how to reprogram diskonchip modules

[Ralph Green]

Howdy,
  I was reading some older posts in this mailing list and I found
references to people using diskonchip modules.  I have a few thin client
machines I would like to setup.  This is all stuff I am doing for free
for myself and friends.  This is not a business.  The Neoware and HP
machines have these diskonchip modules in sizes from 64 meg to 256 meg.
That should be plenty of room for a leaf setup to act as an accesspoint
or firewall.  My problem is that I don't see how to program them.  They
have 44 pin female headers.  I find adapters to let me plug 2.5 inch
drives into a desktop PC and those expect male headers.
  On the sourceforge page for this project, it suggests looking in the
FAQ and logging onto irc.  But, it also says the FAQ page is disabled
for this project and the irc is not active.  So, if there is another
place I should be asking this or looking it up, please just tell me
that.
Good day,
Ralph Green, Jr



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[Erich Titl]

Hi Ralph

Ralph Green schrieb:

> Howdy,
>   I was reading some older posts in this mailing list and I found
> references to people using diskonchip modules.  I have a few thin client
> machines I would like to setup.  This is all stuff I am doing for free
> for myself and friends.  This is not a business.  The Neoware and HP
> machines have these diskonchip modules in sizes from 64 meg to 256 meg.
> That should be plenty of room for a leaf setup to act as an accesspoint
> or firewall.  My problem is that I don't see how to program them.  They
> have 44 pin female headers.  I find adapters to let me plug 2.5 inch
> drives into a desktop PC and those expect male headers.
>   On the sourceforge page for this project, it suggests looking in the
> FAQ and logging onto irc.  But, it also says the FAQ page is disabled
> for this project and the irc is not active.  So, if there is another
> place I should be asking this or looking it up, please just tell me
> that.

This is less of a LEAF than a hardware issue. If your DOMs behave like
an ordinary IDE disk then the question is how to connect them to a
standard system to write the software to them. I recall having had the
same issue once. I must admit, I just abandoned that DOM, seeing that
ordinary DOM's did cost a fraction of the price of the adapter. Unless
you really want to go that way, I would suggest to find a cheap IDE to
CF adapter. Compact Flash of small sizes can be found in heaps. Are you
sure you have a 2.5 inch interface and not a 1.8 inch which has 50 pins
and is typically female.

cheers

Erich


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[Erich Titl]

Ralph

Ralph Green schrieb:
> Howdy,

Ah, BTW I completely overlooked the most sensible solution. If your
System has an ordinary IDE connector you might as well just connect a CD
temporarily to that system, boot from it and load your DOM on the target
system.

cheers

Erich


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[Ralph Green]

Howdy Erich,

On Sun, 2009-05-17 at 17:30 +0200, Erich Titl wrote:

> Hi Ralph
>
> Ralph Green schrieb:
> > Howdy,
> >   I was reading some older posts in this mailing list and I found
> > references to people using diskonchip modules.  I have a few thin client
> > machines I would like to setup.  This is all stuff I am doing for free
> > for myself and friends.  This is not a business.  The Neoware and HP
> > machines have these diskonchip modules in sizes from 64 meg to 256 meg.
> > That should be plenty of room for a leaf setup to act as an accesspoint
> > or firewall.  My problem is that I don't see how to program them.  They
> > have 44 pin female headers.  I find adapters to let me plug 2.5 inch
> > drives into a desktop PC and those expect male headers.
> >   On the sourceforge page for this project, it suggests looking in the
> > FAQ and logging onto irc.  But, it also says the FAQ page is disabled
> > for this project and the irc is not active.  So, if there is another
> > place I should be asking this or looking it up, please just tell me
> > that.
>
> This is less of a LEAF than a hardware issue. If your DOMs behave like
> an ordinary IDE disk then the question is how to connect them to a
> standard system to write the software to them. I recall having had the
> same issue once. I must admit, I just abandoned that DOM, seeing that
> ordinary DOM's did cost a fraction of the price of the adapter. Unless
> you really want to go that way, I would suggest to find a cheap IDE to
> CF adapter. Compact Flash of small sizes can be found in heaps. Are you
> sure you have a 2.5 inch interface and not a 1.8 inch which has 50 pins
> and is typically female.
>
> cheers
>
> Erich
>

 Both the HP and the Neoware boxes are similar in their ide
configuration.  The motherboards have only one ide connector.  It is a
44 pin connector with male pins on the motherboard.  I have the removed
diskonmodule devices right in front of me and they are definitely 44
pins.  There is no proper place inside to mount a hard drive, so getting
the systems to boot off the diskonmodules will work best.  I can plug a
laptop drive onto the connector with the case apart and boot them.  But,
if I boot that way, I can't have the diskonmodule plugged in to reflash
it.  I put a CF card to laptop ide adapter in one of these and it does
work.  But, since there is no proper place to mount the drive, it is
just a big box laying inside the PC.  I put it into the box, because I
did not want two electrical things touching each other, but I am not
sure this is along term safe idea either.
 I do see that my question is a hardware issue, and not directly a LEAF
issue.  But, I had been reading about LEAF, since it is a system I want
to try for these devices and I ran across some old messages on the
mailing list talking about these modules.  It seems like a related issue
to me, since it is about how I can use LEAF.  I will cease asking about
it, if the consensus here is that I should.
Thank you for your time,
Ralph



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[KP Kirchdoerfer-2]

Am Sonntag, 17. Mai 2009 12:17:40 schrieb Ralph Green:
> Howdy,
>   I was reading some older posts in this mailing list and I found
> references to people using diskonchip modules.  I have a few thin client
> machines I would like to setup.  

As thin clients they may support pxeboot

See
http://leaf.sourceforge.net/doc/buci-ide3.html

for more information.

hth
kp

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[Erich Titl]

Ralph

Ralph Green schrieb:

> Howdy Erich,
>
>>
>  Both the HP and the Neoware boxes are similar in their ide
> configuration.  The motherboards have only one ide connector.  It is a
> 44 pin connector with male pins on the motherboard.  I have the removed
> diskonmodule devices right in front of me and they are definitely 44
> pins.  There is no proper place inside to mount a hard drive, so getting
> the systems to boot off the diskonmodules will work best.  I can plug a
> laptop drive onto the connector with the case apart and boot them.  But,
> if I boot that way, I can't have the diskonmodule plugged in to reflash
> it.  I put a CF card to laptop ide adapter in one of these and it does
> work.  But, since there is no proper place to mount the drive, it is
> just a big box laying inside the PC.  I put it into the box, because I
> did not want two electrical things touching each other, but I am not
> sure this is along term safe idea either.
>  I do see that my question is a hardware issue, and not directly a LEAF
> issue.  But, I had been reading about LEAF, since it is a system I want
> to try for these devices and I ran across some old messages on the
> mailing list talking about these modules.  It seems like a related issue
> to me, since it is about how I can use LEAF.  I will cease asking about
> it, if the consensus here is that I should

Seeing that the Neoware box allows to load a LInux System you should be
able to use this one to flash LEAF to your box, if PXE, like KP
suggested, does not work. Your experiment with the 2.5 inch drive
suggests that the pin layout is standard. So all you need is to get one
ot these 2.5 to 3.5 adapters, stick pins into all the holes and use it
as an adapter for your device. This is a real horrible hardware hack but
if everything else fails it might do the job for you. HP is not very
informative on parts and manuals for this product.

cheers

Erich


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[Ralph Green]

Howdy,
  No, that won't work at all.  Picture the two female connectors with
you looking at both of them.  The pins on them are numbered as follows:

  1 3 5 7 ... 41 43
  2 4 6 8 ... 42 44

 Now, rotate one of them around 180 degrees to plug them into each other
with a set of the male pin headers.  You would be connecting pin 1 on
the first to pin 43 on the second, and pin 2 on the first to pin 44 on
the second.  The signals would all be in the wrong places.  For example,
you would be connecting the data 7 pin on the first to the power supply
for the logic board on the second.
Points for trying, though.
Have a good day,
Ralph


On Sun, 2009-05-17 at 13:56 -0400, Matt Westveld wrote:

> Something like this with a 2.5" adaptor to plug it into a normal pc?
> http://notebookcables.stores.yahoo.net/44pinmalidc2.html
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ralph Green [mailto:sfreader@...]
> Sent: Sunday, May 17, 2009 1:32 PM
> To: Erich Titl
> Cc: leaf-user@...
> Subject: Re: [leaf-user] how to reprogram diskonchip modules
>
> Howdy Erich,
>
> On Sun, 2009-05-17 at 17:30 +0200, Erich Titl wrote:
> or firewall.  My problem is that I don't see how to program them.  They
> > > have 44 pin female headers.  I find adapters to let me plug 2.5 inch
> > > drives into a desktop PC and those expect male headers.
> > >

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[Ralph Green]

Howdy,
  They may well support pxeboot.  But, it won't help.  The goal is to
turn these into firewalls and access points.  The devices need to be
able to boot on their own.  For example, I'll take one to a meeting to
serve as an impromptu access point.  I won't have a configured tftp
server handy.  I want one that has more features and is more secure than
inexpensive commercial offerings.  The device needs to boot Linux and
the best place to put that would be in a diskonmodule device.
 These thin clients don't have any place for a CD drive or IDE hard
drive.  Mine are not unusual.  That is common for thin clients.
Thank you for the suggestion, though.
Ralph

On Sun, 2009-05-17 at 20:07 +0200, KP Kirchdoerfer wrote:

> Am Sonntag, 17. Mai 2009 12:17:40 schrieb Ralph Green:
> > Howdy,
> >   I was reading some older posts in this mailing list and I found
> > references to people using diskonchip modules.  I have a few thin client
> > machines I would like to setup.  
>
> As thin clients they may support pxeboot
>
> See
> http://leaf.sourceforge.net/doc/buci-ide3.html
>
> for more information.
>
> hth
> kp
>
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[Ralph Green]

On Sun, 2009-05-17 at 23:23 +0200, Erich Titl wrote:
> Seeing that the Neoware box allows to load a LInux System you should be
> able to use this one to flash LEAF to your box, if PXE, like KP
> suggested, does not work. Your experiment with the 2.5 inch drive
> suggests that the pin layout is standard. So all you need is to get one
> ot these 2.5 to 3.5 adapters, stick pins into all the holes and use it
> as an adapter for your device. This is a real horrible hardware hack but
> if everything else fails it might do the job for you. HP is not very
> informative on parts and manuals for this product.
>
Howdy,
  That won't work, because the pins won't be in the right place, for the
same reason as what I described to Matt Westveld.  There is a hacky way
to get there, but it is more complicated.  I could take a laptop IDE
cable, and find 2 crimp on male headers for that same pitch ribbon
cable.  Crimp them on one above the other, very close.  If you put them
at the right spacing, you can use the middle two rows(one from each
connector) to plug the diskonmodule into.  I have not found the crimp on
headers yet, and I may try this method.  But, I know that people
programmed these devices for use somehow.  I expected there is some name
for the cable I am looking for and hoped someone here would know it.
  And, I can't reflash these with the Neoware or HP boxes at all.  If I
have the diskonmodule plugged in, I can't boot Linux.  It will, at
present only boot to the terminal server software built in.  If I remove
the diskonmodule device, the bios lets me boot to a laptop drive I have
plugged into the slot vacated by the diskonmodule.  So, I'll program the
diskonmodule on another system.
Thank you, though
Ralph



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[Stefaan Van Dooren]

Can't you just plugin an usb CD-rom and boot from there, then program
the DOC. If used several Thin-Clients as leaf-boxes, most of then could
boot from USB (if you find a way to enter the BIOS)

Regards,

Stefaan

-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: Ralph Green [mailto:sfreader@...]
Verzonden: zondag 17 mei 2009 12:18
Aan: leaf-user@...
Onderwerp: [leaf-user] how to reprogram diskonchip modules

Howdy,
  I was reading some older posts in this mailing list and I found
references to people using diskonchip modules.  I have a few thin client
machines I would like to setup.  This is all stuff I am doing for free
for myself and friends.  This is not a business.  The Neoware and HP
machines have these diskonchip modules in sizes from 64 meg to 256 meg.
That should be plenty of room for a leaf setup to act as an accesspoint
or firewall.  My problem is that I don't see how to program them.  They
have 44 pin female headers.  I find adapters to let me plug 2.5 inch
drives into a desktop PC and those expect male headers.
  On the sourceforge page for this project, it suggests looking in the
FAQ and logging onto irc.  But, it also says the FAQ page is disabled
for this project and the irc is not active.  So, if there is another
place I should be asking this or looking it up, please just tell me
that.
Good day,
Ralph Green, Jr



------------------------------------------------------------------------
------
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[Gordon Bos]

 From what I read it should be possible to flash the chip with your own
image *inside* the neoware box itself. There's a discussion on this topic on
http://forums13.itrc.hp.com/service/forums/bizsupport/questionanswer.do?threadId=1273155

One of the contributors to this discussion has posted a link to a method
that involves PXE booting the device into Linux and then run a flash
routine. The download includes a TFTP server for Windows and the images
for XP embedded. It shouldn't be too hard to hack into this method and
do other stuff, such as creating a backup of the current image.

Gordon

Ralph Green wrote:

> Howdy,
>   They may well support pxeboot.  But, it won't help.  The goal is to
> turn these into firewalls and access points.  The devices need to be
> able to boot on their own.  For example, I'll take one to a meeting to
> serve as an impromptu access point.  I won't have a configured tftp
> server handy.  I want one that has more features and is more secure than
> inexpensive commercial offerings.  The device needs to boot Linux and
> the best place to put that would be in a diskonmodule device.
>  These thin clients don't have any place for a CD drive or IDE hard
> drive.  Mine are not unusual.  That is common for thin clients.
> Thank you for the suggestion, though.
> Ralph
>
> On Sun, 2009-05-17 at 20:07 +0200, KP Kirchdoerfer wrote:
>> Am Sonntag, 17. Mai 2009 12:17:40 schrieb Ralph Green:
>>> Howdy,
>>>   I was reading some older posts in this mailing list and I found
>>> references to people using diskonchip modules.  I have a few thin client
>>> machines I would like to setup.  
>> As thin clients they may support pxeboot
>>
>> See
>> http://leaf.sourceforge.net/doc/buci-ide3.html
>>
>> for more information.
>>
>> hth
>> kp
>>

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[Ralph Green]

Howdy,
  That is a great thread for what I am trying.  I see at least two leads
in there.  I'll go away and try that before I ask again.  Their
instructions assume you have a Windows box available, which I don't.
But, it all looks like stuff I can adapt.
  One immediate help in that thread was to find the right key to press
to get into the BIOS.  I had not found that on my own.  I tried that
key(the del key), but I must not have pressed it at the right time.  I
now have it trying to PXE boot with the module in place.  So, I'll go
setup a linux image in a tftp server and go from there.
Thank you,
Ralph

On Mon, 2009-05-18 at 11:29 +0200, Gordon Bos wrote:
> From what I read it should be possible to flash the chip with your own
> image *inside* the neoware box itself. There's a discussion on this topic on
> http://forums13.itrc.hp.com/service/forums/bizsupport/questionanswer.do?threadId=1273155
>
> One of the contributors to this discussion has posted a link to a method
> that involves PXE booting the device into Linux and then run a flash
> routine. The download includes a TFTP server for Windows and the images
> for XP embedded. It shouldn't be too hard to hack into this method and
> do other stuff, such as creating a backup of the current image.



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[Gordon Bos]

There's mentioning that for some boxes you need to press Shift-F10

I'd guess you won't need a Windows box to perform the trick either. They
just use Windows to start a TFTP server. You can do the same with any
Linux server running dhcpd and tftp.

Gordon


Ralph Green wrote:

> Howdy,
>   That is a great thread for what I am trying.  I see at least two leads
> in there.  I'll go away and try that before I ask again.  Their
> instructions assume you have a Windows box available, which I don't.
> But, it all looks like stuff I can adapt.
>   One immediate help in that thread was to find the right key to press
> to get into the BIOS.  I had not found that on my own.  I tried that
> key(the del key), but I must not have pressed it at the right time.  I
> now have it trying to PXE boot with the module in place.  So, I'll go
> setup a linux image in a tftp server and go from there.
> Thank you,
> Ralph
>
> On Mon, 2009-05-18 at 11:29 +0200, Gordon Bos wrote:
>> From what I read it should be possible to flash the chip with your own
>> image *inside* the neoware box itself. There's a discussion on this topic on
>> http://forums13.itrc.hp.com/service/forums/bizsupport/questionanswer.do?threadId=1273155
>>
>> One of the contributors to this discussion has posted a link to a method
>> that involves PXE booting the device into Linux and then run a flash
>> routine. The download includes a TFTP server for Windows and the images
>> for XP embedded. It shouldn't be too hard to hack into this method and
>> do other stuff, such as creating a backup of the current image.
>
>

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[Erich Titl]

Ralph Green schrieb:
> Howdy,
>   They may well support pxeboot.  But, it won't help.  The goal is to
> turn these into firewalls and access points.  
Sure, you can boot LEAF using PXE and then use that environment to flash
your DOM for a local boot. This is often used on devices where it is
difficult to remove the DOM.
> The devices need to be
> able to boot on their own.  For example, I'll take one to a meeting to
> serve as an impromptu access point.  I won't have a configured tftp
> server handy.  I want one that has more features and is more secure than
> inexpensive commercial offerings.  The device needs to boot Linux and
> the best place to put that would be in a diskonmodule device.
>  
cheers

Erich


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