doc confusion

[yvette hirth]

hi,

ok, herc is DaBahm.  i've downloaded it, gen'ed it - and got past the
zlib thing when installing the tk3cd package - and it runs great.

i have some confusion on the doc, tho.

i'm running herc 3.06.  afa the tk3cd goes, i have no way of telling how
current it is, but the files contained within "MVS-turnkey-CD.iso" show
dates of 2001/Q1 (feb 21, mar 23, etc.)  then i looked in the prt subdir
of the tk3cd and it shows the output from all those jobs.

so my first question is, does the presence of that output on tk3cd mean
those jobs have been already run, or is it there to show you what to
expect from running those jobs which have yet to be run?

next, i'm trying to hook up a 3390-3 and there's no slots in the tk3cd
system genned for 3390.  while herc is quite flexible, i'm not certain
if one can stomp a 3390 on a 3350 address with "devinit/detach/attach"
et al.  i did devinit it on the herc side; doesn't do much good if the
last iogen doesn't support it.

so:  do i have to IOGEN?  if there's any way around an IOGEN - which i
haven't done since Nixon - i'd really appreciate hearing about it.  i
guess if i have to do a complete SYSGEN, that's the time, so if the
answer to #1 above is "yes, run those jobs", then i'll scrounge around
for the IOGEN config.

again, Herc is great, and i'm enjoying the trip.  and thanks, everyone,
for all of your hard work.

yvette hirth

[kerravon86]

--- In hercules-390@..., yvette hirth <yvette@...> wrote:
>
> i'm running herc 3.06.  afa the tk3cd goes, i have
> no way of telling how current it is, but the files
> contained within "MVS-turnkey-CD.iso" show
> dates of 2001/Q1 (feb 21, mar 23, etc.)  then i
> looked in the prt subdir
> of the tk3cd and it shows the output from all those jobs.

There has been the odd development or two in the
last 8 years, but nothing to write home about,
so I've stopped writing home about it.

> so my first question is, does the presence of that
> output on tk3cd mean
> those jobs have been already run, or is it there to
> show you what to
> expect from running those jobs which have yet to be run?

Everything has already been run, but there is the
odd issue or two.

> next, i'm trying to hook up a 3390-3 and there's no
> slots in the tk3cd system genned for 3390.

Not sure about that. If you search for 3390 in
your turnkey_mvs.conf I think you'll find two
existing ones.

> while herc is quite flexible, i'm not certain
> if one can stomp a 3390 on a 3350 address
> with "devinit/detach/attach"
> et al.  i did devinit it on the herc side;
> doesn't do much good if the
> last iogen doesn't support it.

Right. I don't think you'll get very far that way.

> so:  do i have to IOGEN?  

No you don't.

> if there's any way around an IOGEN - which i
> haven't done since Nixon - i'd really appreciate hearing
> about it.

If you use tk3qstart, you don't even have to
bother downloading the software yourself.

> i
> guess if i have to do a complete SYSGEN, that's the time, so if the
> answer to #1 above is "yes, run those jobs", then i'll
> scrounge around for the IOGEN config.

Scrounge around for tk3qstart instead.

> again, Herc is great, and i'm enjoying the trip.  and
> thanks, everyone, for all of your hard work.

You're into MVS rather than Hercules now, so
you should really be moving to either turnkey-mvs
(that's the official one for what you've got now),
H390-MVS (for any MVS installation on Hercules -
e.g. how to run a sysgen in general), or if you
were interested in scrounging, this:

http://mvs380.sourceforge.net

has some fancy balloon HTML if nothing else.

BFN.  Paul.

[laddiehanus-2]

--- In hercules-390@..., yvette hirth <yvette@...> wrote:
>
<SNIP>
>
> i'm running herc 3.06.  afa the tk3cd goes, i have no way of telling how
> current it is, but the files contained within "MVS-turnkey-CD.iso" show
> dates of 2001/Q1 (feb 21, mar 23, etc.)  then i looked in the prt subdir
> of the tk3cd and it shows the output from all those jobs.
>

I just looked on my copy of the TK3 CD and all the files are dated 7/31/02
Turnkey 3 was released in early August of 2002.

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/H390-MVS/message/1884

Sounds like you have an older version and they did not support 3390/3380.

A copy of the turnkey3 cd iso is located at
http://www.ibiblio.org/jmaynard/


> so my first question is, does the presence of that output on tk3cd mean
> those jobs have been already run, or is it there to show you what to
> expect from running those jobs which have yet to be run?
>

> next, i'm trying to hook up a 3390-3 and there's no slots in the tk3cd
> system genned for 3390.  while herc is quite flexible, i'm not certain
> if one can stomp a 3390 on a 3350 address with "devinit/detach/attach"
> et al.  i did devinit it on the herc side; doesn't do much good if the
> last iogen doesn't support it.
>
<SNIP>

I think that 3.8 would bring the device online but would probably corrupt the vtoc fairly quickly. Modern z/OS will not bring the device online.

Laddie Hanus

[Gerhard Postpischil]

yvette hirth wrote:
> so:  do i have to IOGEN?  if there's any way around an IOGEN - which i
> haven't done since Nixon - i'd really appreciate hearing about it.  i
> guess if i have to do a complete SYSGEN, that's the time, so if the
> answer to #1 above is "yes, run those jobs", then i'll scrounge around
> for the IOGEN config.

The official 2002 version of tk3 has two strings of 3390s at
190-19F and 290-29F. I never used or looked at 3390-3, but MVS
won't handle the larger disks due to halfword arithmetic, and
will let you destroy data without advance notice. Basically if
the device has format 7 DSCBs, it won't work.

Also if you plan on using tk3 at all, upload and install the
current versions of IND$FILE, RPF, and XMIT370, etc.

Gerhard Postpischil
Bradford, VT

[halfmeg]

> yvette hirth wrote:

><snip>

> i'm running herc 3.06.  afa the tk3cd goes, i have no way of telling
> how  current it is,

There is a readme.html in the root of the CD.  If it starts out with, "Don't Panic
If everything else fails, read the documentation"

then you have a TK2 CD, not TK3.

> but the files contained within "MVS-turnkey-CD.iso" show dates of
> 2001/Q1 (feb 21, mar 23, etc.) then i looked in the prt subdir of
> the tk3cd and it shows the output from all those jobs.

These dates indicate a TK2 CD also.
 
> so my first question is, does the presence of that output on tk3cd
> mean those jobs have been already run, or is it there to show you
> what to expect from running those jobs which have yet to be run?

Two paths for both turnkeys, either install from distribution tape and other items or load the prebuilt system.  The output you mention is from the run of the prebuilt system.

> next, i'm trying to hook up a 3390-3 and there's no slots in the
> tk3cd system genned for 3390.  while herc is quite flexible, i'm not
> certain if one can stomp a 3390 on a 3350 address with
> "devinit/detach/attach" et al.  i did devinit it on the herc side;
> doesn't do much good if the last iogen doesn't support it.

Contrary to convential wisdom, you can, or at least one time you could, attach a DASD on a differently genned device address.  I wouldn't try to write to it and reading from it may fail in subtle ways such as lopping off higher than genned track & cylinder addresses without giving an indication that anything is wrong.

> so:  do i have to IOGEN?  if there's any way around an IOGEN - which
> i haven't done since Nixon - i'd really appreciate hearing about it.
> i guess if i have to do a complete SYSGEN, that's the time, so if
> the  answer to #1 above is "yes, run those jobs", then i'll scrounge
> around for the IOGEN config.

The largest DASD TK2 supported was 3350.  The mods for 3375/3380/3390 support from Jim Morrison didn't enter the picture until TK3.  So even if you tried to gen later than 3350 DASD on TK2 you would only get errors in the Gen.

> again, Herc is great, and i'm enjoying the trip.  and thanks,
> everyone, for all of your hard work.

Even with TK3 the 3390 support is limited to model 1, 1113 cylinders.  

There is a non-standard size of 2184 cylinders, but a model 2, 2226 cylinders, is just out of reach due to the half word addressing used in 3.8j.

An update to TK3 has been simmering on and off now for a few months as I get time to work on it.  Do you want to be a end user BETA tester ?

Phil

[halfmeg]

> kerravon86 wrote:

> There has been the odd development or two in the
> last 8 years, but nothing to write home about,
> so I've stopped writing home about it.

><snipped advertisment>

So much nothing that you based your environment on the update released in 2006.

Phil

[somitcw-2]

--- In hercules-390@...,
 Gerhard Postpischil <gerhard@...> wrote:

> yvette hirth wrote:
>> so:  do i have to IOGEN?  if there's any way around
>>an IOGEN - which i haven't done since Nixon - i'd
>>really appreciate hearing about it.  i guess if i
>>have to do a complete SYSGEN, that's the time, so if
>>the answer to #1 above is "yes, run those jobs", then
>>i'll scrounge around for the IOGEN config.
> The official 2002 version of tk3 has two strings of 3390s
>at 190-19F and 290-29F. I never used or looked at 3390-3,
>but MVS won't handle the larger disks due to halfword
>arithmetic, and will let you destroy data without advance
>notice. Basically if the device has format 7 DSCBs, it
>won't work.
> Also if you plan on using tk3 at all, upload and install
>the current versions of IND$FILE, RPF, and XMIT370, etc.
> Gerhard Postpischil
> Bradford, VT

   A more technical description is TK3 supports disks up
to 32767 ( 32760 ) tracks.  After that, the free-space
calculation goes negative ( bug is probably in the second
module of the LSPACE SVC ).  3390-1 and 3390-2184 work.
3390-2 and 3390-3 are corrupted as soon as a data set is
allocated in or scratched from the VTOC.  3390-9, 3390-27,
and 3390-54 require a Format 7 DSCB or Format 7 DSCB with
Indexed VTOC to support free-space.  TK3 has neither.

   If you want to attach a 3390-3 to TK3, I suggest trying:

1. Add the disk volser to SYS1.PARMLIB(VATLST00) as PRIVATE.
2. Update your Hercules configuration file to include.
3. IPL
4. Copy, do not move, the data off to a 3390-2184 or 3390-1
as soon as you can.

   Warning.  TK3 disk volumes were built with strange VTOCs.
Some TK3 disks have track size, DSCBs per track, and PDS
directory blocks per track incorrect in the VTOC.  Makes for
some strange errors.

   Warning #2.  Hercules has a special feature that if you
IPL TK3 before the previous instance has been quit, Hercules
will go to great pains to trash any "shared" disks.  TK3 did
not have any protection in STARTMVS.bat so you should add.

   As mentioned by others, TK3 has an old RPF ( ISPF/PDF
replacement ) and has an old IND$FILE.  You should update
both.   Some other programs that could be added or updated
include RECV370 and REVIEW.  A few newer USERMODs are also
available.

For IND$FILE, either:
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/H390-MVS/files/ind$file.zip
or
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/turnkey-mvs/files/ind$file.zip

Possibly the most current RPF:
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/turnkey-mvs/files/rpf153.zip
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/turnkey-mvs/files/rpfinst.txt
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/turnkey-mvs/files/rpfuguid.pdf

   Many other TK3 issues.  I haven't tried it but the
previously mentioned tk3qstart may be best install method?
Most current release may be:

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-os380/\
files/TK3qstart-0_00g.zip

   Hercules 3.06 is also long on tooth.  Newer code is at:

http://www.ivansoftware.com/snapshots/snapshots/

What I use works well but you may want newer.  Some
had Microsoft issues.  I'm running:

http://www.ivansoftware.com/snapshots/snapshots/\
W32/W32-hercules-SVN-5429.zip

[yvette hirth]

halfmeg wrote:

> An update to TK3 has been simmering on and off now for a few months as I get time to work on it.  Do you want to be a end user BETA tester ?

sure!  in fact, once i get a 3.8j that has all the latest stuff on it, i
am volunteering to fix the part of the "Installation Manual" that states:

"A section on Linux will be added in the future".

see, i do know how to RTFM.

so i'm happy to write the Linux User's Guide Section.  lmk how you want
it done; i'm good in .doc format, but stinko in LaTeX / man format.

also, if anyone who has ever installed the Linux variant would like to
send me whatever install/config/gen/notes they have, i'll add those
(with appropriate credit, if requested).  yvette at dbtgroup daht kahm.

Yvette

[ScottC-3]

--- In hercules-390@..., "halfmeg" <opplr@...> wrote:
>
> An update to TK3 has been simmering on and off now for a few months as
I get time to work on it. Do you want to be a end
> user BETA tester ?

Hey Phil, if you take me off of moderated status on turnkey-mvs, then
I'll be happy to volunteer to be a beta tester as well.

And, BTW, I am the author of
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-os380/files/TK3qstart-0_00g.\
zip
<http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-os380/files/TK3qstart-0_00g\
.zip>  (pre-configured install of TK3 with latest non-snapshot Herc 3.06
and wc3270) for Windows users only.

Scott



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[halfmeg]

> yvette hirth <yvette@...> wrote:

> > halfmeg wrote:

> > An update to TK3 has been simmering on and off now for a few
> > months as I get time to work on it.  Do you want to be a end user
> > BETA tester ?
 
> sure!  in fact, once i get a 3.8j that has all the latest stuff on
> it, i am volunteering to fix the part of the "Installation Manual"
> that states:
 
> "A section on Linux will be added in the future".
 
> see, i do know how to RTFM.
 
> so i'm happy to write the Linux User's Guide Section.  lmk how you
> want it done; i'm good in .doc format, but stinko in LaTeX / man
> format.

There may not be a whole lot to an "Installation Manual" as the install for the BETA should be an unzip and go.

Volker's TK3 web site will still be applicable for the most part as to what is available in the update.  There are some changes and additions however.

> also, if anyone who has ever installed the Linux variant would like
> to send me whatever install/config/gen/notes they have, i'll add
> those (with appropriate credit, if requested).  yvette at dbtgroup
> daht kahm.

TK3 uses bash scripts to install.  The windows bat files are mainly just calling the same named bash script.

Phil

[halfmeg]

> ScottC wrote:

> Hey Phil, if you take me off of moderated status on turnkey-mvs,
> then I'll be happy to volunteer to be a beta tester as well.
 
> And, BTW, I am the author of TK3qstart-0_00g.zip (pre-configured
> install of TK3 with latest non-snapshot Herc 3.06 and wc3270) for
> Windows users only.

If you have something you wish to contribute to the TK3 forum, you should upload or post it to that forum.

Phil

[ScottC-3]

--- In hercules-390@..., "halfmeg" <opplr@...> wrote:
>
> If you have something you wish to contribute to the TK3 forum, you
should upload or post it to that forum.
>
> Phil
>

Phil,

In the past months I have attempted to post responses to user requests
for help in the turnkey-mvs forum. You chose not to let any of them
post.

To put me on moderated status in the first place (for disingenuous
reasons) and then choosing not to allow any of my response postings to
user requests for assistance to post, is unacceptable. To put somitcw on
moderated status for disagreeing with you for putting me on moderated
status is nothing short of censorship.

Private emails to you regarding this situation go unanswered. I plan to
cross-post this note in the hercules-390 forum, if you choose not to
allow it to post in the turnkey-mvs forum.

Therefore, until you return full posting rights and respect to me and
somitcw as are afforded all other users, I have nothing to contribute to
the turnkey-mvs forum.



BTW, where is the TK3 forum?  Are you the (censorship) moderator of that
forum as well?



Scott



Reference threads:

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/turnkey-mvs/message/5906
<http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/turnkey-mvs/message/5906>

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/turnkey-mvs/message/5915
<http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/turnkey-mvs/message/5915>





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]