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are we CRIMINALS?
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Re: are we CRIMINALS?
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Re: are we CRIMINALS?
>> jest first step to criminalize unix at all
>
> first step?
>
> Many Unix tools are considered illegal by German law since last summer.
>
could you mail me more about it ?
it's as stupid as considering knives to be illegal. yes i can kill with
knife, but i don't do this, and need it to slice a bread.
and there are 1000 other ways to kill - without knife
> Erich
>
can you type ls? ;)
things considered impossible 50 years ago, stupid/funny 30 years ago,
strange and unlikely 10 years ago, are true now.
Orwell should just change title from "1984" to "2010-15"
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Re: are we CRIMINALS?
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Re: are we CRIMINALS?
This should go to -chat.
Living just outside of Fargo, I find this interesting. I guess I better
not telnet to service ports to make sure HTTP/SMTP/IMAP/IPOP servers
are running.
Admininstratively, the Zone transfers should be restricted to secondary
peers. If a person constructed the walls of their house out of glass,
how can you complain that the neighbors that are capable of moving their
heads of watching you at night?
Sounds like the zone transfer is the foundation of the case of the serious
charges. I do not have sympathy for someone that attempts or conspires
with others to "home invasion" just because the house walls are made of
glass and they can see the fine china.
please move this to -chat.
--Mark Tinguely.
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Re: are we CRIMINALS?
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Re: are we CRIMINALS?
> Living just outside of Fargo, I find this interesting. I guess I better
> not telnet to service ports to make sure HTTP/SMTP/IMAP/IPOP servers
> are running.
it looks like slowly microsoft is doing their work - to change "internet"
to webbrowsing with everything else forbidden.
>
> Admininstratively, the Zone transfers should be restricted to secondary
of course, i do this, everyone who at least read documentation - do this
too.
> peers. If a person constructed the walls of their house out of glass,
> how can you complain that the neighbors that are capable of moving their
> heads of watching you at night?
you don't have to tell me (and others).
and the question is not if, but WHEN will we all be forced to use just one
type of computers, one operating system, one type of given program BY LAW.
Poland are not communist country since 1989, but for how long? how about
other countries?
what i think about such actions is that it's turning back to communism,
just not saying this.
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Re: are we CRIMINALS?
On Tuesday 22 January 2008 10:01:49 Wojciech Puchar wrote:
> > Wojciech Puchar wrote:
> >> Orwell should just change title from "1984" to "2010-15"
> >
> > Maybe it's just me, but this whole thing kinda feels like somebody
> > walking around the house naked and then suing an innocent passer-by
> > for seeing them naked.
> >
> > Oh my, this is so ridiculous...
>
> no it is EXACTLY like that!
>
Except that I can understand why the problem viewing Windows in the naked
metaphor -- it'd be a lot like being sued by Ernest Borgnine for looking at
him naked -- I'd be so busy gouging my eyes out that I wouldn't even notice
getting served with papers. For the common good, for your sanity, for the
good of your possible descendants, DON'T LOOK!!!
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Re: are we CRIMINALS?
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Re: are we CRIMINALS?
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Re: are we CRIMINALS?
Bill Moran wrote:
>>> Maybe it's just me, but this whole thing kinda feels like somebody
>>> walking around the house naked and then suing an innocent passer-by
>>> for seeing them naked.
>> no it is EXACTLY like that!
Not quite. Seeing somebody naked because they're stupid enough to run
around the house in the nude is no excuse for breaking in and raping said
idiot.
That being said, imho it's the breaking in and raping that should be
punished, not the having your eyes open.
Alphons
P.S. Sorry for replying to the wrong message, but I lost the original.
--
VISTA - Viruses Intruders Spyware Trojans Adware
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Re: are we CRIMINALS?
On Tue, 22 Jan 2008 13:03:27 +0100 (CET)
Wojciech Puchar < wojtek@...> wrote:
> http://www.spamsuite.com/node/351>
> jest first step to criminalize unix at all
No really. This case involved an individual who was accessing and
acquiring information using falsified credentials for an apparent
nefarious purpose.
If you have a key making machine, does that give you the right to make
a key to my home and then enter it without my permission? It is not the
'tool' that is being addressed here; but rather, what the individual
did with it. If this individual believed what he was purported to by
doing was legal and above board, then why did he openly commit perjury
and use falsified credentials? Quite frankly, it is criminals like him
who cause other lawful individuals problems.
--
Gerard
gerard@...
Using TSO is like kicking a dead whale down the beach.
S. C. Johnson
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Re: are we CRIMINALS?
In response to Gerard < gerard@...>:
> On Tue, 22 Jan 2008 13:03:27 +0100 (CET)
> Wojciech Puchar < wojtek@...> wrote:
>
> > http://www.spamsuite.com/node/351> >
> > jest first step to criminalize unix at all
>
> No really. This case involved an individual who was accessing and
> acquiring information using falsified credentials for an apparent
> nefarious purpose.
>
> If you have a key making machine, does that give you the right to make
> a key to my home and then enter it without my permission? It is not the
> 'tool' that is being addressed here; but rather, what the individual
> did with it. If this individual believed what he was purported to by
> doing was legal and above board, then why did he openly commit perjury
> and use falsified credentials? Quite frankly, it is criminals like him
> who cause other lawful individuals problems.
That's exactly the point. You are correct that it's the action, not the
tool, that is criminal.
However, it's being pushed all over the world to outlaw the _tools_. And
this case leaves a lot of ambiguity that hints that the tools themselves
are criminal in nature.
I think most everyone, me included, is concerned about that possible
side-effect. As far as the cracker, I hope he gets the chair.
--
Bill Moran
http://www.potentialtech.com_______________________________________________
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Re: are we CRIMINALS?
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Re: are we CRIMINALS?
On Tue, 22 Jan 2008 17:44:37 +0000
"Alphons \"Fonz\" van Werven" < a.j.werven@...> wrote:
> Gerard wrote:
>
> > It is not the 'tool' that is being addressed here; but rather, what
> > the individual did with it.
>
> CONCLUSIONS OF LAW
>
> 1. Ritz's behavior in conducting a zone transfer was unauthorized
> within the meaning of the North Dakota Computer Crime Law.
That is precisely what I am referring to.
Bill Moran makes a rather pointed comment:
<quote>
As far as the cracker, I hope he gets the chair.
</quote>
While that may seem slightly harsh, at least for a first offense, it
does point up the fact that people like Ritz are a blight upon the
legitimate computer users community.
--
Gerard
gerard@...
You can rent this space for only $5 a week.
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Re: are we CRIMINALS?
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Re: are we CRIMINALS?
Gerard wrote:
> While that may seem slightly harsh, at least for a first offense, it
> does point up the fact that people like Ritz are a blight upon the
> legitimate computer users community.
Agreed. But upon looking at something like this...
4. Ritz frequently accomplished his access to Sierra's computers by
concealing his identity via proxies and by accessing the servers via a
Unix operating system and using a shell accounts, among other methods.
...I really get the feeling that, besides (justly) convicting Ritz for
what he did, they seem under the impression that UNIX as a whole is evil
and good for nothing but "hacking" (as most people unfortunately call it).
Alphons
--
VISTA - Viruses Intruders Spyware Trojans Adware
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Re: are we CRIMINALS?
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Re: are we CRIMINALS?
On Tue, Jan 22, 2008 at 03:00:45PM +0100, Wojciech Puchar wrote:
> >>jest first step to criminalize unix at all
> >
> >first step?
> >
> >Many Unix tools are considered illegal by German law since last summer.
> >
>
> could you mail me more about it ?
>
> it's as stupid as considering knives to be illegal. yes i can kill with
> knife, but i don't do this, and need it to slice a bread.
> and there are 1000 other ways to kill - without knife
You probably think that's an absurd notion that nobody would ever enact,
and mean to show how absurd it is to outlaw `host -l` by drawing an
analogy with outlawing knives. Such an argument is dependent upon the
assumption that the guy listening to you thinks it's absurd to outlaw
knives.
Before making that assumption, however, you should have a look at laws
regarding knives in Scotland.
There's no end to the absurdity of law.
--
CCD CopyWrite Chad Perrin [ http://ccd.apotheon.org ]
Anonymous: "Eat your crow early, while it's young and tender. Don't wait
until it's old and tough."
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RE: are we CRIMINALS?
Paul, you do realize that Sierra is a known newsgroup spammer and
that the lawsuit in question was just filed against a spamfighter
by a spammer?
Also, that the "judgement" that is in the post is actually
a prepared order, written by Plaintiff's counsel, it wasn't
written by the judge.
This case is sitting in the appellate courts somewhere, gathering
dust. Nobody has paid anything to anybody, except to the lawyers.
Sierra makes their money selling to morons what Google gives
out for free.
Please, unless your willing to do the research, don't waste
time commenting.
Ted
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