advice needed from litigious Rhodies

[stanleyl]

last time things got bad, to broaden our price marking base  we went into recycling Rhodes

this time, to broaden our base and not keep losing those prospects who want a little bit bigger boat (since no Rhodes took us up on the Rhodes 27 projected) we bought a Catalina 25 and have torn it apart.   we are going to try and make it into a Catalina-Rhodes hybrid:   IMF, combo keel/cb, electric tilting motor lift, etc.

it is being sold as a used Catalina 25 that we have recycled and upgraded.    Can Frank butler (he owns Catalina) legally complain?

ss



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[Rick-139]

Stan,

Doesn't sound any different than companies that supe up sports cars.  How
much for the suped up Catalina?

Rick

On Wed, Nov 4, 2009 at 1:16 PM, stan <stan@...> wrote:

> last time things got bad, to broaden our price marking base  we went into
> recycling Rhodes
>
> this time, to broaden our base and not keep losing those prospects who want
> a little bit bigger boat (since no Rhodes took us up on the Rhodes 27
> projected) we bought a Catalina 25 and have torn it apart.   we are going to
> try and make it into a Catalina-Rhodes hybrid:   IMF, combo keel/cb,
> electric tilting motor lift, etc.
>
> it is being sold as a used Catalina 25 that we have recycled and upgraded.
>    Can Frank butler (he owns Catalina) legally complain?
>
> ss
>
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> To subscribe/unsubscribe go to
> http://www.rhodes22.org/mailman/listinfo/rhodes22-list
>
> For the list Charter and help with using the mailing list and archives go
> to http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> __________________________________________________
>

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[Arthur H. Czerwonky]

Stan,

A premier approach to broadening the markerplace.  Bravo for your insight!  I suspect Catalina owners would love to have the Rhodes features thru an upgrade program.

BTW, my small ad piece in November Sail has not yet produced prospects.

Imagine, your suspected nemisis is cheering for your success!

I don't really think the lack of results in the R27 project was from lack of confidence, rather lack of capital - this would be a huge leap in faith.  The Rhoadie fleet wisdom, in deferring such a bold move to a future point, has been justified, while after the fact, with this sickened economy, which some predictors expect to end no sooner that a year from now.

I hope that the Catalina venture is not an indication that the monumental effort in Annapolis did not pan out.  I suspect your fleet cheerleaders would appreciate knowing how the show worked in producing qualified buyers.

Art

-----Original Message-----

>From: stan <stan@...>
>Sent: Nov 4, 2009 1:16 PM
>To: The Rhodes 22 mail list <rhodes22-list@...>
>Subject: [Rhodes22-list] advice needed from litigious Rhodies
>
>last time things got bad, to broaden our price marking base  we went into recycling Rhodes
>
>this time, to broaden our base and not keep losing those prospects who want a little bit bigger boat (since no Rhodes took us up on the Rhodes 27 projected) we bought a Catalina 25 and have torn it apart.   we are going to try and make it into a Catalina-Rhodes hybrid:   IMF, combo keel/cb, electric tilting motor lift, etc.
>
>it is being sold as a used Catalina 25 that we have recycled and upgraded.    Can Frank butler (he owns Catalina) legally complain?
>
>ss
>
>
>
>__________________________________________________
>To subscribe/unsubscribe go to http://www.rhodes22.org/mailman/listinfo/rhodes22-list
>
>For the list Charter and help with using the mailing list and archives go to http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>__________________________________________________

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[jlock]

On Nov 4, 2009, at 13:16, stan wrote:

> last time things got bad, to broaden our price marking base  we went  
> into recycling Rhodes
>
> this time, to broaden our base and not keep losing those prospects  
> who want a little bit bigger boat (since no Rhodes took us up on the  
> Rhodes 27 projected) we bought a Catalina 25 and have torn it  
> apart.   we are going to try and make it into a Catalina-Rhodes  
> hybrid:   IMF, combo keel/cb, electric tilting motor lift, etc.
>
> it is being sold as a used Catalina 25 that we have recycled and  
> upgraded.    Can Frank butler (he owns Catalina) legally complain?

I don't see how that would be different than after-market efforts like  
AMG does on Mercedes (as one example).  Take a well known brand, beef  
it up, and sell it as a value-added product.  So, what's the thinking  
behind this... a new business model for General Boats?  Expanding the  
recycling concept to include other brands enhanced with GB  
engineering?  Hmmm... you may be on to something there Stan!

Cheers!
John Lock
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
s/v Pandion - '79 Rhodes 22
Lake Sinclair, GA
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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[Arthur H. Czerwonky]

Rick,

I wonder who could know - a typical Catalina owner will be the best judge.  BTW, no secret that we can be helpful in promoting this if we have posted pictures and info.  I have toyed seriously with putting the IMF on a MacGregor to test for stability.  Anyone who has had the thrill of raising a MacGregor mainsail from their awkward deck station would understand the value in this.  There are alot of Macgregor owners who would thirst at this prospect - talk about a market for the IMF.  I mention this knowing that Tootle certified that Stan no longer has new IMF capability.  Hopefully this is not true.

Art

-----Original Message-----

>From: Rick <sloopblueheron@...>
>Sent: Nov 4, 2009 2:35 PM
>To: The Rhodes 22 Email List <rhodes22-list@...>
>Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] advice needed from litigious Rhodies
>
>Stan,
>
>Doesn't sound any different than companies that supe up sports cars.  How
>much for the suped up Catalina?
>
>Rick
>
>On Wed, Nov 4, 2009 at 1:16 PM, stan <stan@...> wrote:
>
>> last time things got bad, to broaden our price marking base  we went into
>> recycling Rhodes
>>
>> this time, to broaden our base and not keep losing those prospects who want
>> a little bit bigger boat (since no Rhodes took us up on the Rhodes 27
>> projected) we bought a Catalina 25 and have torn it apart.   we are going to
>> try and make it into a Catalina-Rhodes hybrid:   IMF, combo keel/cb,
>> electric tilting motor lift, etc.
>>
>> it is being sold as a used Catalina 25 that we have recycled and upgraded.
>>    Can Frank butler (he owns Catalina) legally complain?
>>
>> ss
>>
>>
>>
>> __________________________________________________
>> To subscribe/unsubscribe go to
>> http://www.rhodes22.org/mailman/listinfo/rhodes22-list
>>
>> For the list Charter and help with using the mailing list and archives go
>> to http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>> __________________________________________________
>>
>__________________________________________________
>To subscribe/unsubscribe go to http://www.rhodes22.org/mailman/listinfo/rhodes22-list
>
>For the list Charter and help with using the mailing list and archives go to http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>__________________________________________________

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[R22MikeW]

Stan,

Can Butler complain?  Sure, complaints cost little (just look at the traffic
on the list.)  As far as legal standing, he may not allow you to brand it as
a Catalina once you have modified it (anyone can sue, justified or not.)
Otherwise, he would probably support your endeavors since it effectively
limits the size of the Rhodes fleet / market, a good thing if you are
selling a competing product.  If I were selling Catalinas, I might even
boast that a competitor had chosen to remanufacture Catalina hulls instead
of their own (Rhodes hulls), a clear indication of the quality of the
Catalina product.  Hmm ... just my $0.02.

Mike
s/v Shanghai'd Summer ('81)
Nissequogue River, NY

From: "stan" Wednesday, November 04, 2009 1:16 PM

> last time things got bad, to broaden our price marking base  we went into
> recycling Rhodes
>
> this time, to broaden our base and not keep losing those prospects who
> want a little bit bigger boat (since no Rhodes took us up on the Rhodes 27
> projected) we bought a Catalina 25 and have torn it apart.   we are going
> to try and make it into a Catalina-Rhodes hybrid:   IMF, combo keel/cb,
> electric tilting motor lift, etc.
>
> it is being sold as a used Catalina 25 that we have recycled and upgraded.
> Can Frank butler (he owns Catalina) legally complain?
>
> ss
>
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> To subscribe/unsubscribe go to
> http://www.rhodes22.org/mailman/listinfo/rhodes22-list
>
> For the list Charter and help with using the mailing list and archives go
> to http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> __________________________________________________
>

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[R22MikeW]

Art,

One cannot evaluate an advertising campaign in days or even weeks,
especially for a single insertion.  These things take time and continued
exposure.  Now you are going to find out the true cost of a printed media ad
campaign!

Bonne chance,

Mike
s/v Shanghai'd Summer ('81)
Nissequogue River, NY

From: "Arthur H. Czerwonky"  Wednesday, November 04, 2009 2:36 PM
{clip}
> BTW, my small ad piece in November Sail has not yet produced prospects.
>
> Imagine, your suspected nemisis is cheering for your success!
{clip}
> Art


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[Rick-139]

Art,

An IMF mast would probably cause a water ballast MacGregor to turtle.

Please explain: "Stan no longer has new IMF capability."

Rick

On Wed, Nov 4, 2009 at 2:51 PM, Arthur H. Czerwonky <czerwonky@...
> wrote:

> Rick,
>
> I wonder who could know - a typical Catalina owner will be the best judge.
>  BTW, no secret that we can be helpful in promoting this if we have posted
> pictures and info.  I have toyed seriously with putting the IMF on a
> MacGregor to test for stability.  Anyone who has had the thrill of raising a
> MacGregor mainsail from their awkward deck station would understand the
> value in this.  There are alot of Macgregor owners who would thirst at this
> prospect - talk about a market for the IMF.  I mention this knowing that
> Tootle certified that Stan no longer has new IMF capability.  Hopefully this
> is not true.
>
> Art
>
> -----Original Message-----
> >From: Rick <sloopblueheron@...>
> >Sent: Nov 4, 2009 2:35 PM
> >To: The Rhodes 22 Email List <rhodes22-list@...>
> >Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] advice needed from litigious Rhodies
> >
> >Stan,
> >
> >Doesn't sound any different than companies that supe up sports cars.  How
> >much for the suped up Catalina?
> >
> >Rick
> >
> >On Wed, Nov 4, 2009 at 1:16 PM, stan <stan@...> wrote:
> >
> >> last time things got bad, to broaden our price marking base  we went
> into
> >> recycling Rhodes
> >>
> >> this time, to broaden our base and not keep losing those prospects who
> want
> >> a little bit bigger boat (since no Rhodes took us up on the Rhodes 27
> >> projected) we bought a Catalina 25 and have torn it apart.   we are
> going to
> >> try and make it into a Catalina-Rhodes hybrid:   IMF, combo keel/cb,
> >> electric tilting motor lift, etc.
> >>
> >> it is being sold as a used Catalina 25 that we have recycled and
> upgraded.
> >>    Can Frank butler (he owns Catalina) legally complain?
> >>
> >> ss
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> __________________________________________________
> >> To subscribe/unsubscribe go to
> >> http://www.rhodes22.org/mailman/listinfo/rhodes22-list
> >>
> >> For the list Charter and help with using the mailing list and archives
> go
> >> to http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> >> __________________________________________________
> >>
> >__________________________________________________
> >To subscribe/unsubscribe go to
> http://www.rhodes22.org/mailman/listinfo/rhodes22-list
> >
> >For the list Charter and help with using the mailing list and archives go
> to http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> >__________________________________________________
>
> __________________________________________________
> To subscribe/unsubscribe go to
> http://www.rhodes22.org/mailman/listinfo/rhodes22-list
>
> For the list Charter and help with using the mailing list and archives go
> to http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> __________________________________________________
>

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[Arthur H. Czerwonky]

Rick,

Consider that the water adds 1400# to the ballast, other stability questions not considered.  Validating the stability issue would be easy - with mast and sail and ballast in place, pull the mast toward the water and determine at what point the tension on the mast line zeroes out.  If the tension remains, the boat will have a natural positive righting moment.

This does not allow for the dumbie who, like others before, operate the boat improperly or who cannot read the directions.

Macgregor will sell the new spreader assembly so that the mast can have the stays properly aligned, GB might obtain for free as a professional courtesy fm MacG.

Make sense?

Art

-----Original Message-----

>From: Rick <sloopblueheron@...>
>Sent: Nov 4, 2009 3:06 PM
>To: The Rhodes 22 Email List <rhodes22-list@...>
>Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] advice needed from litigious Rhodies
>
>Art,
>
>An IMF mast would probably cause a water ballast MacGregor to turtle.
>
>Please explain: "Stan no longer has new IMF capability."
>
>Rick
>
>On Wed, Nov 4, 2009 at 2:51 PM, Arthur H. Czerwonky <czerwonky@...
>> wrote:
>
>> Rick,
>>
>> I wonder who could know - a typical Catalina owner will be the best judge.
>>  BTW, no secret that we can be helpful in promoting this if we have posted
>> pictures and info.  I have toyed seriously with putting the IMF on a
>> MacGregor to test for stability.  Anyone who has had the thrill of raising a
>> MacGregor mainsail from their awkward deck station would understand the
>> value in this.  There are alot of Macgregor owners who would thirst at this
>> prospect - talk about a market for the IMF.  I mention this knowing that
>> Tootle certified that Stan no longer has new IMF capability.  Hopefully this
>> is not true.
>>
>> Art
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> >From: Rick <sloopblueheron@...>
>> >Sent: Nov 4, 2009 2:35 PM
>> >To: The Rhodes 22 Email List <rhodes22-list@...>
>> >Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] advice needed from litigious Rhodies
>> >
>> >Stan,
>> >
>> >Doesn't sound any different than companies that supe up sports cars.  How
>> >much for the suped up Catalina?
>> >
>> >Rick
>> >
>> >On Wed, Nov 4, 2009 at 1:16 PM, stan <stan@...> wrote:
>> >
>> >> last time things got bad, to broaden our price marking base  we went
>> into
>> >> recycling Rhodes
>> >>
>> >> this time, to broaden our base and not keep losing those prospects who
>> want
>> >> a little bit bigger boat (since no Rhodes took us up on the Rhodes 27
>> >> projected) we bought a Catalina 25 and have torn it apart.   we are
>> going to
>> >> try and make it into a Catalina-Rhodes hybrid:   IMF, combo keel/cb,
>> >> electric tilting motor lift, etc.
>> >>
>> >> it is being sold as a used Catalina 25 that we have recycled and
>> upgraded.
>> >>    Can Frank butler (he owns Catalina) legally complain?
>> >>
>> >> ss
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> __________________________________________________
>> >> To subscribe/unsubscribe go to
>> >> http://www.rhodes22.org/mailman/listinfo/rhodes22-list
>> >>
>> >> For the list Charter and help with using the mailing list and archives
>> go
>> >> to http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>> >> __________________________________________________
>> >>
>> >__________________________________________________
>> >To subscribe/unsubscribe go to
>> http://www.rhodes22.org/mailman/listinfo/rhodes22-list
>> >
>> >For the list Charter and help with using the mailing list and archives go
>> to http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>> >__________________________________________________
>>
>> __________________________________________________
>> To subscribe/unsubscribe go to
>> http://www.rhodes22.org/mailman/listinfo/rhodes22-list
>>
>> For the list Charter and help with using the mailing list and archives go
>> to http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>> __________________________________________________
>>
>__________________________________________________
>To subscribe/unsubscribe go to http://www.rhodes22.org/mailman/listinfo/rhodes22-list
>
>For the list Charter and help with using the mailing list and archives go to http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>__________________________________________________

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[Arthur H. Czerwonky]

Mike,

Did you see the ad?  It is a simple placement as a for-sale offer for a simple phone response.  It was never intended as a significant ad piece or promotion.  A similar approach could tested to offer a "significantly upgraded" Catalina or other brand.  Initially, Stan might want to delay GB identification with the upgraded product.

I suspect such an ad would need to be repeated in a yearful of issues as a valid test, I agree.

Out on Boca Ciege with Ron on Serenity this morning, what a sail!  I will need to gain weight to be more effective 'rail meat'.  Y'all come to sunny Florida!

Art



-----Original Message-----

>From: "Michael D. Weisner" <mweisner@...>
>Sent: Nov 4, 2009 3:02 PM
>To: The Rhodes 22 Email List <rhodes22-list@...>
>Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] November Sail ad
>
>Art,
>
>One cannot evaluate an advertising campaign in days or even weeks,
>especially for a single insertion.  These things take time and continued
>exposure.  Now you are going to find out the true cost of a printed media ad
>campaign!
>
>Bonne chance,
>
>Mike
>s/v Shanghai'd Summer ('81)
>Nissequogue River, NY
>
>From: "Arthur H. Czerwonky"  Wednesday, November 04, 2009 2:36 PM
>{clip}
>> BTW, my small ad piece in November Sail has not yet produced prospects.
>>
>> Imagine, your suspected nemisis is cheering for your success!
>{clip}
>> Art
>
>
>--
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>We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam.
>SPAMfighter has removed 7488 of my spam emails to date.
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>
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[Rob Lowe]

John,
Stan will have to say for sure, but I would think part of this effort is due to the lack of acceptable Rhodes hulls available to recycle.  He's going to have to consider the "new boat guarantee" too.  Plus, there are a lot of Catalinas out there. - rob



I don't see how that would be different than after-market efforts like  
AMG does on Mercedes (as one example).  Take a well known brand, beef  
it up, and sell it as a value-added product.  So, what's the thinking  
behind this... a new business model for General Boats?  Expanding the  
recycling concept to include other brands enhanced with GB  
engineering?  Hmmm... you may be on to something there Stan!


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[Darrell Stout]

My company had a Cessna 414. We had a Ram conversion done that altered the wing, props and engines.. All the goodies changed not only the performance but the look. They call it a "Cessna 414 Ram Conversion". If you call it "Catalina Rhodes Conversion" there should be no problem. You can see at ramaircraft.com
Darrell Stout
Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

-----Original Message-----
From: Rick <sloopblueheron@...>
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 2009 15:06:23
To: The Rhodes 22 Email List<rhodes22-list@...>
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] advice needed from litigious Rhodies

Art,

An IMF mast would probably cause a water ballast MacGregor to turtle.

Please explain: "Stan no longer has new IMF capability."

Rick

On Wed, Nov 4, 2009 at 2:51 PM, Arthur H. Czerwonky <czerwonky@...
> wrote:

> Rick,
>
> I wonder who could know - a typical Catalina owner will be the best judge.
>  BTW, no secret that we can be helpful in promoting this if we have posted
> pictures and info.  I have toyed seriously with putting the IMF on a
> MacGregor to test for stability.  Anyone who has had the thrill of raising a
> MacGregor mainsail from their awkward deck station would understand the
> value in this.  There are alot of Macgregor owners who would thirst at this
> prospect - talk about a market for the IMF.  I mention this knowing that
> Tootle certified that Stan no longer has new IMF capability.  Hopefully this
> is not true.
>
> Art
>
> -----Original Message-----
> >From: Rick <sloopblueheron@...>
> >Sent: Nov 4, 2009 2:35 PM
> >To: The Rhodes 22 Email List <rhodes22-list@...>
> >Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] advice needed from litigious Rhodies
> >
> >Stan,
> >
> >Doesn't sound any different than companies that supe up sports cars.  How
> >much for the suped up Catalina?
> >
> >Rick
> >
> >On Wed, Nov 4, 2009 at 1:16 PM, stan <stan@...> wrote:
> >
> >> last time things got bad, to broaden our price marking base  we went
> into
> >> recycling Rhodes
> >>
> >> this time, to broaden our base and not keep losing those prospects who
> want
> >> a little bit bigger boat (since no Rhodes took us up on the Rhodes 27
> >> projected) we bought a Catalina 25 and have torn it apart.   we are
> going to
> >> try and make it into a Catalina-Rhodes hybrid:   IMF, combo keel/cb,
> >> electric tilting motor lift, etc.
> >>
> >> it is being sold as a used Catalina 25 that we have recycled and
> upgraded.
> >>    Can Frank butler (he owns Catalina) legally complain?
> >>
> >> ss
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> __________________________________________________
> >> To subscribe/unsubscribe go to
> >> http://www.rhodes22.org/mailman/listinfo/rhodes22-list
> >>
> >> For the list Charter and help with using the mailing list and archives
> go
> >> to http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> >> __________________________________________________
> >>
> >__________________________________________________
> >To subscribe/unsubscribe go to
> http://www.rhodes22.org/mailman/listinfo/rhodes22-list
> >
> >For the list Charter and help with using the mailing list and archives go
> to http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> >__________________________________________________
>
> __________________________________________________
> To subscribe/unsubscribe go to
> http://www.rhodes22.org/mailman/listinfo/rhodes22-list
>
> For the list Charter and help with using the mailing list and archives go
> to http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> __________________________________________________
>

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__________________________________________________

[Leland]

Rick,

1,400 pounds (or l,l50 pounds)

http://www.macgregor26.com/water_ballast/water_ballast.htm

is the same weight no matter if it's lead or water.  The only real
difference is that lead takes up eleven times less space than water.
Our Rhodes sailboats have 700 pounds of ballast.  The lower the weight
the more the righting capability but weight is weight no matter if it's
water or lead.  Water ballast works, it just takes up eleven times more
space than lead.

I welcome disagreement from the physicists and engineers out there.

Lee
1986 Rhodes22  At Ease
Kent Island, MD

-----Original Message-----
From: rhodes22-list-bounces@...
[mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces@...] On Behalf Of Arthur H.
Czerwonky
Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 3:28 PM
To: The Rhodes 22 Email List
Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] advice needed from litigious Rhodies

Rick,

Consider that the water adds 1400# to the ballast, other stability
questions not considered.  Validating the stability issue would be easy
- with mast and sail and ballast in place, pull the mast toward the
water and determine at what point the tension on the mast line zeroes
out.  If the tension remains, the boat will have a natural positive
righting moment.

This does not allow for the dumbie who, like others before, operate the
boat improperly or who cannot read the directions.

Macgregor will sell the new spreader assembly so that the mast can have
the stays properly aligned, GB might obtain for free as a professional
courtesy fm MacG.

Make sense?

Art

-----Original Message-----

>From: Rick <sloopblueheron@...>
>Sent: Nov 4, 2009 3:06 PM
>To: The Rhodes 22 Email List <rhodes22-list@...>
>Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] advice needed from litigious Rhodies
>
>Art,
>
>An IMF mast would probably cause a water ballast MacGregor to turtle.
>
>Please explain: "Stan no longer has new IMF capability."
>
>Rick
>
>On Wed, Nov 4, 2009 at 2:51 PM, Arthur H. Czerwonky

<czerwonky@...
>> wrote:
>
>> Rick,
>>
>> I wonder who could know - a typical Catalina owner will be the best
judge.
>>  BTW, no secret that we can be helpful in promoting this if we have
posted
>> pictures and info.  I have toyed seriously with putting the IMF on a
>> MacGregor to test for stability.  Anyone who has had the thrill of
raising a
>> MacGregor mainsail from their awkward deck station would understand
the
>> value in this.  There are alot of Macgregor owners who would thirst
at this
>> prospect - talk about a market for the IMF.  I mention this knowing
that
>> Tootle certified that Stan no longer has new IMF capability.
Hopefully this

>> is not true.
>>
>> Art
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> >From: Rick <sloopblueheron@...>
>> >Sent: Nov 4, 2009 2:35 PM
>> >To: The Rhodes 22 Email List <rhodes22-list@...>
>> >Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] advice needed from litigious Rhodies
>> >
>> >Stan,
>> >
>> >Doesn't sound any different than companies that supe up sports cars.

How
>> >much for the suped up Catalina?
>> >
>> >Rick
>> >
>> >On Wed, Nov 4, 2009 at 1:16 PM, stan <stan@...> wrote:
>> >
>> >> last time things got bad, to broaden our price marking base  we
went
>> into
>> >> recycling Rhodes
>> >>
>> >> this time, to broaden our base and not keep losing those prospects
who
>> want
>> >> a little bit bigger boat (since no Rhodes took us up on the Rhodes
27
>> >> projected) we bought a Catalina 25 and have torn it apart.   we
are
>> going to
>> >> try and make it into a Catalina-Rhodes hybrid:   IMF, combo
keel/cb,

>> >> electric tilting motor lift, etc.
>> >>
>> >> it is being sold as a used Catalina 25 that we have recycled and
>> upgraded.
>> >>    Can Frank butler (he owns Catalina) legally complain?
>> >>
>> >> ss
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> __________________________________________________
>> >> To subscribe/unsubscribe go to
>> >> http://www.rhodes22.org/mailman/listinfo/rhodes22-list
>> >>
>> >> For the list Charter and help with using the mailing list and

archives
>> go
>> >> to http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>> >> __________________________________________________
>> >>
>> >__________________________________________________
>> >To subscribe/unsubscribe go to
>> http://www.rhodes22.org/mailman/listinfo/rhodes22-list
>> >
>> >For the list Charter and help with using the mailing list and
archives go
>> to http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>> >__________________________________________________
>>
>> __________________________________________________
>> To subscribe/unsubscribe go to
>> http://www.rhodes22.org/mailman/listinfo/rhodes22-list
>>
>> For the list Charter and help with using the mailing list and
archives go
>> to http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>> __________________________________________________
>>
>__________________________________________________
>To subscribe/unsubscribe go to
http://www.rhodes22.org/mailman/listinfo/rhodes22-list
>
>For the list Charter and help with using the mailing list and archives
go to http://www.rhodes22.org/list
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[cowie]

Stan
I would be concerned about Catalina offering the Rhodes options as  
standard after they buy back one if their boats and see what you did  
to it.  Maybe there is a partnership aproach?

Chris Cowie
Cowie Associates PC


On Nov 4, 2009, at 1:25 PM, "stan" <stan@...> wrote:

> last time things got bad, to broaden our price marking base  we went  
> into recycling Rhodes
>
> this time, to broaden our base and not keep losing those prospects  
> who want a little bit bigger boat (since no Rhodes took us up on the  
> Rhodes 27 projected) we bought a Catalina 25 and have torn it  
> apart.   we are going to try and make it into a Catalina-Rhodes  
> hybrid:   IMF, combo keel/cb, electric tilting motor lift, etc.
>
> it is being sold as a used Catalina 25 that we have recycled and  
> upgraded.    Can Frank butler (he owns Catalina) legally complain?
>
> ss
>
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> To subscribe/unsubscribe go to http://www.rhodes22.org/mailman/listinfo/rhodes22-list
>
> For the list Charter and help with using the mailing list and  
> archives go to http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> __________________________________________________
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 8.5.424 / Virus Database: 270.14.39/2469 - Release Date:  
> 11/04/09 07:37:00

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[Jeff Kantor]

Carroll Shelby and AMG were both licensed modifiers who obtained corporate sales and support in exchange for incredible publicity once the products found widescale acceptance.

So, Stan... a Catalina Cobra!   Hot!     But will it still have a swell head?

Now I've got a West Wight Potter that could use a lot of re-engineering.....
 Regards,
Jeff Kantor
c. 917.825.5380
sirius1@...
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[BenCittadino]

Stan;

I'm somewhat distracted at the moment, being at the geographic center of the Yankees/Phillies World Series, but my "from the hip" opinion is that no one can reassure you about your legal position without a whole lot more information. The facts presented raise all kinds of trademark and patent issues that may or may not provide a basis for a claim by Catalina.

It's one thing for me to modify my car for my own use, and quite another to to take a GM design and re-engineer it for commercial sale. Would you be utilizing protected (patented) design features belonging to Catalina without their permission for a commercial purpose? Would you be relying upon or trading on Catalina's good-will in the market place? Could they claim you were "palming off" your product as theirs?

I like the "joint venture" idea a lot. Nothing beats getting out ahead of a potential problem by making a potential adversary your partner.

Have fun.

By the way, the s/v Susan Kay is "on the hard" as of last week, awaiting my winter cover from our own Art Czerwonky. Pictures will follow (eventually).

Go Yankees!

BenCittadino



 

Jeff Kantor wrote:

Carroll Shelby and AMG were both licensed modifiers who obtained corporate sales and support in exchange for incredible publicity once the products found widescale acceptance.

So, Stan... a Catalina Cobra!   Hot!     But will it still have a swell head?

Now I've got a West Wight Potter that could use a lot of re-engineering.....
 Regards,
Jeff Kantor
c. 917.825.5380
[e-mail]
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[R22MikeW]

Lee,

Yep, 1400 lbs of ballast is 1400 lbs of ballast except when it moves.  The
major problem with water is that it "sloshes", for lack of a better word and
lead or cement do not (at least at normal temps.)  Some of the mishaps with
cruise ships and freighters were due to movement of cargo or water ballast
as the vessel rolled (heeling in sailboats.)  If the ballast compartment is
not completely full, disaster can strike.

Mike
s/v Shanghai'd Summer ('81)
Nissequogue River, NY

From: "KUHN, LELAND" Wednesday, November 04, 2009 4:08 PM

> Rick,
>
> 1,400 pounds (or l,l50 pounds)
>
> http://www.macgregor26.com/water_ballast/water_ballast.htm
>
> is the same weight no matter if it's lead or water.  The only real
> difference is that lead takes up eleven times less space than water.
> Our Rhodes sailboats have 700 pounds of ballast.  The lower the weight
> the more the righting capability but weight is weight no matter if it's
> water or lead.  Water ballast works, it just takes up eleven times more
> space than lead.
>
> I welcome disagreement from the physicists and engineers out there.
>
> Lee
> 1986 Rhodes22  At Ease
> Kent Island, MD
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: rhodes22-list-bounces@...
> [mailto:rhodes22-list-bounces@...] On Behalf Of Arthur H.
> Czerwonky
> Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 3:28 PM
> To: The Rhodes 22 Email List
> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] advice needed from litigious Rhodies
>
> Rick,
>
> Consider that the water adds 1400# to the ballast, other stability
> questions not considered.  Validating the stability issue would be easy
> - with mast and sail and ballast in place, pull the mast toward the
> water and determine at what point the tension on the mast line zeroes
> out.  If the tension remains, the boat will have a natural positive
> righting moment.
>
> This does not allow for the dumbie who, like others before, operate the
> boat improperly or who cannot read the directions.
>
> Macgregor will sell the new spreader assembly so that the mast can have
> the stays properly aligned, GB might obtain for free as a professional
> courtesy fm MacG.
>
> Make sense?
>
> Art
>
> -----Original Message-----
>>From: Rick <sloopblueheron@...>
>>Sent: Nov 4, 2009 3:06 PM
>>To: The Rhodes 22 Email List <rhodes22-list@...>
>>Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] advice needed from litigious Rhodies
>>
>>Art,
>>
>>An IMF mast would probably cause a water ballast MacGregor to turtle.
>>
>>Please explain: "Stan no longer has new IMF capability."
>>
>>Rick
>>
>>On Wed, Nov 4, 2009 at 2:51 PM, Arthur H. Czerwonky
> <czerwonky@...
>>> wrote:
>>
>>> Rick,
>>>
>>> I wonder who could know - a typical Catalina owner will be the best
> judge.
>>>  BTW, no secret that we can be helpful in promoting this if we have
> posted
>>> pictures and info.  I have toyed seriously with putting the IMF on a
>>> MacGregor to test for stability.  Anyone who has had the thrill of
> raising a
>>> MacGregor mainsail from their awkward deck station would understand
> the
>>> value in this.  There are alot of Macgregor owners who would thirst
> at this
>>> prospect - talk about a market for the IMF.  I mention this knowing
> that
>>> Tootle certified that Stan no longer has new IMF capability.
> Hopefully this
>>> is not true.
>>>
>>> Art
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> >From: Rick <sloopblueheron@...>
>>> >Sent: Nov 4, 2009 2:35 PM
>>> >To: The Rhodes 22 Email List <rhodes22-list@...>
>>> >Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] advice needed from litigious Rhodies
>>> >
>>> >Stan,
>>> >
>>> >Doesn't sound any different than companies that supe up sports cars.
> How
>>> >much for the suped up Catalina?
>>> >
>>> >Rick
>>> >
>>> >On Wed, Nov 4, 2009 at 1:16 PM, stan <stan@...> wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> last time things got bad, to broaden our price marking base  we
> went
>>> into
>>> >> recycling Rhodes
>>> >>
>>> >> this time, to broaden our base and not keep losing those prospects
> who
>>> want
>>> >> a little bit bigger boat (since no Rhodes took us up on the Rhodes
> 27
>>> >> projected) we bought a Catalina 25 and have torn it apart.   we
> are
>>> going to
>>> >> try and make it into a Catalina-Rhodes hybrid:   IMF, combo
> keel/cb,
>>> >> electric tilting motor lift, etc.
>>> >>
>>> >> it is being sold as a used Catalina 25 that we have recycled and
>>> upgraded.
>>> >>    Can Frank butler (he owns Catalina) legally complain?
>>> >>
>>> >> ss
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> __________________________________________________
>>> >> To subscribe/unsubscribe go to
>>> >> http://www.rhodes22.org/mailman/listinfo/rhodes22-list
>>> >>
>>> >> For the list Charter and help with using the mailing list and
> archives
>>> go
>>> >> to http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>> >> __________________________________________________
>>> >>
>>> >__________________________________________________
>>> >To subscribe/unsubscribe go to
>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/mailman/listinfo/rhodes22-list
>>> >
>>> >For the list Charter and help with using the mailing list and
> archives go
>>> to http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>> >__________________________________________________
>>>
>>> __________________________________________________
>>> To subscribe/unsubscribe go to
>>> http://www.rhodes22.org/mailman/listinfo/rhodes22-list
>>>
>>> For the list Charter and help with using the mailing list and
> archives go
>>> to http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>> __________________________________________________
>>>
>>__________________________________________________
>>To subscribe/unsubscribe go to
> http://www.rhodes22.org/mailman/listinfo/rhodes22-list
>>
>>For the list Charter and help with using the mailing list and archives
> go to http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>__________________________________________________
>
> __________________________________________________
> To subscribe/unsubscribe go to
> http://www.rhodes22.org/mailman/listinfo/rhodes22-list
>
> For the list Charter and help with using the mailing list and archives
> go to http://www.rhodes22.org/list
> __________________________________________________
>
> Confidentiality Notice: This e-mail message, including any attachments, is
> for the sole use of the intended
> recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any
> unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited.
> If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply
> e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message.
>
>
> __________________________________________________
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>
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> to http://www.rhodes22.org/list
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>
>

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[R22MikeW]

Art,

Like most of your target audience, I haven't even opened the issue yet.  I
will read it tonight and get back to you.

Now, if you could only find a way to get most of your prospective clients to
LOOK at your ad you might get a few calls.  Just ask them from da list.
Maybe you should just advertise on the list!  Oh yeah, I remember ... see,
free publicity isn't so hard ...

Mike
s/v Shanghai'd Summer ('81)
Nissequogue River, NY

From: "Arthur H. Czerwonky" Wednesday, November 04, 2009 3:39 PM

> Mike,
>
> Did you see the ad?  It is a simple placement as a for-sale offer for a
> simple phone response.  It was never intended as a significant ad piece or
> promotion.  A similar approach could tested to offer a "significantly
> upgraded" Catalina or other brand.  Initially, Stan might want to delay GB
> identification with the upgraded product.
>
> I suspect such an ad would need to be repeated in a yearful of issues as a
> valid test, I agree.
>
> Out on Boca Ciege with Ron on Serenity this morning, what a sail!  I will
> need to gain weight to be more effective 'rail meat'.  Y'all come to sunny
> Florida!
>
> Art
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>>From: "Michael D. Weisner" <mweisner@...>
>>Sent: Nov 4, 2009 3:02 PM
>>To: The Rhodes 22 Email List <rhodes22-list@...>
>>Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] November Sail ad
>>
>>Art,
>>
>>One cannot evaluate an advertising campaign in days or even weeks,
>>especially for a single insertion.  These things take time and continued
>>exposure.  Now you are going to find out the true cost of a printed media
>>ad
>>campaign!
>>
>>Bonne chance,
>>
>>Mike
>>s/v Shanghai'd Summer ('81)
>>Nissequogue River, NY
>>
>>From: "Arthur H. Czerwonky"  Wednesday, November 04, 2009 2:36 PM
>>{clip}
>>> BTW, my small ad piece in November Sail has not yet produced prospects.
>>>
>>> Imagine, your suspected nemisis is cheering for your success!
>>{clip}
>>> Art
>>
>>
>>--
>>I am using the free version of SPAMfighter.
>>We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam.
>>SPAMfighter has removed 7488 of my spam emails to date.
>>Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len
>>
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>>
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>>http://www.rhodes22.org/mailman/listinfo/rhodes22-list
>>
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>>to http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>__________________________________________________
>
> __________________________________________________
> To subscribe/unsubscribe go to
> http://www.rhodes22.org/mailman/listinfo/rhodes22-list
>
> For the list Charter and help with using the mailing list and archives go
> to http://www.rhodes22.org/list
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>

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[John Shulick]

Stan,

Rather than use a current model still in production, is there a possibility of buying the molds for a hull that  is out of production and build the boat up from scratch? If you own the molds would there then be a legal issue? I've heard the O'Day 26 was a fast boat for its size and the company is no more.

John S

PS Have you resolved the problem of dies for the IMF?

stanleyl wrote:

last time things got bad, to broaden our price marking base  we went into recycling Rhodes

this time, to broaden our base and not keep losing those prospects who want a little bit bigger boat (since no Rhodes took us up on the Rhodes 27 projected) we bought a Catalina 25 and have torn it apart.   we are going to try and make it into a Catalina-Rhodes hybrid:   IMF, combo keel/cb, electric tilting motor lift, etc.

it is being sold as a used Catalina 25 that we have recycled and upgraded.    Can Frank butler (he owns Catalina) legally complain?

ss



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[Arthur H. Czerwonky]

Mike,

Maybe you don't see my purpose, which was to generate leads for GB, not anything I make.  Call it a designated offering.  Maybe the canvas would follow, maybe not, but maybe there is some inexpensive way to tickle boat orders.  Like you say, my only potential for anything I produce is custom for our skippers, and at their request.  If I were looking for random orders, the ad would be a lousy way to spend my dollars, and apparently is also a lousy way to generate R22 'suspects'.  Oh, well...


Now your turn for ideas, bub...

R,

Art

-----Original Message-----

>From: "Michael D. Weisner" <mweisner@...>
>Sent: Nov 4, 2009 6:10 PM
>To: The Rhodes 22 Email List <rhodes22-list@...>
>Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] November Sail ad
>
>Art,
>
>Like most of your target audience, I haven't even opened the issue yet.  I
>will read it tonight and get back to you.
>
>Now, if you could only find a way to get most of your prospective clients to
>LOOK at your ad you might get a few calls.  Just ask them from da list.
>Maybe you should just advertise on the list!  Oh yeah, I remember ... see,
>free publicity isn't so hard ...
>
>Mike
>s/v Shanghai'd Summer ('81)
>Nissequogue River, NY
>
>From: "Arthur H. Czerwonky" Wednesday, November 04, 2009 3:39 PM
>> Mike,
>>
>> Did you see the ad?  It is a simple placement as a for-sale offer for a
>> simple phone response.  It was never intended as a significant ad piece or
>> promotion.  A similar approach could tested to offer a "significantly
>> upgraded" Catalina or other brand.  Initially, Stan might want to delay GB
>> identification with the upgraded product.
>>
>> I suspect such an ad would need to be repeated in a yearful of issues as a
>> valid test, I agree.
>>
>> Out on Boca Ciege with Ron on Serenity this morning, what a sail!  I will
>> need to gain weight to be more effective 'rail meat'.  Y'all come to sunny
>> Florida!
>>
>> Art
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>>>From: "Michael D. Weisner" <mweisner@...>
>>>Sent: Nov 4, 2009 3:02 PM
>>>To: The Rhodes 22 Email List <rhodes22-list@...>
>>>Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] November Sail ad
>>>
>>>Art,
>>>
>>>One cannot evaluate an advertising campaign in days or even weeks,
>>>especially for a single insertion.  These things take time and continued
>>>exposure.  Now you are going to find out the true cost of a printed media
>>>ad
>>>campaign!
>>>
>>>Bonne chance,
>>>
>>>Mike
>>>s/v Shanghai'd Summer ('81)
>>>Nissequogue River, NY
>>>
>>>From: "Arthur H. Czerwonky"  Wednesday, November 04, 2009 2:36 PM
>>>{clip}
>>>> BTW, my small ad piece in November Sail has not yet produced prospects.
>>>>
>>>> Imagine, your suspected nemisis is cheering for your success!
>>>{clip}
>>>> Art
>>>
>>>
>>>--
>>>I am using the free version of SPAMfighter.
>>>We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam.
>>>SPAMfighter has removed 7488 of my spam emails to date.
>>>Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len
>>>
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>>>
>>>
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>>>
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>>>to http://www.rhodes22.org/list
>>>__________________________________________________
>>
>> __________________________________________________
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>> to http://www.rhodes22.org/list
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>>
>
>
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