hugin 09.02 - feedback

[Erik Krause]

Hello,

thanks to the new windows binary I finally could test a recent hugin. So
far it runs without crashes (which was a problem in older versions). The
Fast Preview is very nice. However, I wonder why the original images are
loaded each time the color settings change and "Photometrics" is on.
This counteracts the idea of a fast preview a bit. The standard preview
updates much faster on this.

I used a pretty simple panorama - 360° one row shot 12° down in portrait
orientation from a nikon E5200. The only difficulties where, that this
camera doesn't support fixed exposure and it doesn't have an orientation
sensor. The subject was the room of my children and what they built from
lego and brio.

I loaded 17 images in Assistant tab, autopano-sift worked 536 seconds to
find control points. After alignment the images where a chaos scattered
all over the canvas. Apparently autopano-sift found control points on
non-overlapping images: Lots of same looking lego blocks.

After removing the wrong points manually the panorama optimized
relatively good albeit in a wave. The CP table would be better if I
could restrict the displayed points to one image. However, the visual
display in the droplist of the Control Points tab is a good way to spot
wrong points, too.

The behaviour of the "Straighten" button is interesting. It turns the
panorama in a vertical one. Apparently the algorithm doesn't know about
the correct orientation and starts with the first image horizontal. This
is even the case if enough vertical control points constrain the
orientation of the panorama. I'd consider this a bug.

"Numerical Transform" should be a non-modal persistent dialog. This way
it would be possible to enter a small value f.e. for Yaw and apply it
repeatedly until the desired view is in place.

Hugin deals very good with the above mentioned exposure differences once
exposure is unlinked on "Camera and Lens" tab. Vignetting, slight white
balance differences and further exposure differences where optimized
very good.

best regards
--
Erik Krause
http://www.erik-krause.de

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[Yuval Levy-6]

Thanks for the feedback, Erik.

Erik Krause wrote:
> Apparently autopano-sift found control points on
> non-overlapping images: Lots of same looking lego blocks.

how do other tools available to you deal with the same set of images?


> After removing the wrong points manually the panorama optimized
> relatively good

keep this as a test case for 2009.4.0, please. Thomas has contributed
cpclean which is just the ideal function to deal with this issue.


> "Numerical Transform" should be a non-modal persistent dialog. This way
> it would be possible to enter a small value f.e. for Yaw and apply it
> repeatedly until the desired view is in place.

I have fixed this in 2009.4.0.

Yuv

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[Bruno Postle]

On Sat 07-Nov-2009 at 22:09 +0100, Erik Krause wrote:
>
>thanks to the new windows binary I finally could test a recent hugin. So
>far it runs without crashes (which was a problem in older versions). The
>Fast Preview is very nice. However, I wonder why the original images are
>loaded each time the color settings change and "Photometrics" is on.
>This counteracts the idea of a fast preview a bit. The standard preview
>updates much faster on this.

The default image cache size is very small (75 MB I think), 17 five
megapixel photos will result in churn with images being reloaded.

Hmm the wiki says it is 200MB.  Either value is too low for any
modern system, this number should be revisited.

>The behaviour of the "Straighten" button is interesting. It turns the
>panorama in a vertical one. Apparently the algorithm doesn't know about
>the correct orientation and starts with the first image horizontal. This
>is even the case if enough vertical control points constrain the
>orientation of the panorama. I'd consider this a bug.

The straighten function doesn't use control points, which is why the
vertical points were ignored - It should probably do something
different (or even nothing at all) when there are vertical or
horizontal control points.

Straighten assumes the photo orientation is 'correct', Hugin doesn't
use any orientation EXIF info, perhaps this would be a good use for
it.

>Hugin deals very good with the above mentioned exposure differences once
>exposure is unlinked on "Camera and Lens" tab. Vignetting, slight white
>balance differences and further exposure differences where optimized
>very good.

This shouldn't happen, the EV Exposure values are not linked by
default here, can you reproduce this?

--
Bruno

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[Yuval Levy-6]

Bruno Postle wrote:
> The default image cache size is very small (75 MB I think), 17 five
> megapixel photos will result in churn with images being reloaded.
>
> Hmm the wiki says it is 200MB.  Either value is too low for any
> modern system, this number should be revisited.

it seems that the default value is a fixed constant in a header file.
Easy to change, but to which value? IIRC there are occasional reports of
crashes because of an excessively high value. Is there a C / C++
function to determine how much memory is available? how about making it
a % of this? how would this account for swap memory on Linux?


> The straighten function doesn't use control points, which is why the
> vertical points were ignored - It should probably do something
> different (or even nothing at all) when there are vertical or
> horizontal control points.

does anybody find that function useful? I never use it.

Yuv

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[Kornel Benko]

Am Sonntag 08 November 2009 schrieb Yuval Levy:

> Bruno Postle wrote:
> > The default image cache size is very small (75 MB I think), 17 five
> > megapixel photos will result in churn with images being reloaded.
> >
> > Hmm the wiki says it is 200MB.  Either value is too low for any
> > modern system, this number should be revisited.
>
> it seems that the default value is a fixed constant in a header file.
> Easy to change, but to which value? IIRC there are occasional reports of
> crashes because of an excessively high value. Is there a C / C++
> function to determine how much memory is available?
> how about making it
> a % of this? how would this account for swap memory on Linux?

Don't know, if this would help. I had to set this limit 200MB.
But making a small program here shows me, that this limit has
nothing to do with real available memory.
It was able to allocate up to 2GB of memory in _one_ chunk.

> > The straighten function doesn't use control points, which is why the
> > vertical points were ignored - It should probably do something
> > different (or even nothing at all) when there are vertical or
> > horizontal control points.
>
> does anybody find that function useful? I never use it.

I use it. It is very handy for a first visual improvement after optimizing, when there are no
vertical or horizontal control points.

> Yuv

        Kornel
--
Kornel Benko
Kornel.Benko@...

[Erik Krause]

Bruno Postle wrote:

> The default image cache size is very small (75 MB I think), 17 five
> megapixel photos will result in churn with images being reloaded.

Wouldn't it be better to have a disk cache if memory cache is full?
Loading the original images can take very long if there are many and
they are large. Disk cache could store smaller versions and in a format
that is easier to read.

best regards
--
Erik Krause
http://www.erik-krause.de

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[Erik Krause]

Bruno Postle wrote:

> The straighten function doesn't use control points, which is why the
> vertical points were ignored - It should probably do something
> different (or even nothing at all) when there are vertical or
> horizontal control points.

In my opinion straighten should optimize pitch such that the values are
more or less equal - at least for horizontal projections like
cylindrical or equirect. Don't know how to achieve this...

> Straighten assumes the photo orientation is 'correct', Hugin doesn't
> use any orientation EXIF info, perhaps this would be a good use for
> it.

The images don't have orientation info and there apparently is no
possibility to initially rotate them correctly.

best regards
--
Erik Krause
http://www.erik-krause.de

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[Erik Krause]

Yuval Levy wrote:

> > Apparently autopano-sift found control points on
> > non-overlapping images: Lots of same looking lego blocks.
>
> how do other tools available to you deal with the same set of images?

Panomatic runs about the same time as autopano-sift and finds about the
same amount of wrong points. Jenny Autopano 1.03 works about 2 minutes
and finds no wrong points. hugin however doesn't choose the right
orientation, the anchor image needs to be rotated manually by 90°. After
that hugin optimizes an almost perfect panorama (very slightly curved up
compared to PTGui) - may be due to CPs clustered in the middle of the
overlap (possibly other autopano parameters might change this).

PTGui "Align images" on assistant tab takes roughly 2 minutes to align
the images perfectly - correct orientation, straightened panorama
pitched down the correct amount, no control points between non-adjacent
images.

best regards
--
Erik Krause
http://www.erik-krause.de

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[Erik Krause]

Erik Krause wrote:

> After that hugin optimizes an almost perfect panorama (very slightly
> curved up compared to PTGui) - may be due to CPs clustered in the
> middle of the overlap (possibly other autopano parameters might
> change this).

This can be easily corrected with some vertical control points...

Setting CPs manually still sucks but this is the case since version 0.1
or whatever I tried first years ago. If I show the same image in both
panes hugin correctly assumes that I want to add a vertical CP.

I click the point in the left pane and the other end of the vertical
line in the right one. If auto fine tune is on hugin takes ages until
the CP is added and it isn't in the place I choose.

If auto fine tune is off the right pane magnifies as soon as I click but
there is no point. If I click the point it zooms out again with the
point set. The magnifying glass shows only if I move the mouse out of
the pane - I have to click the point again in order to correct it.

Mouse movement when dragging a point is far too rough (in display
pixels) then, for a fine correction I have to zoom in manually. The
local magnifier is too small and magnifies too much. I didn't find
anything in the preferences to change this.

To correct a point I must click on the cross. Clicking the flag creates
a new point. If zoomed in and the point is not in the middle of the pane
it scrolls to the middle as soon as I click the point. Sometimes the
point stays with the mouse pointer and sometimes it moves away with the
image.

The CP list below doesn't react to the delete key. You need to press the
Delete with the mouse. The main CP table (F3) however does.

best regards
--
Erik Krause
http://www.erik-krause.de

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[Bruno Postle]

On Sat 07-Nov-2009 at 20:44 -0500, Yuval Levy wrote:
>Bruno Postle wrote:
>> The default image cache size is very small (75 MB I think), 17 five
>> megapixel photos will result in churn with images being reloaded.

>it seems that the default value is a fixed constant in a header file.
>Easy to change, but to which value? IIRC there are occasional reports of
>crashes because of an excessively high value.

I'm not sure I have ever seen this.

Other software (e.g. firefox) manage image caches without needing
the user to size it, we should get rid of this option and just do
the right thing.

>> The straighten function doesn't use control points, which is why the
>> vertical points were ignored - It should probably do something
>> different (or even nothing at all) when there are vertical or
>> horizontal control points.
>
>does anybody find that function useful? I never use it.

When it works it is like magic.

It is broken with panoramas without much yaw variation (e.g. single
stacks and vertical panoramas), this should be fixed.

It should change behaviour when there are horizontal/vertical
control points in the project, and switch to a simple 'positions'
optimisation.

--
Bruno

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[Bruno Postle]

On Sun 08-Nov-2009 at 12:24 +0100, Erik Krause wrote:
>
>In my opinion straighten should optimize pitch such that the values are
>more or less equal - at least for horizontal projections like
>cylindrical or equirect. Don't know how to achieve this...

That what it does, it minimises the variation of roll and pitch.

Currently if you supply Hugin with rotated photos it has no way of
knowing that you have shot a horizontal panorama and not a vertical
one.

--
Bruno

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[Erik Krause]

Bruno Postle wrote:

> >In my opinion straighten should optimize pitch such that the values are
> >more or less equal - at least for horizontal projections like
> >cylindrical or equirect. Don't know how to achieve this...
>
> That what it does, it minimises the variation of roll and pitch.
>
> Currently if you supply Hugin with rotated photos it has no way of
> knowing that you have shot a horizontal panorama and not a vertical
> one.

Usually the panorama has roughly the direction the user intended. Hence
the rotation can be estimated. If hugin minimizes roll and pitch
variation it apparently starts with a zero value for both. If it would
start with the given values it most likely would be successful.

Another hint is the chosen projection. If the user choose cylindrical he
most likely wants a horizontal panorama. Ok, this is no help for the
Assistant which attempts to align the images even before loading.
However, most panoramas are shot with camera in portrait orientation
anyway. So perhaps this could be the default.

In this case I'd consider it better if there was an intermediate manual
step where I could choose image orientation. From a GUI point of view
it's wrong anyway: There is a button named "2. Align", but I don't need
to push it...

best regards
--
Erik Krause
http://www.erik-krause.de

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[Erik Krause]

Bruno Postle wrote:

> >Hugin deals very good with the above mentioned exposure differences once
> >exposure is unlinked on "Camera and Lens" tab. Vignetting, slight white
> >balance differences and further exposure differences where optimized
> >very good.
>
> This shouldn't happen, the EV Exposure values are not linked by
> default here, can you reproduce this?

No, I can't. Must have checked it accidentially.

best regards
--
Erik Krause
http://www.erik-krause.de

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[Bruno Postle]

On Sun 08-Nov-2009 at 15:01 +0100, Erik Krause wrote:
>
>However, most panoramas are shot with camera in portrait orientation
>anyway. So perhaps this could be the default.

This is a problem, although Hugin works ok with photos taken with
the camera rotated 90°, a lot of the workflow assumes that you have
rotated the photos to the right orientation before importing them
into Hugin.

i.e. this is what I do when I shoot portrait, I have a script that
rotates the files with jpegtran before I start.

>In this case I'd consider it better if there was an intermediate manual
>step where I could choose image orientation.

..or at least pull it from the EXIF info, as modern cameras have
orientation sensors.

>From a GUI point of view it's wrong anyway: There is a button named
>"2. Align", but I don't need to push it...

I'm not sure what you mean here.

--
Bruno

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[Erik Krause]

Bruno Postle wrote:

> >In this case I'd consider it better if there was an intermediate manual
> >step where I could choose image orientation.
>
> ..or at least pull it from the EXIF info, as modern cameras have
> orientation sensors.

Orientation sensors cause more confusion than they solve. In a spherical
  the up and down shot have a random orientation. You get mixed
orientation then. And if you shoot RAW it's even worse. Some RAW
converters rotate the image according to the orientation data, some
don't. Could be some rotate and store the unmodified flag in the result
image...

>From a GUI point of view it's wrong anyway: There is a button named
> >"2. Align", but I don't need to push it...
>
> I'm not sure what you mean here.

Alignment is automatic if I press "1. Load images". No need for an
additional button in a straight forward workflow. I assume that I can
press "2. Align" after I added manual CPs, but in this case I can as
well press "Optimize". If the first button would only load images, then
allow for manual rotation, then press Align it would be more logical...

best regards
--
Erik Krause
http://www.erik-krause.de

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[Bruno Postle]

On Sun 08-Nov-2009 at 18:48 +0100, Erik Krause wrote:
>
>Orientation sensors cause more confusion than they solve. In a spherical
>  the up and down shot have a random orientation. You get mixed
>orientation then. And if you shoot RAW it's even worse. Some RAW
>converters rotate the image according to the orientation data, some
>don't. Could be some rotate and store the unmodified flag in the result
>image...

So the current Hugin behaviour of ignoring orientation metadata is
probably the best option.

I just tried stitching a horizontal partial panorama taken in
portrait orientation and Hugin indeed assumes it is a vertical
panorama (which would be correct with different content).

>Alignment is automatic if I press "1. Load images". No need for an
>additional button in a straight forward workflow.

There is an 'automatically align images after loading' option, but
this is disabled by default - It didn't seem like a good idea to
configure Hugin so the first user experience was waiting for Align
to finish.

--
Bruno

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[Erik Krause]

Bruno Postle wrote:

> >Alignment is automatic if I press "1. Load images". No need for an
> >additional button in a straight forward workflow.
>
> There is an 'automatically align images after loading' option, but
> this is disabled by default - It didn't seem like a good idea to
> configure Hugin so the first user experience was waiting for Align
> to finish.

But that's what actually happens if I use the Assistant to load images.
The first action is that hugin starts a CP finder which loads the images
and tries to find control points. After that hugin loads and aligns the
images and shows the result in the fast preview.

best regards
--
Erik Krause
http://www.erik-krause.de

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[Bruno Postle]

On Sun 08-Nov-2009 at 19:27 +0100, Erik Krause wrote:

>Bruno Postle wrote:
>
>> There is an 'automatically align images after loading' option, but
>> this is disabled by default - It didn't seem like a good idea to
>> configure Hugin so the first user experience was waiting for Align
>> to finish.
>
>But that's what actually happens if I use the Assistant to load images.
>The first action is that hugin starts a CP finder which loads the images
>and tries to find control points. After that hugin loads and aligns the
>images and shows the result in the fast preview.

This may be a bug or something gone wrong.  If I 'Load defaults' in
the Assistant preferences, I get 'automatically align images after
loading' unselected.  If I delete my preferences file (unfortunately
this isn't so easy on Windows) then it is unselected when I restart
Hugin.

Does anyone else see aligning-on-load by default?

--
Bruno

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[Bruno Postle]

This is all useful stuff, we could really do with a single place to
collect these issues, maybe the comment pages on the wiki?

On Sun 08-Nov-2009 at 13:31 +0100, Erik Krause wrote:

>
>Setting CPs manually still sucks but this is the case since version 0.1
>or whatever I tried first years ago. If I show the same image in both
>panes hugin correctly assumes that I want to add a vertical CP.
>
>I click the point in the left pane and the other end of the vertical
>line in the right one. If auto fine tune is on hugin takes ages until
>the CP is added and it isn't in the place I choose.
>
>If auto fine tune is off the right pane magnifies as soon as I click but
>there is no point. If I click the point it zooms out again with the
>point set. The magnifying glass shows only if I move the mouse out of
>the pane - I have to click the point again in order to correct it.
>
>Mouse movement when dragging a point is far too rough (in display
>pixels) then, for a fine correction I have to zoom in manually. The
>local magnifier is too small and magnifies too much. I didn't find
>anything in the preferences to change this.
>
>To correct a point I must click on the cross. Clicking the flag creates
>a new point. If zoomed in and the point is not in the middle of the pane
>it scrolls to the middle as soon as I click the point. Sometimes the
>point stays with the mouse pointer and sometimes it moves away with the
>image.
>
>The CP list below doesn't react to the delete key. You need to press the
>Delete with the mouse. The main CP table (F3) however does.

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[Erik Krause]

Bruno Postle wrote:

> This may be a bug or something gone wrong.  If I 'Load defaults' in
> the Assistant preferences, I get 'automatically align images after
> loading' unselected.

I didn't remember there is a preference for that. Since I installed over
an older version it could well be the preferences where taken from that
older one. Sorry!

Load defaults unchecks it of course...

best regards
--
Erik Krause
http://www.erik-krause.de

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