a Main Page proposal

[Mark A. Jensen]

Hello all,

As Brian articulated so well for many of us,
the wiki main page is, well, butt-ugly.
Please check out the Main Page Beta at
http://www.bioperl.org/wiki/Main_Page_Beta
and respond to this thread or on the discussion
page.

cheers and thanks,
MAJ
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[Sendu Bala-2]

Mark A. Jensen wrote:
> Hello all,
>
> As Brian articulated so well for many of us,
> the wiki main page is, well, butt-ugly.
> Please check out the Main Page Beta at
> http://www.bioperl.org/wiki/Main_Page_Beta
> and respond to this thread or on the discussion
> page.

I never thought the main page was 'butt-ugly' (rather, what I expect
from a wiki), but, to put it bluntly, the graphical flourishes in your
proposal are cringe-worthy. I couldn't do any better. I think for
graphical things you'd need a professional graphics designer or similar.

The actual content and organisation of your version is probably an
improvement though.
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[Robert Buels]

Sendu Bala wrote:
> from a wiki), but, to put it bluntly, the graphical flourishes in your
> proposal are cringe-worthy. I couldn't do any better. I think for

I think what Sendu was trying to say is that he didn't like the gradient
section heads?  There are only two graphical things on that page, and
the other one is an enlargement of the existing logo, so I suppose
that's what he means.

They're not my absolute favorite either, but I certainly wouldn't
describe them as cringe-worthy!  :-P

Rob


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[Peter-329]

On Mon, Sep 21, 2009 at 8:40 AM, Robert Buels <rmb32@...> wrote:
>
> I think what Sendu was trying to say is that he didn't like the gradient
> section heads?  There are only two graphical things on that page, and the
> other one is an enlargement of the existing logo, so I suppose that's what
> he means.

On my browser the gradient section headers on that draft
suddenly change to grey for the section title text background
(Linux, Firefox 3.0.14).

Personally, I would also say that even this proposal is still
far too heavy (in terms of text content).

We had some similar discussions about the Biopython wiki
based homepage - although our old one was nowhere near
as busy as the current BioPerl main page, it was still not as
welcoming as our current version *tries* to be.

Old:
http://biopython.org/w/index.php?title=Biopython&oldid=2527

New:
http://biopython.org/wiki/Main_Page

It would be easy for you to embed the BioPerl OBF blog
headlines into the main page like we did.

I can dig out links to our mailing list archive if anyone is
interested in the discussion.

Peter

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[Mark A. Jensen]

Hey, if Sendu cringed, he cringed. If I had one, I'd keep my
day job. In the meantime, the graphics are removed.
MAJ
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Buels" <rmb32@...>
Cc: "BioPerl List" <bioperl-l@...>
Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 3:40 AM
Subject: Re: [Bioperl-l] a Main Page proposal

> Sendu Bala wrote:
>> from a wiki), but, to put it bluntly, the graphical flourishes in your
>> proposal are cringe-worthy. I couldn't do any better. I think for
>
> I think what Sendu was trying to say is that he didn't like the gradient
> section heads?  There are only two graphical things on that page, and
> the other one is an enlargement of the existing logo, so I suppose
> that's what he means.
>
> They're not my absolute favorite either, but I certainly wouldn't
> describe them as cringe-worthy!  :-P
>
> Rob
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Bioperl-l mailing list
> Bioperl-l@...
> http://lists.open-bio.org/mailman/listinfo/bioperl-l
>
>

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[Mark A. Jensen]

I'd appreciate those links, Peter- thanks
MAJ
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter" <biopython@...>
To: "BioPerl List" <bioperl-l@...>
Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 5:45 AM
Subject: Re: [Bioperl-l] a Main Page proposal


On Mon, Sep 21, 2009 at 8:40 AM, Robert Buels <rmb32@...> wrote:
>
> I think what Sendu was trying to say is that he didn't like the gradient
> section heads? There are only two graphical things on that page, and the
> other one is an enlargement of the existing logo, so I suppose that's what
> he means.

On my browser the gradient section headers on that draft
suddenly change to grey for the section title text background
(Linux, Firefox 3.0.14).

Personally, I would also say that even this proposal is still
far too heavy (in terms of text content).

We had some similar discussions about the Biopython wiki
based homepage - although our old one was nowhere near
as busy as the current BioPerl main page, it was still not as
welcoming as our current version *tries* to be.

Old:
http://biopython.org/w/index.php?title=Biopython&oldid=2527

New:
http://biopython.org/wiki/Main_Page

It would be easy for you to embed the BioPerl OBF blog
headlines into the main page like we did.

I can dig out links to our mailing list archive if anyone is
interested in the discussion.

Peter

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[Emanuele Osimo]

I can say that, for a neophyte, the contents are a great improvement.
You can find with a lot more ease what you are searching for.

Emanuele

On Mon, Sep 21, 2009 at 06:22, Mark A. Jensen <maj@...> wrote:

> Hello all,
>
> As Brian articulated so well for many of us,
> the wiki main page is, well, butt-ugly.
> Please check out the Main Page Beta at
> http://www.bioperl.org/wiki/Main_Page_Beta
> and respond to this thread or on the discussion
> page.
>
> cheers and thanks,
> MAJ
> _______________________________________________
> Bioperl-l mailing list
> Bioperl-l@...
> http://lists.open-bio.org/mailman/listinfo/bioperl-l
>

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[Hilmar Lapp]

What's probably worth looking at as a example is the gmod.org home  
page. Stylistically, one thing you want to get out of the way is the  
auto-generated TOC.

        -hilmar

On Sep 21, 2009, at 12:22 AM, Mark A. Jensen wrote:

> Hello all,
>
> As Brian articulated so well for many of us,
> the wiki main page is, well, butt-ugly.
> Please check out the Main Page Beta at
> http://www.bioperl.org/wiki/Main_Page_Beta
> and respond to this thread or on the discussion
> page.
>
> cheers and thanks,
> MAJ
> _______________________________________________
> Bioperl-l mailing list
> Bioperl-l@...
> http://lists.open-bio.org/mailman/listinfo/bioperl-l

--
===========================================================
: Hilmar Lapp  -:-  Durham, NC  -:-  hlapp at gmx dot net :
===========================================================



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[Peter-329]

Peter wrote:
>> We had some similar discussions about the Biopython wiki
>> based homepage - although our old one was nowhere near
>> as busy as the current BioPerl main page, it was still not as
>> welcoming as our current version *tries* to be.
>> ...
>> I can dig out links to our mailing list archive if anyone is
>> interested in the discussion.

On Mon, Sep 21, 2009 at 12:32 PM, Mark A. Jensen wrote:
>
> I'd appreciate those links, Peter- thanks
> MAJ

OK, here you are - this was most of it, I'd have to dig though
my old emails to see what else I can find:
http://lists.open-bio.org/pipermail/biopython-dev/2009-April/005867.html

Remember Biopython went from a very minimal home page, to
something aiming to be more newcomer friendly. BioPerl on the
other hand seems to want to move away from the current very
text heavy information rich page to something more focused and
newcomer friendly. To me at least the current page is too dense,
intimidating, and the important bits get lost in all the content.

[My apologies if any of this feedback come accross too blunt.]

If you haven't already looked at them, you should checkout the
other OBF project pages for ideas. The BioJava homepage is
also using the wiki - in my opinion it is a bit cluttered, but is
still more accessible than the current BioPerl page. Also,
the BioRuby page is very nice - although not wiki based.

Regards,

Peter
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[Chris Fields-5]

On Sep 21, 2009, at 7:28 AM, Peter wrote:

> Peter wrote:
>>> We had some similar discussions about the Biopython wiki
>>> based homepage - although our old one was nowhere near
>>> as busy as the current BioPerl main page, it was still not as
>>> welcoming as our current version *tries* to be.
>>> ...
>>> I can dig out links to our mailing list archive if anyone is
>>> interested in the discussion.
>
> On Mon, Sep 21, 2009 at 12:32 PM, Mark A. Jensen wrote:
>>
>> I'd appreciate those links, Peter- thanks
>> MAJ
>
> OK, here you are - this was most of it, I'd have to dig though
> my old emails to see what else I can find:
> http://lists.open-bio.org/pipermail/biopython-dev/2009-April/005867.html
>
> Remember Biopython went from a very minimal home page, to
> something aiming to be more newcomer friendly. BioPerl on the
> other hand seems to want to move away from the current very
> text heavy information rich page to something more focused and
> newcomer friendly. To me at least the current page is too dense,
> intimidating, and the important bits get lost in all the content.
>
> [My apologies if any of this feedback come accross too blunt.]

Not at all; I'm thinking the same thing.

> If you haven't already looked at them, you should checkout the
> other OBF project pages for ideas. The BioJava homepage is
> also using the wiki - in my opinion it is a bit cluttered, but is
> still more accessible than the current BioPerl page. Also,
> the BioRuby page is very nice - although not wiki based.
>
> Regards,
>
> Peter

I think the Biopython layout is very nice and focused.  Maybe a bit  
too minimal, but then again I don't like scrolling up and down the  
page to find the relevant bits, so less may be better.

Reminds me of the simplifed design on the perl6 main page (just don't  
stare at the hallucinogenic butterfly too long):

http://www.perl6.org/

So, maybe a structured layout with the most important links, and  
additional links on a separate page.

chris

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[Brian Osborne-2]

Mark,

That's nice! I wonder if we can move some content up-top, on the  
right, for less scrolling. I will play with this later today...

Brian O.


On Sep 21, 2009, at 12:22 AM, Mark A. Jensen wrote:

> Hello all,
>
> As Brian articulated so well for many of us,
> the wiki main page is, well, butt-ugly.
> Please check out the Main Page Beta at
> http://www.bioperl.org/wiki/Main_Page_Beta
> and respond to this thread or on the discussion
> page.
>
> cheers and thanks,
> MAJ
> _______________________________________________
> Bioperl-l mailing list
> Bioperl-l@...
> http://lists.open-bio.org/mailman/listinfo/bioperl-l

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[Mark A. Jensen]

Ah! I don't need a degree in design, just a dose of whatever Madame Butterfly
was taking!
(Erdos had it right...)

----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Fields" <cjfields@...>
To: "Peter" <biopython@...>
Cc: "BioPerl List" <bioperl-l@...>; "Mark A. Jensen"
<maj@...>
Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 9:05 AM
Subject: Re: [Bioperl-l] a Main Page proposal

>
> On Sep 21, 2009, at 7:28 AM, Peter wrote:
>
>> Peter wrote:
>>>> We had some similar discussions about the Biopython wiki
>>>> based homepage - although our old one was nowhere near
>>>> as busy as the current BioPerl main page, it was still not as
>>>> welcoming as our current version *tries* to be.
>>>> ...
>>>> I can dig out links to our mailing list archive if anyone is
>>>> interested in the discussion.
>>
>> On Mon, Sep 21, 2009 at 12:32 PM, Mark A. Jensen wrote:
>>>
>>> I'd appreciate those links, Peter- thanks
>>> MAJ
>>
>> OK, here you are - this was most of it, I'd have to dig though
>> my old emails to see what else I can find:
>> http://lists.open-bio.org/pipermail/biopython-dev/2009-April/005867.html
>>
>> Remember Biopython went from a very minimal home page, to
>> something aiming to be more newcomer friendly. BioPerl on the
>> other hand seems to want to move away from the current very
>> text heavy information rich page to something more focused and
>> newcomer friendly. To me at least the current page is too dense,
>> intimidating, and the important bits get lost in all the content.
>>
>> [My apologies if any of this feedback come accross too blunt.]
>
> Not at all; I'm thinking the same thing.
>
>> If you haven't already looked at them, you should checkout the
>> other OBF project pages for ideas. The BioJava homepage is
>> also using the wiki - in my opinion it is a bit cluttered, but is
>> still more accessible than the current BioPerl page. Also,
>> the BioRuby page is very nice - although not wiki based.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Peter
>
> I think the Biopython layout is very nice and focused.  Maybe a bit  too
> minimal, but then again I don't like scrolling up and down the  page to find
> the relevant bits, so less may be better.
>
> Reminds me of the simplifed design on the perl6 main page (just don't  stare
> at the hallucinogenic butterfly too long):
>
> http://www.perl6.org/
>
> So, maybe a structured layout with the most important links, and  additional
> links on a separate page.
>
> chris
>
> _______________________________________________
> Bioperl-l mailing list
> Bioperl-l@...
> http://lists.open-bio.org/mailman/listinfo/bioperl-l
>
>

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[Peter-329]

On Mon, Sep 21, 2009 at 2:05 PM, Chris Fields <cjfields@...> wrote:
>
> I think the Biopython layout is very nice and focused.  Maybe
> a bit too minimal, but then again I don't like scrolling up and
> down the page to find the relevant bits, so less may be better.

Yes, trying to get everything on one screen was deliberate
(and works for most screen sizes).

> Reminds me of the simplifed design on the perl6 main page
> (just don't stare at the hallucinogenic butterfly too long):
>
> http://www.perl6.org/
>
> So, maybe a structured layout with the most important links,
> and additional links on a separate page.

Butterflies aside, yes - that is what we tried to do on the
Biopython page - just provide an "abstract", and links to
get people to the main content.

Peter

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[Mark A. Jensen]

Please view the latest
http://www.bioperl.org/wiki/Main_Page_Beta
No graphics. I incline towards more text, but you
already knew that.
MAJ
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark A. Jensen" <maj@...>
To: "BioPerl List" <bioperl-l@...>
Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 12:22 AM
Subject: [Bioperl-l] a Main Page proposal

> Hello all,
>
> As Brian articulated so well for many of us,
> the wiki main page is, well, butt-ugly.
> Please check out the Main Page Beta at
> http://www.bioperl.org/wiki/Main_Page_Beta
> and respond to this thread or on the discussion
> page.
>
> cheers and thanks,
> MAJ
> _______________________________________________
> Bioperl-l mailing list
> Bioperl-l@...
> http://lists.open-bio.org/mailman/listinfo/bioperl-l
>
>

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[Dave Messina-3]

Hi Mark,
Thanks for taking on this (much needed) refresh.

I think your current version is substantially better than what we have now.
Still, I'd argue that something much more concise like the Biopython page
would make a bigger impact on visitors' ability to find what they're looking
for.

It's not that the details you have under each section shouldn't be
available, but rather that they could be clicked through to instead of being
on the front page.

The About section is a good example. I would bet most visitors to the
BioPerl website skip over the About section because they already know what
BioPerl is, and that section has the most valuable real estate on the page.
Those who don't know and are curious will probably be able to find it (the
word About on the front page of a website has become an idiom for "click her
to read the details about this").



Dave
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[Chris Fields-5]

On Sep 21, 2009, at 12:03 PM, Dave Messina wrote:

> Hi Mark,
> Thanks for taking on this (much needed) refresh.
>
> I think your current version is substantially better than what we  
> have now.
> Still, I'd argue that something much more concise like the Biopython  
> page
> would make a bigger impact on visitors' ability to find what they're  
> looking
> for.
>
> It's not that the details you have under each section shouldn't be
> available, but rather that they could be clicked through to instead  
> of being
> on the front page.
>
> The About section is a good example. I would bet most visitors to the
> BioPerl website skip over the About section because they already  
> know what
> BioPerl is, and that section has the most valuable real estate on  
> the page.
> Those who don't know and are curious will probably be able to find  
> it (the
> word About on the front page of a website has become an idiom for  
> "click her
> to read the details about this").
>
>
>
> Dave

How about this version (it's on my talk page):

http://www.bioperl.org/wiki/User_talk:Cjfields

chris
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[Mark A. Jensen]

A nearly completely minimal solution is at Main Page Beta
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Messina" <David.Messina@...>
To: "Mark A. Jensen" <maj@...>
Cc: "BioPerl List" <bioperl-l@...>
Sent: Monday, September 21, 2009 1:03 PM
Subject: Re: [Bioperl-l] a Main Page proposal

> Hi Mark,
> Thanks for taking on this (much needed) refresh.
>
> I think your current version is substantially better than what we have now.
> Still, I'd argue that something much more concise like the Biopython page
> would make a bigger impact on visitors' ability to find what they're looking
> for.
>
> It's not that the details you have under each section shouldn't be
> available, but rather that they could be clicked through to instead of being
> on the front page.
>
> The About section is a good example. I would bet most visitors to the
> BioPerl website skip over the About section because they already know what
> BioPerl is, and that section has the most valuable real estate on the page.
> Those who don't know and are curious will probably be able to find it (the
> word About on the front page of a website has become an idiom for "click her
> to read the details about this").
>
>
>
> Dave
> _______________________________________________
> Bioperl-l mailing list
> Bioperl-l@...
> http://lists.open-bio.org/mailman/listinfo/bioperl-l
>
>

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[Smithies, Russell]

Here's a few comments to ignore at will :-)

How about using a different default skin so it doesn't look like all the other installations of MediaWiki?
I've attached a screenshot of one of my wikis using the "Daddio" skin but a bit of crafty CSS can do wonders.
Also, there's a lot of duplication with most of the links on Mediawiki:Sidebar also appearing on the main page content.
The "Treeview" is a nice extension as well for tidying up complex menus http://semeb.com/dpldemo/index.php?title=Treeview_extension 

I've got a bit of experience with wikis and extensions (we use LOTS of extensions) so let me know if there's anything you need.

--Russell

> -----Original Message-----
> From: bioperl-l-bounces@... [mailto:bioperl-l-
> bounces@...] On Behalf Of Mark A. Jensen
> Sent: Monday, 21 September 2009 4:23 p.m.
> To: BioPerl List
> Subject: [Bioperl-l] a Main Page proposal
>
> Hello all,
>
> As Brian articulated so well for many of us,
> the wiki main page is, well, butt-ugly.
> Please check out the Main Page Beta at
> http://www.bioperl.org/wiki/Main_Page_Beta
> and respond to this thread or on the discussion
> page.
>
> cheers and thanks,
> MAJ
> _______________________________________________
> Bioperl-l mailing list
> Bioperl-l@...
> http://lists.open-bio.org/mailman/listinfo/bioperl-l

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[Chris Fields-5]

Russell, Mark,

It would be nice to change the background, just don't want it to be  
too distracting.

Also (I mentioned this to Mark off-list), I think the sidebar would be  
cleaned up considerably, but not until this becomes the default.  I  
also like the use of the TreeView extension, very nice!  Anyone have  
privs for the wiki to test it out?

chris

On Sep 21, 2009, at 3:51 PM, Smithies, Russell wrote:

> Here's a few comments to ignore at will :-)
>
> How about using a different default skin so it doesn't look like all  
> the other installations of MediaWiki?
> I've attached a screenshot of one of my wikis using the "Daddio"  
> skin but a bit of crafty CSS can do wonders.
> Also, there's a lot of duplication with most of the links on  
> Mediawiki:Sidebar also appearing on the main page content.
> The "Treeview" is a nice extension as well for tidying up complex  
> menus http://semeb.com/dpldemo/index.php?title=Treeview_extension
>
> I've got a bit of experience with wikis and extensions (we use LOTS  
> of extensions) so let me know if there's anything you need.
>
> --Russell
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: bioperl-l-bounces@... [mailto:bioperl-l-
>> bounces@...] On Behalf Of Mark A. Jensen
>> Sent: Monday, 21 September 2009 4:23 p.m.
>> To: BioPerl List
>> Subject: [Bioperl-l] a Main Page proposal
>>
>> Hello all,
>>
>> As Brian articulated so well for many of us,
>> the wiki main page is, well, butt-ugly.
>> Please check out the Main Page Beta at
>> http://www.bioperl.org/wiki/Main_Page_Beta
>> and respond to this thread or on the discussion
>> page.
>>
>> cheers and thanks,
>> MAJ
>> _______________________________________________
>> Bioperl-l mailing list
>> Bioperl-l@...
>> http://lists.open-bio.org/mailman/listinfo/bioperl-l
>
> =
> ======================================================================
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> from AgResearch Limited is intended only for the persons or entities
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> AgResearch
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[Jonathan Cline]

Throwing this out there:

- there should be a screenshot section (whatever that means for bioperl)

- the grammar of the beta page should be more correct.

"Welcome to BioPerl, a community effort to produce Perl code which is
useful in biology. "
==> "Welcome to BioPerl, a community effort to produce Perl code serving
as useful tool in the field of Biology."

>>The About section is a good example. I would bet most visitors to the
BioPerl website skip over the About section because they already know what
BioPerl is, ...  Dave<<


Most good software front pages say, in a couple sentences, "what it is
and what it's for", including pictures (as screenshots).

I would bet a ton of visitors don't know what bioperl is, or what it is
used for, or how it can benefit.  There is likely a metric for this (web
stats) as the ratio of new page visits that bounce away vs. new
clickthrus from the front page to the download or docs section.   i.e. a
visitor found the page and didn't continue reading.  I don't really know
all the things bioperl is good for and I've been reading about it here &
there for a while.

I like the following from the About and I believe it fits well on a
front page, expanding "toolkit" to "software library":

"What is Bioperl? It is an open source bioinformatics software library
used by researchers all over the world. If you're looking for a script
built to fit your exact needs you probably won't find it in Bioperl.
What you will find is a diverse set of Perl modules that will enable you
to write your own script, and a community of people who are willing to
help you. "

The old school definition of software library is something like: "useful
routines which can be used by an application (& not itself an
application)" which is basically the description above.

I also like the intro from wikipedia, which I found more informative
about bioperl, and would be good for a front page:

'BioPerl [1] is a collection of Perl modules that facilitate the
development of Perl scripts for bioinformatics applications. It has
played an integral role in the Human Genome Project.[2]  It is an active
open source software project supported by the Open Bioinformatics
Foundation.  In order to take advantage of BioPerl, the user needs a
basic understanding of the Perl programming language including an
understanding of how to use Perl references, modules, objects and methods."

The screenshots could also include pics of books on bioperl or perl+bio,
that would be neat.  (Tisdall's book comes to mind here)



## Jonathan Cline
## jcline@...
## Mobile: [phone]
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