distributed opentype or truetype

[Qianqian Fang-3]

hi

I have been thinking about this for a while, but I could not find
a good solution. I hope to get some advice from this list.

Basically, what I am looking for is a way/format to package
a font into multiple font files; each one covers one or a number
of unicode zones but share a common font/family name;
they can be used separately and together.

This need came form my CJK font project where we have been
constantly adding new glyphs in various CJK zones. As a result,
the font started from GB2312+Big5 and then grew into GBK
(same as unicode CJK unified ideographs), then expanded to
CJK ext A, and now we are adding CJK ext B glyphs. If I use a
single font file, the file size will be getting fairly big. This may
discourage its use in some situations, such as in embedded
systems (where GB2312 may be just sufficient).

It seems Type0 ps font to allow composite of sub-fonts, but I am
hesitate to use any of the PS fonts, as my font file will simple
double and I am going to loose many features offered by
truetype.

I also understand I can name them with different font names,
and then use fontconfig to synthesize them by defining fallback
relations. Still, not as neat a solution as I am expecting, since
I hope it can be OS independent.

Does TrueType/OpenType support distributed files? if it does, can
I do it with fontforge?

thanks

Qianqian


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[mpsuzuki]

Hi,

2 years ago, in OpenType mailing list, there was
a discussion whether OpenType spec. has already supported
(or will support) the inclusion of huge glyph collection
> 64k.  Some people had insisted that there were existing
TrueType fonts including so many glyphs > 64k. Nothing to
say, it violates TrueType spec., and considering the
interoperability with existing implementations of TrueType
rasterizers, most developers didn't recognize such dirty
hack as right direction.

Anyway, most experts had recognized the requirement of the
portable method to provide a "face" including huge glyph
collection > 64k. Their discussion had switched to specify
an XML-based "composite font" file format that can assign
the component fonts to small Unicode ranges. Now ISO/IEC
JTC1/SC29/WG11 carries over the project.

As a base of the design, the idea of "FontFamily" of
Microsoft Windows Presentation Framework (WPF) was chosen.
        http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/system.windows.media.fontfamily.aspx
When I get a draft for public review, I will send it you.

One of the difficulty to support XML-based composite font
is that it cannot be supported by FreeType2 only. Thinking
about Unix-like systems, the combination of libxml, FreeType2,
fontconfig (at least) would be required. I'm quite questionable
about the migration cost for existing applications which
use raw FT_Face object as a face object.

Regards,
mpsuzuki

On Tue, 08 Sep 2009 19:21:45 -0400
Qianqian Fang <fangq@...> wrote:

>hi
>
>I have been thinking about this for a while, but I could not find
>a good solution. I hope to get some advice from this list.
>
>Basically, what I am looking for is a way/format to package
>a font into multiple font files; each one covers one or a number
>of unicode zones but share a common font/family name;
>they can be used separately and together.
>
>This need came form my CJK font project where we have been
>constantly adding new glyphs in various CJK zones. As a result,
>the font started from GB2312+Big5 and then grew into GBK
>(same as unicode CJK unified ideographs), then expanded to
>CJK ext A, and now we are adding CJK ext B glyphs. If I use a
>single font file, the file size will be getting fairly big. This may
>discourage its use in some situations, such as in embedded
>systems (where GB2312 may be just sufficient).
>
>It seems Type0 ps font to allow composite of sub-fonts, but I am
>hesitate to use any of the PS fonts, as my font file will simple
>double and I am going to loose many features offered by
>truetype.
>
>I also understand I can name them with different font names,
>and then use fontconfig to synthesize them by defining fallback
>relations. Still, not as neat a solution as I am expecting, since
>I hope it can be OS independent.
>
>Does TrueType/OpenType support distributed files? if it does, can
>I do it with fontforge?
>
>thanks
>
>Qianqian
>
>
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>what you do best, core application coding. Discover what's new with
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[Behdad Esfahbod-3]

On 09/08/2009 09:48 PM, mpsuzuki@... wrote:

> One of the difficulty to support XML-based composite font
> is that it cannot be supported by FreeType2 only. Thinking
> about Unix-like systems, the combination of libxml, FreeType2,
> fontconfig (at least) would be required. I'm quite questionable
> about the migration cost for existing applications which
> use raw FT_Face object as a face object.

I disagree.  Applications working with FT_Face directly typically do not
handle complex text.  While this is not an issue for CJK, it's more reasonable
to expect apps that want to support huge glyph collections to also support
complex text.

Moreover, fontconfig has supported multiple fonts with the same family name
and different coverage since, forever I believe.  Even better, those faces can
be bundled in a single TTC file.  This works in Pango and other fontconfig
based systems with font fallback support already.

behdad

> Regards,
> mpsuzuki
>
> On Tue, 08 Sep 2009 19:21:45 -0400
> Qianqian Fang<fangq@...>  wrote:
>
>> hi
>>
>> I have been thinking about this for a while, but I could not find
>> a good solution. I hope to get some advice from this list.
>>
>> Basically, what I am looking for is a way/format to package
>> a font into multiple font files; each one covers one or a number
>> of unicode zones but share a common font/family name;
>> they can be used separately and together.
>>
>> This need came form my CJK font project where we have been
>> constantly adding new glyphs in various CJK zones. As a result,
>> the font started from GB2312+Big5 and then grew into GBK
>> (same as unicode CJK unified ideographs), then expanded to
>> CJK ext A, and now we are adding CJK ext B glyphs. If I use a
>> single font file, the file size will be getting fairly big. This may
>> discourage its use in some situations, such as in embedded
>> systems (where GB2312 may be just sufficient).
>>
>> It seems Type0 ps font to allow composite of sub-fonts, but I am
>> hesitate to use any of the PS fonts, as my font file will simple
>> double and I am going to loose many features offered by
>> truetype.
>>
>> I also understand I can name them with different font names,
>> and then use fontconfig to synthesize them by defining fallback
>> relations. Still, not as neat a solution as I am expecting, since
>> I hope it can be OS independent.
>>
>> Does TrueType/OpenType support distributed files? if it does, can
>> I do it with fontforge?
>>
>> thanks
>>
>> Qianqian
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>> trial. Simplify your report design, integration and deployment - and focus on
>> what you do best, core application coding. Discover what's new with
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[mpsuzuki]

Behdad Esfahbod wrote (2009/09/09 13:58):

> On 09/08/2009 09:48 PM, mpsuzuki@... wrote:
>
>> One of the difficulty to support XML-based composite font
>> is that it cannot be supported by FreeType2 only. Thinking
>> about Unix-like systems, the combination of libxml, FreeType2,
>> fontconfig (at least) would be required. I'm quite questionable
>> about the migration cost for existing applications which
>> use raw FT_Face object as a face object.
>
> I disagree.  Applications working with FT_Face directly typically do not
> handle complex text.  While this is not an issue for CJK, it's more
> reasonable to expect apps that want to support huge glyph collections to
> also support complex text.

Oh, it's good news to hear that the cost for your projects
to migrate to XML-based composite font is not so serious for you.
When I post previous message, I guessed Pango and cairo would
be the most asked-but-difficult libraries to migrate.
Your reply sounds encouraging very much!

Regards,
mpsuzuki

>> On Tue, 08 Sep 2009 19:21:45 -0400
>> Qianqian Fang<fangq@...>  wrote:
>>
>>> hi
>>>
>>> I have been thinking about this for a while, but I could not find
>>> a good solution. I hope to get some advice from this list.
>>>
>>> Basically, what I am looking for is a way/format to package
>>> a font into multiple font files; each one covers one or a number
>>> of unicode zones but share a common font/family name;
>>> they can be used separately and together.
>>>
>>> This need came form my CJK font project where we have been
>>> constantly adding new glyphs in various CJK zones. As a result,
>>> the font started from GB2312+Big5 and then grew into GBK
>>> (same as unicode CJK unified ideographs), then expanded to
>>> CJK ext A, and now we are adding CJK ext B glyphs. If I use a
>>> single font file, the file size will be getting fairly big. This may
>>> discourage its use in some situations, such as in embedded
>>> systems (where GB2312 may be just sufficient).
>>>
>>> It seems Type0 ps font to allow composite of sub-fonts, but I am
>>> hesitate to use any of the PS fonts, as my font file will simple
>>> double and I am going to loose many features offered by
>>> truetype.
>>>
>>> I also understand I can name them with different font names,
>>> and then use fontconfig to synthesize them by defining fallback
>>> relations. Still, not as neat a solution as I am expecting, since
>>> I hope it can be OS independent.
>>>
>>> Does TrueType/OpenType support distributed files? if it does, can
>>> I do it with fontforge?
>>>
>>> thanks
>>>
>>> Qianqian
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> Let Crystal Reports handle the reporting - Free Crystal Reports 2008
>>> 30-Day
>>> trial. Simplify your report design, integration and deployment - and
>>> focus on
>>> what you do best, core application coding. Discover what's new with
>>> Crystal Reports now.  http://p.sf.net/sfu/bobj-july
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>>> Fontforge-users@...
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/fontforge-users
>>
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[Qianqian Fang-3]

Behdad Esfahbod wrote:

> On 09/08/2009 09:48 PM, mpsuzuki@... wrote:
>
>> One of the difficulty to support XML-based composite font
>> is that it cannot be supported by FreeType2 only. Thinking
>> about Unix-like systems, the combination of libxml, FreeType2,
>> fontconfig (at least) would be required. I'm quite questionable
>> about the migration cost for existing applications which
>> use raw FT_Face object as a face object.
>
> I disagree.  Applications working with FT_Face directly typically do
> not handle complex text.  While this is not an issue for CJK, it's
> more reasonable to expect apps that want to support huge glyph
> collections to also support complex text.
>
> Moreover, fontconfig has supported multiple fonts with the same family
> name and different coverage since, forever I believe.  Even better,
> those faces can be bundled in a single TTC file.  This works in Pango
> and other fontconfig based systems with font fallback support already.

Maybe I did it the wrong way, I simply sliced a single font file into two
ttfs, with each one covering a sub-zone with exactly the same font name
and family name, and put them in the same folder. After fc-cache,
"fc-list ... file"
gave me both files, but fc-match -v only listed the first one. In
OpenOffice, if
I select this split font name, only the glyphs in the first font file
are used.
If this is not expected, I can file a bug. Please let me know.

Despite this, I was successful making two fonts with different weights, a
regular one and a light one. However, their font names should be different
but family names are the same.

Qianqian

>
> behdad
>
>
>> Regards,
>> mpsuzuki
>>
>> On Tue, 08 Sep 2009 19:21:45 -0400
>> Qianqian Fang<fangq@...>  wrote:
>>
>>> hi
>>>
>>> I have been thinking about this for a while, but I could not find
>>> a good solution. I hope to get some advice from this list.
>>>
>>> Basically, what I am looking for is a way/format to package
>>> a font into multiple font files; each one covers one or a number
>>> of unicode zones but share a common font/family name;
>>> they can be used separately and together.
>>>
>>> This need came form my CJK font project where we have been
>>> constantly adding new glyphs in various CJK zones. As a result,
>>> the font started from GB2312+Big5 and then grew into GBK
>>> (same as unicode CJK unified ideographs), then expanded to
>>> CJK ext A, and now we are adding CJK ext B glyphs. If I use a
>>> single font file, the file size will be getting fairly big. This may
>>> discourage its use in some situations, such as in embedded
>>> systems (where GB2312 may be just sufficient).
>>>
>>> It seems Type0 ps font to allow composite of sub-fonts, but I am
>>> hesitate to use any of the PS fonts, as my font file will simple
>>> double and I am going to loose many features offered by
>>> truetype.
>>>
>>> I also understand I can name them with different font names,
>>> and then use fontconfig to synthesize them by defining fallback
>>> relations. Still, not as neat a solution as I am expecting, since
>>> I hope it can be OS independent.
>>>
>>> Does TrueType/OpenType support distributed files? if it does, can
>>> I do it with fontforge?
>>>
>>> thanks
>>>
>>> Qianqian
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> Let Crystal Reports handle the reporting - Free Crystal Reports 2008
>>> 30-Day
>>> trial. Simplify your report design, integration and deployment - and
>>> focus on
>>> what you do best, core application coding. Discover what's new with
>>> Crystal Reports now.  http://p.sf.net/sfu/bobj-july
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>>> Fontforge-users@...
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/fontforge-users
>>
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>>
>
>
>

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[Behdad Esfahbod-3]

On 09/09/2009 01:38 AM, suzuki toshiya wrote:

> Behdad Esfahbod wrote (2009/09/09 13:58):
>> On 09/08/2009 09:48 PM, mpsuzuki@... wrote:
>>
>>> One of the difficulty to support XML-based composite font
>>> is that it cannot be supported by FreeType2 only. Thinking
>>> about Unix-like systems, the combination of libxml, FreeType2,
>>> fontconfig (at least) would be required. I'm quite questionable
>>> about the migration cost for existing applications which
>>> use raw FT_Face object as a face object.
>>
>> I disagree. Applications working with FT_Face directly typically do
>> not handle complex text. While this is not an issue for CJK, it's more
>> reasonable to expect apps that want to support huge glyph collections
>> to also support complex text.
>
> Oh, it's good news to hear that the cost for your projects
> to migrate to XML-based composite font is not so serious for you.
> When I post previous message, I guessed Pango and cairo would
> be the most asked-but-difficult libraries to migrate.
> Your reply sounds encouraging very much!

The XML handling can happen in fontconfig, which already has to parse XML
anyway.  The only part of the MS composite FontFamily that doesn't fit into
our current model easily is custom underline/overstrike positions, etc.  But
even that can be fixed rather easily.

behdad

> Regards,
> mpsuzuki

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[Behdad Esfahbod-3]

On 09/09/2009 11:45 AM, Qianqian Fang wrote:

> Behdad Esfahbod wrote:
>> On 09/08/2009 09:48 PM, mpsuzuki@... wrote:
>>
>>> One of the difficulty to support XML-based composite font
>>> is that it cannot be supported by FreeType2 only. Thinking
>>> about Unix-like systems, the combination of libxml, FreeType2,
>>> fontconfig (at least) would be required. I'm quite questionable
>>> about the migration cost for existing applications which
>>> use raw FT_Face object as a face object.
>>
>> I disagree. Applications working with FT_Face directly typically do
>> not handle complex text. While this is not an issue for CJK, it's more
>> reasonable to expect apps that want to support huge glyph collections
>> to also support complex text.
>>
>> Moreover, fontconfig has supported multiple fonts with the same family
>> name and different coverage since, forever I believe. Even better,
>> those faces can be bundled in a single TTC file. This works in Pango
>> and other fontconfig based systems with font fallback support already.
>
> Maybe I did it the wrong way, I simply sliced a single font file into two
> ttfs, with each one covering a sub-zone with exactly the same font name
> and family name, and put them in the same folder. After fc-cache,
> "fc-list ... file" gave me both files,

That shows that fontconfig handles it correctly.

> but fc-match -v only listed the first one.

Sure, fc-match without the --sort or --all options outputs only one
font/pattern.  What did you expect it to do?


> In OpenOffice, if I select this split font name, only the glyphs in the first
 > font file are used.
> If this is not expected, I can file a bug. Please let me know.

OpenOffice doesn't use Pango.  It probably doesn't do font fallback either.
Those are the requirements I listed.

Test with gedit instead.

behdad

> Despite this, I was successful making two fonts with different weights, a
> regular one and a light one. However, their font names should be different
> but family names are the same.
>
> Qianqian
>
>>
>> behdad
>>
>>
>>> Regards,
>>> mpsuzuki
>>>
>>> On Tue, 08 Sep 2009 19:21:45 -0400
>>> Qianqian Fang<fangq@...> wrote:
>>>
>>>> hi
>>>>
>>>> I have been thinking about this for a while, but I could not find
>>>> a good solution. I hope to get some advice from this list.
>>>>
>>>> Basically, what I am looking for is a way/format to package
>>>> a font into multiple font files; each one covers one or a number
>>>> of unicode zones but share a common font/family name;
>>>> they can be used separately and together.
>>>>
>>>> This need came form my CJK font project where we have been
>>>> constantly adding new glyphs in various CJK zones. As a result,
>>>> the font started from GB2312+Big5 and then grew into GBK
>>>> (same as unicode CJK unified ideographs), then expanded to
>>>> CJK ext A, and now we are adding CJK ext B glyphs. If I use a
>>>> single font file, the file size will be getting fairly big. This may
>>>> discourage its use in some situations, such as in embedded
>>>> systems (where GB2312 may be just sufficient).
>>>>
>>>> It seems Type0 ps font to allow composite of sub-fonts, but I am
>>>> hesitate to use any of the PS fonts, as my font file will simple
>>>> double and I am going to loose many features offered by
>>>> truetype.
>>>>
>>>> I also understand I can name them with different font names,
>>>> and then use fontconfig to synthesize them by defining fallback
>>>> relations. Still, not as neat a solution as I am expecting, since
>>>> I hope it can be OS independent.
>>>>
>>>> Does TrueType/OpenType support distributed files? if it does, can
>>>> I do it with fontforge?
>>>>
>>>> thanks
>>>>
>>>> Qianqian
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Let Crystal Reports handle the reporting - Free Crystal Reports 2008
>>>> 30-Day
>>>> trial. Simplify your report design, integration and deployment - and
>>>> focus on
>>>> what you do best, core application coding. Discover what's new with
>>>> Crystal Reports now. http://p.sf.net/sfu/bobj-july
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Fontforge-users mailing list
>>>> Fontforge-users@...
>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/fontforge-users
>>>
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>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>

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[Qianqian Fang-3]

you were right, gedit/mousepad worked fine with split font files.

then my only concern now is portability. As you pointed out,
this does not work in OpenOffice, and windows also does not
like fonts with identical name tables.

Just a moment ago, I did another test, unfortunately, this
did not help either.

here is what I did:

font file 1:
font name: MyFont Basic, family name: MyFont, weight: 400
font file 2:
font name: MyFont Extra, family name: MyFont, weight: 400

again, gedit/mousepad worked fine; OpenOffice only picked up
one font; on windows, I was able to install both fonts, however,
they showed up as two separate fonts, MyFont Basic and MyFont Extra.
If I format the text with one font name, I did not see the other one
being picked up as fall-back when the character is missing form the
specified font, despite they both have the same family name.

Qianqian

Behdad Esfahbod wrote:

>> Maybe I did it the wrong way, I simply sliced a single font file into
>> two
>> ttfs, with each one covering a sub-zone with exactly the same font name
>> and family name, and put them in the same folder. After fc-cache,
>> "fc-list ... file" gave me both files,
> That shows that fontconfig handles it correctly.
>
>> but fc-match -v only listed the first one.
>
> Sure, fc-match without the --sort or --all options outputs only one
> font/pattern.  What did you expect it to do?
>
>> In OpenOffice, if I select this split font name, only the glyphs in
>> the first
> > font file are used.
>> If this is not expected, I can file a bug. Please let me know.
>
> OpenOffice doesn't use Pango.  It probably doesn't do font fallback
> either. Those are the requirements I listed.
>
> Test with gedit instead.
>
> behdad

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[Behdad Esfahbod-3]

On 09/10/2009 11:34 PM, Qianqian Fang wrote:
> you were right, gedit/mousepad worked fine with split font files.

Glad that it worked.

> then my only concern now is portability. As you pointed out,
> this does not work in OpenOffice, and windows also does not
> like fonts with identical name tables.

I understand.  I can't help with projects I don't hack on though :).

behdad

> Just a moment ago, I did another test, unfortunately, this
> did not help either.
>
> here is what I did:
>
> font file 1:
> font name: MyFont Basic, family name: MyFont, weight: 400
> font file 2:
> font name: MyFont Extra, family name: MyFont, weight: 400
>
> again, gedit/mousepad worked fine; OpenOffice only picked up
> one font; on windows, I was able to install both fonts, however,
> they showed up as two separate fonts, MyFont Basic and MyFont Extra.
> If I format the text with one font name, I did not see the other one
> being picked up as fall-back when the character is missing form the
> specified font, despite they both have the same family name.
>
> Qianqian
>
> Behdad Esfahbod wrote:
>>> Maybe I did it the wrong way, I simply sliced a single font file into
>>> two
>>> ttfs, with each one covering a sub-zone with exactly the same font name
>>> and family name, and put them in the same folder. After fc-cache,
>>> "fc-list ... file" gave me both files,
>> That shows that fontconfig handles it correctly.
>>
>>> but fc-match -v only listed the first one.
>>
>> Sure, fc-match without the --sort or --all options outputs only one
>> font/pattern. What did you expect it to do?
>>
>>> In OpenOffice, if I select this split font name, only the glyphs in
>>> the first
>> > font file are used.
>>> If this is not expected, I can file a bug. Please let me know.
>>
>> OpenOffice doesn't use Pango. It probably doesn't do font fallback
>> either. Those are the requirements I listed.
>>
>> Test with gedit instead.
>>
>> behdad
>
>
>
>

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