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a couple of oddities from Texas

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	a couple of oddities from Texas by Martin Reid :: Rate this Message: Reply to Author \| View Threaded \| Show Only this Message Dear All, Here are a couple of strange(to me) birds I've seen lately: Is this a hybrid hummingbird from west Texas? - if so, what parentage?: http://www.martinreid.com/Main%20website/hummersp1.html Today I saw four Purple Martins in south Texas; three looked like young of the year, but the adult-type male had a white patch on the lower belly: http://www.martinreid.com/Main%20website/martinsp1.html I'd appreciate any words of wisdom... Cheers, Martin --- Martin Reid www.martinreid.com Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
	Re: a couple of oddities from Texas by Kevin Karlson :: Rate this Message: Reply to Author \| View Threaded \| Show Only this Message Some parts of this message have been removed. Learn more about Nabble's security policy. Re: [BIRDWG01] a couple of oddities from Texas To All: the adult male Purple Martin is not a Snowy-bellied (Caribbean) Martin, but probably a Purple Martin with some disturbed feathers by it's vent. I have seen numerous Caribbean Martins in the Caribbean and Tobago, and they have extensive white vents and lower bellies, not just a small patch of white near the vent like this bird. When you see a Snowy-bellied or Cuban Martin, it shows a great deal of contrast between the white underbelly and the dark chest, with a crisp dividing line between the white vent/lower belly and dark blue chest. Kevin Karlson ----- Original Message ----- From: "Martin Reid" <upupa@...> To: BIRDWG01@... Sent: Wednesday, October 7, 2009 11:30:43 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: [BIRDWG01] a couple of oddities from Texas Dear All, Here are a couple of strange(to me) birds I've seen lately: Is this a hybrid hummingbird from west Texas? - if so, what parentage?: http://www.martinreid.com/Main%20website/hummersp1.html Today I saw four Purple Martins in south Texas; three looked like young of the year, but the adult-type male had a white patch on the lower belly: http://www.martinreid.com/Main%20website/martinsp1.html I'd appreciate any words of wisdom... Cheers, Martin --- Martin Reid www.martinreid.com Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
	Re: a couple of oddities from Texas by Sebastian Patti :: Rate this Message: Reply to Author \| View Threaded \| Show Only this Message Some parts of this message have been removed. Learn more about Nabble's security policy. it almost looks as if the martin has a growth, or some sort of protuberance . . .there does seem to be an outward bulge from the lower parts . . . sebastianpatti@... Sebastian T. Patti (Lincoln Park) Chicago, ILLINOIS 60614-3354 PHONE: 312/603-4416 (o) 773/248-0570 (h) FAX: 312/603-2041 (o) 773/248-0264 (h) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2009 20:39:12 +0000 From: karlson3@... Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] a couple of oddities from Texas To: BIRDWG01@... Re: [BIRDWG01] a couple of oddities from Texas To All: the adult male Purple Martin is not a Snowy-bellied (Caribbean) Martin, but probably a Purple Martin with some disturbed feathers by it's vent. I have seen numerous Caribbean Martins in the Caribbean and Tobago, and they have extensive white vents and lower bellies, not just a small patch of white near the vent like this bird. When you see a Snowy-bellied or Cuban Martin, it shows a great deal of contrast between the white underbelly and the dark chest, with a crisp dividing line between the white vent/lower belly and dark blue chest. Kevin Karlson ----- Original Message ----- From: "Martin Reid" <upupa@...> To: BIRDWG01@... Sent: Wednesday, October 7, 2009 11:30:43 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: [BIRDWG01] a couple of oddities from Texas Dear All, Here are a couple of strange(to me) birds I've seen lately: Is this a hybrid hummingbird from west Texas? - if so, what parentage?: http://www.martinreid.com/Main%20website/hummersp1.html Today I saw four Purple Martins in south Texas; three looked like young of the year, but the adult-type male had a white patch on the lower belly: http://www.martinreid.com/Main%20website/martinsp1.html I'd appreciate any words of wisdom... Cheers, Martin --- Martin Reid www.martinreid.com Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
	Re: a couple of oddities from Texas by Lethaby, Nick :: Rate this Message: Reply to Author \| View Threaded \| Show Only this Message Some parts of this message have been removed. Learn more about Nabble's security policy. Cuban Martin does NOT look like a Caribbean Martin. It is much more similar to Purple Martin. From: NBHC ID-FRONTIERS Frontiers of Field Identification [mailto:BIRDWG01@...] On Behalf Of Kevin Karlson Sent: Friday, October 09, 2009 1:39 PM To: BIRDWG01@... Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] a couple of oddities from Texas Re: [BIRDWG01] a couple of oddities from Texas To All: the adult male Purple Martin is not a Snowy-bellied (Caribbean) Martin, but probably a Purple Martin with some disturbed feathers by it's vent. I have seen numerous Caribbean Martins in the Caribbean and Tobago, and they have extensive white vents and lower bellies, not just a small patch of white near the vent like this bird. When you see a Snowy-bellied or Cuban Martin, it shows a great deal of contrast between the white underbelly and the dark chest, with a crisp dividing line between the white vent/lower belly and dark blue chest. Kevin Karlson ----- Original Message ----- From: "Martin Reid" <upupa@...> To: BIRDWG01@... Sent: Wednesday, October 7, 2009 11:30:43 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: [BIRDWG01] a couple of oddities from Texas Dear All, Here are a couple of strange(to me) birds I've seen lately: Is this a hybrid hummingbird from west Texas? - if so, what parentage?: http://www.martinreid.com/Main%20website/hummersp1.html Today I saw four Purple Martins in south Texas; three looked like young of the year, but the adult-type male had a white patch on the lower belly: http://www.martinreid.com/Main%20website/martinsp1.html I'd appreciate any words of wisdom... Cheers, Martin --- Martin Reid www.martinreid.com Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
	Re: a couple of oddities from Texas by Daniel Lane :: Rate this Message: Reply to Author \| View Threaded \| Show Only this Message Some parts of this message have been removed. Learn more about Nabble's security policy. Kevin, Martin, et al., Nick is right: Cuban Martin is NOT the same thing as Caribbean Martin. The former is very similar to Purple (and, indeed was considered conspecific until only fairly recently). However, the white on Cuban (as per LSU specimens, at least) is nearly as hidden as that on a Purple Martin. Purple Martins do have white bases to feathers on the flanks and vent area, although it's often nearly impossible to see this under field conditions. I suspect that Martin Reid's bird is a Purple Martin with these feathers exposed for some reason, but even if not, it is not a perfect fit for any of the other dark-bodied Progne I know (Sinaloa and Caribbean have far more extensive white). Cuban may well be a contender, but I'm afraid that these three photos without other documentation (voice recordings, for example or, dare I say it, a specimen) would make this a difficult report to confirm one way or another. Basically, the dark martins are a headache (I know this from South American experience!). As for the hummingbird... what characters rule out a regular, every-day Ruby-throated male? Good birding, Dan Lane ----------------------------------------- Kevin Karlson wrote: To All: the adult male Purple Martin is not a Snowy-bellied (Caribbean) Martin, but probably a Purple Martin with some disturbed feathers by it's vent. I have seen numerous Caribbean Martins in the Caribbean and Tobago, and they have extensive white vents and lower bellies, not just a small patch of white near the vent like this bird. When you see a Snowy-bellied or Cuban Martin, it shows a great deal of contrast between the white underbelly and the dark chest, with a crisp dividing line between the white vent/lower belly and dark blue chest. Kevin Karlson ----- Original Message ----- From: "Martin Reid" To: BIRDWG01 AT LISTSERV.ARIZONA.EDU Sent: Wednesday, October 7, 2009 11:30:43 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: [BIRDWG01] a couple of oddities from Texas Dear All, Here are a couple of strange(to me) birds I've seen lately: Is this a hybrid hummingbird from west Texas? - if so, what parentage?: http://www.martinreid.com/Main%20website/hummersp1.html Today I saw four Purple Martins in south Texas; three looked like young of the year, but the adult-type male had a white patch on the lower belly: http://www.martinreid.com/Main%20website/martinsp1.html I'd appreciate any words of wisdom... Cheers, Martin -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Daniel F. Lane Research Associate LSU Museum of Natural Science 119 Foster Hall Baton Rouge, LA 70803-3216 USA Guide Field Guides Inc.: http://www.fieldguides.com/tours.html?area=guides&guide=LANE_D See my website for PDFs of publications and information on my research and artwork <sorry, some links therein are dead... I haven't had a chance to update them>: http://www.museum.lsu.edu/lane.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
	Re: a couple of oddities from Texas by Matt Fraker :: Rate this Message: Reply to Author \| View Threaded \| Show Only this Message Some parts of this message have been removed. Learn more about Nabble's security policy. Greetings, Martin, et.al -- I am in strong support that this bird is "medically" abnormal, versus this being a plumage issue. I agree with Sebastian's point that the area seems abnormally swollen, and I also think that the area of concern is actually a bald patch of skin over this protuberance, and not feathers at all. This is most obvious in the second photo. Maybe this bird should have avoided hitting that hot Texas BBQ..... Matt Fraker The Prairie Oak Veterinary Center Bloomington-Normal, Ill -----Original Message----- From: Sebastian Patti <sebastianpatti@...> To: BIRDWG01@... Sent: Fri, Oct 9, 2009 3:45 pm Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] a couple of oddities from Texas it almost looks as if the martin has a growth, or some sort of protuberance . . .there does seem to be an outward bulge from the lower parts . . . sebastianpatti@... Sebastian T. Patti (Lincoln Park) Chicago, ILLINOIS 60614-3354 PHONE: 312/603-4416 (o) 773/248-0570 (h) FAX: 312/603-2041 (o) 773/248-0264 (h) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2009 20:39:12 +0000 From: karlson3@... Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] a couple of oddities from Texas To: BIRDWG01@... Re: [BIRDWG01] a couple of oddities from Texas To All: the adult male Purple Martin is not a Snowy-bellied (Caribbean) Martin, but probably a Purple Martin with some disturbed feathers by it's vent. I have seen numerous Caribbean Martins in the Caribbean and Tobago, and they have extensive white vents and lower bellies, not just a small patch of white near the vent like this bird. When you see a Snowy-bellied or Cuban Martin, it shows a great deal of contrast between the white underbelly and the dark chest, with a crisp dividing line between the white vent/lower belly and dark blue chest. Kevin Karlson ----- Original Message ----- From: "Martin Reid" <upupa@...> To: BIRDWG01@... Sent: Wednesday, October 7, 2009 11:30:43 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: [BIRDWG01] a couple of oddities from Texas Dear All, Here are a couple of strange(to me) birds I've seen lately: Is this a hybrid hummingbird from west Texas? - if so, what parentage?: http://www.martinreid.com/Main%20website/hummersp1.html Today I saw four Purple Martins in south Texas; three looked like young of the year, but the adult-type male had a white patch on the lower belly: http://www.martinreid.com/Main%20website/martinsp1.html I'd appreciate any words of wisdom... Cheers, Martin --- Martin Reid www.martinreid.com Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html
	Re: a couple of oddities from Texas by Martin Reid :: Rate this Message: Reply to Author \| View Threaded \| Show Only this Message Dear All, I've been waiting for this thread to die down before adding my closing comments. Firstly thank you to all you have participated - I appreciate it. In conclusion, I agree that the white patch on the belly of the male Martin reflects an abnormality, but even if it is the result of a tumor or some other kind of swelling, I think the pics show that the white patch itself consists of feathers, not skin/flesh. Thus regardless of what caused this bulge/swelling, there is a patch of solid white feathering on the lower belly of this individual. From reading various texts I see that CUMA has a "concealed or semi-concealed" white patch in this area.. what does this mean, exactly, in terms of actual feather tracts and patterns? Many New World passerines have "concealed patches", typically on the crown, that consist of a tract of slightly shorter or elongated-but-held-flattened brightly-colored feathers that are normally concealed by the surrounding duller feather tracts, but can be exposed by muscular separation of the surrounding duller feather tracts and/or by muscular erection of the brighter feather tract. Other "semi-concealed" patches consist of a tract of feathers where the tip of each feather is the same color as the surrounding tracts but the bases of each such feather is a contrasting color - typically white or pale gray, such as on Chihuahuan Raven or Brown-necked Raven. Are there other mechanisms for such patches? So which is it for CUMA? - or is it a different mechanism from the two described above? To what extent can PUMA exhibit white in this area, and by which mechanism? TIA for any answers to this! Martin PS Without any clear-cut explanation to the contrary, I think these Martins should be considered unusual/aberrant PUMAs or left unidentified. --- Martin Reid www.martinreid.com On Oct 10, 2009, at Oct 10, 10:01 AM, Matt Fraker wrote: Greetings, Martin, et.al -- I am in strong support that this bird is "medically" abnormal, versus this being a plumage issue. I agree with Sebastian's point that the area seems abnormally swollen, and I also think that the area of concern is actually a bald patch of skin over this protuberance, and not feathers at all. This is most obvious in the second photo. Maybe this bird should have avoided hitting that hot Texas BBQ..... Matt Fraker The Prairie Oak Veterinary Center Bloomington-Normal, Ill -----Original Message----- From: Sebastian Patti <sebastianpatti@...> To: BIRDWG01@... Sent: Fri, Oct 9, 2009 3:45 pm Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] a couple of oddities from Texas it almost looks as if the martin has a growth, or some sort of protuberance . . .there does seem to be an outward bulge from the lower parts . . . sebastianpatti@... Sebastian T. Patti (Lincoln Park) Chicago, ILLINOIS 60614-3354 PHONE: 312/603-4416 (o) 773/248-0570 (h) FAX: 312/603-2041 (o) 773/248-0264 (h) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2009 20:39:12 +0000 From: karlson3@... Subject: Re: [BIRDWG01] a couple of oddities from Texas To: BIRDWG01@... Re: [BIRDWG01] a couple of oddities from Texas To All: the adult male Purple Martin is not a Snowy-bellied (Caribbean) Martin, but probably a Purple Martin with some disturbed feathers by it's vent. I have seen numerous Caribbean Martins in the Caribbean and Tobago, and they have extensive white vents and lower bellies, not just a small patch of white near the vent like this bird. When you see a Snowy-bellied or Cuban Martin, it shows a great deal of contrast between the white underbelly and the dark chest, with a crisp dividing line between the white vent/lower belly and dark blue chest. Kevin Karlson ----- Original Message ----- From: "Martin Reid" <upupa@...> To: BIRDWG01@... Sent: Wednesday, October 7, 2009 11:30:43 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: [BIRDWG01] a couple of oddities from Texas Dear All, Here are a couple of strange(to me) birds I've seen lately: Is this a hybrid hummingbird from west Texas? - if so, what parentage?: http://www.martinreid.com/Main%20website/hummersp1.html Today I saw four Purple Martins in south Texas; three looked like young of the year, but the adult-type male had a white patch on the lower belly: http://www.martinreid.com/Main%20website/martinsp1.html I'd appreciate any words of wisdom... Cheers, Martin --- Martin Reid www.martinreid.com Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html Join or Leave BIRDWG01: http://listserv.arizona.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=birdwg01 Archives: http://listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg01.html