album audio volume problem

[w6go]

I am ripping CDs into flac files using EAC for access by my Denon home theater receiver.

I note a large variation in audio level between albums when copied into flac files that seem audibly at the same level when played on the same CD player.

Is there a way to adjust the recordings so that all albums come out at about the same volume level?

Thanks,

Jay O'Brien
Folsom, California, USA

[Jeff-7]

On Fri, May 29, 2009 22:48, Jay O'Brien wrote:

> I am ripping CDs into flac files using EAC for access by my Denon home
> theater receiver.
>
> I note a large variation in audio level between albums when copied into
> flac files that seem audibly at the same level when played on the same CD
> player.
>
> Is there a way to adjust the recordings so that all albums come out at
> about the same volume level?

It's a long shot, but does your Denon receiver support ReplayGain?

[w6go]

--- In eac@..., "Jeff" <atrocity@...> wrote:

>
> On Fri, May 29, 2009 22:48, Jay O'Brien wrote:
>
> > I am ripping CDs into flac files using EAC for access by my Denon home
> > theater receiver.
> >
> > I note a large variation in audio level between albums when copied into
> > flac files that seem audibly at the same level when played on the same CD
> > player.
> >
> > Is there a way to adjust the recordings so that all albums come out at
> > about the same volume level?
>
> It's a long shot, but does your Denon receiver support ReplayGain?
>

I don't believe so, I've not heard that term and I'm reasonably familiar with the receiver; it is a 3808ci that is nearly 2 years old.

I don't object to ripping the CDs again, but I want the flac files to be such that the selections don't require volume changes when playing them. There's got to be a way to adjust the volume level on an album basis, if not for each track.

[Lin Sprague-2]

On 31 May 2009 at 17:36, w6go wrote:

> I don't object to ripping the CDs again, but I want the flac files to be
> such that the selections don't require volume changes when playing them.
> There's got to be a way to adjust the volume level on an album basis, if
> not for each track.

There is: it's the "Normalize" setting in EAC Options. However, if
you're going to be altering the amplitude of the your ripped tracks,
you're disregarding the main strength of EAC, which is its ability to
make Exact Audio Copies of your CDs.

Keep in mind that the perceived volume of the music doesn't only have
to do with the waveform's amplitude. For example, if the music is very
upper-midrange-heavy (like if it was recorded from a TV speaker), it
might sound louder than full-frequency music that's actually the same
volume. Also, normalization of a whole album of tracks bases its volume
change on the music's peaks - so if the music has a very wide dynamic
range and there are only a few very loud peaks, much of the music will
still sound quiet.

In other words, letting a machine make the decision is kind of a
crapshoot and you might not get the results you expect.

[w6go]

--- In eac@..., "Lin Sprague" <rednoise@...> wrote:

>
> On 31 May 2009 at 17:36, w6go wrote:
>
> > I don't object to ripping the CDs again, but I want the flac files to be
> > such that the selections don't require volume changes when playing them.
> > There's got to be a way to adjust the volume level on an album basis, if
> > not for each track.
>
> There is: it's the "Normalize" setting in EAC Options. However, if
> you're going to be altering the amplitude of the your ripped tracks,
> you're disregarding the main strength of EAC, which is its ability to
> make Exact Audio Copies of your CDs.
>
> Keep in mind that the perceived volume of the music doesn't only have
> to do with the waveform's amplitude. For example, if the music is very
> upper-midrange-heavy (like if it was recorded from a TV speaker), it
> might sound louder than full-frequency music that's actually the same
> volume. Also, normalization of a whole album of tracks bases its volume
> change on the music's peaks - so if the music has a very wide dynamic
> range and there are only a few very loud peaks, much of the music will
> still sound quiet.
>
> In other words, letting a machine make the decision is kind of a
> crapshoot and you might not get the results you expect.
>

Wow! That's exactly what I was looking for.  Is that documented anywhere? I will re-rip the two albums that are the loudest and softest, using normalize. Yes, I understand that I'm bypassing part of what eac does. However, I want the music copied accurately, but adjusted in audio level so that I am not obliged to ride the playback volume.

[Jeff-7]

On Sun, May 31, 2009 14:47, w6go wrote:

> Wow! That's exactly what I was looking for.  Is that documented anywhere?
> I will re-rip the two albums that are the loudest and softest, using
> normalize. Yes, I understand that I'm bypassing part of what eac does.
> However, I want the music copied accurately, but adjusted in audio level
> so that I am not obliged to ride the playback volume.

If--and this is a big and non-free if--you're a gadget freak and not
averse to buying another component, I'd suggest looking into a Logitech
Squeezebox.  I only mention it here because it handles ReplayGain, which
would allow you to simply have Foobar2000 (or whatever) calculate the
values and write the tags...the audio portion of your files wouldn't be
altered, the FLAC tags would just contain volume-leveling instructions.

I admit that you're asking how to fix a squeaky floorboard and I'm
suggesting you buy a new house. :)

[w6go]

--- In eac@..., "Jeff" <atrocity@...> wrote:

>
> On Sun, May 31, 2009 14:47, w6go wrote:
>
> > Wow! That's exactly what I was looking for.  Is that documented anywhere?
> > I will re-rip the two albums that are the loudest and softest, using
> > normalize. Yes, I understand that I'm bypassing part of what eac does.
> > However, I want the music copied accurately, but adjusted in audio level
> > so that I am not obliged to ride the playback volume.
>
> If--and this is a big and non-free if--you're a gadget freak and not
> averse to buying another component, I'd suggest looking into a Logitech
> Squeezebox.  I only mention it here because it handles ReplayGain, which
> would allow you to simply have Foobar2000 (or whatever) calculate the
> values and write the tags...the audio portion of your files wouldn't be
> altered, the FLAC tags would just contain volume-leveling instructions.
>
> I admit that you're asking how to fix a squeaky floorboard and I'm
> suggesting you buy a new house. :)
>

Jeff,
Thanks for the suggestion. That won't apply here, as at this time I'm only playing the flac files on my Denon.

What is funny, tho, is that our new Squeezebox Boom came last week. It is intended as a clock radio to listen to a local station we get very poorly over the air but fine on the internet. Perhaps in the future it will also play from our music files, but if I use normalize in eac, then ReplayGain shouldn't be necessary.

Now to find out if normalize works for me...

[w6go]

> --- In eac@..., "Lin Sprague" <rednoise@> wrote:
> >
> > There is: it's the "Normalize" setting in EAC Options. However, if
> > you're going to be altering the amplitude of the your ripped tracks,
> > you're disregarding the main strength of EAC, which is its ability to
> > make Exact Audio Copies of your CDs.
> >
> > Keep in mind that the perceived volume of the music doesn't only have
> > to do with the waveform's amplitude. For example, if the music is very
> > upper-midrange-heavy (like if it was recorded from a TV speaker), it
> > might sound louder than full-frequency music that's actually the same
> > volume. Also, normalization of a whole album of tracks bases its volume
> > change on the music's peaks - so if the music has a very wide dynamic
> > range and there are only a few very loud peaks, much of the music will
> > still sound quiet.
> >
> > In other words, letting a machine make the decision is kind of a
> > crapshoot and you might not get the results you expect.
> >
>
> Wow! That's exactly what I was looking for.  Is that documented anywhere? I will re-rip the two albums that are the loudest and softest, using normalize. Yes, I understand that I'm bypassing part of what eac does. However, I want the music copied accurately, but adjusted in audio level so that I am not obliged to ride the playback volume.
>

Followup: I turned normalize on, it didn't bring the low volume selections up. I changed the Normalize if peak level is smaller than 85% to 98%, normalizing to 98%, it still made no difference.

There's got to be a better way to "normalize" the audio levels between selections from different albums!  Or, maybe "normalize" isn't working? Help, please?

Jay O'Brien
Folsom, CA, USA

[Jeff-7]

On Tue, June 2, 2009 18:02, w6go wrote:

> Followup: I turned normalize on, it didn't bring the low volume
> selections up. I changed the Normalize if peak level is smaller than
> 85% to 98%, normalizing to 98%, it still made no difference.

Have you done a binary compare of the files or opened them in a WAV editor
to be positive there's no actual difference?  Given how much of this stuff
is perceptual, it's probably a good idea to be sure about that end of it.

Another idea, since you indicated you have a Logitech Boom:  Create an
unaltered FLAC of a track, a normalized-by-EAC FLAC of the same track and
a FLAC with ReplayGain tags (easily created in Foobar2000).  Turn on
ReplayGain in SqueezeCenter and play the three tracks consecutively on
your Boom to check for audible differences.  That would rule out the Denon
as the culprit (though I can't imagine what it would be doing to cause you
grief).

Something else to think about: If you normalize track-by-track and then
decide to play back an entire album, you might wind up with annoying
volume fluctations throughout the album.  It would be more work to
normalize the entire disc and then chop it up into tracks, but it would
probably be more pleasant to listen to.

But this is where ReplayGain wins again...you can have separate track and
album values and use one or the other depending on which is proper in
context.

[Jeff-7]

On Wed, June 3, 2009 10:34, Jeff wrote:

> Have you done a binary compare of the files or opened them in a WAV
> editor to be positive there's no actual difference?  Given how much
> of this stuff is perceptual, it's probably a good idea to be sure
> about that end of it.

Another thought: Have you tried having EAC do the normalization when
extracting to vanilla WAV *and* when also converting to FLAC?  I've never
tried it either way, but maybe it only works for one or the other...

[Michael Russell-4]

On Wed, 03 Jun 2009 01:02:37 -0000, "w6go" <jayobrien@...> wrote:

>Followup: I turned normalize on, it didn't bring the low volume selections up. I changed the Normalize if peak level is smaller than 85% to 98%, normalizing to 98%, it still made no difference.
>
>There's got to be a better way to "normalize" the audio levels between selections from different albums!  Or, maybe "normalize" isn't working? Help, please?

The simple normalize built into EAC is not going to get you what you
want. Your going to need other software in order accomplish any truly
effective leveling.

I would make some suggestions if you'd like but I don't know how much
effort your willing to put into the process.

--
Michael J. Russell
mrussell57@...

[w6go]

--- In eac@..., Michael Russell <mrussell57@...> wrote:

>
> On Wed, 03 Jun 2009 01:02:37 -0000, "w6go" <jayobrien@...> wrote:
>
> >Followup: I turned normalize on, it didn't bring the low volume selections up. I changed the Normalize if peak level is smaller than 85% to 98%, normalizing to 98%, it still made no difference.
> >
> >There's got to be a better way to "normalize" the audio levels between selections from different albums!  Or, maybe "normalize" isn't working? Help, please?
>
> The simple normalize built into EAC is not going to get you what you
> want. Your going to need other software in order accomplish any truly
> effective leveling.
>
> I would make some suggestions if you'd like but I don't know how much
> effort your willing to put into the process.
>
> --
> Michael J. Russell
> mrussell57@...
>

Please do make the suggestions. I have just been referred to "WaveGain" which I understand can change the audio level of a wav file. If that works, then I will need to determine how to take a wav file and convert it to flac. Perhaps EAC can help?  I am open to all suggestions and as there really are few tracks I wish to change in level, it won't be that big of a problem.

Thanks!
Jay O'Brien

[w6go]

--- In eac@..., "Jeff" <atrocity@...> wrote:

>
> On Wed, June 3, 2009 10:34, Jeff wrote:
>
> > Have you done a binary compare of the files or opened them in a WAV
> > editor to be positive there's no actual difference?  Given how much
> > of this stuff is perceptual, it's probably a good idea to be sure
> > about that end of it.
>
> Another thought: Have you tried having EAC do the normalization when
> extracting to vanilla WAV *and* when also converting to FLAC?  I've never
> tried it either way, but maybe it only works for one or the other...
>

I've only tried it when EAC is making flac files. You make an interesting point, however, thank you!

[Michael Russell-4]

On Thu, 04 Jun 2009 00:52:00 -0000, "w6go" <jayobrien@...> wrote:

>--- In eac@..., Michael Russell <mrussell57@...> wrote:

>> I would make some suggestions if you'd like but I don't know how much
>> effort your willing to put into the process.
>>

>
>Please do make the suggestions. I have just been referred to "WaveGain" which I understand can change the audio level of a wav file. If that works, then I will need to determine how to take a wav file and convert it to flac. Perhaps EAC can help?  I am open to all suggestions and as there really are few tracks I wish to change in level, it won't be that big of a problem.

If you want to do it for free there's foobar 2000. Once configured it'll
should do the conversion from your existing FLAC files, provide you have
them in some sort of reasonable file structure.

A reasonably priced commercial program that would work would be
dBpoweramp. Its advantage would be a more straight forward interface.

The key in both cases is the use of ReplayGain during conversion.

--
Michael J. Russell
mrussell57@...

[Marcus Kwok-2]

On Wed, Jun 03, 2009 at 01:02:37AM -0000, w6go wrote:
> > --- In eac@..., "Lin Sprague" <rednoise@> wrote:
> > >         Also, normalization of a whole album of tracks bases its volume
> > > change on the music's peaks - so if the music has a very wide dynamic
> > > range and there are only a few very loud peaks, much of the music will
> > > still sound quiet.
> >
> Followup: I turned normalize on, it didn't bring the low volume
> selections up. I changed the Normalize if peak level is smaller than
> 85% to 98%, normalizing to 98%, it still made no difference.

As noted above, perhaps the waveform is overall quiet but has a few
peaks.  A single sample that is significantly higher than the rest will
prevent normalization from making any significant difference.

--
Marcus Kwok

[Jeff-7]

On 3 Jun 2009 at 20:36, Michael Russell wrote:

> The key in both cases is the use of ReplayGain during conversion.

I think ReplayGain is usually just a tag+value pair that needs to be honored by the playback
software/hardware.  The OP is asking to modify the actual audio data in the WAV/FLAC.

[Michael Russell-4]

On Thu, 04 Jun 2009 07:26:19 -0700, "Jeff" <atrocity@...> wrote:

>On 3 Jun 2009 at 20:36, Michael Russell wrote:
>
>> The key in both cases is the use of ReplayGain during conversion.
>
>I think ReplayGain is usually just a tag+value pair that needs to be honored by the playback
>software/hardware.  The OP is asking to modify the actual audio data in the WAV/FLAC.

You can have foobar or dBpoweramp apply ReplayGain to a file among other
processes during a conversion even if your going from FLAC to FLAC.

--
Michael J. Russell
mrussell57@...

[Martin Acuff]

--- In eac@..., Jay O'Brien <jayobrien@...> wrote:
 
> I note a large variation in audio level between albums when copied into flac files that seem audibly at the same level when played on the same CD player.
>
> Is there a way to adjust the recordings so that all albums come out at about the same volume level?

Hi,  I'm new to the group.  I work in the audio processing biz so I can at least explain what's going on.  

The volume differences between discs results from different mastering techniques: current mastering trends heavily compress the audio such that it sounds louder during playback.

Earlier disc mastering preserved more of the dynamic range of the recording; these recordings don't sound as loud as the hyper-compressed discs popular today.

As previously noted in this thread, normalization acts upon the highest peak level of the track.  Normalization adjusts a fixed gain for the whole track such that the peak levels of various tracks "line up" to a preferred level.

Problem is: peak levels aren't the same as perceived loudness.  Loudness perception is roughly the RMS power level of audio.  Some audio tracks can have high peak content, while having low subjective loudness, while other tracks can have the same peak level and much higher loudness.  This is called "peak-to-average ratio".

What you need is a thing that processes the audio to produce consistent subjective levels given inconsistent source material.

Radio and TV stations employ audio processing for these very reasons, though most listeners/viewers are unaware of the processing.

There are software audio processors available to do what you want, some achieve the goal better than others.

The products that my company makes are all hardware, DSP audio processing solutions.  The only product that MIGHT be appropriate is a PCI card audio processor and sound card.  This card processes audio in real-time, so a 5:00 minute track takes 5:00 minutes to process.

Details about this card are here:
<http://www.orban.com/products/streaming/optimod-pc1101/>

Regards,

   -- Marty

[Mike Walsh-2]

i hate to correct your first post, but i see problems with what you are saying vis a vis the question.

in the question, he wants to know why his FLAC version of CDs have varying loudness when the same CDs themselves don't seem to.

what you said doesn't explain that phenomenon and frankly i question whether or not his assessment is accurate.

having said that, the best way to get a consistent volume among your FLACs or mp3s or whatever, is to apply RG tags (Replay Gain) to the files id3 tag, and use them on playback, (like winamp can when enabled)

i apply both track and album tags with winamp.

-mdw

ps.  RG tags make NO CHANGES WHATSOEVER to the actual audio data, they are 100% safe to use.





--- In eac@..., "mwacuff" <mwacuff_1999@...> wrote:

>
> --- In eac@..., Jay O'Brien <jayobrien@> wrote:
>  
> > I note a large variation in audio level between albums when copied into flac files that seem audibly at the same level when played on the same CD player.
> >
> > Is there a way to adjust the recordings so that all albums come out at about the same volume level?
>
> Hi,  I'm new to the group.  I work in the audio processing biz so I can at least explain what's going on.  
>
> The volume differences between discs results from different mastering techniques: current mastering trends heavily compress the audio such that it sounds louder during playback.
>
> Earlier disc mastering preserved more of the dynamic range of the recording; these recordings don't sound as loud as the hyper-compressed discs popular today.
>
> As previously noted in this thread, normalization acts upon the highest peak level of the track.  Normalization adjusts a fixed gain for the whole track such that the peak levels of various tracks "line up" to a preferred level.
>
> Problem is: peak levels aren't the same as perceived loudness.  Loudness perception is roughly the RMS power level of audio.  Some audio tracks can have high peak content, while having low subjective loudness, while other tracks can have the same peak level and much higher loudness.  This is called "peak-to-average ratio".
>
> What you need is a thing that processes the audio to produce consistent subjective levels given inconsistent source material.
>
> Radio and TV stations employ audio processing for these very reasons, though most listeners/viewers are unaware of the processing.
>
> There are software audio processors available to do what you want, some achieve the goal better than others.
>
> The products that my company makes are all hardware, DSP audio processing solutions.  The only product that MIGHT be appropriate is a PCI card audio processor and sound card.  This card processes audio in real-time, so a 5:00 minute track takes 5:00 minutes to process.
>
> Details about this card are here:
> <http://www.orban.com/products/streaming/optimod-pc1101/>
>
> Regards,
>
>    -- Marty
>

[Martin Acuff]

Oh! I missed the FLAC part entirely... 

I was remarking about the relative loudness differences of commercially-mastered CDs.

...sorry about the off-track nature of the post. 

    -- Marty

--- On Thu, 8/27/09, mr1sinatra <MrSinatra@...> wrote:

From: mr1sinatra <MrSinatra@...>
Subject: [eac] Re: album audio volume problem
To: eac@...
Date: Thursday, August 27, 2009, 6:38 PM






 




   
                  i hate to correct your first post, but i see problems with what you are saying vis a vis the question.



in the question, he wants to know why his FLAC version of CDs have varying loudness when the same CDs themselves don't seem to.



what you said doesn't explain that phenomenon and frankly i question whether or not his assessment is accurate.



having said that, the best way to get a consistent volume among your FLACs or mp3s or whatever, is to apply RG tags (Replay Gain) to the files id3 tag, and use them on playback, (like winamp can when enabled)



i apply both track and album tags with winamp.



-mdw



ps.  RG tags make NO CHANGES WHATSOEVER to the actual audio data, they are 100% safe to use.



--- In eac@yahoogroups. com, "mwacuff" <mwacuff_1999@ ...> wrote:

>

> --- In eac@yahoogroups. com, Jay O'Brien <jayobrien@> wrote:

>  

> > I note a large variation in audio level between albums when copied into flac files that seem audibly at the same level when played on the same CD player.

> >

> > Is there a way to adjust the recordings so that all albums come out at about the same volume level?

>

> Hi,  I'm new to the group.  I work in the audio processing biz so I can at least explain what's going on.  

>

> The volume differences between discs results from different mastering techniques: current mastering trends heavily compress the audio such that it sounds louder during playback.

>

> Earlier disc mastering preserved more of the dynamic range of the recording; these recordings don't sound as loud as the hyper-compressed discs popular today.

>

> As previously noted in this thread, normalization acts upon the highest peak level of the track.  Normalization adjusts a fixed gain for the whole track such that the peak levels of various tracks "line up" to a preferred level.

>

> Problem is: peak levels aren't the same as perceived loudness.  Loudness perception is roughly the RMS power level of audio.  Some audio tracks can have high peak content, while having low subjective loudness, while other tracks can have the same peak level and much higher loudness.  This is called "peak-to-average ratio".

>

> What you need is a thing that processes the audio to produce consistent subjective levels given inconsistent source material.

>

> Radio and TV stations employ audio processing for these very reasons, though most listeners/viewers are unaware of the processing.

>

> There are software audio processors available to do what you want, some achieve the goal better than others.

>

> The products that my company makes are all hardware, DSP audio processing solutions.  The only product that MIGHT be appropriate is a PCI card audio processor and sound card.  This card processes audio in real-time, so a 5:00 minute track takes 5:00 minutes to process.

>

> Details about this card are here:

> <http://www.orban. com/products/ streaming/ optimod-pc1101/>

>

> Regards,

>

>    -- Marty

>




 

     

   
   
       
         
       
       








       


       
       


     

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