diffusion as an art-form

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diffusion as an art-form

by Kim Cascone :: Rate this Message:

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>
> Playback and diffusion are very different things and should not be  
> conflated.  Diffusing a recorded piece is a real-time performance in  
> its own right.  In the concerts of electroacoustic music that I have  
> attended, the diffusers are given credit and applause for their work,  
> essentially treated as musicians partially responsible for realizing a  
> composer's work.
sorry for hijacking your thread but I really liked your description of
diffusion

what amazes me is how many people in the various arts (dance, film, etc)
have no knowledge of the 'art of diffusion'...

I recently ran into a situation where the person I was collaborating
with (I use the term 'collaborating' very loosely here) had no clue as
to what I was talking about when I explained the difference between
composing an electro-acoustic work and then diffusing it in public and
how they were separate art-forms that intersected but were still
distinct from one another

it was very frustrating to work with someone who thinks computer music
is composed with a push of a few buttons and easily changed/modified
during a performance...

there ought to be a law...




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Re: diffusion as an art-form

by Milan Davidovic-2 :: Rate this Message:

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On Fri, Jun 12, 2009 at 3:19 PM, Kim Cascone<kim@...> wrote:
> what amazes me is how many people in the various arts (dance, film, etc)
> have no knowledge of the 'art of diffusion'...

Where would you send them to learn about it?

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Re: diffusion as an art-form

by craquemattic :: Rate this Message:

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In my opinion, the discipline of improvisation.

Milan Davidovic wrote:
> On Fri, Jun 12, 2009 at 3:19 PM, Kim Cascone<kim@...> wrote:
>> what amazes me is how many people in the various arts (dance, film, etc)
>> have no knowledge of the 'art of diffusion'...
>
> Where would you send them to learn about it?
>
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Re: diffusion as an art-form

by traktorman@gmail.com :: Rate this Message:

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diffusion, osmosis, definately F.Lopez

2009/6/12 CraqueMat <craque@...>
In my opinion, the discipline of improvisation.

Milan Davidovic wrote:
> On Fri, Jun 12, 2009 at 3:19 PM, Kim Cascone<kim@...> wrote:
>> what amazes me is how many people in the various arts (dance, film, etc)
>> have no knowledge of the 'art of diffusion'...
>
> Where would you send them to learn about it?
>
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Re: diffusion as an art-form

by Randolph Jordan :: Rate this Message:

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Here are a couple of good places to start reading about the art of diffusion:

Moore, Adrian, Dave Moore, James Mooney.  “M2 Diffusion: The Live Diffusion of Sound in Space.”  Proceedings of the 2004 International Conference on Music and Computers.  Miami: USA, 2004: 317-320.

http://sheffield.academia.edu/AdrianMoore/Papers/91459/M2-Diffusion-%E2%80%93-The-live-diffusion-of-sound-in-space

Moore, Moore, and Mooney give a good concise definition of diffusion, a brief technical history of the art, and the results of some of their research into new diffusion technologies.

*

Truax, Barry.  "Composition & Diffusion: Space in Sound in Space."  Organised Sound, 3(2):141-146.

http://www.sfu.ca/~truax/bourges.html

Truax gives a more technical description of his own research into the art of diffusion, but I like the way he distinguishes between composition and diffusion as "shaping the space inside the sound" vs "shaping the sound inside the space."

*

Enjoy!

Randolph.








On 12-Jun-09, at 3:30 PM, CraqueMat wrote:

Milan Davidovic wrote:
On Fri, Jun 12, 2009 at 3:19 PM, Kim Cascone<kim@...> wrote:
what amazes me is how many people in the various arts (dance, film, etc)
have no knowledge of the 'art of diffusion'...

Where would you send them to learn about it?



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Re: diffusion as an art-form

by Eric Mattson :: Rate this Message:

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tkrakowiak a écrit :

>
> diffusion, osmosis, definately F.Lopez
>
> 2009/6/12 CraqueMat <craque@... <mailto:craque@...>>
>
>     In my opinion, the discipline of improvisation.
>
>     Milan Davidovic wrote:
>     > On Fri, Jun 12, 2009 at 3:19 PM, Kim
>     Cascone<kim@... <mailto:kim@...>> wrote:
>     >> what amazes me is how many people in the various arts (dance,
>     film, etc)
>     >> have no knowledge of the 'art of diffusion'...
>     >
>     > Where would you send them to learn about it?
>     >
>     _______________________________________________
>

to me ?!?!?!

This may sound pretentious, but learning from other disciplines -despite
the topic of this talk- and from some performers which has have
developped difusion as an art. i do put a lot of emphasis on the
condition of diffusion, the context vs the artist contents. Thinking
about it is the heart of audio curating.

Eric

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Re: diffusion as an art-form

by Michal Seta :: Rate this Message:

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The unfortunate fact of learning diffusion is that you need a number
of speakers (and really, the most fun is if you have over 20) and a
large enough space to actually appreciate what you do.  There are a
number of universities that organize acousmatic concerts on a regular
basis and i think a good start is to go to those concerts and first
get a feel of how it is done by someone experienced.  And then, look
out for workshops or, if there is an institution that organizes such
concerts, ask to practice, or something.  It would be best to hear
different people performing the same pieces, that's where you get the
idea.  After all the music does not change it is only the spacial
placement of various musical events that actually changes the whole
experience.

I was fortunate enough to attend some diffusion workshops in the mid-
to late 90s in Montréal when Réseaux was organizing the concert series
called Rien à voir (nothing to see).  During the series they had
invited (and local) electroacoustic composers conduct workshops in
diffusion.  A masterclass of sorts.  It was great not only as
performance practice but also helped to understand the pieces you
worked on (not to mention actually "learn" them).  And it is one thing
diffusing your own music and another diffusing someone else's.

Also see:
cec.concordia.ca/econtact/Diffusion/pracdiff.htm
The website is currently down (since Thursday) but it should come back
sooner or later (perhaps you can google for "econtact diffusion" and
read the cached article or wayback machine may have cached it, too).

Diffusion is great fun.

./MiS

On Fri, Jun 12, 2009 at 4:06 PM, Eric Mattson<oral@...> wrote:

> tkrakowiak a écrit :
>>
>> diffusion, osmosis, definately F.Lopez
>>
>> 2009/6/12 CraqueMat <craque@... <mailto:craque@...>>
>>
>>     In my opinion, the discipline of improvisation.
>>
>>     Milan Davidovic wrote:
>>     > On Fri, Jun 12, 2009 at 3:19 PM, Kim
>>     Cascone<kim@... <mailto:kim@...>> wrote:
>>     >> what amazes me is how many people in the various arts (dance,
>>     film, etc)
>>     >> have no knowledge of the 'art of diffusion'...
>>     >
>>     > Where would you send them to learn about it?
>>     >
>>     _______________________________________________
>>
>
> to me ?!?!?!
>
> This may sound pretentious, but learning from other disciplines -despite
> the topic of this talk- and from some performers which has have
> developped difusion as an art. i do put a lot of emphasis on the
> condition of diffusion, the context vs the artist contents. Thinking
> about it is the heart of audio curating.
>
> Eric
>
> _______________________________________________
> microsound mailing list
> microsound@...
> http://or8.net/mailman/listinfo/microsound
>



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./MiS
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http://www.creazone.ca
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Parent Message unknown Re: diffusion as an art-form

by greg g :: Rate this Message:

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> it was very frustrating to work with someone who thinks computer music
> is composed with a push of a few buttons and easily changed/modified
> during a performance...


i think it's necessary that a good portion of the electronic music audience believes on some level that what they're hearing is "played" live to support the basic notions of what constitutes 'performance' that have existed prior to electronic music, when in reality that's hardly the case.  the performer usually tries to uphold this facade, and the shared suspension of disbelief is what most live laptop music seems to be based on, especially of the rhythmic type.  that's not to say that many audience members and performers don't realize they only have a limited role, and that there are other ways of enjoying an event than simply convincing everyone that a performance is in fact occurring, but that given the option, they (audience and performer) either downplay this aspect or ignore it as much as possible and focus on something else, either the sounds themselves, dancing, or watching the performer play a solo on one keyboard on top of what is clearly a pre-programmed backing track.  if the effect seems to be of no significance, consider how a dance show typically on a laptop or dj setup would go off if the performer just put on a cd in a discman and walked off stage.  there needs to be these performance signifiers such as turntables or a laptop and midi controllers to convince the audience, but in reality, the audience can't be empirically certain that that's really where the sound is coming from or exactly how much is pre-programmed and how much is real-time.
 
however, if you watch an electronic music performance with analog synthesizers or microphones, pedals, no preset memory patches, it's more or less all live, so i think this issue only really comes into play when one introduces tapes, cds, samplers, and laptops into the proceedings, a decision that should be taken seriously as a real paradigm shift regarding performance expectations.  on the other end of the spectrum, diffusion seems to be something to be avoided, only actual academic musicians and chin-scratchers really embrace this concept where the sound's accuracy to the composition is so critical that they go so far as to eliminate the performance entirely.  the rest out there seems to be an extention of the 'rock' performance world, and i think there's nothing wrong with that per se, but the problem is that in actuality, most of the 'dance/rock' oriented electronic music is just as preset as the academic stuff but with the pretense that it isn't, it still has the vestigial gestures and trappings of rock to provide a focal point and create the illusion of performance, because there's really no other option.  personally, i don't see that there is much merit in either approach, i have to create all the sounds in real time without presets or prerecorded sounds or i have trouble considering it a real performance, and i find that my favorite performances are ones in which i can be entirely certain as to what degree the sound is performed and preset (if at all).  sure, diffusion is a good idea in theory assuming everyone adjusts performance expectations accordingly, but i have trouble attending an event with all the trappings of a performance just to hear a prerecorded piece.  always a disappointment on some level, the music is never good enough to justify sacrificing the potential for a performance.  i'd rather just listen to it at home, even if it's poeme electronique and all the greats, as the case was with the san francisco tape music festival this past year.  i'd have preferred a real performance even if the actual sound was less organized or had no historical importance.  there simply isn't anything that can compare with a good real-time performance in my book, and these can be hard to come by in the electronic music world because they're seriously underrated in favor of controllable, predictable, "good"-sounding digital music, most of which has no performance justification at all.  better to sacrifice quality and compositional organization in favor of unpredictibility, viscerality, and audience participation.  actually, quality is pretty relative since most of the straight laptop performance stuff winds up sounding bad on top of being boring anyway.
 


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Parent Message unknown Re: diffusion as an art-form

by Neil Clopton :: Rate this Message:

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On Fri, Jun 12, 2009 at 3:06 PM, <microsound-request@...> wrote:
bout what that art might be.  if you lean a guitar against an amplifier and walk away for the entire feedback performance, you wouldn't think of crediting "gibson guitar and fender reverb deluxe amp" for the performance in any seriousness,

I wouldn't be so sweeping.  Yes, it sounds silly at first blush but it depends on the specifics of the performance and the intentions of the person setting up the conditions for feedback, doesn't it?

Without going into the boring bits that distinguish guitar pickups let me say that they are not all alike and will feedback differently.  If I were taking advantage of such differences to get a specific quality of feedback the "identity" of the guitar becomes relevant.

Likewise, if the feedback performance is, in my mind, ABOUT the relationship between human and instrument (implied by the absence of the human) I have another reason to credit the inanimate objects I used. 

-Neil
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Parent Message unknown Re: diffusion as an art-form

by greg g :: Rate this Message:

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whoops, i see my idea of what diffusion was is inaccurate.  i think i'm talking more about installations or performances where the computer is alone onstage being the academic approach.  i see diffusion is about spatial organization of prerecorded sounds in real time?  that's performance to a degree, but in any case, the underlying question is still there about how far and in what regard do performers and composers go to convince audience members that what they are hearing is in real time, i.e., reflecting their immediate needs as an audience to be played to rather than played at.


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Re: diffusion as an art-form

by Randolph Jordan :: Rate this Message:

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One of the key reasons why concerts of pre-recorded music are presented in public is so that the music can be heard from a better source, on a better sound system, and in a better space than most of us have access to at home.  Though created in the studio, much electroacoustic music is designed for playback in conditions that do not exist in most homes, just as movies are created for the cinema rather than the home theatre.  While it is certainly possible to enjoy a movie at home, a DVD on even the finest home theatre set-up simply cannot even come close to a print projected in a fine cinema house.  The same is true of music.  Live presentation of recorded works affords the public the opportunity to hear pieces presented in formats that are not available for the home market; the playback system in a good venue is better than what most of us have available at home; and a proper concert hall has much better acoustics than even the best home listening rooms.  So if you take questions of performance out of the equation, there can still be great benefit to hearing recorded works presented in a public venue.  

Importantly, this is precisely where the work of the diffuser comes in.  Regardless of whether or not we respect the diffusion as a performance, it is the diffusion that allows for a studio piece recorded on a fixed-medium to become a site-specific event.  The diffuser translates the original mix into the specific playback system and architecture of the concert venue, and allows for a unique experience of a recorded work that cannot be replicated in any other context.  Sure, there are many crappy venues with poor playback systems that won't do justice to the compositional intention behind a good piece.  And there are many inadequate diffusers out there too.  But this is true of live music as well, and I have experienced many venues and sound systems poor enough to negate the value of hearing the musicians live.  A good many of the live musician concerts I've been to have made me wish I could have a recording of that performance to listen to at home (which, happily, is often only a couple mouse clicks away nowadays).  But given the right conditions, the presentation of a recorded work in a public venue with the help of good diffusion can, in my opinion, easily equal the uniqueness of any event involving live musicians performing music on a stage.  This is something you just can't get at home.

Randolph.

On 12-Jun-09, at 4:46 PM, greg g wrote:

i'd rather just listen to it at home


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Parent Message unknown Re: diffusion as an art-form

by greg g :: Rate this Message:

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> Without going into the boring bits that distinguish guitar pickups let me
> say that they are not all alike and will feedback differently. If I were
> taking advantage of such differences to get a specific quality of feedback
> the "identity" of the guitar becomes relevant.
 
i'm not saying performers and composers shouldn't go ahead and make distinctions about what instruments with specific identities and properties are required for the piece, i'm talking about whether they should be credited on par with the composers and performers themselves as intelligent lifeforms choosing consciously to make art.  you can say to an audience or a performer, the composer requires this particular computer or amplifier for the job, sure, and this computer or amplifier may even be the only unaccompanied aspect of the stage performance, but that's a long way from _crediting_ the performance or the idea of a performance to a particular computer or amplifier.  you don't list it as the beach boys -  "good vibrations" (wilson, love, gibson guitars, 16 channel mixing desk, theremin, a bunch of session musicians, upright bass, etc etc), you list it as the beach boys - "good vibrations" (wilson, love), the collective performers being the beach boys, the composers being wilson and love and instruments not having anything to do with this procedure.  the equipment and specifics are tools and means to the end, and effect the end to be sure but aren't the performers and aren't the composers, they're specific tools and will be nothing more until they develop intelligent artistic decision-making capabilities of their own.  obviously with artifical intelligence and computers, they are doing some kind of thinking, but even with something like brian eno's generative stuff, it always comes back to the human who instructed the machine to act according to a certain set of instructions.  when computers or non-human lifeforms begin complex thinking for themselves and creating art intrinsically without any human input, hal 9000, alpha 60, i think they can then be credited either has composers or as performers of other people's (or thing's) pieces.  but fortunately hal 9000 doesn't exist yet, and when it does exist it probably won't give a hoot about making music unless it's useful to enslave humanity or something.  how about dave soldier's thai elephant orchestra?  that's a more interesting case, i think elephants may arguably have much stronger artistic decision-making capabilities than computers, although obviously there's a lot of human input and conditioning at hand in both cases.  in any case, it's fair to say that neither of these species or things would be doing anything remotely artistic if not for humans, so i don't think they're really subject to be credited for even being performers, i still think they're just tools or instruments for human composers or performers at best, albeit 'generative' and unpredictable in many regards.
 


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Re: diffusion as an art-form

by Damian Stewart :: Rate this Message:

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 > Randolph Jordan wrote:
 >> greg g wrote:
>> i'd rather just listen to it at home
> One of the key reasons why concerts of pre-recorded music are presented
> in public is so that the music can be heard from a better source, on a
> better sound system, and in a better space than most of us have access
> to at home.

this makes the interesting assumption that better sound system == better
music.

i'm not sure about that. one of my issues with the academic 'system' (i
speak from my point of reference, which is the Birmingham school of
compositional ideas to which my university subscribed) is a requirement
that the gear be top-notch, that all the DACs/ADCs be totally noise free,
that the monitor speakers in the studio be $50k beasts, all in the pursuit
of making the technology as transparent (== colourless) as possible,
therefore allowing the music its fullest expression.

i think this is bollocks, and symptomatic of an important disconnect
between laptop music and non-laptop music (laptop improv/noise, where the
laptop is treated like a fancy guitar pedal in a more traditional feedback
loop, is another matter) -- namely, laptop music is all about the 'sound',
which really doesn't matter so much in most other forms of music. the
people who do well playing laptop (
http://evolvingmusic.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/girl-talk.jpg )
acknowledge the social aspect...

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Re: diffusion as an art-form

by Randolph Jordan :: Rate this Message:

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On 13-Jun-09, at 9:33 AM, Damian Stewart wrote:

> this makes the interesting assumption that better sound system ==  
> better
> music.

I have made no such assumption.  My previous post responded to Greg's  
assertion that he'd "rather just listen to it at home," a statement  
that implies the music is good enough to WANT to hear it, but that the  
home listening experience is somehow better than public presentation.  
Given the assumption that a piece of music is good, I offered a set of  
reasons why hearing this piece in a concert venue might be preferable  
to a home listening situation.

True, a good listening environment cannot make up for bad music  
(though on occasion I have been emotionally moved by the quality of  
sound at a good venue regardless of my feelings about the music  
itself).  And yes, the sound quality of the playback system really  
doesn't matter for certain kinds of music.  For example, a piece of  
pop music designed for mp3 distribution won't benefit much from a  
sound system with excellent frequency response above 16K because these  
frequencies simply aren't there in the original piece.  On the other  
hand, to play a piece of music with lots of high frequency detail on a  
system with poor response in this area will actually take away from  
the composition itself.

In the end the question of playback equipment/venue comes down to  
respecting compositional intent.  You'd be hard pressed to convince a  
composer of symphonic music that the playback sound quality of their  
composition isn't important.  If the relationship between all the  
different parts of a symphony's violin section are an important part  
of compositional form, a playback system that can't properly  
differentiate between these various parts actually REMOVES part of the  
composition, thus affecting its form.  This is why symphonic music is  
best heard live in a concert hall.  A proper live concert hall  
situation doesn't ensure that the composition will be good, but it  
does give the audience their best chance of hearing the piece as it  
was intended to be heard.  The same can be true for a piece of  
computer music designed for playback on equipment that doesn't exist  
in most home listening situations.  The ideal concert situation allows  
the piece to be presented according the composer's intentions.

If the music is bad, then it's bad.  But how can you properly judge  
the music if you haven't heard ALL of it?  Hearing all of a piece of  
music is what a proper concert environment is supposed to allow, in  
turn allowing the audience to judge the music effectively.  I agree  
wholeheartedly with Damian's point is about the perils of emphasizing  
equipment over compositional skill; I'll take the latter over the  
former any day.  But when compositional skill is intertwined with  
particular presentation requirements, the relationship between the two  
needs to be respected.  This respect is the benefit that a good  
concert presentation has over the vast majority of home listening  
situations.

Randolph.
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