jack error message

[Ilan]

Ardour has a nice error message which comes up at start time when JACK isn't working.
I just had troubles here with starting JACK and Thorn gave me no error.
I discovered the problem only when I tried to activate Patchage.
I tried killing the pulseaudio process, which immediately restarted and that seems to have helped.

Since JACK is so central to the working of Rosegarden, some sort of error message,
similar to Ardour, would be nice.

Ilan

[D. Michael McIntyre]

On Friday 06 November 2009, Ilan wrote:

> Since JACK is so central to the working of Rosegarden, some sort of error
> message, similar to Ardour, would be nice.

Proof positive that you can please some of the people all of the time, but you
can't please all of the people all of the time.

I went to some great lengths to make our warning message less visible, because
most of our users don't actually use the audio features for anything, and
having JACK running is very optional.  All of the startup warning messages
live on a /!\ icon at the bottom right of the screen now.  If you don't see a
little keyboard and a little green waveform symbol and a little hourglass,
something is busted.  Click the /!\ to read what is busted.  You won't have
warnings popping up any longer unless they're critical.
--
D. Michael McIntyre

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[Ilan]

Proof positive that no matter how well one may think one understands something,
it is still possible to miss something very basic.
I was convinced that JACK was an absolute necessity. Now you have shattered
that belief. I am taken aback.
I thought Rosegarden wouldn't start to record without it?? Where did I get that impression?
Maybe because I use Patchage to hook up QSynth and Patchage won't start without JACK.

Where did I get the problem with my laptop being off by 1/2 tone if not from an
inconsistency between 48000 in JACK and 44100 in QSynth? If it isn't being used
for MIDI, why should there be a problem? I'm confused.... I'll go back and read some
more documentation and see where I went wrong.

Ilan

[D. Michael McIntyre]

On Saturday 07 November 2009, Ilan wrote:

> Where did I get the problem with my laptop being off by 1/2 tone if not
> from an inconsistency between 48000 in JACK and 44100 in QSynth? If it isn't
> being used for MIDI, why should there be a problem? I'm confused...

You have that problem due to that inconsistency, but QSynth can function
without JACK if you configure it that way, and Rosegarden can also function
without JACK.  JACK isn't necessarily all that critical.  In my case, for
instance, I have a Roland Sound Canvas, and I don't need QSynth or any of that
other complicated blather.  Getting up and making noise is quite easy for me.  
I am, unfortunately, the rare exception though.

This whole thing is nightmarishly complicated, I'm afraid.
--
D. Michael McIntyre

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[Christopher Cherrett]

I could not imagine running a system without jack. Sounds like a very
narrow scope of use.

-------- Original Message  --------
Subject: Re: [Rosegarden-devel] jack error message
From: D. Michael McIntyre <michael.mcintyre@...>
To: rosegarden-devel@...
Date: 11/07/09 16:28

> On Saturday 07 November 2009, Ilan wrote:
>
>  
>> Where did I get the problem with my laptop being off by 1/2 tone if not
>> from an inconsistency between 48000 in JACK and 44100 in QSynth? If it isn't
>> being used for MIDI, why should there be a problem? I'm confused...
>>    
>
> You have that problem due to that inconsistency, but QSynth can function
> without JACK if you configure it that way, and Rosegarden can also function
> without JACK.  JACK isn't necessarily all that critical.  In my case, for
> instance, I have a Roland Sound Canvas, and I don't need QSynth or any of that
> other complicated blather.  Getting up and making noise is quite easy for me.  
> I am, unfortunately, the rare exception though.
>
> This whole thing is nightmarishly complicated, I'm afraid.
>  

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[Ilan]

Michael,
Even though I obviously missed those icons, I've really got to admit
that they are esthetically very pleasing. Much nicer than error messages
in your face all the time.
I always suffered through the one about snd_rtctimer, which no longer
exists in Ubunutu. There is some basic incompatibility so that it won't
even be in the future. There is rttimer or something similar which is
supposed to replace it - which doesn't yet exist, or at least I can't find it.

I'm wondering if an overhaul of our documentation isn't in place.
We have a beautiful pointer to the subject, but it seems to be out of date.
In my case, there is no easy solution to the problem. My laptop is primarily
a general purpose machine, mostly for running NetBeans.
I'm afraid that I will always have that error about the timing being insufficient.
At least the error message is now on an icon and not in my face.

Ilan

[Julie S]

Dear Christopher Cherrett,

You wrote:
> I could not imagine running a system
> without jack. Sounds like a very
> narrow scope of use.

Well, it may be limiting to you and your work flow.  You have your preferences and have chosen to invest you time and money in certain areas based on criteria you have set for yourself--as it should be.

But as far as not using jack as being limiting--everybody has a different angle on this.

I'm with Michael on this one.  I originally came into linux sound with an external 8 track recorder, and a low end MIDI keyboard.

I still mostly do MIDI on outboard equipment use RG as the sequencer, and multitrack audio recording on external gear. I do final mixing externally as well and then use Audacity to record the final stereo pair.

Jack just never enters the picture for me.

But I'm happy to be part of a project that offers options and not limitations.  I like that we do a bit of everything and try to mindful about the possibilities.

It just fits my style.

RG works with soft synths, jack, audio, sequencing, notation, and MIDI.  Is RG the best at any one of these things? No, but you have to admit, it is pretty cool that we can do it.

It's nice to know that if I want to use jack for low latenceny audio sync, and move to multi track computer recording, or want to focus more on notation, or work with audio segments, or soft synths, I can do it in RG without needing to reach for a new base tool.

Sincerely,
Julie S.



     

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[Christopher Cherrett]

-------- Original Message  --------
Subject: Re: [Rosegarden-devel] jack error message
From: Julie S <msjulie_s@...>
To: rosegarden-devel <rosegarden-devel@...>
Date: 11/08/09 08:35

> Dear Christopher Cherrett,
>
> You wrote:
>  
>> I could not imagine running a system
>> without jack. Sounds like a very
>> narrow scope of use.
>>    
>
> Well, it may be limiting to you and your work flow.  You have your preferences and have chosen to invest you time and money in certain areas based on criteria you have set for yourself--as it should be.
>
> But as far as not using jack as being limiting--everybody has a different angle on this.
>
> I'm with Michael on this one.  I originally came into linux sound with an external 8 track recorder, and a low end MIDI keyboard.
>
> I still mostly do MIDI on outboard equipment use RG as the sequencer, and multitrack audio recording on external gear. I do final mixing externally as well and then use Audacity to record the final stereo pair.
>
> Jack just never enters the picture for me.
>
> But I'm happy to be part of a project that offers options and not limitations.  I like that we do a bit of everything and try to mindful about the possibilities.
>
> It just fits my style.
>
> RG works with soft synths, jack, audio, sequencing, notation, and MIDI.  Is RG the best at any one of these things? No, but you have to admit, it is pretty cool that we can do it.
>
> It's nice to know that if I want to use jack for low latenceny audio sync, and move to multi track computer recording, or want to focus more on notation, or work with audio segments, or soft synths, I can do it in RG without needing to reach for a new base tool.
>
> Sincerely,
> Julie S.
>
>
>
>      
>
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>  

I see where you are coming from but without jack you run into very bad
timing. So the projects must be in a small scope. I know if I run my
setup through alsa, the playhead speeds up and slows down at will. I
simply have so much going on that alsa cannot keep up at all.

Currently I have all my ports remapped by a2jmidid so I am not running
through alsa midi ports at all with oomidi. Instead it remaps on the fly
to jack midi ports.

I believe that even with a hardware setup you need to take the timing in
to account do you not?

I understand your point on options, my point is, making it the best that
I can. Just my opinion but the way I like to run things.

Thanks!

One last thing:
It was interesting trying to get rid of alsa midi because I was not sure
how bad it really was and was it worth all the effort. The funny thing
about it was that you really did not know how bad it was till it was
gone and you experienced the better. It tends to be just something you
live with and think it works great.


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[Julie S]

Dear Christopher Cherret,

You wrote:
> I believe that even with a hardware setup you need to take
> the timing in to account do you not?

Of course you do.  My timing source is my external hardware.  I make RG the slave to my multitrrack Recorder which is the Master MIDI controller.

But you are right, the is a bit of glitch in this setup and RG will run away never to return if I am not careful about how I use my hardware transport vs RG transport--I won't outline the details here.

With that said, it is on my todo list once Thorn gets out the door.  So you say it is Alsa that is the problem? You may be right, but I was going to scrutinizing our MTC code to see if there was anything there causing my issues.

Without my multitrack as master, I have experienced the speed up and slow down that you mentioned. This is a confirmed (but unresolved) bug.

I will definitely keep all of this in mind, late this next summer when I have a break to look at this stuff in depth.  Until then, I'm booked.

Well, unless somebody gets to it first.

Sincerely,
Julie S.



     

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[Christopher Cherrett]

-------- Original Message  --------
Subject: Re: [Rosegarden-devel] jack error message
From: Julie S <msjulie_s@...>
To: rosegarden-devel <rosegarden-devel@...>
Date: 11/08/09 15:07

> Dear Christopher Cherret,
>
> You wrote:
>  
>> I believe that even with a hardware setup you need to take
>> the timing in to account do you not?
>>    
>
> Of course you do.  My timing source is my external hardware.  I make RG the slave to my multitrrack Recorder which is the Master MIDI controller.
>
> But you are right, the is a bit of glitch in this setup and RG will run away never to return if I am not careful about how I use my hardware transport vs RG transport--I won't outline the details here.
>
> With that said, it is on my todo list once Thorn gets out the door.  So you say it is Alsa that is the problem? You may be right, but I was going to scrutinizing our MTC code to see if there was anything there causing my issues.
>
> Without my multitrack as master, I have experienced the speed up and slow down that you mentioned. This is a confirmed (but unresolved) bug.
>
> I will definitely keep all of this in mind, late this next summer when I have a break to look at this stuff in depth.  Until then, I'm booked.
>
> Well, unless somebody gets to it first.
>
> Sincerely,
> Julie S.
>
>
>
>      
>
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>  

Try your setup with a2jmidid. If you run:

a2jmidid -e

It will detect all your hardware as jack midi devices. From there you
can connect them however you like.

I have a hacked version of a2jmidid which leaves off the alsa client id
so that you have a device that is named the same way every time. I then
connect all my ports through jack-connect.

If you would like to experiment let me know and I can walk you through it.

Thanks!


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[Julie S]

Dear Christopher Cherret,

You wrote concerning a2jmidid:
> If you would like to experiment let me know and I can walk
> you through it.

Thank you, but I'm booked solid until just before the Christmas Holidays...then that is family time.  After that I'm booked again until late summer.  My schedule is insane.

I want to do music and RG right now, but taking time out to experiment is not experiment is out of scope for me.

It sounds easy enough, but I've been known to swallow large chunks of time on easy things.

I will keep your offer in mind though.  It definitely is something to try before taking the big debug dive I was planning.

Sincerely,
Julie S.



     

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[D. Michael McIntyre]

On Sunday 08 November 2009, Christopher Cherrett wrote:

> I could not imagine running a system without jack. Sounds like a very
> narrow scope of use.

MIDI sequencers are for receiving and transmitting MIDI events to and from
MIDI hardware at their core.  If you have real MIDI hardware, you don't need
JACK.  You only need JACK for the optional audio features most people scorn in
favor of Ardour anyway.

Now if you don't have real MIDI hardware, you may need JACK if you want to run
more than one audio-producing application at the same time, but that's very
optional.

JACK is great when it works, but JACK is at the mercy of the Linux kernel, and
the Linux kernel would have trouble being more hostile if it were actively
trying to make our lives miserable.
--
D. Michael McIntyre

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[cannam]

On Mon, Nov 9, 2009 at 12:37 AM, D. Michael McIntyre
<michael.mcintyre@...> wrote:
> JACK is great when it works, but JACK is at the mercy of the Linux kernel, and
> the Linux kernel would have trouble being more hostile if it were actively
> trying to make our lives miserable.

To be fair (and/or gloomy), all of this is also true of the ALSA
sequencer layer.


Chris

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