about the garden

[Jan Smith-3]

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I use rosegarden because I don't really have a choice. I must stay in Linux, because that's the only useable OS I have found, and also what my laptop supports best.

Luckily, Rosegarden works reliably, 99% of the time.

The problem is, HOW does it work? It works counter-intuitively and mostly prevents me from actually composing. What I mean is:

* to even get to the staffs, I have to create a so-called segment. And I have to decide how many measures I want. What happens when I run out of bars? New notes overlap old ones. Who decided this was a good idea? How hard would it be to automatically extend the current segment...?

* it's next to impossible to pick the "right" note using the mouse. It's also hard to change durations. Switching from a quarter note to an eighth should not be a major accomplishment, it should be a simple task.

It's possible that rosegarden has keybd shortcuts for these tasks. However, if this is so, they are not DISCOVERABLE shortcuts (as in , you hover the mouse over a symbol and it brings out a tooltip).

There are lots of other problems. The percussion editor doesn't really allow deletion of strokes easily. Even getting the monster (Rosegarden) to run is painful. Cleaning up the KDE crap (the daemons) after it quits is also necessary. But these are less important than the composition problems (to me at least).

I suspect there are many other annoyed users. But given the barrier of entry on a sourceforge list (I've wasted about 15 minutes to create an anonymmous account, because HEY, I don't want to be the guy with a bad attitude on Google when I look for my next employer). you probably do not receive that many complaints.

One thing before I close: I realize Rosegarden is open sores software and all that, but the fact remains that you are (pretty much)
monopolizing the Linux market for composition software, whether you like it or not, and therefore you do have a kind of moral responsibility...

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[cannam]

On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 9:23 PM, Jan Smith<selfclone@...> wrote:
> But given the barrier of entry
> on a sourceforge list (I've wasted about 15 minutes to create an anonymmous
> account, because HEY, I don't want to be the guy with a bad attitude on
> Google when I look for my next employer).

And that's the best way to avoid being a guy with a bad attitude, is it?

> the fact remains that you are (pretty much)
> monopolizing the Linux market for composition software, whether you like it
> or not, and therefore you do have a kind of moral responsibility...

That's untrue and contemptible.

Nothing we do has the effect of causing or perpetuating any kind of
monopoly.  We're a tiny handful of developers working in our spare
time for love.  We have plenty of defects and so does our software,
but it's absurd to suggest we have any particular responsibility for
what every other developer does.

If you'd like to talk constructively, do so.  In which vein -- to
change the current note duration, press the number keys.  They're
shown as shortcuts in the note submenu of the Tools menu.


Chris

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[Jan Smith-3]

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> > account, because HEY, I don't want to be the guy with a bad attitude on
> > Google when I look for my next employer).
>
> And that's the best way to avoid being a guy with a bad attitude, is it?

What I meant was that I don't want to be *discriminated against* for having a bad attitude. I agree that I did not try to phrase things nicely or anything like that, but sometimes it's good to be just be honest (for both sides, I would construe). See further below too.

> That's untrue and contemptible.
>
> Nothing we do has the effect of causing or perpetuating any kind of

Sorry, I should disclaim that -- I did not mean to suggest you have any monopolistic plans, or that you work on Rosegarden for other reasons then "love".

What I meant was that, whether you like it or not, you ARE a de-facto monopoly. You could take that as praise, after all -- no other Linux software comes close to Rosegarden's capabilities.

> If you'd like to talk constructively, do so. In which vein -- to
> change the current note duration, press the number keys. They're
> shown as shortcuts in the note submenu of the Tools menu.

I've been spending hours and hours composing in Rosegarden and getting increasingly frustrated. So finally I put my OTHER hemisphere to work and verbalized my complaints. That's quite a bit of constructive work, even if it didn't seem like that. True, I could have done the extra work of toning down the comments coming from the angry hemisphere, but I don't see why that should be required.

Thanks for the shortcuts. It would be nice if the tooltips displayed those shortcuts, instead of the self-evident (bordering on useless for musicians) "[Eight note]", "[Quarter note]" etc tips.

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[Shelagh Manton-3]

On Fri, Jun 19, 2009 at 8:19 AM, Jan Smith <selfclone@...> wrote:

> > account, because HEY, I don't want to be the guy with a bad attitude on
> > Google when I look for my next employer).
>
> And that's the best way to avoid being a guy with a bad attitude, is it?

What I meant was that I don't want to be *discriminated against* for having a bad attitude. I agree that I did not try to phrase things nicely or anything like that, but sometimes it's good to be just be honest (for both sides, I would construe). See further below too.

> That's untrue and contemptible.
>
> Nothing we do has the effect of causing or perpetuating any kind of

Sorry, I should disclaim that -- I did not mean to suggest you have any monopolistic plans, or that you work on Rosegarden for other reasons then "love".

What I meant was that, whether you like it or not, you ARE a de-facto monopoly. You could take that as praise, after all -- no other Linux software comes close to Rosegarden's capabilities.

> If you'd like to talk constructively, do so. In which vein -- to
> change the current note duration, press the number keys. They're
> shown as shortcuts in the note submenu of the Tools menu.

I've been spending hours and hours composing in Rosegarden and getting increasingly frustrated. So finally I put my OTHER hemisphere to work and verbalized my complaints. That's quite a bit of constructive work, even if it didn't seem like that. True, I could have done the extra work of toning down the comments coming from the angry hemisphere, but I don't see why that should be required.

Thanks for the shortcuts. It would be nice if the tooltips displayed those shortcuts, instead of the self-evident (bordering on useless for musicians) "[Eight note]", "[Quarter note]" etc tips.

 

 

There is a nice and quite comprehensive (though not perfect) manual @ http://www.rosegardenmusic.com/doc/en/

 

Have a read through it and see if it answers any of your questions.

 

Shelagh

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[Jan Smith-3]

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There is a nice and quite comprehensive (though not perfect) manual @ http://www.rosegardenmusic.com/doc/en/

 

>Have a read through it and see if it answers any of your questions.

 
Hey, that's another thing I wanted to complain about. The manual is absolutely useless for me; it tends to state the obvious for pages (and pages) and not mention what I have questions about. Of course, that is a subjective judgment... I think what happens is that developers expound eloquently on obvious stuff and tend to ignore stuff that is hard to verbalise.

Note that, if a manual has the answer to a question burried deep inside, that does not count as real help. Yes, real documentation is hard to write, and most writers require pay for writing it -- I will not deny that.

-- Jan

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[Luis Garrido-4]

Our hearts bleed for you, Jan, we all know how hard is to feel
thwarted in our constitutional right to have quality software for
nought, it is truly outrageous, isn't it?

Please do keep complaining, that's surely helpful and will motivate
people to put away their paying jobs and set their lazy incompetent
arses to the task of coding to deliver the goods that are yours to
claim by birthright by tomorrow morning.

You needn't worry about your email address, with an attitude like that
your next employer (did something happen to the previous one?) won't
need to search google to get an idea of your character, he will figure
it out soon enough.

If you have some time to spare I'll dare to recommend you a healthy
dose of reality checking and a bit of good old literature:

http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

Cheers,

L

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[Jan Smith-3]

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I was sure to get a reply like that, wasn't I, Luigi? Having perfomed that function, thanks for fulfilling a role in the partiture -- if you have something useful to say please do again, Luigi.

As I mentioned, those "open-sores-are-free!!-so-just-don't-download them!!" argument are worse than pointless -- they are misguided. Even if they seem to be popular across "the tubes", they miss any point of criticiscm (badly).

As the most popular software turns to open source, I think we need a different ethos...

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[Brian Clem]

Jan,

Your tone is not acceptable on this forum.  I am speaking for only myself, but I have learned a LOT from the people in this group.  Members have gone out of their way to help.  You are speaking with developers that have been working with Rosegarden since its beginning.  It is very amazing how they work to integrate ideas without guile.  They do not have R&D overhead.  I would imagine that most, or all, take this Rosegarden challenge as a 2nd job out of love.  Your vile arrogance is sickening.  Why dont you put your 'big boy' pants on and fix the freaking manuel if you can make it better.  I am sure your help would be appriciated... but I somehow feel you are just about negativity and come here with an adgenda.  You should leave the way you came...

Brian      

On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 8:21 PM, Jan Smith <selfclone@...> wrote:

I was sure to get a reply like that, wasn't I, Luigi? Having perfomed that function, thanks for fulfilling a role in the partiture -- if you have something useful to say please do again, Luigi.

As I mentioned, those "open-sores-are-free!!-so-just-don't-download them!!" argument are worse than pointless -- they are misguided. Even if they seem to be popular across "the tubes", they miss any point of criticiscm (badly).

As the most popular software turns to open source, I think we need a different ethos...

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[Christopher Cherrett]

Jan has some valid points.

Why so fast to dismiss criticism?

RG was simply impossible to use for my work flow till I and others made
some major code adjustments.

I see this happen a lot in linux audio circles. Because it is open
source developers tend to disregard user input (as negative as it may be)

The issue is that a user comes in frustrated because the app is acting
retarded, they express their frustrations and instead of trying to deal
with the user, the story of the selfless open source dev gets pulled out
and the issues are often not fixed.

>From experience I can say some of my best coding results have come from
listening to people who are angry with my software. Make them happy and
you most likely will have a much better app for it.

Jan, what sort of music are you trying to write?

-------- Original Message  --------
Subject: Re: [Rosegarden-user] about the garden
From: Brian Clem <mrbrianclem@...>
To: Jan Smith <selfclone@...>
Cc: luisgarrido@..., rosegarden-user@...
Date: 06/18/09 20:04

> Jan,
>
> Your tone is not acceptable on this forum.  I am speaking for only
> myself, but I have learned a LOT from the people in this group.
> Members have gone out of their way to help.  You are speaking with
> developers that have been working with Rosegarden since its
> beginning.  It is very amazing how they work to integrate ideas
> without guile.  They do not have R&D overhead.  I would imagine that
> most, or all, take this Rosegarden challenge as a 2nd job out of
> love.  Your vile arrogance is sickening.  Why dont you put your 'big
> boy' pants on and fix the freaking manuel if you can make it better.
> I am sure your help would be appriciated... but I somehow feel you are
> just about negativity and come here with an adgenda.  You should leave
> the way you came...
>
> Brian      
>
> On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 8:21 PM, Jan Smith <selfclone@...
> <mailto:selfclone@...>> wrote:
>
>     I was sure to get a reply like that, wasn't I, Luigi? Having
>     perfomed that function, thanks for fulfilling a role in the
>     partiture -- if you have something useful to say please do again,
>     Luigi.
>
>     As I mentioned, those
>     "open-sores-are-free!!-so-just-don't-download them!!" argument are
>     worse than pointless -- they are misguided. Even if they seem to
>     be popular across "the tubes", they miss any point of criticiscm
>     (badly).
>
>     As the most popular software turns to open source, I think we need
>     a different ethos...
>
>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>     Microsoft brings you a new way to search the web. Try Bing™ now
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>
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>     royalty-free distribution of the report engine for externally facing
>     server and web deployment.
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>     <mailto:Rosegarden-user@...> - use the link
>     below to unsubscribe
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[Jan Smith-3]

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Electronica, and if RG did not exist, I would probably be left without ANY solution. After buying my MIDI keyboard, things improved dramatically. But I don' think that should prohibit me from criticizing the software...

> Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 21:19:53 -0600
> From: stuff@...
> CC: rosegarden-user@...
> Subject: Re: [Rosegarden-user] about the garden
>
> Jan has some valid points.
>
> Why so fast to dismiss criticism?
>
> RG was simply impossible to use for my work flow till I and others made
> some major code adjustments.
>
> I see this happen a lot in linux audio circles. Because it is open
> source developers tend to disregard user input (as negative as it may be)
>
> The issue is that a user comes in frustrated because the app is acting
> retarded, they express their frustrations and instead of trying to deal
> with the user, the story of the selfless open source dev gets pulled out
> and the issues are often not fixed.
>
> >From experience I can say some of my best coding results have come from
> listening to people who are angry with my software. Make them happy and
> you most likely will have a much better app for it.
>
> Jan, what sort of music are you trying to write?
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: Re: [Rosegarden-user] about the garden
> From: Brian Clem <mrbrianclem@...>
> To: Jan Smith <selfclone@...>
> Cc: luisgarrido@..., rosegarden-user@...
> Date: 06/18/09 20:04
> > Jan,
> >
> > Your tone is not acceptable on this forum. I am speaking for only
> > myself, but I have learned a LOT from the people in this group.
> > Members have gone out of their way to help. You are speaking with
> > developers that have been working with Rosegarden since its
> > beginning. It is very amazing how they work to integrate ideas
> > without guile. They do not have R&D overhead. I would imagine that
> > most, or all, take this Rosegarden challenge as a 2nd job out of
> > love. Your vile arrogance is sickening. Why dont you put your 'big
> > boy' pants on and fix the freaking manuel if you can make it better.
> > I am sure your help would be appriciated... but I somehow feel you are
> > just about negativity and come here with an adgenda. You should leave
> > the way you came...
> >
> > Brian
> >
> > On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 8:21 PM, Jan Smith <selfclone@...
> > <mailto:selfclone@...>> wrote:
> >
> > I was sure to get a reply like that, wasn't I, Luigi? Having
> > perfomed that function, thanks for fulfilling a role in the
> > partiture -- if you have something useful to say please do again,
> > Luigi.
> >
> > As I mentioned, those
> > "open-sores-are-free!!-so-just-don't-download them!!" argument are
> > worse than pointless -- they are misguided. Even if they seem to
> > be popular across "the tubes", they miss any point of criticiscm
> > (badly).
> >
> > As the most popular software turns to open source, I think we need
> > a different ethos...
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Microsoft brings you a new way to search the web. Try Bing™ now
> > <http://www.bing.com?form=MFEHPG&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TEXT_MFEHPG_Core_tagline_try+bing_1x1>
> >
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> > royalty-free distribution of the report engine for externally facing
> > server and web deployment.
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> > Rosegarden-user@...
> > <mailto:Rosegarden-user@...> - use the link
> > below to unsubscribe
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rosegarden-user
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> >
>
>
>
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[SeanBeeson]

I didn't read anything on using any of the editors --Matrix, Percussion-- and just started composing, so saying it's counter-intuitive is highly subjective. All sorts of trouble comes when one gets so indignant about a subjective preference that could ultimately have as many varying preferences as there are tastes in art amongst artists. With the Fedora PlanetCCRMA repo I use I never once thought of using RG as a monster and it never has any lingering daemons to kill. In fact, the more I learn about RG's capabilities the more pleasantly surprised and satisfied I am with it. The issues I have had with some functionalities I have mentioned them and people were more than happy to discuss them. Usually, they were a known issue that at some point there are plans to fix, change or an explanation was given for why it won't change soon. I never had to be confrontational about it at all. I have been actually reading most the post on the list for over six months and I haven't seen any questions asked or stated about your concerns. Surely as you would like others to understand your point of view that you assume is so obvious, you can obviously understand how others could dislike your indignation.

Christopher's points on user input on open source functionalities is a reoccurring theme I have been seeing lately and he makes some good points about it. Although the need for such indignation just doesn't seem to be justifiable anywhere. I personally have thought that financially contributing to a few causes would be a more appropriate way of pushing for any sort of functional change I may want. Even with what I might think is lacking in any OS software I use I have thought I should give more. Actually being at a point where I understand RG itself and other linux related audio software I have been hope to at least contribute to help disseminate the knowledge base on it's use. Even Chis himself states that he and others had to contribute in a positive way to make RG work in his work flow.

If some others suggestions are enough on Keystrokes this might help you, but there may be more that are not mentioned: http://www.rosegardenmusic.com/wiki/keystrokes

I could have posted that earlier--all you have to do is ask. ;)

--Sean Beeson (the one in Japan)

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[Jan Smith-3]

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I didn't read anything on using any of the editors --Matrix, Percussion-- and just started composing, so saying it's counter-intuitive is highly subjective. All sorts of trouble comes when one gets so indignant about a

Jan: Well, did you like the segment system, and the need to exit the notation editor just so you can extend a "segment"? That's what really got me annoyed in the first place (along with a few others).

subjective preference that could ultimately have as many varying preferences as there are tastes in art amongst artists. With the Fedora

Jan: I will take anything that resembles an effective workflow... but I did not have anything like that to begin with.

PlanetCCRMA repo I use I never once thought of using RG as a monster and it never has any lingering daemons to kill. In fact, the more I learn

Jan: monster as in it starts all the KDE daemons. I usually have to kill those separately once RG exits. It's not that bad I guess but it is annoying.

about RG's capabilities the more pleasantly surprised and satisfied I am with it. The issues I have had with some functionalities I have mentioned

Just as I said, it works 99% of the time -- but it forces me to switch hemispheres and thus kills 99% of my composing abiity. Does that make some sense?

-- Jan

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[Kevin Donnelly]

On Friday 19 June 2009 04:19, Christopher Cherrett wrote:
> The issue is that a user comes in frustrated because the app is acting
> retarded, they express their frustrations and instead of trying to deal
> with the user, the story of the selfless open source dev gets pulled out
> and the issues are often not fixed.

This is getting it arse-about-face.  I've used various sequencers on different
platforms, and RG, even though it is not perfect, is the only one that I have
found easy to use, so it's hardly unintuitive.  Yet RG is being produced by a
handful of developers, and given away for free, in contrast to commercial
sequencers you will pay lots of money for.  I'm not sure how many of their
devs are on their own product's mailing lists, but I daresay you won't get
them jumping to attention to fix problems just because someone has expressed
frustration.

The "selfless open source dev" is not a cliché to disarm criticism - it's a
reflection of the fact that people who are migrating to Linux from legacy
platforms seem to want the good bits (responsive devs, high-functionality
non-pirated apps, open code, innovation) without accepting that there are
duties alongside them - politeness, patience, gratitude (the standard values
we need in any community, in fact).  The consumerist "gratify me now!"
doesn't really fit in here (and of course, even though the commercial apps
pretend that for them it does, they don't let it fit in there either if it
doesn't mesh with their business plan).

The issues may not be fixed because no-one else is having them (wonky user  
hardware, for instance), or they don't particularly attract the dev, or he
just doesn't have time (for instance, Chris has a day-job and a young family,
and Michael is having to do a succession of jobs).  In that case, the user
has a number of choices:
(a) stop using the app, and go and find another one  - *all* apps will have
problems in terms of price, functionality, workflow, etc but the aim is to
find one that for the user has the least number of these;
(b) try and find a workaround that meets most of the problem, even if it
doesn't wholly solve it - the sine qua non here is usually asking polite
questions on the mailing-list, which the OP has signally failed to do;
(c) change his previously-learnt way of working - gosh, that would be a
wrench;
(d) fork the code (it's GPL, after all), or write new code - that will require
taking time out from using the app to learning how to make one, and from your
own experience you will know that that isn't for everyone;
(e) pay someone to code either an entire app, or the features you need - this
could get expensive, but it is possible.

Those are the only choices there are.  Sean mentioned the contribution one,
but that is problematic - unless you get a good number of people committing
to giving money over a period of (say) five years, it makes very little
impact (I think Michael has talked about this before).  If 50 of us get
together, and donate £200, that is still only £10,000 - not enough to make it
safe for anyone to give up their job and work on RG full-time.  And how does
the coder then split his time between my "essential feature" and yours?

Migratees tend to complain that (d) (otherwise known as "fix it yourself") is
the only choice offered by free coders, but it's not (and of course in
commercial apps you wouldn't even have that option).  When it *is* offered to
those who seem to feel their requirements must take precedence over everyone
else's, it merely reflects the real world - time is limited, and devs are
doing something difficult for free, and their priorities may be different.  A
huge amount of work has been done over the last few months in porting RG to
Qt4, for example, which is far more important for the majority of users.

As Sean said, the OP could have got the information he/she wanted several
posts ago, if the question had been asked politely.  I find things like
calling Luis "Luigi" to be grossly offensive and verging on racist, and no
way excused by any "user frustration".  The OP should go and have his/her
tantrum somewhere else.

You may well get good results from listening to angry users, though I can't
say I have used any of your software to date.  But being too attentive to
noisy users may not necessarily be a good development strategy in the long
run - in my experience, you can waste a lot of valuable time addressing
things that no-one else considers all that important.

--
Pob hwyl / Best wishes

Kevin Donnelly

www.cymraeg.org.uk - Welsh-English autotranslator
www.klebran.org.uk - Gwirydd gramadeg rhydd i'r Gymraeg
www.eurfa.org.uk - Geiriadur rhydd i'r Gymraeg

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[Jan Smith-4]

Sorry, there is one subject I do not see being addressed here: does anyone think that the segment system (with the drama that comes from not being able to extend segments from within the notation editor) is a good idea?

As far as open-source software defense mechanisms, I have to agree that the "selfless dev" story gets pulled out way too often for its own good. Yes, we are moving into a new age in which a lot of software is written for "love" rather than pay. No, parallels to the old world do not help, especially if repeated time and time again.

--

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[Christopher Cherrett]

> If you want something done:
>
> 1) Do it yourself.
>
Agreed!


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[Jan Smith-4]

Between the cryptic source code by multiple absentee coders, and the KDE rewrite? Yes, agreed indeed...

----- Original Message -----
From: "Christopher Cherrett"
To: "Rosegarden-user"
Subject: Re: [Rosegarden-user] about the garden
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 03:59:39 -0600



> If you want something done:
>
> 1) Do it yourself.
>
Agreed!

--

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[Christopher Cherrett]

> Sorry, there is one subject I do not see being addressed here: does
> anyone think that the segment system (with the drama that comes from
> not being able to extend segments from within the notation editor) is
> a good idea?
>

No I think it is a very poor idea that is inflexible.

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[Christopher Cherrett]

Forwarded from Alex Stone

-------- Original Message  --------
Subject: posted
From: alex stone <compose59@...>
To: Christopher Cherrett <stuff@...>
Date: 06/19/09 04:31

> Kevin Donnelly wrote:
> On Friday 19 June 2009 04:19, Christopher Cherrett wrote:
>  
>> The issue is that a user comes in frustrated because the app is acting
>> retarded, they express their frustrations and instead of trying to deal
>> with the user, the story of the selfless open source dev gets pulled out
>> and the issues are often not fixed.
>>    
>
> This is getting it arse-about-face.  I've used various sequencers on different
> platforms, and RG, even though it is not perfect, is the only one that I have
> found easy to use, so it's hardly unintuitive.
>
>  

Alex said:

> Not entirely. I have a cupboard full of commercial software, that had
> problems for professional users, and still do. (One only has to visit
> various fora to see livetrainwrecks in action)
> It's not entirely arse-about-face though. The original OP was
> offensive in his post, but the same could be said for the polite
> questions, and suggestions that have met with summary, and sometimes
> contemptuous dismissal, and an assumption of "You're only a user, and
> it's our application." I've been in linux for 18 months, as it has a
> structure that is more conducive to professional orchestral recording
> and use than anything in the commercial world. Add to that over 25
> years experience of using these apps,  and some users have something
> to bring to the table as well, not just for a stream of "I want "
> feature suggestions, but a genuine interest in seeing the power of
> linux audio put in the hands of new and experienced users alike. Not
> all users are in this for just themselves, but have the community
> spirit of linux in their perspective, and would like to see the devs
> get recognition for standards of excellence above the usual corporate
> offerings.
>  

end--
> Yet RG is being produced by a
> handful of developers, and given away for free, in contrast to commercial
> sequencers you will pay lots of money for.  I'm not sure how many of their
> devs are on their own product's mailing lists, but I daresay you won't get
> them jumping to attention to fix problems just because someone has expressed
> frustration.
>
>  
Alex said:
> Agreed. This works both ways. Polite is not solely the province of
> users. And for experienced users, who themselves could be considered
> professional in their own field, and are willing to donate their own
> time into a project, the response coming back can be considered just
> as derisory or contemptuously dismissive.
>
>  
end--

> The "selfless open source dev" is not a cliché to disarm criticism - it's a
> reflection of the fact that people who are migrating to Linux from legacy
> platforms seem to want the good bits (responsive devs, high-functionality
> non-pirated apps, open code, innovation) without accepting that there are
> duties alongside them - politeness, patience, gratitude (the standard values
> we need in any community, in fact).  The consumerist "gratify me now!"
> doesn't really fit in here (and of course, even though the commercial apps
> pretend that for them it does, they don't let it fit in there either if it
> doesn't mesh with their business plan).
>
>  

Alex said:

> Partially agree. Devs have a right to a life like anyone else. And i'd
> fully support them for that. But i will say in my 18 months in linux,
> that some devs, being human like anyone else, can respond from the
> perspective of "Ivory Tower", and "It's my baby, leave it alone", and
> "I demand respect because i'm doing this for free." Some users, with
> the good intent of nourishing and helping to develop applications in
> our linux paradise, put just as much time in doing donkey work, or
> carefully lay out good, generic, workflow patterns that will benefit
> all, including, as i've recently discovered, devs, who once they see a
> workflow paradigm, find it's easier to code, because they understand A
> all the way to B, not just a chunk in the middle.
>
> I would agree however, and from long experience, that the commercial
> world has only one intent, that being profit, and what they can get
> out of adding a new feature. I, and 71 other users, got together many
> years ago, and gave a full presentation of workflow related tools to
> Steinberg. We were all full timers, from rock to orchestral, and were
> subsequently and completely ignored, until those very features made it
> into the app over 12 years later because Steinberg were leaking
> customers, as a direct result of ignoring the users.
>
>  

end--
> The issues may not be fixed because no-one else is having them (wonky user
> hardware, for instance), or they don't particularly attract the dev, or he
> just doesn't have time (for instance, Chris has a day-job and a young family,
> and Michael is having to do a succession of jobs).
>
>  
Alex said
> And i'd be the last to want either of them to lose out in their family
> lives, or employment, as a result of spending too much time on coding
> for us. Priorities for life are important, and above any code desires.
> It's the same for experienced users who allocate large chunks of their
> own valuable time to contribute to projects, with the wider linux
> world in mind. Sometimes, personal considerations change our
> circumstances, devs and interested users alike.
>
>  
end--

>  In that case, the user
> has a number of choices:
> (a) stop using the app, and go and find another one  - *all* apps will have
> problems in terms of price, functionality, workflow, etc but the aim is to
> find one that for the user has the least number of these;
> (b) try and find a workaround that meets most of the problem, even if it
> doesn't wholly solve it - the sine qua non here is usually asking polite
> questions on the mailing-list, which the OP has signally failed to do;
> (c) change his previously-learnt way of working - gosh, that would be a
> wrench;
> (d) fork the code (it's GPL, after all), or write new code - that will require
> taking time out from using the app to learning how to make one, and from your
> own experience you will know that that isn't for everyone;
> (e) pay someone to code either an entire app, or the features you need - this
> could get expensive, but it is possible.
>
>  

Alex said:
> All good suggestions. Seems a shame that a more openminded dev/user
> relationship, based on the same goal of excellence doesn't seem to
> figure in this. A project requires a complete set of skills for the
> intended result, and that includes "code" coding, and experienced user
> workflow "coding". If the two don't agree, or intent of direction is
> different, then refining a codebase into a new direction, based on a
> different set of project values, is sometimes the only course.
>
>  
end--
> Those are the only choices there are.  Sean mentioned the contribution one,
> but that is problematic - unless you get a good number of people committing
> to giving money over a period of (say) five years, it makes very little
> impact (I think Michael has talked about this before).  If 50 of us get
> together, and donate £200, that is still only £10,000 - not enough to make it
> safe for anyone to give up their job and work on RG full-time.  And how does
> the coder then split his time between my "essential feature" and yours?
>
>  
Alex said:

> Correct. So how do we change this paradigm? With a project team that
> has a complete set of skills for end intent, and equal respect between
> all members of the team, in recognition of the variety of project
> requirements needed to achieve success. For example, not all users
> write for orchestra, or 4 on the floor, or other genres. That takes
> pressure off the few that continue to hold things together (and the
> small but determined RG team have my continued respect here), but it
> also requires a more openminded attitude from all contributors,
> without the "it's MY baby" attitude. That's up to the individual or
> the team, but then those who have skills to contribute may not wish to
> work, and put their valuable time in, under those conditions.
>
>
>  

end--

> Migratees tend to complain that (d) (otherwise known as "fix it yourself") is
> the only choice offered by free coders, but it's not (and of course in
> commercial apps you wouldn't even have that option).  When it *is* offered to
> those who seem to feel their requirements must take precedence over everyone
> else's, it merely reflects the real world - time is limited, and devs are
> doing something difficult for free, and their priorities may be different.  A
> huge amount of work has been done over the last few months in porting RG to
> Qt4, for example, which is far more important for the majority of users.
>
>  

Alex said:
> I agree with this. However, in the process of doing this, user input
> may be at its most important, to not only ease the transition with
> some degree of contribution, but enhance the current toolset in the
> process.
>
>  
end--
> As Sean said, the OP could have got the information he/she wanted several
> posts ago, if the question had been asked politely.  I find things like
> calling Luis "Luigi" to be grossly offensive and verging on racist, and no
> way excused by any "user frustration".  The OP should go and have his/her
> tantrum somewhere else.
>
>  
Alex said:
> Totally agree. The OP had points to make, but did so badly, and the
> racism was completely uncalled for.
>
>  
end--
> You may well get good results from listening to angry users, though I can't
> say I have used any of your software to date.  But being too attentive to
> noisy users may not necessarily be a good development strategy in the long
> run - in my experience, you can waste a lot of valuable time addressing
> things that no-one else considers all that important.
>
>  
Alex said:
> Funny thing is, and Chris and I are together in the same project,
> we've had a lot of enthusiasm for what we're doing, and some
> interesting comments about how far we've got. When we release, no
> doubt we'll get some overly enthusiastic users, but we're both thick
> skinned, and will look beyond the delivery to what the message
> actually contains.
>
>  



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[Brian Clem]

Amen to Christopher and Kevin.  Well said.   I hope we can keep what was said by Kevin and Christopher in mind and move forward in good spirits.  

On Fri, Jun 19, 2009 at 6:53 AM, Christopher Cherrett <stuff@...> wrote:

Forwarded from Alex Stone

-------- Original Message  --------
Subject: posted
From: alex stone <compose59@...>
To: Christopher Cherrett <stuff@...>
Date: 06/19/09 04:31

> Kevin Donnelly wrote:
> On Friday 19 June 2009 04:19, Christopher Cherrett wrote:
>
>> The issue is that a user comes in frustrated because the app is acting
>> retarded, they express their frustrations and instead of trying to deal
>> with the user, the story of the selfless open source dev gets pulled out
>> and the issues are often not fixed.
>>
>
> This is getting it arse-about-face.  I've used various sequencers on different
> platforms, and RG, even though it is not perfect, is the only one that I have
> found easy to use, so it's hardly unintuitive.
>
>

Alex said:
> Not entirely. I have a cupboard full of commercial software, that had
> problems for professional users, and still do. (One only has to visit
> various fora to see livetrainwrecks in action)
> It's not entirely arse-about-face though. The original OP was
> offensive in his post, but the same could be said for the polite
> questions, and suggestions that have met with summary, and sometimes
> contemptuous dismissal, and an assumption of "You're only a user, and
> it's our application." I've been in linux for 18 months, as it has a
> structure that is more conducive to professional orchestral recording
> and use than anything in the commercial world. Add to that over 25
> years experience of using these apps,  and some users have something
> to bring to the table as well, not just for a stream of "I want "
> feature suggestions, but a genuine interest in seeing the power of
> linux audio put in the hands of new and experienced users alike. Not
> all users are in this for just themselves, but have the community
> spirit of linux in their perspective, and would like to see the devs
> get recognition for standards of excellence above the usual corporate
> offerings.
>
end--

> Yet RG is being produced by a
> handful of developers, and given away for free, in contrast to commercial
> sequencers you will pay lots of money for.  I'm not sure how many of their
> devs are on their own product's mailing lists, but I daresay you won't get
> them jumping to attention to fix problems just because someone has expressed
> frustration.
>
>

Alex said:
> Agreed. This works both ways. Polite is not solely the province of
> users. And for experienced users, who themselves could be considered
> professional in their own field, and are willing to donate their own
> time into a project, the response coming back can be considered just
> as derisory or contemptuously dismissive.
>
>
end--

> The "selfless open source dev" is not a cliché to disarm criticism - it's a
> reflection of the fact that people who are migrating to Linux from legacy
> platforms seem to want the good bits (responsive devs, high-functionality
> non-pirated apps, open code, innovation) without accepting that there are
> duties alongside them - politeness, patience, gratitude (the standard values
> we need in any community, in fact).  The consumerist "gratify me now!"
> doesn't really fit in here (and of course, even though the commercial apps
> pretend that for them it does, they don't let it fit in there either if it
> doesn't mesh with their business plan).
>
>

Alex said:
> Partially agree. Devs have a right to a life like anyone else. And i'd
> fully support them for that. But i will say in my 18 months in linux,
> that some devs, being human like anyone else, can respond from the
> perspective of "Ivory Tower", and "It's my baby, leave it alone", and
> "I demand respect because i'm doing this for free." Some users, with
> the good intent of nourishing and helping to develop applications in
> our linux paradise, put just as much time in doing donkey work, or
> carefully lay out good, generic, workflow patterns that will benefit
> all, including, as i've recently discovered, devs, who once they see a
> workflow paradigm, find it's easier to code, because they understand A
> all the way to B, not just a chunk in the middle.
>
> I would agree however, and from long experience, that the commercial
> world has only one intent, that being profit, and what they can get
> out of adding a new feature. I, and 71 other users, got together many
> years ago, and gave a full presentation of workflow related tools to
> Steinberg. We were all full timers, from rock to orchestral, and were
> subsequently and completely ignored, until those very features made it
> into the app over 12 years later because Steinberg were leaking
> customers, as a direct result of ignoring the users.
>
>
end--

> The issues may not be fixed because no-one else is having them (wonky user
> hardware, for instance), or they don't particularly attract the dev, or he
> just doesn't have time (for instance, Chris has a day-job and a young family,
> and Michael is having to do a succession of jobs).
>
>

Alex said
> And i'd be the last to want either of them to lose out in their family
> lives, or employment, as a result of spending too much time on coding
> for us. Priorities for life are important, and above any code desires.
> It's the same for experienced users who allocate large chunks of their
> own valuable time to contribute to projects, with the wider linux
> world in mind. Sometimes, personal considerations change our
> circumstances, devs and interested users alike.
>
>
end--

>  In that case, the user
> has a number of choices:
> (a) stop using the app, and go and find another one  - *all* apps will have
> problems in terms of price, functionality, workflow, etc but the aim is to
> find one that for the user has the least number of these;
> (b) try and find a workaround that meets most of the problem, even if it
> doesn't wholly solve it - the sine qua non here is usually asking polite
> questions on the mailing-list, which the OP has signally failed to do;
> (c) change his previously-learnt way of working - gosh, that would be a
> wrench;
> (d) fork the code (it's GPL, after all), or write new code - that will require
> taking time out from using the app to learning how to make one, and from your
> own experience you will know that that isn't for everyone;
> (e) pay someone to code either an entire app, or the features you need - this
> could get expensive, but it is possible.
>
>

Alex said:
> All good suggestions. Seems a shame that a more openminded dev/user
> relationship, based on the same goal of excellence doesn't seem to
> figure in this. A project requires a complete set of skills for the
> intended result, and that includes "code" coding, and experienced user
> workflow "coding". If the two don't agree, or intent of direction is
> different, then refining a codebase into a new direction, based on a
> different set of project values, is sometimes the only course.
>
>
end--

> Those are the only choices there are.  Sean mentioned the contribution one,
> but that is problematic - unless you get a good number of people committing
> to giving money over a period of (say) five years, it makes very little
> impact (I think Michael has talked about this before).  If 50 of us get
> together, and donate £200, that is still only £10,000 - not enough to make it
> safe for anyone to give up their job and work on RG full-time.  And how does
> the coder then split his time between my "essential feature" and yours?
>
>

Alex said:
> Correct. So how do we change this paradigm? With a project team that
> has a complete set of skills for end intent, and equal respect between
> all members of the team, in recognition of the variety of project
> requirements needed to achieve success. For example, not all users
> write for orchestra, or 4 on the floor, or other genres. That takes
> pressure off the few that continue to hold things together (and the
> small but determined RG team have my continued respect here), but it
> also requires a more openminded attitude from all contributors,
> without the "it's MY baby" attitude. That's up to the individual or
> the team, but then those who have skills to contribute may not wish to
> work, and put their valuable time in, under those conditions.
>
>
>
end--

> Migratees tend to complain that (d) (otherwise known as "fix it yourself") is
> the only choice offered by free coders, but it's not (and of course in
> commercial apps you wouldn't even have that option).  When it *is* offered to
> those who seem to feel their requirements must take precedence over everyone
> else's, it merely reflects the real world - time is limited, and devs are
> doing something difficult for free, and their priorities may be different.  A
> huge amount of work has been done over the last few months in porting RG to
> Qt4, for example, which is far more important for the majority of users.
>
>

Alex said:
> I agree with this. However, in the process of doing this, user input
> may be at its most important, to not only ease the transition with
> some degree of contribution, but enhance the current toolset in the
> process.
>
>
end--

> As Sean said, the OP could have got the information he/she wanted several
> posts ago, if the question had been asked politely.  I find things like
> calling Luis "Luigi" to be grossly offensive and verging on racist, and no
> way excused by any "user frustration".  The OP should go and have his/her
> tantrum somewhere else.
>
>

Alex said:
> Totally agree. The OP had points to make, but did so badly, and the
> racism was completely uncalled for.
>
>
end--

> You may well get good results from listening to angry users, though I can't
> say I have used any of your software to date.  But being too attentive to
> noisy users may not necessarily be a good development strategy in the long
> run - in my experience, you can waste a lot of valuable time addressing
> things that no-one else considers all that important.
>
>

Alex said:
> Funny thing is, and Chris and I are together in the same project,
> we've had a lot of enthusiasm for what we're doing, and some
> interesting comments about how far we've got. When we release, no
> doubt we'll get some overly enthusiastic users, but we're both thick
> skinned, and will look beyond the delivery to what the message
> actually contains.

>
>



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[cannam]

On Fri, Jun 19, 2009 at 9:36 AM, Jan Smith<selfclone@...> wrote:
> Well, did you like the segment system, and the need to exit the
> notation editor just so you can extend a "segment"? That's what really got
> me annoyed in the first place (along with a few others).

You don't have to close the notation editor.  Just switch to the main
window and drag the segment edge.  I imagine a lot of users also start
out by dragging a long, empty segment to start work in.

That said, I can't imagine anyone arguing that being unable to extend
a segment from within the notation editor is a good feature.  It's
just something that hasn't seen an effective solution yet.  You don't
always want segments to extend automatically when you reach their end;
many sequencing structures rely on having a precise fixed duration for
any given segment.

I can think of a very nice way to handle segment extension in the
notation view from the user point of view... but I absolutely can't
devote time myself to substantial features until the Qt4 port is
significantly further advanced.

For what it's worth, the continuously-extending notation staff is a
feature of several other Linux based notation programs, which could
well be worth a try (I hesitate to name names because I can't remember
for sure which way each program works, but there are many listed at
e.g. linux-sound.org).  It was also the way the very first "X11
Rosegarden" worked.  The current Rosegarden has more of a classic
sequencer structure than that, however.

> monster as in it starts all the KDE daemons.

The Qt4 version will not do this.


Chris

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Crystal Reports - New Free Runtime and 30 Day Trial
Check out the new simplified licensing option that enables unlimited
royalty-free distribution of the report engine for externally facing
server and web deployment.
http://p.sf.net/sfu/businessobjects
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