Bad?  Discuss!

Stephen

--
Stephen Rider
http://striderweb.com/

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[Mike Schinkel-5]

> You're most likely about to be told either:
>
> 1) If you want a website CMS (non-blog) then try drupal/joomla/EE
> 2) If you MUST use WP as a site CMS (non-blog) just tell your client  
> to
> ignore the blog stuff.

You are probably right. And if you are, it's a real damn shame.

> FWIW, I like the idea of a lightweight plugin that does nothing but  
> remove
> all references to blog posts, comments, etc. I think it's a fine idea.

I too really want to use WordPress as a CMS first and a blogging tool  
second. I run into 5 people who want the former for every one who  
wants the latter.

-Mike Schinkel
WordPress Custom Plugins
http://mikeschinkel.com/custom-wordpress-plugins/




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[Stephen Rider]

On Oct 21, 2009, at 3:06 PM, Steven Rossi wrote:

> it's hard to get around that blog stigma when working in a group  
> environment
> with Wordpress.
>
> Perhaps my favorite suggestion in your email is the switch from Blog
> Title/Blog Address to Site Title/Site Address. I've always been  
> surprised
> that the "Blog" terms have stuck around as long as they have. I'd be  
> all for
> a switch.

Heh.  At least the software isn't called "BlogPress".  Then we'd  
really be screwed.  ("Hey, I think we should change the name of the  
entire platform!" ;-) )
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[Olumide Alabi]

I feel Steven Rossi and where he's coming from. I'm not sure how difficult it would be to pull off or what will be affected by implementing what I'm about to suggest but here goes.

What if the during the install, the page that asks for Blog Title has 2 radio buttons that allow you choose whether you want to use the current install as a blog or a non-blog website and then hides/disables/removes ( whatever the best thing would be) all superfluous elements.

Just my 2 cents.

Best Regards,
Luminus.
Sent from my BlackBerry® smartphone from Zain Nigeria

-----Original Message-----
From: Steven Rossi <SuperMoonMan@...>
Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 15:06:29
To: <wp-hackers@...>
Subject: Re: [wp-hackers] WordPress as CMS (was: wordpress security)

Sounds great to me! If this hasn't been done before (which to my knowledge,
it hasn't), I can see a big market for it. I've been working towards using
Wordpress in development of more traditional (that is, non-blog) sites, and
it's hard to get around that blog stigma when working in a group environment
with Wordpress.

Perhaps my favorite suggestion in your email is the switch from Blog
Title/Blog Address to Site Title/Site Address. I've always been surprised
that the "Blog" terms have stuck around as long as they have. I'd be all for
a switch.

Steven Rossi
http://www.letsmovetothemoon.com
http://stevenjrossi.com
http://www.twitter.com/supermoonman

On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 3:00 PM, Stephen Rider <wp-hackers@...>wrote:

> Note:  This email repeats a lot of things I said in another email, for the
> benefit of those who are not following the Security thread.  For those who
> *are* following that thread, please skim to the bottom, as I pose a new and
> separate question from the security issues discussed elsewhere....
>
> On Oct 21, 2009, at 9:03 AM, Otto wrote:
>
>  A site that the admin has not visited in 2 months is, IMO, a dead
>> site. No new content, no readers, nobody caring for it...
>>
>
> In the past, I've asked for advice on using WordPress as a straight CMS
> rather than a blog platform.  Such questions are routinely answered with
> remarks along the lines of, "It is a CMS, Dummy."
>
> Fine it's a CMS.  But as such we must accept that many users are using
> WordPress to set up their sites, and edit them when needed, but are NOT
> routinely adding new content, /a la/ a blog.  In such circumstances, a site
> can **easily** go two months without being updated.
>
> I just don't understand this "screw 'em" attitude.  The attitude toward
> people asking about "WordPress as CMS" is widespread and wrongheaded
> (including coming from one developer with whom I've had a very friendly
> relationship.)  As long as the "blog post" aspect is front and center,
> people will -- legitimately -- consider it "blog software".
>
> Personally I would love to see a plugin that entirely removes or conceals
> the post/comment areas of the admin, and I'm considering making one.
>
> The Big Question:  What would a "CMS" plugin have to do?  Pots and comments
> are woven throughout the Admin, and I'd like to remove all aspects of them
> from the menus.  My "to do" list is below -- if I'm missing something, or if
> you have advice as to how to do some of this, I would appreciate.
>
>        1) Remove "Posts" and "Comments" from main menu.  (Am I correct that
> direct links will still work?  Is there a way to remove those areas entirely
> rather than just hiding the menu items?)
>
>        2) Remove "Recent Comments" and "QuickPress" from Dashboard.
>  (Again, can it be removed entirely or merely hidden?)
>
>        3) Remove "Press This" from Tools page (how?)
>
>        4) Writing Settings page -- remove/hide/turn off "Remote
> Publishing", "Post Via Email", and "Update Services" settings
>
>        5) Reading Settings page -- remove "Front Page Displays" option.
>  Set it to "static page".  Still must allow user to set the static page
> though.
>
>        (Since we're changing those two pages so much, perhaps remove them
> entirely and replace them with a new consolidated page?)
>
>        6) Remove "Discussion" settings page entirely.  Set default
> preferences to no comments or notifications.
>
>        7) Remove "Discussion" meta box from Edit Page page.
>
>        8) Remove Tags/Categories from Permalink Settings page
>
> Also, in general, I think WordPress itself should do a few things to lessen
> the "blog assumption".  Nothing major, but a few small things to consider:
>
>        1) On General Settings page, change "Blog Title" and "Blog Address"
> to "Site Title" and "Site Address"
>
>        2) Ditto "Privacy" page.  "Blog" s/b "Site"
>
> Good idea?  Bad?  Discuss!
>
> Stephen
>
> --
> Stephen Rider
> http://striderweb.com/
>
> _______________________________________________
> wp-hackers mailing list
> wp-hackers@...
> http://lists.automattic.com/mailman/listinfo/wp-hackers
>

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wp-hackers@...
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[scribu]

I've seen alot of plugins for "using WP as a CMS", but none that actually
hide the blog parts.

I wish I had though of this ideea first. Darn...



>        1) Remove "Posts" and "Comments" from main menu.  (Am I correct that
> direct links will still work?  Is there a way to remove those areas entirely
> rather than just hiding the menu items?)
>

Hook into 'admin_init' and redirect to dashboard or wherever.



>        2) Remove "Recent Comments" and "QuickPress" from Dashboard.
>  (Again, can it be removed entirely or merely hidden?)
>

That's easy. Just use remove_meta_box().



>        3) Remove "Press This" from Tools page (how?)
>

No ideea.



>        4) Writing Settings page -- remove/hide/turn off "Remote
> Publishing", "Post Via Email", and "Update Services" settings
>

I think you can use the Settings API for that.


       5) Reading Settings page -- remove "Front Page Displays" option.  Set
> it to "static page".  Still must allow user to set the static page though.
>

CSS only, I think.



> Also, in general, I think WordPress itself should do a few things to lessen
> the "blog assumption".  Nothing major, but a few small things to consider:
>
>        1) On General Settings page, change "Blog Title" and "Blog Address"
> to "Site Title" and "Site Address"
>
>        2) Ditto "Privacy" page.  "Blog" s/b "Site"
>

Definetly Trac material.


Be sure to keep us posted on this plugin.


--
http://scribu.net
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[Mike Little]

2009/10/21 Stephen Rider <wp-hackers@...>

> [edited for clarity]
> Note:  This email repeats a lot of things I said in another email, for the
> benefit of those who are not following the Security thread.  For those who
> *are* following that thread, please skim to the bottom, as I pose a new and
> separate question from the security issues discussed elsewhere....
>
> ---
>
>
> The Big Question:  What would a "CMS" plugin have to do?  Posts and
> comments are woven throughout the Admin, and I'd like to remove all aspects
> of them from the menus.  My "to do" list is below -- if I'm missing
> something, or if you have advice as to how to do some of this, I would
> appreciate.
>
>

Stephen,

Take a look at a plugin like Adminize
http://wordpress.org/extend/plugins/adminimize/

which allows you turn do things like turn off the posts menu for individual
levels of user, and turn off lots of other things at a fairly fine-grained
level.

You can also use the translation capability to 'translate' the names of
things into something else. I know of one person who simply created a
language pack that changed all references to 'post' to be 'news' or
something similar.


Mike
--
Mike Little
http://zed1.com/
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[John Turner-8]

What would a "CMS" plugin have to do?

I think this would be based on the type of cms you want to create and it's
goals. I don't think one plugin would suffice.

I'm about to launch a wordpress mu site for bands and I created a lot of
plugins to remove , rename, and reorder the menu, I used javascript to
change a lot of the text on the pages and hide or change other elements.
reorder and remove dashboard widgets, filter plugins, shortcodes for post
types, alter the sign up, filter widgets, create default pages, etc..

I don't have my demo live right now  because I'm still testing servers but
you can see a demo here. http://vimeo.com/6691281. It's a little long but as
I go through the demo , you can see all the cms changes I have made.

So I don't think just one plugin will work since there are so many different
needs. I think it would take a collection like BuddyPress originally.

My pluigns are not release ready , but I plan too once my site goes live.

Thanks,

John Turner
http://johndturner.com
http://twitter.com/johnturner

> From: Mike Schinkel <mikeschinkel@...>
> Reply-To: <wp-hackers@...>
> Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 16:12:17 -0400
> To: <wp-hackers@...>
> Subject: Re: [wp-hackers] WordPress as CMS (was: wordpress security)
>
>> You're most likely about to be told either:
>>
>> 1) If you want a website CMS (non-blog) then try drupal/joomla/EE
>> 2) If you MUST use WP as a site CMS (non-blog) just tell your client
>> to
>> ignore the blog stuff.
>
> You are probably right. And if you are, it's a real damn shame.
>
>> FWIW, I like the idea of a lightweight plugin that does nothing but
>> remove
>> all references to blog posts, comments, etc. I think it's a fine idea.
>
> I too really want to use WordPress as a CMS first and a blogging tool
> second. I run into 5 people who want the former for every one who
> wants the latter.
>
> -Mike Schinkel
> WordPress Custom Plugins
> http://mikeschinkel.com/custom-wordpress-plugins/
>
>
>
>
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[Jason Benesch]

 > 1) Remove "Posts" and "Comments" from main menu.  (Am I correct that
> direct links will still work?  Is there a way to remove those areas
entirely
> rather than just hiding the menu items?)

> Hook into 'admin_init' and redirect to dashboard or wherever.

You wouldn't want to do a redirect.  Just remove the specific page from the
menu array.

Example:

function edit_your_menu() {
    global $menu, $submenu;
    unset( $submenu[ 'wpmu-admin.php' ][30] );
}
add_action('admin_menu','edit_your_menu');

The menu is stored in the $menu array and the submenu is stored in the
$submenu array...


It seems like your problem isn't with functionality but more with semantics
of how the admin section is laid out.

If you are going to write a plugin, you could very easily just hook in to
the admin_menu and completely customize the look and feel of what you think
a CMS should look like.


On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 1:33 PM, Mike Little <mike@...> wrote:

> 2009/10/21 Stephen Rider <wp-hackers@...>
>
> > [edited for clarity]
> > Note:  This email repeats a lot of things I said in another email, for
> the
> > benefit of those who are not following the Security thread.  For those
> who
> > *are* following that thread, please skim to the bottom, as I pose a new
> and
> > separate question from the security issues discussed elsewhere....
> >
> > ---
> >
> >
> > The Big Question:  What would a "CMS" plugin have to do?  Posts and
> > comments are woven throughout the Admin, and I'd like to remove all
> aspects
> > of them from the menus.  My "to do" list is below -- if I'm missing
> > something, or if you have advice as to how to do some of this, I would
> > appreciate.
> >
> >
>
> Stephen,
>
> Take a look at a plugin like Adminize
> http://wordpress.org/extend/plugins/adminimize/
>
> which allows you turn do things like turn off the posts menu for individual
> levels of user, and turn off lots of other things at a fairly fine-grained
> level.
>
> You can also use the translation capability to 'translate' the names of
> things into something else. I know of one person who simply created a
> language pack that changed all references to 'post' to be 'news' or
> something similar.
>
>
> Mike
> --
> Mike Little
> http://zed1.com/
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--
Jason Benesch

Real Estate Tomato
Co-owner
www.realestatetomato.com
[phone]
jason@...

ListingPress
Owner, Founder
www.listingpress.com
[phone]
jason@...
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[Otto-19]

I don't get it. Why would anybody want to use WordPress, but disable
all the useful features?

I'm a strong believer in the right tool for the right job. If you're
not making a blog (by which I mean a stream of continuing content of
some type), then WordPress is not the right tool to be using.

If I wanted an easy-to-edit but semi-static site with no discussion or
feedback from other users, hooked to a templating and theming
mechanism, then I'd look at Wiki software instead, with editing being
limited to the registered users (and registration turned off). I'd
certainly not look at WordPress or any other "CMS" type software, nor
would I recommend any of these to a client for such a case.

My advice would be to make a plugin that erases WordPress and installs
some other piece of software more suitable for their needs. WordPress
is great, but it is not the end-all be-all of software packages. It
was never intended, and is not now, suitable for all cases. No
software is ever going suitable for all cases when the "case" is so
broad as "web site".

-Otto
Sent from Memphis, TN, United States
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[Jerry Johnson]

Now that's just funny right there.

I personally think it is a great idea. I will be following along as an
interested spectator.

Jerry Milo Johnson


On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 4:47 PM, Otto <otto@...> wrote:

> <snip>



> My advice would be to make a plugin that erases WordPress and installs
> some other piece of software more suitable for their needs.
>
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[Joost de Valk-5]

Otto,
I think there are now dozens of people on this list who are NOT agreeing
with you. Me and my company are rapidly using WordPress to replace large
corporate CMS'es, usually without using the blog functionality or by calling
it the "news section". We do so for a couple of reasons:
- because it's easy to develop for, and thus easy to hire people for,
- there's a slew of plugins available making a lot of the work that's
otherwise custom work as easy as flipping a switch,
- the interface is user friendly

And, more importantly: a lot of people KNOW WordPress from their blogs. It's
much like why most of the world uses Microsoft Word, even when they're
writing a book. Yes there are probably tools that, architecturally, are
better suited for the job, but because everyone knows how to use WordPress,
it's actually easier to implement. (this analogy is poorly written but hey,
i'm jotting it down quickly)

So, if you choose to do something else with WordPress, please do, but for a
lot of us, WordPress already IS a CMS. And I agree with Stephen that it's
about time we got the chance to change the wording in a lot of spaces. It
may sound trivial, but the wording is actually a *very* important part of
the interface... :)

Best,
Joost

On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 10:47 PM, Otto <otto@...> wrote:

> I don't get it. Why would anybody want to use WordPress, but disable
> all the useful features?
>
> I'm a strong believer in the right tool for the right job. If you're
> not making a blog (by which I mean a stream of continuing content of
> some type), then WordPress is not the right tool to be using.
>
> If I wanted an easy-to-edit but semi-static site with no discussion or
> feedback from other users, hooked to a templating and theming
> mechanism, then I'd look at Wiki software instead, with editing being
> limited to the registered users (and registration turned off). I'd
> certainly not look at WordPress or any other "CMS" type software, nor
> would I recommend any of these to a client for such a case.
>
> My advice would be to make a plugin that erases WordPress and installs
> some other piece of software more suitable for their needs. WordPress
> is great, but it is not the end-all be-all of software packages. It
> was never intended, and is not now, suitable for all cases. No
> software is ever going suitable for all cases when the "case" is so
> broad as "web site".
>
> -Otto
> Sent from Memphis, TN, United States
> _______________________________________________
> wp-hackers mailing list
> wp-hackers@...
> http://lists.automattic.com/mailman/listinfo/wp-hackers
>

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[Steven Rossi]

I sorta agree with that: Wordpress has a lot of extra features that a simple
site would not need. At the same time, though, it's extremely easy to set up
and customize, and that's not to mention how many headaches can be saved by
using it rather than a complex custom CMS for a client. I've seen lots of
uses for Wordpress that don't involve blog posts (i.e. business card-type
themes, portfolios, and on and on...see articles like Noupe's 25 Unique Uses
of Wordpress as a CMS [
http://www.noupe.com/wordpress/25-unique-uses-of-wordpress-as-cms.html] for
some more examples). It's a powerful CMS, and I advocate its use in a wide
variety of functions.
I don't want to go overboard, however, and say that a simple 1- or 2-page
site should be built using Wordpress. Some things are better off just
hand-coded. I just think that Wordpress is very powerful and versatile.

Steven Rossi
http://www.letsmovetothemoon.com
http://stevenjrossi.com
http://www.twitter.com/supermoonman

On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 3:47 PM, Otto <otto@...> wrote:

> I don't get it. Why would anybody want to use WordPress, but disable
> all the useful features?
>
> I'm a strong believer in the right tool for the right job. If you're
> not making a blog (by which I mean a stream of continuing content of
> some type), then WordPress is not the right tool to be using.
>
> If I wanted an easy-to-edit but semi-static site with no discussion or
> feedback from other users, hooked to a templating and theming
> mechanism, then I'd look at Wiki software instead, with editing being
> limited to the registered users (and registration turned off). I'd
> certainly not look at WordPress or any other "CMS" type software, nor
> would I recommend any of these to a client for such a case.
>
> My advice would be to make a plugin that erases WordPress and installs
> some other piece of software more suitable for their needs. WordPress
> is great, but it is not the end-all be-all of software packages. It
> was never intended, and is not now, suitable for all cases. No
> software is ever going suitable for all cases when the "case" is so
> broad as "web site".
>
> -Otto
> Sent from Memphis, TN, United States
> _______________________________________________
> wp-hackers mailing list
> wp-hackers@...
> http://lists.automattic.com/mailman/listinfo/wp-hackers
>

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[mark waterous]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: wp-hackers-bounces@... [mailto:wp-hackers-
> bounces@...] On Behalf Of Stephen Rider
> Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 2009 1:00 PM
> To: wp-hackers@...
>
>
> 1) Remove "Posts" and "Comments" from main menu.  (Am I correct that
> direct links will still work?  Is there a way to remove those areas
> entirely rather than just hiding the menu items?)

I might be way off base here, but is removing these things truly beneficial
for pushing Wordpress towards being more widely accepted for its CMS
capabilities?

It occurs to me that Posts, in combination with the WP_Query object is one
of Wordpress' most powerful features for customization and functionality.
This has been demonstrated time and again by various designers and
developers. Maybe changing the naming conventions would be a better
practice, or removing Pages instead? That would leave you with the ability
to still tag and categorize posts for use in custom template designs, or
attach comments, which can be a major factor in most online communities.


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[Andrew Nacin]

Press This requires the edit_posts capability. But since no one should have
any _posts capabilities:

 add_filter('user_has_cap', 'cms_remove_post_caps');
 function cms_remove_post_caps($caps) {
    foreach ($caps as $cap=>$v)
        if (substr($cap,-5)=='posts') unset($caps[$cap]);
    $remove = array('manage_categories','moderate_comments');
    foreach ($remove as $cap)
        unset($caps[$cap]);
    return $caps;
 }

That right there removes Posts and Comments from admin menus, knocking a few
items off Stephen's checklist.
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[Otto-19]

On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 3:57 PM, Joost de Valk <joost@...> wrote:
> Otto,
> I think there are now dozens of people on this list who are NOT agreeing
> with you.

Joost,

I'm totally uninterested in whether people agree with me or not. I'm
giving my opinion because I'm trying to get feedback and understand
why anybody in their right mind would want this sort of thing.

Seriously.

> Me and my company are rapidly using WordPress to replace large
> corporate CMS'es, usually without using the blog functionality or by calling
> it the "news section". We do so for a couple of reasons:
> - because it's easy to develop for, and thus easy to hire people for,
> - there's a slew of plugins available making a lot of the work that's
> otherwise custom work as easy as flipping a switch,
> - the interface is user friendly
>
> And, more importantly: a lot of people KNOW WordPress from their blogs. It's
> much like why most of the world uses Microsoft Word, even when they're
> writing a book. Yes there are probably tools that, architecturally, are
> better suited for the job, but because everyone knows how to use WordPress,
> it's actually easier to implement. (this analogy is poorly written but hey,
> i'm jotting it down quickly)

So, to break down your reasons:

- Easy to work with (I assure you that MediaWiki is dead simple, you
might want to have a look)

- Existence of large base of plugins (most of which are useless since
you're wanting to castrate the rest of the system anyway... BTW, did
you know MediaWiki has plugins too?)

- User friendly interface (Can't fault you there, MediaWiki's
interface is a pile of dogshit to start with. Fortunately, there's
half a dozen plugins that spice up the editor and make it "Visual"
just like WordPress'...)

- User knows how to use it (I'm pretty sure every human being who's
ever used the internet has used Wikipedia at one point or another, and
will grasp the general concepts right away.)

I realize your reasoning is sound to you, and that you're in a hurry,
but I'd encourage you to give some things a rethink here, and take a
look at other software packages as well.

Again, I like WP. I contribute to WP with help and code. But
seriously, these misguided attempts to make WP do anything and
everything hurt the project more than they help it, IMO. There is room
in this world for more than one piece of software for a generalized
task.

-Otto
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[scribu]

On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 11:57 PM, Joost de Valk <joost@...> wrote:

> -snip-
> So, if you choose to do something else with WordPress, please do, but for a
> lot of us, WordPress already IS a CMS. And I agree with Stephen that it's
> about time we got the chance to change the wording in a lot of spaces. It
> may sound trivial, but the wording is actually a *very* important part of
> the interface... :)
>

Maybe you could lend a hand with this
ticket<http://core.trac.wordpress.org/ticket/10996>then.


--
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[Doug Stewart]

Otto:
Seems to me that folks are primarily advocating for WordPress(.org) to
be seen as a self-installable incarnation of the service offered by
providers such as Squarespace (http://www.squarespace.com/), wherein
you simply create a website and along with that comes comments,
forums, photo galleries, polls, and yes, even blogging capabilities.

I'm not saying I necessarily agree with the thinking, but I must say
that in almost all cases, when my customers ask for something
web-related, my first thought is generally "Can I make WordPress do
this easily and cheaply?".   To date, I think my answer has been "yes"
around 75-85% of the time (employee locators, process certification
database, occasionally-update brochureware site, intranet "portal",
etc.).

--
-Doug
http://literalbarrage.org/blog/
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