anyone looked at Chameleon closely?

[Jeremy Visser]

One other thought. WordPress's security team are doing a wonderful
job, but this Flip mob probably will be taking their time in patching
Chameleon with the patches for WordPress, so WP will probably remain
more secure?

Does anyone reckon it's ok with the GPL to purchase a copy of
Chameleon and apply some changes to the WordPress core? I mean, like
Matt going and shipping some Chameleon code with WP2.1 or something?

--
Jeremy Visser
Email: jeremy.visser@...
Website: http://jeremy.serveblog.net/
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[Mark Jaquith]

On Jun 6, 2006, at 7:41 PM, Jeremy Visser wrote:

> Does anyone reckon it's ok with the GPL to purchase a copy of
> Chameleon and apply some changes to the WordPress core? I mean, like
> Matt going and shipping some Chameleon code with WP2.1 or something?

That would certainly be okay.  GPL is viral, so their WP-modification  
is GPL licensed, which means that just as they are licensed to take  
our modifications and apply them to their code, we can take their  
modifications and apply them to our code.  That is, assuming we can  
get out hands on the code.  As was said earlier in the thread, we  
don't have a right to the source code unless we buy the product (and,  
of course, PHP is only source code, so once you buy it, you have the  
source code.)  You could also try and convince one of their customers  
to give you the code, but you probably won't have much luck with  
that.  Contact them and ask about pricing.  If it is reasonably  
affordable, a few people could chip in and snag a copy for comparison  
purposes.  I'd keep your WP involvement a secret, though.  They'll  
probably balk if they know what you're about to do (not that I blame  
them, it'd hurt their bottom line).

--
Mark Jaquith
http://txfx.net/


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[Ryan Scheuermann]

Assuming, of course, they aren't reading this right now.  :-)

----
Concept 64, Inc. | Phone: [phone] | Web: www.concept64.com



Mark Jaquith wrote:

> On Jun 6, 2006, at 7:41 PM, Jeremy Visser wrote:
>
>> Does anyone reckon it's ok with the GPL to purchase a copy of
>> Chameleon and apply some changes to the WordPress core? I mean, like
>> Matt going and shipping some Chameleon code with WP2.1 or something?
>
> That would certainly be okay.  GPL is viral, so their WP-modification
> is GPL licensed, which means that just as they are licensed to take
> our modifications and apply them to their code, we can take their
> modifications and apply them to our code.  That is, assuming we can
> get out hands on the code.  As was said earlier in the thread, we
> don't have a right to the source code unless we buy the product (and,
> of course, PHP is only source code, so once you buy it, you have the
> source code.)  You could also try and convince one of their customers
> to give you the code, but you probably won't have much luck with
> that.  Contact them and ask about pricing.  If it is reasonably
> affordable, a few people could chip in and snag a copy for comparison
> purposes.  I'd keep your WP involvement a secret, though.  They'll
> probably balk if they know what you're about to do (not that I blame
> them, it'd hurt their bottom line).
>
> --
> Mark Jaquith
> http://txfx.net/
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> wp-hackers mailing list
> wp-hackers@...
> http://lists.automattic.com/mailman/listinfo/wp-hackers
>
>
>

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[Angsuman Chakraborty]

>  Okay. NOW, is the plugin GPL?

WordPress Plugins are not covered under GPL, if they do not explicitly decide to cover it under GPL (or variants).

There was some discussion on this thread:
http://blog.taragana.com/index.php/archive/a-gpl-license-question/
I have tried to collate all the information here.

Best,
Angsuman

-----Original Message-----
From: wp-hackers-bounces@...
[mailto:wp-hackers-bounces@...]On Behalf Of David Chait
Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2006 2:35 AM
To: wp-hackers@...
Subject: Re: [wp-hackers] anyone looked at Chameleon closely?
Importance: Low


What'll really cook your noodle is when you imagine a plugin that calls some
third piece of code.  The plugin obviously knows WP enough to call
'add_action/add_filter' (note that another system could use those same
function names, and same mechanisms, so that isn't necessarily WP-unique!),
and has to know how to call into the 'third piece of code' (call is 'alien
code').  But the alien code knows nothing of WP, nor the plugin.  Okay.
NOW, is the plugin GPL?  The alien code is non-GPL, so the plugin can't
possible 'pass on' GPL-ness to it by virtue of 'knowledge'.

Fun.  And gee, most of my plugins are structured just like the above
example... ;)

----- Original Message -----
From: "Aaron Brazell" <emmensetech@...>
To: <wp-hackers@...>
Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2006 4:38 PM
Subject: Re: [wp-hackers] anyone looked at Chameleon closely?


| On 6/6/06, Brian Layman <Brian@...> wrote:
| >
| > How it is distributed, does not really matter.
| > Assuming Matt's team of lawyers don't disagree. ;)  That section means
| > that
| > unless the plug-ins contain code originally contained in WordPress, they
| > don't have to be GPL.
| >
| > IMHO, licensing is up to the individual plug-in author UNLESS the
plug-in
| > includes a WP unit.  If  the plug-in pulls in ANY WP code, /then/ it in
| > part
| > contains a GPL licensed product and therefore must be GPL'd.
| >
|
| I wonder if the WordPress API functions and add_filter()s and such would
| code originally contained in WordPress?
| _______________________________________________
| wp-hackers mailing list
| wp-hackers@...
| http://lists.automattic.com/mailman/listinfo/wp-hackers
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[Ryan Boren]

Angsuman Chakraborty wrote:
>>  Okay. NOW, is the plugin GPL?
>
> WordPress Plugins are not covered under GPL, if they do not explicitly decide to cover it under GPL (or variants).
>
> There was some discussion on this thread:
> http://blog.taragana.com/index.php/archive/a-gpl-license-question/
> I have tried to collate all the information here.

Many would argue that plugins are a derived work of WP and must use a
GPL compatible license since we don't have an API exception spelled out.
  Note that Creative Commons licenses are not GPL compatible and not
usually recommended for source code licensing. There are many opinions
on the matter though.  The safest thing is to GPL your plugins since WP
itself is GPLed. This also gives you the best feel good karma since you
are extending something on the same terms that it was given to you.  I
personally don't bother with plugins that aren't GPL and won't integrate
any of their code into WP so as to avoid license taint.  I don't get all
hot and bothered about the licensing though. I'll leave that to others.
  GPL compatibility of plugins/modules is always a great topic for
heating up mailing lists.  :-)

Ryan
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[David Chait]

Again, my original "NOW, is the plugin GPL?" question still stands, with "I
don't know, but the 'alien code' certainly doesn't have to be"  as a decent
response. And because of that, there's an immediate 'loophole'. ;)

Oh, and I'd be happy to GPL license stuff if you wanted to add it to the
core.  Just drop me a line! :) :)  Otherwise, I'm happy with my 'free for
non-commercial use, commercial contact me, but in any case I own the source'
licensing...  ;)  Well, and my last few plugins were originally intended to
be simple one-shot works made GPL or PD...

I certainly have no problem with my Karma.  Over two and a half year, I've
'given back' more than I can count between my plugins, my free setup/config
help, and my support-forums cruising.

Of course, if people clicked on my donate button(s) with any frequency, and
wrote that they'd like to see stuff GPLed, I'd consider GPLing. ;) ;)

-d

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Boren" <ryan@...>
To: <wp-hackers@...>
Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2006 11:19 PM
Subject: Re: [wp-hackers] anyone looked at Chameleon closely?


| Angsuman Chakraborty wrote:
| >>  Okay. NOW, is the plugin GPL?
| >
| > WordPress Plugins are not covered under GPL, if they do not explicitly
decide to cover it under GPL (or variants).
| >
| > There was some discussion on this thread:
| > http://blog.taragana.com/index.php/archive/a-gpl-license-question/
| > I have tried to collate all the information here.
|
| Many would argue that plugins are a derived work of WP and must use a
| GPL compatible license since we don't have an API exception spelled out.
|  Note that Creative Commons licenses are not GPL compatible and not
| usually recommended for source code licensing. There are many opinions
| on the matter though.  The safest thing is to GPL your plugins since WP
| itself is GPLed. This also gives you the best feel good karma since you
| are extending something on the same terms that it was given to you.  I
| personally don't bother with plugins that aren't GPL and won't integrate
| any of their code into WP so as to avoid license taint.  I don't get all
| hot and bothered about the licensing though. I'll leave that to others.
|  GPL compatibility of plugins/modules is always a great topic for
| heating up mailing lists.  :-)
|
| Ryan

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[Angsuman Chakraborty]

GPL covers the code and derivative works. The definition of derivative works (check copyright law) doesn't include plugins.

Angsuman
DIsclaimer: IANAL
Simple Thoughts <http://blog.taragana.com/>   Hot Computer Jobs



-----Original Message-----
From: wp-hackers-bounces@...
[mailto:wp-hackers-bounces@...]On Behalf Of Aaron
Brazell
Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2006 1:55 AM
To: wp-hackers@...
Subject: Re: [wp-hackers] anyone looked at Chameleon closely?
Importance: Low


On 6/6/06, Trevor Turk <trevorturk@...> wrote:
>
> Good point. I'm pretty sure that Plugins come with licenses and copyrights
> of their own - which almost certainly require attribution.
>

Hmm. Not so sure. Sec 2(b) suggests that plugins too, if distributed as part
of the product, would be under GPL:

b) You must cause any work that you distribute or publish, that in
    whole or in part contains or is derived from the Program or any
    part thereof, to be licensed as a whole at no charge to all third
    parties under the terms of this License.
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[Computer Guru]

I doubt it will be affordable, look at their customers, those are some of
the biggest profit makers in the Middle East.
However, the GPL licensce makes it clear that if you write to them and ask
them for the source they must make it available at no cost (they can go as
far as to print it and send it to you and charge you for the cost of
materials.. but that's extreme).

Computer Guru
NeoSmart Technologies
http://neosmart.net/blog/

-----Original Message-----
From: wp-hackers-bounces@...
[mailto:wp-hackers-bounces@...] On Behalf Of Mark Jaquith
Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2006 3:04 AM
To: wp-hackers@...
Subject: Re: [wp-hackers] anyone looked at Chameleon closely?

On Jun 6, 2006, at 7:41 PM, Jeremy Visser wrote:

> Does anyone reckon it's ok with the GPL to purchase a copy of
> Chameleon and apply some changes to the WordPress core? I mean, like
> Matt going and shipping some Chameleon code with WP2.1 or something?

That would certainly be okay.  GPL is viral, so their WP-modification is GPL
licensed, which means that just as they are licensed to take our
modifications and apply them to their code, we can take their modifications
and apply them to our code.  That is, assuming we can get out hands on the
code.  As was said earlier in the thread, we don't have a right to the
source code unless we buy the product (and, of course, PHP is only source
code, so once you buy it, you have the source code.)  You could also try and
convince one of their customers to give you the code, but you probably won't
have much luck with that.  Contact them and ask about pricing.  If it is
reasonably affordable, a few people could chip in and snag a copy for
comparison purposes.  I'd keep your WP involvement a secret, though.
They'll probably balk if they know what you're about to do (not that I blame
them, it'd hurt their bottom line).

--
Mark Jaquith
http://txfx.net/


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[Mark Jaquith]

On Jun 7, 2006, at 6:52 AM, Computer Guru wrote:

> However, the GPL licensce makes it clear that if you write to them  
> and ask
> them for the source they must make it available at no cost (they  
> can go as
> far as to print it and send it to you and charge you for the cost of
> materials.. but that's extreme).

No it doesn't.  That was covered earlier in this thread.  See here  
for an unambiguous answer, right from the source:

http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl- 
faq.html#DoesTheGPLRequireAvailabilityToPublic

Since this is PHP we're talking about... all code is source code.  
Thus, anyone who buys their product gets the source code.  That  
person can do whatever he likes with it, but neither Flip Media nor  
their customers are required to give the source code to anyone.  The  
GPL only states that they *may* distribute it, or modified versions.

--
Mark Jaquith
http://txfx.net/


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[Aaron Brazell-2]

[snip]

By the way, the software is selling for 25000 AED or approx 6800 USD.
Pricey.

--
Aaron Brazell
Author & Blogger, http://technosailor.com
Systems Admin, http://b5media.com
Sports Channel Editor, http://b5media.com
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[Computer Guru]

Oh.
Right.
That's a lot. I think if there is anything illegal in that we definitely should find out.
AFAIK you have two options: Make a big deal out of it and get users to donate, or find some other way of getting your hands on the source. That's insane. 7k USD!!!!
I'm in the Middle East, if you guys need someone to do the talking by phone in English or Arabic... but I have a feeling it's going to be hard.

Computer Guru
NeoSmart Technologies
http://neosmart.net/blog/

-----Original Message-----
From: wp-hackers-bounces@... [mailto:wp-hackers-bounces@...] On Behalf Of Aaron Brazell
Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2006 2:14 PM
To: wp-hackers@...
Subject: Re: [wp-hackers] anyone looked at Chameleon closely?

[snip]

By the way, the software is selling for 25000 AED or approx 6800 USD.
Pricey.

--
Aaron Brazell
Author & Blogger, http://technosailor.com Systems Admin, http://b5media.com Sports Channel Editor, http://b5media.com _______________________________________________
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[Angsuman Chakraborty]

> Many would argue that plugins are a derived work of WP and must use a GPL compatible license

derivative work is defined in copyright act. You can check it for yourself. By any stretch of definition plugins do not come under it.

Simple Thoughts <http://blog.taragana.com/>   Hot Computer Jobs

> This also gives you the best feel good karma since you are extending something on the same terms that it was given to you.

I disagree :) Plugins are plugin author's work. He may or may not feel the same generosity as the software author himself. It is karma as is any work but by no stretch of definition bad karma.

> GPL compatibility of plugins/modules is always a great topic for heating up mailing lists. :-)

You bet :)
-----Original Message-----
From: wp-hackers-bounces@...
[mailto:wp-hackers-bounces@...]On Behalf Of Ryan Boren
Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2006 8:50 AM
To: wp-hackers@...
Subject: Re: [wp-hackers] anyone looked at Chameleon closely?
Importance: Low


Angsuman Chakraborty wrote:
>>  Okay. NOW, is the plugin GPL?
>
> WordPress Plugins are not covered under GPL, if they do not explicitly decide to cover it under GPL (or variants).
>
> There was some discussion on this thread:
> http://blog.taragana.com/index.php/archive/a-gpl-license-question/
> I have tried to collate all the information here.

Many would argue that plugins are a derived work of WP and must use a
GPL compatible license since we don't have an API exception spelled out.
  Note that Creative Commons licenses are not GPL compatible and not
usually recommended for source code licensing. There are many opinions
on the matter though.  The safest thing is to GPL your plugins since WP
itself is GPLed. This also gives you the best feel good karma since you
are extending something on the same terms that it was given to you.  I
personally don't bother with plugins that aren't GPL and won't integrate
any of their code into WP so as to avoid license taint.  I don't get all
hot and bothered about the licensing though. I'll leave that to others.
  GPL compatibility of plugins/modules is always a great topic for
heating up mailing lists.  :-)

Ryan
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[Ryan Boren]

Angsuman Chakraborty wrote:
>> Many would argue that plugins are a derived work of WP and must use a GPL compatible license
>
> derivative work is defined in copyright act. You can check it for yourself. By any stretch of definition plugins do not come under it.

Like I said, many argue differently. This is a much debated point.  A
debate over this spawned the effort in the linux kernel to do the driver
license taint checking.  Your kernel is listed as tainted if the
declared license of any driver is not GPL-compatible, IIRC, and many
linux devs refuse to assist with problems involving tainted kernels.

Ryan
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[Matt Mullenweg]

David Chait wrote:
> Looks to be WP with a modded admin system, a bunch of custom plugins, and
> otherwise a claim to be their unique product.  Don't know how they 'sell' it
> (or GPL issues) but thought I'd bring it to the attention of folks around
> here. ;)

Great thread, let me try to summarize some of my thoughts, from 36,000 feet:

I can't speak for everyone, but all of my work on WP from the beginning
has been with the knowledge that someone would rip/sell/steal/etc any
and all of it. Just like giving people freedom to say whatever they want
means that they might say things that you disagree with, in the end I
think the inherent freedom is more important than control. In my
experience I've found the good far outweighs the bad. I've applied the
principles of "give as much away as possible" to other parts of my life
and it has been nothing but rewarding.


Even *if* there were some sort of awful license violation, in 99.9% of
cases it's not worth pursuing. The time and cost of a legal battle (in
another country, to top it off) would be energy far better spent on
bugs, support, features, etc. Besides, if the features are that great
it'd be better just to clean-room implement them as GPL rather than
extracting them forcibly from someone who doesn't want to share. (Not to
mention it would probably be 3-5x faster.)

I think supporting a platform you're building on is a no-brainer
business decision though, natural selection will do far more than legal
action in the long-run for these types of cases.


I have always recommended people doing development around WordPress
license their work as GPL, as I think that provides the most long-term
benefit for both the individual and the community. (It's a virtuous
cycle.) We've socially encouraged that with GPL requirements on
wp-plugins and in the theme competitions, and I think the flourishing of
those areas is a testament to the power of the GPL and open source.
(Thousands of examples are available outside of the WP ecosystem, too.)


When I see or hear about people who want to work for themselves or make
a living off of WordPress-related things but having trouble the problem
has never been with the license. If you want a Real Job with a Big
Company, don't you think organizations like New York Times and CNET that
are putting huge investments into using WordPress aren't crazy for
people who know the system really well? Watch Craigslist, Monster, etc
for listing with "WordPress" in them, they're popping up pretty commonly
now.

For people just looking for some extra beer/server money from their
work, the biggest mistake I see is simply not asking. Make it *really
easy* for people to find your Paypal or Amazon wishlist. I won't say how
many times I've tried to buy a book or something as a thank you for
people on this list and couldn't for love or money find something on
their site that enabled me to. (As an aside, if you're overseas try to
have a donation mechanism that's easy for US folks too.) Have a mailing
list for release announcements. If you'd work on something more if you
got more money, then tell people. Provide amazing free support and put a
"if you found this useful" link at the end of every email. If you're
open to people sponsoring features, or paid customizations, make that
obvious. Also consider publishing how much you get in donations, as most
people VASTLY overestimate donations, or they assume someone else is
doing it so they don't need to. Outright charging is usually not the
most successful model.

Finally, I think striking out on your own can be incredibly rewarding
and is a great lifestyle and challenge, though I know it's not for
everybody. Biggest mistake I see in this group is forgetting it's a
business, just like anything else. Buy or check out as many books about
small businesses, finances, entrepreneurship, etc as you can. At the
same time, don't forget to budget time for community. Before I started
left CNET and started Automattic I knew about a dozen people doing
full-time WP consulting and work, names you mostly don't know because
they were so caught up in their own work they weren't improving the core
platform they were building their livelihood on. I swore I wouldn't let
that happen, and luckily have found a model that allows 95+ percent of
work to be completely Open, but it's something you have to plan ahead of
time because it's very easy to get caught up. There are business models
around consulting, support, services, training, development,
advertising, and dozens of other things that can include and encourage
supporting Open Source.  I will happily phone chat for 30 minutes with
anyone in the WP community who is fleshing out a sustainable business
idea to strike it out on your own. I'm happy to share what I've found
worked and what didn't. If you need help, just ask!

--
Matt Mullenweg
  http://photomatt.net | http://wordpress.org
http://automattic.com | http://akismet.com

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[Mark Jaquith]

On Jun 9, 2006, at 11:05 PM, Matt Mullenweg wrote:

> For people just looking for some extra beer/server money from their  
> work, the biggest mistake I see is simply not asking. Make it  
> *really easy* for people to find your Paypal or Amazon wishlist. I  
> won't say how many times I've tried to buy a book or something as a  
> thank you for people on this list and couldn't for love or money  
> find something on their site that enabled me to. (As an aside, if  
> you're overseas try to have a donation mechanism that's easy for US  
> folks too.) Have a mailing list for release announcements. If you'd  
> work on something more if you got more money, then tell people.  
> Provide amazing free support and put a "if you found this useful"  
> link at the end of every email. If you're open to people sponsoring  
> features, or paid customizations, make that obvious. Also consider  
> publishing how much you get in donations, as most people VASTLY  
> overestimate donations, or they assume someone else is doing it so  
> they don't need to.

I can speak to the success of these tips from experience.  When I  
first put up a "Donate" button at the bottom of all my plugin pages  
[1], I got about $5 in 6 months.  Then, I was on someone else's site  
and I saw that they were posting how much money in donations they'd  
received that month.  The mindset is "well, this is popular code, so  
people MUST be donating."  And then you see the little line that says  
that they've received $5.00 and you feel a lot more inclined to hit  
that donate button!  Once I started posting how much money I'd  
received, donations went up considerably.  It's still not going to  
pay for my server, but it helps.  More than anything, it acts as  
encouragement.  I'd be doing it anyway, but sometimes you just need a  
(monetary) pat on the back.

> At the same time, don't forget to budget time for community.

> Before I started left CNET and started Automattic I knew about a  
> dozen people doing full-time WP consulting and work, names you  
> mostly don't know because they were so caught up in their own work  
> they weren't improving the core platform they were building their  
> livelihood on

If you make your living from WordPress-related services, you're  
really be stupid not to contribute back to the community.  If you're  
finding ways in which the software can be improved, and you're NOT  
sharing them, you're going to waste so much more time maintaining  
your separate fork that you won't have time to respond to the  
specific needs of your clients.  Besides, if you do work with  
WordPress, part of your job is convincing people that WordPress is  
the right tool for them.  If they read a review criticizing  
WordPress' poor handling of X, it might not help that you have a WP  
fork that addresses X... you've already lost the sale.

==
[1] http://txfx.net/code/wordpress/
--
Mark Jaquith
http://txfx.net/


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[Martin Diessner FlipMedia]

Dear all,

With interest I read the comments on this forum and others regarding Chameleon and WP.

First of all, I invite anyone to discuss this topic further to get in contact with me via www.flipcorpcom/contact/ as I am not always checking back to the site.

Secondly, please find a response the majority of comments:
1) We are not hiding or intend to hide the fact that WP is the core behind Chameleon. Chameleon is a marketing name for the plug-ins that Flip Media has developed and that we sell to our clients. Our sales people are trained to mention WP and we explain to all of our clients that we took WP and customized it with additional modules in order to make it relevant to their needs, e.g. Arabic support, Flash menus, e-commerce and so on.

2) We are not selling the product as an ASP model, e.g., we only implement Chameleon for our own clients. No one can buy Chameleon and then re-deploy or re-use under a commercial agreement in the name of Flip Media.

3) All Chameleon installations are hosted on Flip Media's own servers and not re-distributed on any other 3rd party servers.

4) We do not require clients to sign any NDA or other contracts or agreements (as somone mentions incorrectly on this post).

5) Regarding pricing, we do charge a consultancy fee approximately of 25,000 AED (depending on client, market, requirements) which is 6,800 US$ or 5,300 EUR which is a remuneration fee for our efforts of setting up the CMS with the additional modules that we programmed. I believe that it is fair to do so (and not breaking any GPL).

6) We are in the process of releasing some of our modules that we developed to the public - just completing some QA on the same. Anyone who knows us in the Middle East can confirm that we are one of the key driver of the interactive industry in the Middle East, not from a commercial point of view but always providing cutting edge technical and creative solutions to our clients. We released so much source code, given away sites for free / charity (check www.flipcorp.com/csr) and will continue to do so.

7) Source code is typically being acknowledged to the original author. Flip Media do so, publicly, in writing (here!), orally (with our sales staff) and everywhere. If in any cases we missed something, glitches happened, please let us know and we will correct. Please understand that we have more than 60 people employed in over 6 locations and 4 countries - at the end of the day its down to the individual and not easy to control. Again, we will make the effort and go through code and sites and correct whereever we find mistakes - and take your input into account. Anyone blaming us and claiming to be 100% perfect in coding, referencing, documenting etc. - please give me a call or apply for a job @ www.flipcorp.com/jobs - you got it!

I am not sure if I missed any points - if so pls contact me directly.

Finally let me close by thanking for the discussion raised and hopefully making some of the points clear.

Best regards

Martin Diessner
CEO
Flip Media
www.flipcorp.com

[Matt Mullenweg]

Martin Diessner FlipMedia wrote:
> Finally let me close by thanking for the discussion raised and hopefully
> making some of the points clear.

Thanks or dropping by. I'm sure many folks in the community are looking
forward to seeing some of the modules you're planning to release.

--
Matt Mullenweg
  http://photomatt.net | http://wordpress.org
http://automattic.com | http://akismet.com
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[Martin Diessner FlipMedia]

Matt, Please note that www.flipcorp.com/chameleon has been updated with documentation and tech specs and a full site demo and first module source code release has been published on the Flip Blog Spot. Thx Martin