cfquery & dynamic CSS?

[John Barrett]

My boss at the University is a on a usability kick:(

I am told that tables are not compliant code, now i am no CSS designer, but if you are pulling data from a database isn't this what tables are for?

I changed the layouts to be CSS based, but there is no way you can pull dynamic data from a query, and use CSS instead of tables is there?

I am even told that the forms must not use tables and only CSS, is this possible, and  If so anybody have examples?

Thanks in advanced,
Johnny

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|
Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists
Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-newbie/message.cfm/messageid:4772
Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-newbie/subscribe.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=17837.14401.15

[Rick Faircloth]

Hi, John...

I used to code all my sites using tables, then switched over
to CSS for flexibility.  However, just the fact that a designer/developer
uses CSS as opposed tables for layout won't determine whether or not
a site is more usable for visitors.  Usability is more about the
designer/developer's skill than it is about the tools used.

I enjoy using CSS and don't use tables often, but I definitely use them
when displaying tabular data.  A table is the best choice for tabular data,
even though CSS can be used for similar or the same results.

CSS does provide easier re-design of sites, but only if the stylesheets
are used well without any or much inline CSS.

It's nice, also, to be able to have a printer stylesheet to call upon
when users want hard copies of material.

And, too, it's my understanding that CSS-based design is faster loading
than tables...but given today's connection speeds I don't know how much
of an issue that might be...depends on the site and the server it's on.

What exactly are your boss's "usability" concerns?  Or is he/she really
talking about "accessibility?"


Rick

-----Original Message-----
From: John Barrett [mailto:barrjohnm@...]
Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2009 8:58 PM
To: cf-newbie
Subject: cfquery & dynamic CSS?


My boss at the University is a on a usability kick:(

I am told that tables are not compliant code, now i am no CSS designer, but
if you are pulling data from a database isn't this what tables are for?

I changed the layouts to be CSS based, but there is no way you can pull
dynamic data from a query, and use CSS instead of tables is there?

I am even told that the forms must not use tables and only CSS, is this
possible, and  If so anybody have examples?

Thanks in advanced,
Johnny



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|
Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists
Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-newbie/message.cfm/messageid:4773
Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-newbie/subscribe.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=17837.14401.15

[Eric Nicholas Sweeney]

John - I think Rick hit the mark with his comments. I would only add that
Usability isn't so much of a skill - as an understanding of user experience
- based on study and experience.

CSS vs Tables is not an issue of Usability - But perhaps Accessibility.  And
in my opinion - if you correctly code your pages - Tables shouldn't affect
Accessibility either. (Unless we are talking about SEO accessibility, then
that is  a different discussion all together... But still a minor point in
my view.)

I layout my pages in CSS. But I use tables for all my tabular/columned data.
That is what they were designed for - and they have specific tags to assist
Accessibility. (table head, table body, caption, etc)

When it comes to forms - Personally - I generally use tables there as well -
although depending on the length of the form - I could use CSS. (Again, I
personally find CSS a pain for 2 column data in a form though - and avoid
the headache if possible - but that probably speaks to my css knowledge...)

I believe - for forms you should technically be using Label tags for your
inputs rather than columns and table data cells.

>From w3.org:
   <LABEL for="firstname">First name:
     <INPUT type="text" id="firstname" tabindex="1">
   </LABEL>

And through your CSS you can modify how it lays out...

To make your Boss happy - just make sure you use text equivalents and
descriptions for all your labels, form elements and images. (Names, Alts,
Captions, etc.)

It's good coding practice and something I know everyone who posts to house
of fusion does on every page they code. *Cough* *Cough* Right Everyone?
*cough*

- Nick



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|
Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists
Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-newbie/message.cfm/messageid:4774
Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-newbie/subscribe.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=17837.14401.15

[John Barrett-5]

Hi Rick,
thank so much for getting back to me:)
Sorry to get back to you so late, but I was really bust transferring  
all the forms to CSS, yikes!

I will agree with you as far as usability goes the way the site was  
build does not seem to matter, well to me. there will always be that  
fight table VS. CSS for layout, etc.
i am new to CSS, and I am using lots of tutorials from Adobe's  
Dreamweaver Devnet, along with the templates that ship with CS 4. I am  
keeping all the styles in a separate css file,and nothing in the page  
itself, this is what you mean bu in-line? I have yet to figure out the  
print.css, but I did find an article on Adobe.

I am not sure what is going on but they say all University site must  
be compliant. I am just going for the test is to see if the html/CSS  
passing, then I figure I am cool, but I don't think that this means  
that the site is accessibility?

I have changed most of the site to CSS, except the tabular data, I  
will have to see if it is worth even trying with CSS.
thanks,
John

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|
Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists
Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-newbie/message.cfm/messageid:4775
Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-newbie/subscribe.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=17837.14401.15

[Rick Faircloth]

As a university site, I believe your boss is probably referring to
"accessibility" rather than just "usability", since there are probably
legal standards which may govern the development of public, state-funded
sites.

CSS can be a royal pain and takes a while get used to.  I think the main
thing to grasp early is how divs can be used...seeing how they work when
floated, positioned absolutely...how they relate to one another.  Get that
down
and then just start using them as containers for the various parts of your
site...
at least that's how I do it.

But CSS is going to most likely be a big part of your life as a
developer for a university. Section 508 Compliance, etc.  I decided not to
even
bid on a government contract when I saw that the bid paperwork, itself, was
about 25 pages long with requirements and restrictions, etc.  I just had too
much
work on my plate already to spend that kind of time on the project *bid*,
much less
the project itself!

www.section508.gov

hth,

Rick


-----Original Message-----
From: John Barrett [mailto:johnbarr@...]
Sent: Friday, August 28, 2009 5:13 AM
To: cf-newbie
Subject: Re: cfquery & dynamic CSS?


Hi Rick,
thank so much for getting back to me:)
Sorry to get back to you so late, but I was really bust transferring  
all the forms to CSS, yikes!

I will agree with you as far as usability goes the way the site was  
build does not seem to matter, well to me. there will always be that  
fight table VS. CSS for layout, etc.
i am new to CSS, and I am using lots of tutorials from Adobe's  
Dreamweaver Devnet, along with the templates that ship with CS 4. I am  
keeping all the styles in a separate css file,and nothing in the page  
itself, this is what you mean bu in-line? I have yet to figure out the  
print.css, but I did find an article on Adobe.

I am not sure what is going on but they say all University site must  
be compliant. I am just going for the test is to see if the html/CSS  
passing, then I figure I am cool, but I don't think that this means  
that the site is accessibility?

I have changed most of the site to CSS, except the tabular data, I  
will have to see if it is worth even trying with CSS.
thanks,
John



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|
Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists
Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-newbie/message.cfm/messageid:4776
Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-newbie/subscribe.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=17837.14401.15

[John Barrett]

Hi Rick,
Thanks for your help`-`
Yes I think that you are right,a s there is take about "people with disabilities" and access to the sites.

I guess I thought that the two were the same thing, as they did ask about the 508 stuff,
now I heard about it, but never until clicking on your link did I read anything about it.

The only good thing I can say about the site for section 508 is that it is in ColdFuson.

Yes, I think that CSS is a royal pain!! Yes I think that you are right, that CSS & lots of paperwork is part of being a developer at the University, which is probably just a step below for working for the government as far as paperwork goes, well at least in Hawaii. I am actually just a student helper, but love the job because I get to code in ColdFusion.

Thank for the advice, I have been doing lots of reading on CSS, and it is turing out not to be such a nightmare, a little though however. Yeah I am starting to see the structure with div tags too. I was able to build a form in CSS, and this is a good start


Thanks,
John


     

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|
Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists
Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-newbie/message.cfm/messageid:4777
Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-newbie/subscribe.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=17837.14401.15

[Rick Faircloth]

One of the things that helped me the most when I was trying to grasp
how layout is achieved with CSS was to find a free CSS-layout template
on the web (just search for "free CSS web design templates" and you should
get a ton of links), download it, and put it in my local development system.

Then, I went through the template's code (css & html), line-by-line, and
made small changes
to the code to see how it affected the site.  I would tinker, at first, with
just font-styles, colors, borders, etc...things that didn't affect layout.

Then, I started playing around with the positioning of div's and other
structural
pieces of the code and watched what happened.  That gave me the benefit of
seeing,
in a complete site, how certain changes affected everything on the page.

After I did that to a couple of templates the css-layout "thing" began to
make sense.
But I'm still learning...constantly...

Rick

-----Original Message-----
From: John Barrett [mailto:barrjohnm@...]
Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2009 4:00 AM
To: cf-newbie
Subject: Re: cfquery & dynamic CSS?


Hi Rick,
Thanks for your help`-`
Yes I think that you are right,a s there is take about "people with
disabilities" and access to the sites.

I guess I thought that the two were the same thing, as they did ask about
the 508 stuff,
now I heard about it, but never until clicking on your link did I read
anything about it.

The only good thing I can say about the site for section 508 is that it is
in ColdFuson.

Yes, I think that CSS is a royal pain!! Yes I think that you are right, that
CSS & lots of paperwork is part of being a developer at the University,
which is probably just a step below for working for the government as far as
paperwork goes, well at least in Hawaii. I am actually just a student
helper, but love the job because I get to code in ColdFusion.

Thank for the advice, I have been doing lots of reading on CSS, and it is
turing out not to be such a nightmare, a little though however. Yeah I am
starting to see the structure with div tags too. I was able to build a form
in CSS, and this is a good start


Thanks,
John


     



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|
Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists
Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-newbie/message.cfm/messageid:4778
Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-newbie/subscribe.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=17837.14401.15

[Maureen-2]

Tables for layout as passe.  But tables for displaying data in a
table-like structure are perfectly acceptable.

There is a really good book called Everything You Know About CSS is
Wrong! by Rachel Andrew and Kevin Yank that explains this issue in
depth and shows you how to do it both ways.

On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 5:58 PM, John  Barrett<barrjohnm@...> wrote:

>
> My boss at the University is a on a usability kick:(
>
> I am told that tables are not compliant code, now i am no CSS designer, but if you are pulling data from a database isn't this what tables are for?
>
> I changed the layouts to be CSS based, but there is no way you can pull dynamic data from a query, and use CSS instead of tables is there?
>
> I am even told that the forms must not use tables and only CSS, is this possible, and  If so anybody have examples?
>
> Thanks in advanced,
> Johnn

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|
Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists
Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-newbie/message.cfm/messageid:4787
Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-newbie/subscribe.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=17837.14401.15

[John Barrett-5]

Hi Rick,

yes Today I started tearing into CSS code(well if you can call it  
that), and I am starting to learn a lot!
I actually build a simple two column layout thanks to looking at the  
free css templates, along with a book example.

I downloaded the code to the book, and I learn so much! I just played  
with everything, and I also followed this tutorial:
http://www.webreference.com/authoring/style/sheets/css_mastery/index.html

which lead me to this:
http://www.friendsofed.com/book.html?isbn=1590596145

which is a great intro to making layouts in CSS, and a lot more.

Thanks so much for all your help, I still think that CSS is a real  
pain, but after the last few days at least I know that it is possible`-`
Thanks,
John

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|
Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists
Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-newbie/message.cfm/messageid:4789
Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-newbie/subscribe.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=17837.14401.15

[Maureen-2]

CSS is a real pain -  until you learn it.  Then you'll wonder how you
ever built websites without it.  If you learn it very well, it will
make your life much easier.

On Sun, Aug 30, 2009 at 1:49 AM, John Barrett<johnbarr@...> wrote:
> Thanks so much for all your help, I still think that CSS is a real
> pain, but after the last few days at least I know that it is possible`-`

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|
Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists
Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-newbie/message.cfm/messageid:4797
Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-newbie/subscribe.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=17837.14401.15

[John Barrett-5]

Hi Maureen,
Yeah I see this, as you can control things in one css file instead of  
changing the table widths on every page.
I am not sure if I will become that great at it, hopefully good enough  
to get the job done`-`

John

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|
Want to reach the ColdFusion community with something they want? Let them know on the House of Fusion mailing lists
Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-newbie/message.cfm/messageid:4798
Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-newbie/subscribe.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=17837.14401.15